Is there an alternative to existing aside from not existing

[volchok]

If it makes you happy, the atoms that that compose your body will form something else after you die.
Does that mean you still exist? Not really.
I don't even think you exist right now but that's another debate.

[kandee]

so what you guys are saying is aside from existence and non-existence theres nothing else that we know of and can't be?

[James S Saint]

so what you guys are saying is aside from existence and non-existence theres nothing else that we know of and can't be?

"to be" MEANS "to exist", so yeah. If it is "to be", then it is "to exist". Or if it "is", then it exists.

[kandee]

I dunno. I guess no one else thinks about this. I'm just getting tired of existence and non-existence seems pretty lame too. All I want is there to be something else. An infinite amount of possibilities. A place thats not even a place.It's something we have never heard of. No air. No humans. No breathing. No nature. No universe. No physics.No philosophy. No language. No concepts. No thinking. But still...something.

You might try living, rather than simply existing. There are an infinite amount of possibilities in living--but you'd still need everything you'd like to deny. I don't really know how you can deny being human and alive--nor do I understand why.

The only thing I can think of that comes close to what you want is death.

Yeah, but death is like..boring. You just rot in a grave and do nothing. Shit, you can't even think anymore. What fun is that? Not like life is any better though...I hate everything. I really do. I hate life. I hate death. I have existing. I hate the idea of not existing. So I yearn for some kind of alternative when I already know that in the back of my mind there isn't any, and if there was, we wouldn't be able to imagine it due to our limited comprehension. I was just looking for some kind of reassurance or something. Ok, this went from philosophy to me whining. yikes.

[kandee]

so what you guys are saying is aside from existence and non-existence theres nothing else that we know of and can't be?

"to be" MEANS "to exist", so yeah. If it is "to be", then it is "to exist". Or if it "is", then it exists.

see. this is what I mean. you're not thinking outside the box though. I can't describe it in human words because those words and this understanding wouldn't be available in the substitution. there would be no "being" or "existing". dgifsdigohsiogh. i give up.

like it makes sense in my head, but I can't word it.

Lets try this: ok, right now there's 2 things. existence. non-existence. within existence theres reality, life, the universe, humans, ect. non-existence...basically there's nothing. this is all we know. to exist or to not exist. now what im saying is there is something else that has nothing to do with existing or not existing. just something else.

[anon]

Why give up?

[kandee]

Why give up?

Because I don't think anyone else is gonna understand.

[anon]

Why give up?

Because I don't think anyone else is gonna understand.

Have you ever neither existed nor not existed? Have you ever had a small glimpse of such a thing?

Odd as it may seem, I am my remembering self, and the experiencing self, who does my living, is like a stranger to me.

Do you exist right now? How can you tell?

[Duality]

Circular reasoning, or in other words, paradoxical thinking, is a type of formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. For example:

"Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this."

Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition — "politicians are untrustworthy" — in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself.

Circular reasoning is different from the informal logical fallacy "begging the question", as it is fallacious due to a flawed logical structure and not the individual falsity of an unstated hidden co-premise as begging the question is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_argument

[kandee]

confused. again.

[Arcturus Descending]

James S. Saint...

To exist merely means to "have affect". If you have affect, you exist. Non-existing means having absolutely no affect. If nothing is affecting anything in your imagined world, nothing is happening. There can be no life, no changing whatsoever, no activity. Thus something either exists or it doesn't.

Merely?!! To exist also means to be affected by...something...anything. Aside from affecting others, which is also paramount for both yourself and the other, if we are not affected or moved by our own existence, by the internal or the external, then we don't much exist, in my book, ...we are simply like zombies - living in an existing but a non-existent world, at one and the same time.

Great to have you here again.

[James S Saint]

James S. Saint...

To exist merely means to "have affect". If you have affect, you exist. Non-existing means having absolutely no affect. If nothing is affecting anything in your imagined world, nothing is happening. There can be no life, no changing whatsoever, no activity. Thus something either exists or it doesn't.

Merely?!! To exist also means to be affected by...something...anything. Aside from affecting others, which is also paramount for both yourself and the other, if we are not affected or moved by our own existence, by the internal or the external, then we don't much exist, in my book, ...we are simply like zombies - living in an existing but a non-existent world, at one and the same time.

Great to have you here again.

Yes, one thing cannot exist to another without the other also existing to it; you can't have affect without being affected (despite the God wannabes who try).

And thks.. good to be back for a while and see you here.

