virgin births

[felix dakat]

This being the day of the year we traditionally celebrate the virgin birth of Jesus, I thought it might be interesting to compare the virgin birth of Jesus with other virgin births claimed for the heroes of antiquity.

To begin, here is the Christian Father Justin Martyr's explanation of the virgin births of the Greek heros for consideration:

"It having reached the Devil's ears that the prophets had foretold the coming of Christ (the Son of God), he set the Heathen Poets to bring forward a great many who should be called the sons of Jove. The Devil laying his scheme in this, to get men to imagine that the true history of Christ was of the same character as the prodigious fables related of the sons of Jove."

Justin Martyr (A. D. 140), in his Apology to the Emperor Adrian, says: "By declaring the Logos, the first-begotten of God, our Master, Jesus Christ, to be born of a virgin, without any human mixture, we (Christians) say no more in this than what you (Pagans) say of those whom you style the Sons of Jove. For you need not be told what a parcel of sons the writers most in vogue among you assign to Jove. . . ."

So, according to Church father Justin Martyr the issue of virgin birth cut two ways. On one hand, all the other virgin births were Satanic lies to discredit the virgin birth of Jesus. On the other hand, he argued that the virgin birth of Jesus should cause no offense to Romans since Christians weren't claiming anything of Jesus that the Romans did not claim for their heroes.

[felix dakat]

I'll cite some examples of virgin births beginning with Greek mythology to show how they parallel the stories of the virgin birth of Jesus. This Jupiter was the supreme god of the Roman pagans. In the words of Orpheus: "Jupiter is omnipotent; the first and the last, the head and the midst; Jupiter, the giver of all things, the foundation of the earth, and the starry heavens." Hercules, Bacchus, Mercury, and Apollo were the sons of Jupiter by mortal mothers, Alcmene, Queen of Thebes, Semele, daughter of Kadmus, King of Thebes, Maia, daughter of Atlas, and, Latona respectively. Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, was sons of Mars the god of war by a virgin mortal mother, Rhea-Sylvia. Alexander the Great, King of Macedonia was believed to have been the son of Jupiter by a mortal mother, Olympias. Plato, was believed to have been the son of God by a virgin named Perictione. Aris, the reputed father of Plato, was said to be admonished in a dream to respect the person of his wife until after the birth of the child of which she was then pregnant by a god in a story that predates the virgin birth stories of Jesus.

[James S Saint]

A) Do you have any idea what a scriptural virgin birth actually is?
B) Did any of those others claim the virgin birth of the Hebrew God?

[felix dakat]

A) Do you have any idea what a scriptural virgin birth actually is?
B) Did any of those others claim the virgin birth of the Hebrew God?

A) The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and remained a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.

B) I listed the gods by name in the previous post. But, I'm just getting started. According to ancient world mythologies gods impregnated human females frequently.

[kuze420]

the virgin births derive from the seemingly seedless birth of the mushroom. these mushrooms were worshiped as deities such as jesus christ, krishna, and mithra(i think).

[felix dakat]

the virgin births derive from the seemingly seedless birth of the mushroom. these mushrooms were worshiped as deities such as jesus christ, krishna, and mithra(i think).

That seems highly unlikely to me. Can you back up your claim with documentation?

[anon]

Myths about virgin births are colorful and interesting to me, but though there is inspirational value in some positive ways, they're mostly just entertainment unless I make an effort to relate the stories back to the reality I must relate to every day of my life. It's possible to see all phenomena as primordially pure. It's possible overcome the way of thinking that separates innocence from experience. Innocence is always accessible, no matter what experiences we've undergone. It's not a one way street. It's not even a two way street. Innocence is like the air we breathe - it's eternally right here.

[felix dakat]

Myths about virgin births are colorful and interesting to me, but though there is inspirational value in some positive ways, they're mostly just entertainment unless I make an effort to relate the stories back to the reality I must relate to every day of my life. It's possible to see all phenomena as primordially pure. It's possible overcome the way of thinking that separates innocence from experience. Innocence is always accessible, no matter what experiences we've undergone. It's not a one way street. It's not even a two way street. Innocence is like the air we breathe - it's eternally right here.

