Excellent points, Sauwelios. You certainly gave it a scholarly edge beyond what I’m capable of.
Actually, I’ve met a few reticent conservatives myself. But once again, being shy or reticent is only a contingent aspect of extroversion. The only necessity is that the orientation be towards the world of objects. Plus that, you have bare in mind that the introvert/extrovert relationship is not one of either/or, it’s more of a spectrum that people can fall at any point of.
And being an introvert myself, on a good night at the bar, I can be as social as anyone. And while I do have a kind of push-pull relationship with the world of objects, I like having things as well. The difference is that I simultaneously tend to have reservations about it as well.
I’m conservative about some issues and liberal about others. I really don’t see how my nature as an introvert decides which belief I will adhere to. I think we all swing both ways depending on need at the time.
Once again:
It’s not an either/or situation.
Even as Jung described it, it’s more of a spectrum within which
we shift from time to time.
Most of us are not an extreme either.
And as Jung pointed out:
all he can provide are models to work from in order to understand things:
it is by no means a mirror to the world.
I dunno. When I look at things like Bitcoins and the Silk Road, I see the Libertarian Dream: to be able to anonymously order drugs on-line and not interact with anyone. That is the view I think introverts tend towards, whereas an extrovert is part of the community regularly interacting with other people so of course they lean left.
Because I’m an extrovert and I’m a leftist. Therefore, both extroverts and leftists are better than introverts and rightists. So, to be extroverted is better than to be introverted. To be leftist is better than to be rightists. From that it follows that good people are like me and be they either extroverted (a good thing) or leftist (a good thing) they are much more likely to be both, because they are good people (people like me) and like good things (things that I like).
That is to say, personal bias tends to shape these sorts of discussions in very silly ways.
It’s all kind of a mixed package:
we can never pin it down to one model.
If we could, it would be lot easier to find a solution.
What I tend to see, especially when I see beer commercials, are extroverts and players who have a lot at stake in the system as is.
I even see them in real life in bars.
And they quite often tend to be Libertarians and Conservatives
I think you’re describing a really weird anomoly.
There are of course, the isolated militia type like Timothy McVeigh. But they’re pretty rare among introverts.
Now what you might be describing is what Bob Altymeyer described in the authoritarian personality, which something quite different than the extroverted authoritarian. It was the dominater type. They’re the ones that come along and give the extroverted authoritarians something to follow -much like Hitler who was a reticent type.
Plus that, I think you failed to recognize the main point about the introvert/extrovert spectrum. It’s not about being shy or social, it’s about an orientation to the world of objects. The person you describe may do so because they’re more into accumulating objects than they are being around other people.
Sorry, bud, but I have to disagree with you on this point.
Nice try though.
I think you missed the point.
My point is that we allign the system such that it agrees with our baises and makes us out to be the hero.
I think I get your point on this. And you may well be right that I did miss your point. But you’ll have to elaborate and refer it somewhat to the history of this particular exchange between us.
Given the decency and intelligence you’ve showed so far, I have to assume that your point warrants some consideration. But you’ll have to elaborate.
Perhaps what merits consideration is politeness.
Be as obtuse and shallow as you wish…but do it nicely.
We’ll all listen…with gaping mouths, as if something awe inspiring is being stated.
The British were masters at this.
They never produced any thinkers of any merit, besides an odd few, but they spoke with such eloquence and civility, and that stiff-upper lip that feigned reasoning, that all stop to listen to them speak.
All feel like something intellectual is being said when they read from a phone-book, or when they recite a verse from Cat with a Hat.
Even an imbecile is raised to the heights of enlightenment, when he is allowed to listen.
All I’m saying is that a conservative introvert is likely to think that all good rightist are introverts and all good introverts are rightists. Likewise, a rightist extrovert is likely to think that all good rightists are extroverts and all good extroverts are conservative. An introverted leftist will think that all good introverts are leftists and all good leftists are introverts. An extroverted leftist will think that all good extroverts are leftists and all good leftists are extroverts.
I’m saying it is a matter of personal bias, more than anything. I’m an extrovert and a raging leftist. Consequently, it follows that I think there is a relationship between extroversion and leftism. I’m guessing you are an introvert and a leftist, so you observe a relationship between introversion and leftism. Likewise, Saully is a known introvert, so it makes sense that he would provide a citation that lauds the introverted world view.
