What is the Self, Relative the Self?

[Dglgmut]

An interesting question... What am I, to me? What perspective do I actually have on my self?

So yeah... What is the self, relative the self???

The thing that causes my actions? The thing that experiences?

[Duality]

The self tries to conceptualize the true nature of reality. Fear, uneasiness, jealousy are false conceptions created by the Ego through false ideologies of organic chaos. Once the Ego is destroyed, the true self is left to perform it’s act in a fluid, aesthetic process.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

[Dan~]

I consider the self as a deep rooted mental state.
It's not absolutely necissary, but it's part of our nature.

One may disagree, but i don't think we can destroy our ego.
We can retrain it, so that it doesn't behave like a usual ego anymore,
but it's still there. It's a state of mind which is constant.

The self is one of the foundations of belief and trust.
If we don't believe in ourself, then we don't believe in our experiences
with ourself, which means we would disbelieve in all of our memories,
and we would gradually stop functioning.

Evolution tends to favor activity, and thus it favors belief.
If we were just to sit around and ponder all day, we would be different
than if we were to look for food, and a mate.

In my own writing I classify self and belief as part of the "yesness"
which is like a state where we go with our instincts and feelings,
instead of questioning them or trying to stop them.

[Duality]

One may disagree, but i don't think we can destroy our ego.
We can retrain it, so that it doesn't behave like a usual ego anymore,
but it's still there. It's a state of mind which is constant.

I dont blame you, I didn’t believe it either until I experienced it. Unless we experience a feeling or physical process, there is no way we can understand it.


I finally realized it as I was reading some wikipedias on Aleister Crowley. I found these passages particularly useful to this illumination:

Choronzon is Existential Self at the last gasp...Beyond Choronzon we are no longer our Self. The "personality" on the brink of the Abyss will do anything, say anything and find any excuse to avoid taking this disintegrating step into "non-being."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyss_(Thelema)


10. Now let him consider special problems, such as the Origin of the World, the Origin of Evil, Infinity, the Absolute, the Ego and the non-Ego, Freewill and Destiny, and such others as may attract him.
11. Let him subtly and exactly demonstrate the fallacies of every known solution, and let him seek a true solution by his right Ingenium.
12. In all this let him be guided only by clear reason, and let him forcibly suppress all other qualities such as Intuition, Aspiration, Emotion, and the like.
13. During these practices all forms of Magick Art and Meditation are forbidden to him. It is forbidden to hi to seek any refuge from his intellect.
14. Let then his reason hurl itself again and again against the blank wall of mystery which will confront him.
15. Thus also following is it said, and we deny it not. At last automatically his reason will take up the practice, sua sponte, and he shall have no rest therefrom.
16. Then will all phenomena which present themselves to him appear meaningless and disconnected, and his own Ego will break up into a series of impressions having no relation one with the other, or with any other thing.
17. Let this state then become so acute that it is in truth Insanity, and let this continue until exhaustion.
18. According to a certain deeper tendency of the individual will be the duration of this state.
19. It may end in real insanity, which concludes the activities of the Adept during this present life, or by his rebirth into his own body and mind with the simplicity of a little child.
20. And then shall he find all his faculties unimpaired, yet cleansed in a manner ineffable.
21. And he shall recall the simplicity of the Task of the Adeptus Minor, and apply himself thereto with fresh energy in a more direct manner.
22. And in his great weakness it may be that for awhile the new Will and Aspiration are not puissant, yet being undisturbed by those dead weeds of doubt and reason which he hath uprooted, they grow imperceptibly and easily like a flower.
23. And with the reappearance of the Holy Guardian Angel he may be granted the highest attainments, and be truly fitted for the full experience of the destruction of the Universe. And by the Universe We mean not that petty Universe which the mind of man can conceive, but that which is revealed to his soul in the Samadhi of Atmadarshana.
http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib474.html

This Will does not spring from conscious intent, but from the interplay between the deepest Self and the entire Universe. Thelemites in touch with their True Will are said to have eliminated or bypassed their false desires, conflicts, and habits, and accessed their connection with the divine. Theoretically, at this point, the Thelemite acts in alignment with Nature, just as a stream flows downhill, with neither resistance nor "lust of result."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will

This passage made me realize that it wasn’t my feelings of pain that defined my existence, but the underlying self is that which has true experiences. The torment was simply a manifestation of the Egoic impulse.

