Egypt, Wisconsin, and going forword

[Peter Kropotkin]

It seems to me that we are in challenging times. For those who know history and understand
what has been happening, really happening, the war of extermination of the poor and lower classes
by the rich that has been going on in America since 1981, rayguns election, has finally reached
a breaking point. As Egypt showed and Wisconsin is showing, the lower class are finally, thank god,
fighting back. The last several years of outright attacks on the lower classes, with several areas
being battlegrounds, abortion rights, working benefits, pensions plans, attacks on unions with the latest
attack on government unions, the attempts to lower minimum wage, attempts to eliminate child labor laws,
all attacks on the lowers classes. all that is needed for open warfare to occur is one of two things,
one is a spark something that finally wakes up the lower classes to what is going on and two
a leader that can speak for the lower classes such as a martin luther king.
Now some may accuse me of promoting class warfare but the fact is the war has been going
on for thirty years and its time we fight back.

The America we will see in 2020 will be far different then the world we see now because
of the coming warfare, but we must win this war or we will suffer. Imagine a world without
any worker protection of any kind. Working 7 days a week 15 hours a day will become the norm,
and working for pennies an hour. That is our fate is we don't fight back and win this war.

All that is needed is a spark and a leader and then game on.

Kropotkin

[Smirk]

Speaking as a representative of the upper class, we will beat you. Soundly. It's not even going to be close.

(Take the upper class and lay the points. And bet the under. This one's gonna be over quick.)

[Sean]

It's interesting the interplay of people-business-state-military that is going on in Wisconsin and Egypt. In Egypt the current transitional government is the military. In the context of Egypt however, military rule is something unexpected. I mean, it seems paradoxical that the two demands the protesters successfully put forth were, "End the emergency-status state of martial law" and "Implement a transitional military government (nominal Martial Law)."

What is interesting in Egypt is that much of the production and business there is owned by the military. The military makes all kinds of goods that are totally unrelated to defense, and aren't necessarily what we think of as "high-technology" stuff (like, it would maybe make sense if the military ran telecom stuff). The military makes straight-up consumer items. This is one thing that Mubarak was actually trying to roll back. He was slowly privatizing some military/state owned production. Now that Mubarak is out and the people are having their demands met, some are taking the free-market line, and saying, down with this old state-control regime, we should put all business in private hands, no more military ownership of production. But I mean, there's nothing to stop a new regime from doing this slow privatization in the same way that Mubarak's regime did it, leave high levels of regulation and make sure that the private entities are all elites of your regime's choosing. So, there's actually an argument here that a military owned business-sector might be good for the people, whereas "giving the people the reins of industry" would in a way be a negative outcome for the people themselves.

Here, in Wisconsin, we have a situation of people-business-state-military where the state is threatening the unions with military action if the unions organize against business and government. They claim to be doing this for the sake of the public purse. Both sides invoke "the people," as in, the public purse (state) is the people (public = people), the private businesses (non-state) is the people (because it's not the state), and the unions are the people (because they are fighting for workers, who are not the businesses, and thus are the people).

It makes it so frustrating in both these situations to see how the connotations we have that go along with each of the 4, people-business-state-military confuse things. It's hard to look at Egypt and consider the possibility that the Military could be a positive influence, because in Wisconsin the military are a reprehensible threat of violence. If you manage to do so and sympathize with the Egyptian military's quasi-public business ownership, then you look back at Wisconsin and wish that the state was not able to interfere in people-->business negotiations by calling the National Guard. Words have so much meaning and that is the worst thing about them.

[jonquil]

To put it plain and simple, corporatists in government are giving tax breaks to the rich and to corporations and then using the new lower budget figures to break the unions and stop funding programs like Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and education. They basically want everything privatized so greedy, criminal businesses can skim profits off the backs of what used to be regulated and protected entities.

It's an all out war on the poor, working, and middle class people all right, but I don't think that the rich and the corporate quite realize what this will mean down the line as critical social services and infrastructure are defunded, underfunded, or privatized without oversight or regulation. They think they want this new welfare system for the rich, but the payoff is actually minimal compared with the destruction of services and programs that make society decent and workable. Even cocooned inside their gated enclaves, I don't think they will be able to just ignore, marginalize, or invisibilize the detrimental effects of such backwards thinking; and people are no longer willing to overlook or believe in the lies used to justify the policies that harm so many.

