[Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:28 am

objet petit a wrote:@ The Stumps again: I think this is more about what Kant called a priori conditions of thought than the need for an 'understanding'.

Those things are the same consequence in my mind.

objet petit a wrote:@ TheStumps: Could you not give me a class concerning the make-up of languages in the manner you did above...or throughout this entire topic really? Or write some things down or point me to some literature?

I could share what I did to learn I suppose; that's about as good as I could probably get for you.
It takes quite a bit of time honestly.
One thing though; I always approach language like a murder mystery puzzle.
I have easily spent multiples of hours just dissecting one word's arrangement and then the weight of it on the meaning.
I have been doing on/off work on translating Matthew from Greek Papyri (kind of back burner atm due to...well...real life, lol) and there was one verse alone that took nearly a month to figure out what was going on.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "concerning the make-up of languages".
Do you just mean etymological meanings and the implications therein, or do you mean linguistic theory in general?
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:44 pm

TheStumps wrote:Those things are the same consequence in my mind.

If you want I could elaborate in a new topic (which seems justified in my opinion)?

I could share what I did to learn I suppose; that's about as good as I could probably get for you.
It takes quite a bit of time honestly.
One thing though; I always approach language like a murder mystery puzzle.
I have easily spent multiples of hours just dissecting one word's arrangement and then the weight of it on the meaning.
I have been doing on/off work on translating Matthew from Greek Papyri (kind of back burner atm due to...well...real life, lol) and there was one verse alone that took nearly a month to figure out what was going on.

Perhaps it would be nice as a sticky for our new subforum if it would see the light?
:)
Btw: I know that sort of thing can be time consuming. I have taken 3 months for a little work of Jacques Lacan for instance...which was in English (although not my native tongue I feel quite proficient in it).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by, "concerning the make-up of languages".
Do you just mean etymological meanings and the implications therein, or do you mean linguistic theory in general?

I asked my father for the proper word (he is a retired English teacher of the local gymnasium), by he knew of no word for what I mean. However, he suggested 'language structure'. I asked him for the same information by the way, which could make for an interesting comparison. Perhaps a second topic for our linguistic subforum?
:)

edit:
If not too time consuming. Real life comes first!
:)
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby jonquil » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:26 pm

objet petit a wrote:Wittgensteins linguistic turn is described in his 'beetle in a box' thought experiment from which he concludes that we can discuss these matters and learn along the way because everybody has one.


Everyone has a 'beetle in a box'? I wonder where mine is. :-?
"Sur le volcan ne pousse pas l'herbe" (Grass does not grow on a volcano). - Ivor Cutler on his bald pate
User avatar
jonquil
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Greenest city in the world!

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:53 pm

I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours?
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby jonquil » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:22 pm

objet petit a wrote:I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours?

I can't show what I don't have. If I ever had a 'beetle in a box,' it's been lost for so long that I don't remember it. When we were little, we kids used to catch grasshoppers and hornytoads and put them in shoe boxes with grass though.
"Sur le volcan ne pousse pas l'herbe" (Grass does not grow on a volcano). - Ivor Cutler on his bald pate
User avatar
jonquil
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Greenest city in the world!

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:27 pm

I think your beetle looks like a grasshopper that hasn't had lunch since your childhood.
Poor thing.

Do you know the thought-experiment btw?
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby jonquil » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:04 pm

objet petit a wrote:I think your beetle looks like a grasshopper that hasn't had lunch since your childhood.
Poor thing.


Just for that, I think I deserve a good pity party with chocolate cake and ice cream watching an old tearjerker.

objet petit a wrote:Do you know the thought-experiment btw?


Sorry, I don't know what you mean here.
"Sur le volcan ne pousse pas l'herbe" (Grass does not grow on a volcano). - Ivor Cutler on his bald pate
User avatar
jonquil
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Greenest city in the world!

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:09 pm

objet petit a wrote:
TheStumps wrote:Those things are the same consequence in my mind.

If you want I could elaborate in a new topic (which seems justified in my opinion)?

If you want to, go for it.
I'm fine either way.

Perhaps it would be nice as a sticky for our new subforum if it would see the light?
:)
Btw: I know that sort of thing can be time consuming. I have taken 3 months for a little work of Jacques Lacan for instance...which was in English (although not my native tongue I feel quite proficient in it).

