Moderator: felix dakat
Regarding Jesus and theophobes: Quite.
Though, not directly related, I'm looking into some discourses by Prof. Diarmaid MacCulloch regarding the minute space of time that is so difficult to work with between the Levant and Mediterranean adoptions.
I'm hoping to gather some pieces of information that will fill in the tiny gaps of the timeline (as we know it did not dart from Levant to Mediterranean; the church of Sepulchre quite clearly shows, on its walls, prior to Orthodoxy worshiping groups from other regions).
I remain open to the possibility of Jesus as a Pharisee (a), but do not think it likely.
I do, however, think he was on generally good terms with them. (b)
In regards to the Pharisees, one of the things that I think many people skip over is that you can have contradictory statements about a group in the Hebrew culture in ancient times.
When you see Pharisees in ill favor and in good favor both in the same source, what you are seeing is a division being discussed.
That means some Pharisees leaned one way, and others leaned the other.
There's no real effort in the texts to state "some" from the whole in all cases.
If all Pharisees present at the "moment" were one way, but "all Pharisees" present were not "all Pharisees" in total affiliation, then it would be written just as "the Pharisees". .
This is why you can't just broadly sweep and say that the gospels were later altered to paint the Pharisees as all bad.
That determination would need to be made by the text itself. As in, does the grammar, tone, etc... change in these segments, thereby indicating a change at some point to the text? Considering Luke is so iron clad from beginning to end, the answer for that book is a very robust, "No".
The answer then is the above: that some were in favor and some were not.
I do not see any logic to assigning Jesus the role of a Pharisee, however, as his philosophies are counter-cultural.
Or rather said, not exactly counter in the sense of against, but counter in the sense of a-cultural.
Jesus doesn't show any interest in being anywhere by seat, title, or other indicators that suggest an affiliation to any council.
Instead, he has many views which are in line with the Pharisees IF you are a Pharisee that lacks political ties to power seats which conflict with Jesus' movement.
OK but Maccoby argues that none of their internal disagreements were so great that they wanted to kill over it. Further, as a party, the Pharasees were dissenters against the Roman occupiers. Further still, if you remove the claims to deity on the basis that they were not historical, nothing Jesus claimed would have been blasphemous to the Pharisees. They would have been happy to see a messiah rise up to defet the Romans and as a matter of historical fact did so several times.
33And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Jayson wrote:Yes, the ability to compare in such fashion has presented more problems than the early apologetics probably foresaw.
Much work, such as Martyr's, has gone on to become backbone material inspiring grand conspiracy theories of religious theft by Christianity of other religions.
I think that particular line of thought is a bit off and a gross misunderstanding of cultural anthropology, but yes; the comparison capacity in reflection is at the least provoking to look twice at the texts themselves as well as the purported cultures which they are traditionally attributed.
Jayson wrote:Are you asking if Jesus was accepted into Hellenistic cultures which then eventually saw previous religious mythologies of their cultures as not fake, but of demon (using their understanding of that word and not Medieval understanding) inspirations?
Jayson wrote:I'm confused. Did you switch to a theological discussion?
Because I don'tthink I would respond in the way you seem to be looking for here...I would bring up the origin of the Hebrew culture and how that is reflected in genesis.
Jayson wrote:You are aware of the levant highland familial religion diversity which transferred in time into the eventual body of the Hebrew peoples united religion right?
“My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh"
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