Thanks for that refreshing thought anon.

[James S Saint]

A) Do you have any idea what a scriptural virgin birth actually is?
B) Did any of those others claim the virgin birth of the Hebrew God?

A) The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and remained a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.

In that case, there was obviously only one of them.

B) I listed the gods by name in the previous post. But, I'm just getting started. According to ancient world mythologies gods impregnated human females frequently.

So I take it that the answer to both questions was, "no".

[felix dakat]

A) Do you have any idea what a scriptural virgin birth actually is?
B) Did any of those others claim the virgin birth of the Hebrew God?

A) The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and remained a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.

In that case, there was obviously only one of them.

B) I listed the gods by name in the previous post. But, I'm just getting started. According to ancient world mythologies gods impregnated human females frequently.

So I take it that the answer to both questions was, "no".

Apparently you didn't like my answers. But instead of supplying a counter argument,in your customary fashion, you chose to play baiting tactics, guessing games and to claim special knowledge. If you have an argument, present it. I'm open to new information if you have any.

But historical sources show that divine births were common in the ancient world. They were claimed for heroes,religious figures, kings and emperors throughout the world. So let us ask ourselves why. I suppose to elevate and set the figure above common humanity. That would be particularly necessary for those that believe that there is something sinful about human flesh that is transmitted via the sperm of a human male.

The virgin birth story created a problem for orthodox Christian theology because it opened Jesus of Nazareth to the Docetic heresy that Jesus only appeared to be a true human being but in fact was not because he was actually divine.

St.Paul never mentions the virgin birth so apparently the teaching came after him. Mark, thought by most historians to be the earliest written Gospel, does not mention it either.

The Gospel of John which is thought to be the last of the gospels attempt to counter the Docetic problem by claiming the Jesus was pre-existent but eschewing the virgin birth story. In John 1:45 Philip finds Nathanael and says to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets wrote: Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." In John 6:42 the local people say, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, `I came down from Heaven'?" In neither case does John correct the speaker for the record.

[James S Saint]

It is easy for you to complain about and criticize something when you don't actually know what the words mean, but it makes it much harder to learn anything.

Concerning Scriptures (regardless of the religion), the bold is what is applicable..

vir·gin (vûrjn)
n.
1. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
2. A chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden.
3. An unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity.
4. Virgin The Virgin Mary.
5. Zoology A female insect or other arthropod that produces fertile eggs without copulating.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or being a virgin; chaste.
2. Being in a pure or natural state; unsullied: virgin snow.
3. Unused, uncultivated, or unexplored: virgin territory.
4. Existing in native or raw form; not processed or refined.
5. Happening for the first time; initial.
6. Obtained directly from the first pressing: virgin olive oil.
7. Zoology Producing fertile eggs without copulating.

Everything in Scriptures, regardless whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever is about the spirit of the event or the people involved. They are given names to match their spirit such as "Ahdam" and "Christ".

Jesus specifically stated, "I was in the very beginning", clearly indicating that he was talking about the spirit that he represented, not any physical body. He IS his spirit, just as are you in such a language. But a birth represents a coming into the physical form, to Earth, visible.

Thus a "virgin birth", in every historical religion: Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Jewish, and so on, ALL mean that the spirit (the effort and idea) has been born into a manifest body, (aka "Man").

The Jews had claimed that Israel was the first born Son of God and thus also a virgin birth (something new, not of those who would have fathered it into their own image).

Virgin means unlike any before it, "original", "new", "untainted", and not related to the fathers who would have made it into their own likeness. Joseph did not require of Mary that she do and believe only in what he believed, thus she raised Jesus without Josephs influence. Thus he was not the Father of Jesus' spirit.

The spirit of Jesus did not come from Joseph, but from the sway of Reality combined with Mary = God the Father and Mary the Mother, thus "Divine". And because that spirit was untainted by prior convictions and presumptions, it was a "virgin birth" (divine or not).

[James S Saint]

You claim I don't know the meaning of the stories and then you go off on this circuitous heterodox rationalization. OK so unlike Christian fundamentalists, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion, and Lutheran churches you deny the literal meaning of the virgin birth stories in Matthew and Luke. It's one thing to be unable to accept the literal meaning of the story and therefore to view it as a spiritual metaphor of some kind. But your claim that your spiritual reading was the original intent of the writers is baseless.