Well...I don't think I would make it a sticky...probably just show the way I go about things.

I asked my father for the proper word (he is a retired English teacher of the local gymnasium), by he knew of no word for what I mean.

What is your native tongue?
It might help me understand what you are aiming for if you just said your native tongue (and if you can) place the word as it would be in your native language.
Then I can just look into the word and figure out what English concept you are after possibly.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:01 am

objet petit a wrote:@ Jakob: I disagree. If that were the case, we could not learn anything, ever.

That would be so if to learn is always to know in terms of things. I believe this is a very recent addition to the collection of ways in which organisms can learn to react to stimuli.
" The strong do what they have to do, the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
User avatar
Jakob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4001
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:38 am

TheStumps wrote:Language is powerful philosophy.

There you said it... all philosophers are wimps compared to those people who, for example and in the hypothetical case that this was a somehow conscious act, were the cause of the great vowel shift in english (and completely changed the charge of words, and thereby their meaning), let alone those who invented the noun for what was formerly indicated by a sound referring an an affect.

I greatly admire what you do with your translation of the Bible and find your elaborations on etymology fascinating and in a way calming. Probing the depths of shows how much there actually is alive, beneath the fickle surface of mere word-usage.
" The strong do what they have to do, the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
User avatar
Jakob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4001
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:53 am

jonquil wrote:Great call. Wittgenstein also had some interesting 'ideas' on names. We can try to come to terms with his philosophy regarding names and symbols, truth and falsehood, especially as we would want to be able to apply it to that brand of fiction that deals with uncertain realities and different possibilities (Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness for one).

I think it is in general the art of poetry to use only those words which have intrinsic meaning for us (often because their sound is related to what they convey). Wittgenstein takes the difficult task upon him to define which words have this meanings and which do not - understandably he gets lost due to the limited possibilities of logic to recognize the organic value, the affect of words as they are spoken and seen on a page.

I remember how a very fine scholar of Magical Realism connected Wittgenstein’s tracts on names and symbols with Garcia-Marquez’ book One Hundred Years of Solitude.

I still have to read that book, but I mean to read it in Spanish, and hope to learn the language in the process.
" The strong do what they have to do, the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
User avatar
Jakob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 4001
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby jonquil » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:53 am

Jakob wrote:
jonquil wrote:Great call. Wittgenstein also had some interesting 'ideas' on names. We can try to come to terms with his philosophy regarding names and symbols, truth and falsehood, especially as we would want to be able to apply it to that brand of fiction that deals with uncertain realities and different possibilities (Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness for one).

I think it is in general the art of poetry to use only those words which have intrinsic meaning for us (often because their sound is related to what they convey). Wittgenstein takes the difficult task upon him to define which words have this meanings and which do not - understandably he gets lost due to the limited possibilities of logic to recognize the organic value, the affect of words as they are spoken and seen on a page.


Fortunately, I was introduced to John Ciardi and Jacques Maritain right after college when I took a post bac course on poetry. Ciardi says it's not 'what' a poem means that's important, but rather 'how' a poem means. Once I got that, poetry opened up for me like a beautiful orchid in a luscious rainforest. Maritain's book, Creativity and Intuition, is a wonder of great insight when he says that poetry springs from the preconscious life of the intellect. Brooks and Warren also wrote a very helpful book called Understanding Poetry.

Of course, the artist also needs a heuristic. The best and most important heuristic for a poet, and for any writer really, is to always keep in mind that the power of English is in the image. Anyone who wants to become a good writer should keep a journal of images. Train your mind to the image, to figurative language, and you're halfway there. The rest is form and formatting, rhetoric, and learning the devices. Yesterday, I wrote something on synesthesia. That's a great poetic device. Then there is ekphrasis, which is a poetic response to another work of art, often visual but not always. An example is Auden's Musee des Beaux Arts. Once you think heuristically and practice mastering all kinds of forms and devices, you can just let your imagination run and go places where no one has ever gone before. That's the best part.

Jakob wrote:
jonquil wrote:I remember how a very fine scholar of Magical Realism connected Wittgenstein’s tracts on names and symbols with Garcia-Marquez’ book One Hundred Years of Solitude.
I still have to read that book, but I mean to read it in Spanish, and hope to learn the language in the process.