Here's a great article on the Shock Doctrine and why protests matter.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/hea ... ain-why-pr

[Smirk]

Hyperbole.

[jonquil]

Hyperbole.

Care to share and say exactly how, with specifics?

[Smirk]

All out war? All out war??

C'mon.

[Peter Kropotkin]

I am in my 50's and thinking about retirement and trust me brother, my retirement funds might
be able to buy a burger, fries and if lucky, a drink. If millions out there realize that they have
been working their entire lives for about what I have, what do you think they will do?
Sit around and say "well golly, good for the rich to take my 401 pension and buy their 5th house with it"?
Don't think so. I see many disenchanted people every single day that are my age. At some point, they are
are going to realize that they must fight for what they spent their entire live working for, which is a decent
retirement. I and millions others see no point to working if we have to work to our dying day which today
is around 76, around 25 years for me. I may as well go down fighting instead of dying with nothing to show for it
after a lifetime of working.

Kropotkin

[jonquil]

Here's a great article on what's really at stake with all the budget deficit shit created by crazed conservative corporatists on steroids.

http://www.alternet.org/news/149980/wha ... all_about_

The conservative philosophy is rugged individualism on steroids, and we know how well that worked under Hoover. That old Senex determiner of morality has returned with a vengeance. Shades of Calvin and the doctrine of the elect imposed on the predatory business model that is now America. Forget Jesus. Forget caring and sharing. It's me for mine, not all for one together.

And it will destroy us as long as those who have remained so far passive continue to do so... unless we have fallen victim to all that toxic conservative talk that changes brains. At least people in Wisconsin have woken up to its dangers, and one can only hope that the rest of us do too.

[Smirk]

Not to worry.

We need you guys as consumers. We'll make sure you have enough.


(All out war?)

[jonquil]

Not to worry.

We need you guys as consumers. We'll make sure you have enough.

(All out war?)

And with the word "We," you are speaking for whom now? Enquiring minds want to know exactly what kind of alternate universe you live in.

Yes, all out war: on women, people of color, immigrants, seniors, unions, etc. I presume you actually read the two articles I posted about what's going on in this universe.

[Fent]

Not to worry.

We need you guys as consumers. We'll make sure you have enough.

(All out war?)

And with the word "We," you are speaking for whom now? Enquiring minds want to know exactly what kind of alternate universe you live in.

Yes, all out war: on women, people of color, immigrants, seniors, unions, etc. I presume you actually read the two articles I posted about what's going on in this universe.

So everyone except for white men. Let me guess, the evil white man oppresses them all? I'd ask you for some hard evidence as to where women and coloured people are systematically oppressed in Western countries, but, it's pointless. You never reply. You probably don't because if you had to look at your views honestly you'd see that they are full of rubbish.

[Smirk]

It's not just that women and people of color are being oppressed, Fent. It's that guys like me (wealthy white men, to answer your question, jonquil, and, no, I didn't read your articles because I rarely if ever just blindly follow some stranger's links and if you want to have a battle of article links I will list a hundred of them for you) are waging war on them. War!

[Fent]

lol. WAR!!!!

Far leftists have a knack for hyperbole.

Going to work is a war now.

[Peter Kropotkin]

F: lol. WAR!!!!

Far leftists have a knack for hyperbole.

Going to work is a war now.

K: The war has been going on for 30 years now, you are just too naive to notice.
Did you know that the top 500 wealthest people in the world have more wealth then
3 billion of the poorest people in the world combined and those people want more.


Kropotkin

[Fent]

The vast majority of the poor are in countries that are vastly overpopulated. Rural China, rural India, and pretty much the entire African continent. It is their fault for over breeding. If you can't feed it, don't breed it. It is hugely irresponsible to bring someone into this world if you know you can't supply the basics for them.

[Fent]

Where's the cricket chirping emoticon?

[Peter Kropotkin]

Fent":The vast majority of the poor are in countries that are vastly overpopulated. Rural China, rural India, and pretty much the entire African continent. It is their fault for over breeding. If you can't feed it, don't breed it. It is hugely irresponsible to bring someone into this world if you know you can't supply the basics for them.