..again the pot calling to snow black..


Your effort to persuade and spread your hatred amounts to, "Because the least educated and conspicuously erroneous interpretation is doubtful, the religion, specifically CHRISTIANS are ALL WRONG!"

Metaphysics happens to be a specialty of mine and all of the religions happen to be steeped in metaphysics.
Congrats on your moderator status, but you're still no match for me, son.

[felix dakat]

You claim I don't know the meaning of the stories and then you go off on this circuitous heterodox rationalization. OK so unlike Christian fundamentalists, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion, and Lutheran churches you deny the literal meaning of the virgin birth stories in Matthew and Luke. It's one thing to be unable to accept the literal meaning of the story and therefore to view it as a spiritual metaphor of some kind. But your claim that your spiritual reading was the original intent of the writers is baseless.

..again the pot calling to snow black..


Your effort to persuade and spread your hatred amounts to, "Because the least educated and conspicuously erroneous interpretation is doubtful, the religion, specifically CHRISTIANS are ALL WRONG!"

Metaphysics happens to be a specialty of mine and all of the religions happen to be steeped in metaphysics.
Congrats on your moderator status, but you're still no match for me, son.

1)Hatred? What are you talking about? I am examining the phenomena of virgin birth as it appears in world mythology and taking a position regarding about why the teaching may have arisen. I am open to considering other positions. Justin Martyr and some Christians today believe that every virgin birth beside that of Jesus was a demonic counterfeit. That explanation would seem to ignore the obvious and simpler explanation is that teaching has similar motivation in every case.

2)As far as your metaphysical proof of God, you are very guarded about presenting it for some reason. As I recall it boils down to the assertion that God is self evident. Now 2+2=4 is self evident to everyone who knows what the numbers mean. The same cannot be said of God because God is not self evident to people who know what the word God means.

Beyond that, I haven't seen any evidence that you have a basis for your high self esteem either. So, you have struck out here. Not that anyone is keeping score.

[James S Saint]

Beyond that, I haven't seen any evidence that you have a basis for your high self esteem either. So, you have struck out here. Not that anyone is keeping score.

All your wishful thinking.

I don't bother with you personally concerning that "proof of God" debate merely because when I see someone intent merely on playing semantic games with no real interest in truth, I don't bother forcing it down their throat. It isn't my job to see that you or anyone believes in anything one way or another. If you are not interested, which you have shown that you are not, I let you off the hook to go swim your channels. I haven't "struck out" on anything. You mis-presume my aim. But that doesn't mean that I won't step in a defend an issue that you have skewed to your own liking for the purpose of your own propaganda.

If you are going to critic a subject, especially an ancient text, learn the language use first (or get embarrassed again).

[felix dakat]

I don't bother with you personally concerning that "proof of God" debate merely because when I see someone intent merely on playing semantic games with no real interest in truth, I don't bother forcing it down their throat. It isn't my job to see that you or anyone believes in anything one way or another. If you are not interested, which you have shown that you are not, I let you off the hook to go swim your channels. I haven't "struck out" on anything. You mis-presume my aim. But that doesn't mean that I won't step in a defend an issue that you have skewed to your own liking for the purpose of your own propaganda.

If you are going to critic a subject, especially an ancient text, learn the language use first (or get embarrassed again).

Oh but I am interested or I wouldn't be here. Your interpretation of the virgin birth of Christ negates the literal meaning. Are you aware that your interpretation would be unacceptable to a fundamentalist or orthodox Christian? My analysis accepts the literal meaning and suggests that it is doubtful because virgin birth legends were a common way of idealizing heroes in the ancient world. For that reason, my observation would be unacceptable to the orthodox or fundamentalist Christian as well. But I don't think they could fail to see that the virgin birth stories of Jesus parallels the other virgin birth stories. I don't understand how you can deny the family resemblance between Jesus' and the other divine births. And there are many more.