Good luck with that. I read it in translation, and it was an amazing experience. That was my first intro to Magical Realism, and I became a fan. Luckily, I attended a great lecture/discussion on the book right after reading it, and that really opened it up in a very fine way.
"Sur le volcan ne pousse pas l'herbe" (Grass does not grow on a volcano). - Ivor Cutler on his bald pate
User avatar
jonquil
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Greenest city in the world!

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:22 am

TheStumps wrote:If you want to, go for it.
I'm fine either way.

I would, but the limits of my language are the limits of my world..uuh..posts.. (Wittgenstein). I mean to say that I do not know how this is the same to you, so I do not know how to ask the question.

Well...I don't think I would make it a sticky...probably just show the way I go about things.

It would benefit me. I can also understand time being a factor though. But would you consider it?

What is your native tongue?
It might help me understand what you are aiming for if you just said your native tongue (and if you can) place the word as it would be in your native language.
Then I can just look into the word and figure out what English concept you are after possibly.

I am Dutch, but to tell you the truth I also do not know the word in Dutch. I just mean the way languages use pre- and suf- fixes around words and their meaning. I ask this because I have been wanting to look into this for a few years, but do not know where to look since I know of no term covering it. It is a difficult matter. I would like to learn the general principles governing it and after that I would like to examine this in Greek, Latin (languages) and German(ic languages).

Anyway, if it helps I would call it 'bouwstenen', which translates into 'building-blocks'.

[/sponge]

@ Jakob & Jonquil:
I would like to benefit from your insights in this work and poetry as a whole. Would it be a good idea to start a new topic for this? Perhaps in our -perhaps to be created- linguistic subforum?
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:46 pm

I would, but the limits of my language are the limits of my world..uuh..posts.. (Wittgenstein). I mean to say that I do not know how this is the same to you, so I do not know how to ask the question.

The priori condition is an assertion that comes from internal intuition.
What we strive to understand comes from the same source; a prior to cognitive comprehension internal intuition.
Before we have the understanding, we have the notion, and that notion drives us to want to understand.

Ergo; they are the same to me.

But would you consider it?

Sure.
Even if there's nothing in a thread; there's always a PM.

I ask this because I have been wanting to look into this for a few years, but do not know where to look since I know of no term covering it. It is a difficult matter. I would like to learn the general principles governing it

This changes with each language.
The simplest governing rule is this: there are always the lowest of the foundations, and upon those the other's are laid; and among those, they are mixed with each other to produce a starting matrix that will continue in near fractal arrangement lexically.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:22 pm

@ Jonquil:
http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/pom/p ... nstein.htm
:)

Wittgensteins thought-experiment 'Beetle in a Box'. This refutes most of his Tractatus and reflects what is called his 'Linguistic Turn'.

@TheStumps:
An 'understanding' means to stand under; make something into a rulebase, which is a posteriori. Which was my point. I suppose I should have elaborated. Mis-'understanding'.
:)

The simplest governing rule is this: there are always the lowest of the foundations, and upon those the other's are laid; and among those, they are mixed with each other to produce a starting matrix that will continue in near fractal arrangement lexically.

I know, but do you know where I can find something like that for Greek or Latin?

This changes with each language.

I know, but once having grasped some basic ideas I'll examine several languages.
[/sponge]
:)

Concerning the way you go about things: I think it would make a great topic. I am considering a new topic concerning the comparison of translations (derived from a short publication of Piet Steenbakkers concerning Spinoza's Ethics). I think this just might be a great introduction to the things I could learn from you in this respect. I'll try to whip something up and alert you to it.
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Kriswest » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:42 pm

The language of the body. All oral language stems from our body language and its ability to communicate simple to complex ideas. It uses tones and inflections with movement. If one points at a flower with a smile and a body that seems relaxed and opened what could that mean? If they point at a flower with a disgusted look and a closed stance what could that mean? You could at that point look at them with a questioning look, they then could elaborate either smelling as pleasent or smelling as sneezing. or anything else. Like it makes your stomach feel good or bad. All language starts with the body. It translates incredibly with no oral speech. Trade began this way. It is easier to get an idea across if we are face to face. This type (texting only) of communicating brings about interesting challenges does it not?
Image

I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
User avatar
Kriswest
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 14093
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:26 pm
Location: stuck in permanent maternal mode.