[aronofsky40]

The self is my conscious body living through my life experiences.

[anon]

An interesting question... What am I, to me? What perspective do I actually have on my self?

So yeah... What is the self, relative the self???

The thing that causes my actions? The thing that experiences?

I'm more than what I think I am. And less.

[Dglgmut]

The self is one of the foundations of belief and trust.
If we don't believe in ourself, then we don't believe in our experiences
with ourself, which means we would disbelieve in all of our memories,
and we would gradually stop functioning.

Evolution tends to favor activity, and thus it favors belief.
If we were just to sit around and ponder all day, we would be different
than if we were to look for food, and a mate.

I was thinking about memory recently... If you went in to the hospital with a concussion, and before you woke up they had switched out all your memories... You wouldn't be the same person you were... in fact, you may have new, very conflicting personality traits.

We use our brains, our minds, to observe anything... It's a bit awkward using the brain to study the brain itself and the force behind it...

We have to trust our memories for the same reason we have to trust our senses.

[Trevor]

One may disagree, but i don't think we can destroy our ego.
We can retrain it, so that it doesn't behave like a usual ego anymore,
but it's still there. It's a state of mind which is constant.

I dont blame you, I didn’t believe it either until I experienced it. Unless we experience a feeling or physical process, there is no way we can understand it.

Maybe we can't destroy the ego per se, or the natural inclination for it to reappear; but what is destroyed is its present state. Like weeds, you can rip them out but sooner or later they reappear. I think that the 'self' might be too raw a substance, too sensitive to exist alone without ego. The ego serves as a defence. A shell.

[volchok]

In answer to the op, the self is an illusion.

[Dan~]

One may disagree, but i don't think we can destroy our ego.
We can retrain it, so that it doesn't behave like a usual ego anymore,
but it's still there. It's a state of mind which is constant.

I dont blame you, I didn’t believe it either until I experienced it. Unless we experience a feeling or physical process, there is no way we can understand it.


I finally realized it as I was reading some wikipedias on Aleister Crowley. I found these passages particularly useful to this illumination:

Choronzon is Existential Self at the last gasp...Beyond Choronzon we are no longer our Self. The "personality" on the brink of the Abyss will do anything, say anything and find any excuse to avoid taking this disintegrating step into "non-being."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyss_(Thelema)


10. Now let him consider special problems, such as the Origin of the World, the Origin of Evil, Infinity, the Absolute, the Ego and the non-Ego, Freewill and Destiny, and such others as may attract him.
11. Let him subtly and exactly demonstrate the fallacies of every known solution, and let him seek a true solution by his right Ingenium.
12. In all this let him be guided only by clear reason, and let him forcibly suppress all other qualities such as Intuition, Aspiration, Emotion, and the like.
13. During these practices all forms of Magick Art and Meditation are forbidden to him. It is forbidden to hi to seek any refuge from his intellect.
14. Let then his reason hurl itself again and again against the blank wall of mystery which will confront him.
15. Thus also following is it said, and we deny it not. At last automatically his reason will take up the practice, sua sponte, and he shall have no rest therefrom.
16. Then will all phenomena which present themselves to him appear meaningless and disconnected, and his own Ego will break up into a series of impressions having no relation one with the other, or with any other thing.
17. Let this state then become so acute that it is in truth Insanity, and let this continue until exhaustion.
18. According to a certain deeper tendency of the individual will be the duration of this state.
19. It may end in real insanity, which concludes the activities of the Adept during this present life, or by his rebirth into his own body and mind with the simplicity of a little child.
20. And then shall he find all his faculties unimpaired, yet cleansed in a manner ineffable.
21. And he shall recall the simplicity of the Task of the Adeptus Minor, and apply himself thereto with fresh energy in a more direct manner.
22. And in his great weakness it may be that for awhile the new Will and Aspiration are not puissant, yet being undisturbed by those dead weeds of doubt and reason which he hath uprooted, they grow imperceptibly and easily like a flower.
23. And with the reappearance of the Holy Guardian Angel he may be granted the highest attainments, and be truly fitted for the full experience of the destruction of the Universe. And by the Universe We mean not that petty Universe which the mind of man can conceive, but that which is revealed to his soul in the Samadhi of Atmadarshana.
http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib474.html

This Will does not spring from conscious intent, but from the interplay between the deepest Self and the entire Universe. Thelemites in touch with their True Will are said to have eliminated or bypassed their false desires, conflicts, and habits, and accessed their connection with the divine. Theoretically, at this point, the Thelemite acts in alignment with Nature, just as a stream flows downhill, with neither resistance nor "lust of result."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will

This passage made me realize that it wasn’t my feelings of pain that defined my existence, but the underlying self is that which has true experiences. The torment was simply a manifestation of the Egoic impulse.