[felix dakat]

Here are some more divine virgin birth stories from Asia and Egypt:


Krishna was born of a chaste virgin, called Devaki, who, on account of her purity, was selected to become the "mother of God." According to the "BHAGAVAT POORAUN," Vishnu said: "I will become incarnate at Mathura in the house of Yadu, and will issue forth to mortal birth from the womb of Devaki. . . . It is time I should display my power, and relieve the oppressed earth from its load." [114:1] Then a chorus of angels exclaimed: "In the delivery of this favored woman, all nature shall have cause to exult." [114:2] In the sacred book of the Hindus, called "Vishnu Purana," we read as follows: "Eulogized by the gods, Devaki bore in her womb the lotus-eyed deity, the protector of the world. . . . "No person could bear to gaze upon Devaki, from the light that invested her...

Doane, T. W. (2011-03-24). Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions Being a Comparison of the Old and New Testament Myths and Miracles with those of the Heathen Nations ... Considering also their Origin and Meaning (Kindle Locations 3674-3683). Kindle Edition.

The next in importance among the God-begotten and Virgin-born Saviours of India, is Buddha [115:3] who was born of the Virgin Maya or Mary. He in mercy left Paradise, and came down to earth because he was filled with compassion for the sins and miseries of mankind. He sought to lead them into better paths, and took their sufferings upon himself, that he might expiate their crimes, and mitigate the punishment they must otherwise inevitably undergo. [115:4] According to the Fo-pen-hing, [115:5] when Buddha was about to descend from heaven, to be born into the world, the angels in heaven, calling to the inhabitants of the earth, said: "Ye mortals! adorn your earth! for Bôdhisatwa, the great Mahâsatwa, not long hence shall descend from Tusita to be born amongst you! make ready and prepare! Buddha is about to descend and be born!" [115:6]

Doane, T. W. (2011-03-24). Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions Being a Comparison of the Old and New Testament Myths and Miracles with those of the Heathen Nations ... Considering also their Origin and Meaning (Kindle Locations 3713-3714). Kindle Edition.


The incarnation of Gautama Buddha is recorded to have been brought about by the descent of the divine power called The "Holy Ghost" upon the Virgin Maya. [116:6] This Holy Ghost, or Spirit, descended in the form of a white elephant. The Tikas explain this as indicating power and wisdom. [117:1]

Doane, T. W. (2011-03-24). Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions Being a Comparison of the Old and New Testament Myths and Miracles with those of the Heathen Nations ... Considering also their Origin and Meaning (Kindle Locations 3737-3741). Kindle Edition.




Lao-tzu, who is said to have been born in the third year of the emperor Ting-wang, of the Chow dynasty (604 B. C.), was another miraculously-born man. He acquired great reputation for sanctity, and marvelous stories were told of his birth. It was said that he had existed from all eternity; that he had descended on earth and was born of a virgin, black in complexion, described "marvelous and beautiful as jasper."

Doane, T. W. (2011-03-24). Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions Being a Comparison of the Old and New Testament Myths and Miracles with those of the Heathen Nations ... Considering also their Origin and Meaning (Kindle Locations 3804-3807). Kindle Edition.


If from China we should turn to Egypt we would find that, for ages before the time of Jesus of Nazareth, the mediating deity, born of a virgin, and without a worldly father, was a portion of the Egyptian belief. [122:1] Horus, who had the epithet of "Saviour," was born of the virgin Isis. "His birth was one of the greatest Mysteries of the Egyptian religion. Pictures representing it appear on the walls of temples." [122:2] He is "the second emanation of Amon, the son whom he begot." [122:3] Egyptian monuments represent the infant Saviour in the arms of his virgin mother, or sitting on her knee. [122:4]

Doane, T. W. (2011-03-24). Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions Being a Comparison of the Old and New Testament Myths and Miracles with those of the Heathen Nations ... Considering also their Origin and Meaning (Kindle Locations 3845-3852). Kindle Edition.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

What is it about these crazy gods and their obsession with hymen skin? And what about a vagina draws them to come squeezing out of one ... and one with a hymen? Does all this squeezing, out the vaginal canal, and passing thru hymen skin, make them more of a god?

Aren't there many, many, more majestic ways for gods to become human? If you ask me, any god that comes out a vagina is to silly to qualify as a legitimate god.