[raddem-bicol]

I dunno. I guess no one else thinks about this. I'm just getting tired of existence and non-existence seems pretty lame too. All I want is there to be something else. An infinite amount of possibilities. A place thats not even a place. It's something we have never heard of. No air. No humans. No breathing. No nature. No universe. No physics.No philosophy. No language. No concepts. No thinking. But still...something.

You've been reading the Heart Sutra, haven't you?

It will be good if he reads the Heart Sutra. One of the shortest, but a most profound read. Or better yet, hear it being chanted by monks.

Beyond existence and non-existence? That's only God, that is, if we identify God to be the ground of existence. To be Heideggerian about it, God is Being (that which makes entities entities), and Being cannot be a being alongside other beings. Being, ergo, is No-thing. God is No-thing. To say that God exists is as blasphemous as saying that God does not exist (I think Paul Tillich, if not the Church Fathers, said this).

Being precedes existence.

[kandee]

But the OP already stated that they didn't mean an alternate reality/universe.

So I have no idea what else could possibly be, hell one world holds more information that any one mortal could ever realize in a thousand lifestimes, let alone a universe or mulitverse.

A reality of a different natural than the matter mind reality must be what he meant. I don't have an idea of what could possibly be either, I just think there isn't any argument for there not being some other reality.

Kinda. "a reality of a different natural than the matter mind reality" that's kind of right, but not really. I mean it wouldn't even be a reality. just a something.

[volchok]

I can't describe it in human words because those words .

Explain it to us in alien language then.

[kandee]

I can't describe it in human words because those words .

Explain it to us in alien language then.

I couldn't even do that. There are no words in this other concept. No language. There's no explaining anything.

[Stoic Guardian]

Yeah, but death is like..boring. You just rot in a grave and do nothing. Shit, you can't even think anymore.

How do you know this?

[kandee]

how do i know that? well, what else could possibly happen?

[Stoic Guardian]

how do i know that? well, what else could possibly happen?

Well thats the physicalist stance.

But Afterlife etc...

Depends on whether or not you equate life with the existance of ones consciousness, I don't.

[Stoic Guardian]

,

[iambiguous]

Why anyone would seek non-existence is a little puzzling, but from what I understand, the abyss is very welcoming to the many hypnotized into seeking it.

There is nothing at all puzzling about living a life filled with so much pain you would literally beg to die. There are in fact folks enduring terrible pain right now who see the ultimate hell as being legally mandated to exist by "society" when all they yearn for is the abyss.

It's always just a matter of perspective.

When has it ever not been?

[kandee]

think of having a cow in a canoe in the middle of the ocean. Im just using a cow as an example that isnt self-aware like humans are, but the cows perception of reality would be that everything above water is all that exists, even though theres a complex array of life directly under its hooves. It simply lacks the ability to grasp an underwater dimension.

there's reasons to think that there's more out there, but because of our perception of reality, we cant comprehend it especially when it's something that is outside of existence and non-existence--the two biggest concepts we know of.

[kandee]

alright, forget it, guys. I found some books and shit on the topic. now since I did that, I wanna know whats beyond all thats beyond existence and non-existence and what is beyond that and what is beyond that and beyond that and beyond that until I know all that there can possibly be. I want to know everything and I don't, I start feeling nauseated about it. this life just isn't enough for me.

[Stoic Guardian]

alright, forget it, guys. I found some books and shit on the topic. now since I did that, I wanna know whats beyond all thats beyond existence and non-existence and what is beyond that and what is beyond that and beyond that and beyond that until I know all that there can possibly be. I want to know everything and I don't, I start feeling nauseated about it. this life just isn't enough for me.

Your equating your life so far as all of existance, that's certaintly part of the problem. If you want to learn things you don't yet understand, then try starting with learning what existance entails.

Because from what I've read you're comprehension of existance is not as vast as mine.

[gib]

What about things like truths and abstract principles? Like the truth that all circles are round. Is that a "thing" that exists? Some say that abstract principle like this can't actually "exist" because they are constructs in our heads; but it doesn't make any more sense to say that they don't exist because they seem to hold true by themselves - that is, they don't require our awareness of them, our belief in them - they don't even seem to require minds capable of beholding them at all in order to be true.

So do they exist? Do they not exist? Or are they in an entirely different ontological category?

I personally believe the existence/non-existence dichotomy is far too limiting. I believe ontology comes in a whole array of categories, so many of them in fact that for the great majority of them, the word 'ontology' itself doesn't do it justice (but what can we do? - language is limiting).