Well that is interesting. I have read a bit of Crowley myself.
His description of ego dissolving, I consider this possible, BUT, the destroyed ego materials get recycled.
I believe that consciousness always recycles itself, when it tries to change things.
I could be wrong.

[Dan~]

We have to trust our memories for the same reason we have to trust our senses.

Interesting. I've also noticed that it is on the verge of mandatory in a regular human life,
to believe in our experiences and our senses. This is why most people are realists.
It might not be mandator, but for a common person, it's just a given.

[Dglgmut]

It IS mandatory.

If people didn't trust their senses, at least to some degree, then they wouldn't initiate any action. Some people may trust their senses more than others, but everyone must believe that there are forces out there that control what we cannot (conscious or not).

To Volchok: And who is the self eluding?

[Duality]

Maybe we can't destroy the ego per se, or the natural inclination for it to reappear; but what is destroyed is its present state. Like weeds, you can rip them out but sooner or later they reappear. I think that the 'self' might be too raw a substance, too sensitive to exist alone without ego. The ego serves as a defence. A shell.

Once the forces of the abyss are annihilated, the self is flooded over with a feeling of deep ecstasy. This euphoria is the sensation of direct communion with the infinite. Every action we perform afterwards is likewise satisfying, as a pure manifestation of our true selves.

[Philosopher8659]

An interesting question... What am I, to me? What perspective do I actually have on my self?

So yeah... What is the self, relative the self???

The thing that causes my actions? The thing that experiences?

Quite frankly, since, as Aristotle pointed out, we only have two results assertion and denial, or again, equal and not equal, or again, the point is that which has no part, or again, ect., I don't know of any philosopher who, as a philosopher, believes that relation to self is admissible. That would put one in the category of Aristotles Ceaser Salad.

Even though I often tell people that I am looking for myself, if they have seen me, let me know, I think most of them know I am joking.

[finishedman]

Maybe we can't destroy the ego per se, or the natural inclination for it to reappear; but what is destroyed is its present state. Like weeds, you can rip them out but sooner or later they reappear. I think that the 'self' might be too raw a substance, too sensitive to exist alone without ego. The ego serves as a defence. A shell.

Yes. We want to believe there is a ‘person’ there controlling the life. It’s like a separate ‘self’ that has overwhelmingly set itself up with an existence parallel to life. By ‘life’ I don’t mean something that metaphysical thought says it is. I’m referring to the physical life of the body and it’s sensitivity.

Once the forces of the abyss are annihilated, the self is flooded over with a feeling of deep ecstasy. This euphoria is the sensation of direct communion with the infinite. Every action we perform afterwards is likewise satisfying, as a pure manifestation of our true selves.

The problem here is people want to know how to do the annihilating. Some teachers say meditate or do this or that which in all cases requires thought to be employed. The protective nature of thought, in the sense of self, is certainly the enemy in your above quote; it causes the shell, the encasement. Thought, the instrument, cannot be used to get out of the problem it created. In that process it will only create more thought induced states of mind. The process poses itself as the essential component of a self there.

[Duality]

Once the forces of the abyss are annihilated, the self is flooded over with a feeling of deep ecstasy. This euphoria is the sensation of direct communion with the infinite. Every action we perform afterwards is likewise satisfying, as a pure manifestation of our true selves.

The problem here is people want to know how to do the annihilating. Some teachers say meditate or do this or that which in all cases requires thought to be employed. The protective nature of thought, in the sense of self, is certainly the enemy in your above quote; it causes the shell, the encasement. Thought, the instrument, cannot be used to get out of the problem it created. In that process it will only create more thought induced states of mind. The process poses itself as the essential component of a self there.

Intellect is the problem, but it is also part of the solution. It must be used to smash against the wall of the abyss until the ego self is splintered into dissarray.