[James S Saint]

Oh but I am interested or I wouldn't be here. Your interpretation of the virgin birth of Christ negates the literal meaning. Are you aware that your interpretation would be unacceptable to a fundamentalist or orthodox Christian? My analysis accepts the literal meaning and suggests that it is doubtful because virgin birth legends were a common way of idealizing heroes in the ancient world. For that reason, my observation would be unacceptable to the orthodox or fundamentalist Christian as well. But I don't think they could fail to see that the virgin birth stories of Jesus parallels the other virgin birth stories. I don't understand how you can deny the family resemblance between Jesus' and the other divine births. And there are many more.

A) "I know that man is lying because I can show you 20 people who have lied to me and he sounds just like them."
B) "Your argument might make more sense, but mine is more popular."

Also when I see that I am but inspiring a man to lie to and about himself, I leave him to his fate rather than further reinforce his fear of truth or his lust for deception.

[felix dakat]

What is it about these crazy gods and their obsession with hymen skin? And what about a vagina draws them to come squeezing out of one ... and one with a hymen? Does all this squeezing, out the vaginal canal, and passing thru hymen skin, make them more of a god?

Aren't there many, many, more majestic ways for gods to become human? If you ask me, any god that comes out a vagina is to silly to qualify as a legitimate god.

Where I come from those questions would be considered obscene blasphemes. One would think you had been reading too much Mark Twain. Your questions are rhetorical... right?

[kuze420]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

[James S Saint]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

Just FYI...

Whoever wrote that book you are siting displays serious lack of education in his attempt to promote sex and drugs. I didn't read further to see if he also promoted rock-n-roll, but it wouldn't surprise me. Such people are wittingly or not used to inspire willful corruption and rebellion thinking that they are just in undermining an establishment. Such people are usually the puppets of some socialist corruption campaign against another group. "Almha" means "nurturing vessel of the spirit" or in more technical terms, "incubator" and thus an obvious association with the female womb (ie "young virgin woman").

[kuze420]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

Just FYI...

Whoever wrote that book you are siting displays serious lack of education in his attempt to promote sex and drugs. I didn't read further to see if he also promoted rock-n-roll, but it wouldn't surprise me. Such people are wittingly or not used to inspire willful corruption and rebellion thinking that they are just in undermining an establishment. Such people are usually the puppets of some socialist corruption campaign against another group. "Almha" means "nurturing vessel of the spirit" or in more technical terms, "incubator" and thus an obvious association with the female womb (ie "young virgin woman").

Some of the information can come from such sources but not all of them. Sex and drugs are part of our history. Don't get it twisted. I have in my own home two persian artifacts that are mushroom symbolism. One being the cup of jamshid. I know for myself, but there are many sketchy references about this subject. I was only posting out of nothing else. I have noticed defending this stance on religion is not an easy task and it's late. I'm not up for it, but try to do some research for yourself.

[felix dakat]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

No. It documents that someone wrote a book propounding a doubtful theory that is quoted in another book making spurious claims. But the passage you sighted doesn't make the claim you did.

[kuze420]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

No. It documents that someone wrote a book propounding a doubtful theory that is quoted in another book making spurious claims. But the passage you sighted doesn't make the claim you did.

You probably also believe John Allegro is a schmuck. Too bad. He never realized the importance of cubes but he was on the right track.

[felix dakat]

I hope this suffices some evidence from documentation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSL9jRTzXx4C&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=virgin+births+mushrooms&source=bl&ots=Tqfq1meNcs&sig=GqtvrQxIskTNwXTDXCyg0KWx8SU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMj6TtWvMuOlsAKUpqTSAQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=virgin%20births%20mushrooms&f=false

No. It documents that someone wrote a book propounding a doubtful theory that is quoted in another book making spurious claims. But the passage you sighted doesn't make the claim you did.

You probably also believe John Allegro is a schmuck. Too bad. He never realized the importance of cubes but he was on the right track.

Though I am fond of yiddish, I try to refrain from summary judgments like that on people as well as name calling. Besides, your link to the book was my introduction to Allegro so I really know little about him.