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:14 pm

Although I agree on the interesting challenges, I think Language begins in the mind and not in the body. In order to re-cognize certain facial expressions, we should first have cognized them.
:)
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:16 pm

I know, but do you know where I can find something like that for Greek or Latin?

Do you mean like a page of several/all Greek prefixes and suffixes?
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:22 pm

Well, I did use google and I did find these:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0907013. ... z13ShY4EYO
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library ... 052698.htm

But how do know when to implement and if these are all?
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:23 pm

You should start with some of grammar sites I have cited...that will really help start to clear some of that up.

What I mean is, you can't really just start plopping in prefixes and suffixes like that anymore than you can in English really.
The language doesn't work that way.
It works quite like English.

Run, Ran, Running.
See, Saw, Seeing.
Dream, Dreamed, Dreaming.
etc...

Except in the Greek, it's more like:
To Run, Had Ran, Having Had Ran, Running (infinite), Will Run, (or the obscure; will having ran; pretty rare and usually poor grammar that causes this).
But where each is a separate conjugation rather than using extra words to express this.
Then there's the gender, and casing.
But primarily, you have mood, tense, voice; which present a standard set of conjugations like "To Run, Had Ran, Having Had Ran, Running (infinite), Will Run" (but in Greek).

But those change depending on what you are doing with the word in what context.

It's not just an addition of prefix and suffix to accomplish a prefix/suffix meaning.
It's a prefix (and sometimes suffixes) that are then modified (conjugated or declined) just like those above were to meet the grammatical requirements for the usage.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:27 pm

TheStumps wrote:You should start with some of grammar sites I have cited...that will really help start to clear some of that up.

What I mean is, you can't really just start plopping in prefixes and suffixes like that anymore than you can in English really.
The language doesn't work that way.
It works quite like English.

Run, Ran, Running.
See, Saw, Seeing.
Dream, Dreamed, Dreaming.
etc...

Are conjugations of verbs not similar to pre- and suf- fixes? This in the sense that it changes the meaning by adding something?

Except in the Greek, it's more like:
To Run, Had Ran, Having Had Ran, Running (infinite), Will Run, (or the obscure; will having ran; pretty rare and usually poor grammar that causes this).
But where each is a separate conjugation rather than using extra words to express this.
Then there's the gender, and casing.
But primarily, you have mood, tense, voice; which present a standard set of conjugations like "To Run, Had Ran, Having Had Ran, Running (infinite), Will Run" (but in Greek).

But those change depending on what you are doing with the word in what context.

I'm just glad they hadn't invented time travel back then yet. Then the past future perfect would have really messed with your head:
To be
past future perfect
it will have has been

It boggles the mind!

btw: Do you mean that the conjugations are like the Latin in the sense that all conjugations are made up of one word?

It's not just an addition of prefix and suffix to accomplish a prefix/suffix meaning.
It's a prefix (and sometimes suffixes) that are then modified (conjugated or declined) just like those above were to meet the grammatical requirements for the usage.

Good point. In fact, it was sort of what I meant. Okay, tell you what, I'll just start to examine the whole shebang and ring at your door at the sight of trouble...
:)
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:26 pm

objet petit a wrote:Are conjugations of verbs not similar to pre- and suf- fixes? This in the sense that it changes the meaning by adding something?

Not really...well...that depends who's resource you are looking at.
Some people will list conjugations and declensions as suffixes, but I disagree with doing that as that just creates confusion.

But it's also technically accurate.
For instance, we can find an entry fro "-ing" in the English dictionary; something like "an instance of an action", but it's not something we can then say:
Bat; stick.
So...Bat-ing
Bating, tada!

Wait...no, that would be bating (to bate) and not batTing; and that's because we didn't bother with English grammar which dictates the augmentation of the A; requiring a double consonant when conjugating.
Oh grammar! #-o

This is child's play by comparison to some of the conjugations in the Greek.

I'm just glad they hadn't invented time travel back then yet. Then the past future perfect would have really messed with your head:
To be
past future perfect
it will have has been

It boggles the mind!

btw: Do you mean that the conjugations are like the Latin in the sense that all conjugations are made up of one word?

Quite similarly, yes.
You'll see as you start looking at those grammar sections about them, but it's similar to Latin; different though I think (I'm not as versed on Latin tbh; mostly self-taught Greek).