That is all.
Yes, we do have to consider the egocentric dilema involved in this.
But you do make good point,Xunzian. Right on!
But I’m not totally convinced there isn’t a correlation between extroversion and conservatism. For me, it lies in the inherent logic of the the two. But once again, as Jung admitted himself, we’re talking about a mental model and not reality itself. All we can do with it is apply it to reality and see how it works out.
I’m just saying that you are liking introverts with the Aristotelian concept of the virtuous life and extroverts with the Aristotelian concept of the base life. I disagree with such a perception.
Indeed, I’d argue that is why introverts tend to be conservatives because in shunning healthy social behavior they turn everything into a commodity. An extrovert doesn’t find their energy in other people as a function of their perceiving those other people to be a commodity. Commodification represents the worst sort of reactionary conservatism.
No, that was not my intention at all. And I apologize if it came off that way. For one, we’re not talking about an either/or dichotomy here, but rather a spectrum in which most of us tend to lie somewhere in between. Secondly, even with the inherent logic, there is still any number of variation that might occur. For instance, a lot of those who lean toward the extroverted side, may be particularly a-political because a preoccupation with day to day matters. And there may, as well, be introverts who, because their tendency to shun the outer world, might choose, for instance, to become poets or artists with little to no political concern. I consider Rob Zombie a highly introverted artist. And as far as I know, he’s said little to nothing as concerns his political views. And if he did, it wouldn’t surprise me to find out his orientation was more toward a kind of libertarian conservatism due to his flirtations with satanism -which is explicitly libertarian.
Nor would I argue that being an introvert makes one immune to evil. Similar to your argument, I would argue that the kind inwardness at issue here could very well lead to the kind of solipsism typical of serial killers. Especially given the kind of push-pull relationship the introvert has with the world of objects. But no more than I would argue that extroversion equals evil, I certainly wouldn’t argue that introversion automatically assumes solipsism or the potential for serial killing.
Solipsism, due to our egocentric dilemma, and the leap of faith required in assuming the other has a perceiving thing, is a general disposition among introverts and extroverts alike. And this why I have to disagree with your attempt to make comodification the exclusive property of the introvert. It seems to me, given the extrovert’s orientation to the world of objects, they would be equally prone to commodification: the utilization of others as a means to an end. This can certainly be seen in the activities of players (who are clearly extroverted) who tend to see each other as a means to sex.
That said, my primary point was working from the given political positions to the introvert/extrovert spectrum. It just seemed to me to explain the positions that a lot of my conservative friends take: positions that tend to center around material well-being. It also explained their propensity toward popular opinions and assumptions, with what is apparently little relflection, since these opinions and assumptions are decidedly “out there”. Further, it explained to me the tendency of progressives to be more self-deconstructive and self scrutinizing which finds expression in their less assertive manner of stating positions. While this has been their strength in building their arguments, I also think this has been their liabilty in the general political discourse. They’re too hesitant and timid for their own good. I would also argue that this why more introverts turn to art and tend to be more successful at it -not the the so-called leftist conspiracy of the media many conservatives tend to embrace.
The main thing to keep in mind here, Xun, is that you can’t talk about causes, especially in the social sphere, as much as you can contributing factors. No matter what theory we present, it will always be incomplete. And it certainly wasn’t my intention to pose the personality types as causes. I was merely pointing to possible contributing factors.
I can agree with much of what you wrote, I’m just saying that for an extrovert “the world of objects” isn’t about material things, it is about other people. Hence extroversion. By saying that the extrovert begins and ends in the world of objects rather than beginning and ending in the worlds of others I feel you are commodifying other people, which is bad. And also misses the point.
Well, I would argue that the world of objects consists of material things. But on that we agree to disagree. However, to that extent, both introverts and extroverts have to form some kind of relationship with with the material. Also, I would point out that introverts don’t necessarily shun a healthy Social life. It’s usually given their inwardness they’re often not as successful at it. But once again, I do agree there is a solipsistic potential for the introvert. I suppose a lot of difference on this comes from our different experience of the issues at hand.