Bible: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

K: ummm, Be fruitful and multiply, yep. The bible for one example, is a reason that the GOP and the church won't provide birth control for the poor and
fight abortion at every step of the way. Those two institutions are even against discussion of a women's choice. How is that not a war against the poor?
The wealthy have access to birth control and abortions. In 1958, my mother was told to have an abortion and her doctor said it was easy to get
an abortion if you have a private doctor. 1958! many years before it was actually legal in this country. This ongoing war against the poor and women
has lasted long enough. fight back and reclaim your life.

Kropotkin

[jonquil]

It is a war against the poor but also against the middle and working classes of all kinds and stripes. "Conservatives" with control issues just cannot think in terms of human rights and freedoms for anyone who isn't white, male, and rich or else a white, male, rich wannabe. Everyone is meant to be used and exploited for the personal self-interest and wealth of rich corporate elitists and the governments they own.

Oil barons like the Koch Brothers bought up the tea party, bought elections and politicians all over the place, and are now in the process of buying up state services like power plants and state heating under the guise of busting budgets and destroying unions. Wisconsin is just one domino in this scheme.

If the people of Wisconsin are smart, they will institute an immediate recall of as many state GOP legislators as possible and retake their statehouse. If they have to go on a massive statewide strike for as long as it takes, more power to them. The question is: how far are they ready to go? We already know how far the Koch Brothers will go.

[Smirk]

Judas Priest, do you people even know what the word "war" means? Believe me, if and when we decide to go to war with you, you'll know.

In the meantime, when are you coming to work for me, jonquil? What are you qualified to do? I'd like to find a way to exploit you at the most minimal cost to myself. Surely there must be something we can work out.

[Sean]

I just feel bad for the rich people in the 96th percentile of wealth. They probably live in the same towns and neighborhoods as the people in the 97th percentile, but the people in the 97th have like twice as many cars, three times as many mistresses, and exploit the labor of like 10 times as many poor women and people of color. Keeping up with the Joneses is a lot easier if you're like, 30th percentile and the Jones are 35th even. But if you're in the 96th and the Joneses are in the 97th? They're like trying to hide your house behind some manicured shrubs because your place is just a 10 million dollar eyesore instead of a 100 million dollar mansion. You pretty much look like a street urchin in a Charles Dickens novel compared to your neighbors if you're in the 96th percentile. Try getting laid on that. Or better yet, just give up.

Suckers.

[Fent]

Fent":The vast majority of the poor are in countries that are vastly overpopulated. Rural China, rural India, and pretty much the entire African continent. It is their fault for over breeding. If you can't feed it, don't breed it. It is hugely irresponsible to bring someone into this world if you know you can't supply the basics for them.

Bible: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

K: ummm, Be fruitful and multiply, yep. The bible for one example, is a reason that the GOP and the church won't provide birth control for the poor and
fight abortion at every step of the way. Those two institutions are even against discussion of a women's choice. How is that not a war against the poor?
The wealthy have access to birth control and abortions. In 1958, my mother was told to have an abortion and her doctor said it was easy to get
an abortion if you have a private doctor. 1958! many years before it was actually legal in this country. This ongoing war against the poor and women
has lasted long enough. fight back and reclaim your life.

Kropotkin

What's "GOP"?

I don't see how the church is at fault for the overpopulation problem when the church has little to no influence in those overpopulated countries I mentioned. Plus, I still think there's a shifting of responsibilities here. Why aren't individuals responsible for bringing children into a world where they can't provide for them?
My partner and I are purposely delaying having children because we are not currently in a position where we have the time or money for it. But maybe we should just breed 10 kids and blame businesses for our troubles and demand Uganda, Zimbabwe or China give us foreign aid to raise them?

[Fent]

It is a war against the poor but also against the middle and working classes of all kinds and stripes. "Conservatives" with control issues just cannot think in terms of human rights and freedoms for anyone who isn't white, male, and rich or else a white, male, rich wannabe. Everyone is meant to be used and exploited for the personal self-interest and wealth of rich corporate elitists and the governments they own.

.

Isn't it against leftist policy to negatively stereotype races?


But just ignore this post like you do every other time a hard question comes up.

[felix dakat]

What's "GOP"?

GOP=Grand Old Party=The Republican Party.