And yeah...if you ever get something like future past perfect "will have had written"...usually, I try an excercise of writing the concept out one step at a time:

"One day, Roger will tell John that Mark once had written in Roger's journal."
One day/Roger will = will
once had = past (technically 2nd aorist)
written = perfect (completed in finality)

The fun part is when you get what we would call a "perfect", like "written" that is in the imperfect, or the mood is of the subjunctive mood but still renders into what we think of as completed.

So we'll see "written", but we'll have to add words like, "may have had written".
Or, "may become written".

Or the all hellish Optative mood which would render that (even if in the Pluperfect Tense) to mean "hopefully".
Your brains starts craning...how do you "hopefully" have something that is done in the past??

You have to start thinking about the way the authors write their contexts.
An interesting study is the use of the word, "slander" in all forms in the New Testament.
It's interesting to watch how the authors use this term to describe things people do and say, but at the same time as they assert such finality, place the context of such in conditions where there is open debate taking place (like between say...Jesus and Pharisees) about whether there is slander in the comment.

So even though the "jury is still out" inside of the context of the accounted story, because the end result will ultimately end up with the comment being declared as "slander", it is therefore accounted as "slander" even before the story unfolds.

They kind of sucked at retaining suspense. lol

Okay, tell you what, I'll just start to examine the whole shebang and ring at your door at the sight of trouble...

Okiedokie

Here's another idea also...
I could give you a line to translate from Greek into English and we can go through it piece at a time to see how it works out?
That's pretty much what I did, and I can show you how to take it slow and build up from the base on up doing so.

Keep in mind...I'm not advanced enough to write in Greek yet; only read...kind of slowly...through Greek.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:34 pm

First:
For those interested I have created this topic: Utrum in alterum abiturum erat?. It addresses the complication of having several different sources and not knowing which is the original or closest to it.

Second:
I think I understand your point. It isn't just a conjugation. It is also about what somebody is specifically trying to say. A friend of mine mentioned this at some point. I noticed that I am better at intuitively writing things that I am at cognitively deciding what mood I give things. It was quite funny. For a school project he had used (Dutch) posts to determine what kind of sentences individuals construct. I was by far the most intuitive. Anyway, it does complicate matters tremendously. It makes me realize how little I know and how much I should investigate. I am working on logic at the moment, but language is so closely related that it always comes up.

I would like to take you up on your offer sort of though:
Here's another idea also...
I could give you a line to translate from Greek into English and we can go through it piece at a time to see how it works out?
That's pretty much what I did, and I can show you how to take it slow and build up from the base on up doing so.

Keep in mind...I'm not advanced enough to write in Greek yet; only read...kind of slowly...through Greek.

Seeing as I started reading Aristotle's Categoria there just might be some Greek coming up. Perhaps we can examine the terms/sentences/complications together? I'll create topic(s) for it when it presents itself.
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby Jayson » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:02 pm

Either way, I replied to the PM as well, so we can decide that.
Personally; I like introduction to Hellenistic Greek via the Bible simply because the resources for examining it's linguistics are bountiful by comparison to say...finding even an interlinear version of Aristotle's Categoria to work with.
Hell...it would probably be a trick to just track down a solid Greek version online somewhere.
>jaysonthestumps.blogspot.com
>Hebrew, Greek, and more similar resources on ILP

Spiritual: a set of neurological processes dealing with value placement, empathy, and sympathy through the associative truncation of relative identity, and which has reached a value set capable of being described as reverent to the individual, and from which existential experience and reflection is capable explicitly.
User avatar
Jayson
Alaskan Gypsy
 
Posts: 8035
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:53 am
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: [Linguistics, Etymology and evolution]Idea

Postby objet petit a » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:03 pm

TheStumps wrote:Either way, I replied to the PM as well, so we can decide that.
Personally; I like introduction to Hellenistic Greek via the Bible simply because the resources for examining it's linguistics are bountiful by comparison to say...finding even an interlinear version of Aristotle's Categoria to work with.
Hell...it would probably be a trick to just track down a solid Greek version online somewhere.

Good point...
Phase one, man objectifies in two cardinal numbers two collections he has counted; phase two, with these numbers he realizes the act of adding them up.
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
objet petit a
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Borderless

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]