Middle Class Problem

[turtle]

apparently new jobs requiring a college degree are scarce...the new jobs are for home health care and food preparation..

looks to me that we better watch out for the return
of different forms of slavery...we are already there. turtle

[jonquil]

Are you looking for a job?

[turtle]

Are you looking for a job?

i have a trust fund...my friends need jobs..they are college educated..

[James L Walker]

I wish I had a steady job.

What's a steady job? I have not seen one of those in forever.

[incorrect]

there's lots of new jobs in the washington D.C. area

as the world suffers, the government tries to solve the problems by creating jobs.. government jobs

a lot of them are in information technology, and a good number are in health care

... but honestly, the reason why there's jobs there, is because the government IS inefficient

if it had its act together, it'd be on the same page with the rest of the world.. for better or worse

<aside>
i think that there is a phenomenon happening, as it relates to college education.. in that, it's proving to not mean much at all

there's some notion of 'status' that comes with a college degree.. traditionally those with a college degree came from money, and it was assumed that to have a degree means a person is valuable

but i think now education is a business. for profit schools, and lenders want it to cost a lot. people are now 'sold' degrees, for the idea of more money in the future. but now that college is for everyone... now that more people are going to college.. it doesn't mean as much as it did .. lets say one generation ago

people go into debt for decades via college for the promise of a better future.. and its not coming

i don't think the problem is going to get better. ever. people want a standard that say 'i'm entitled to this job with this money'. but i think reality is.. no one is actually looking to 'create jobs'.. people are only looking to increase money for themselves

the government treats them one as the same (government contractors basically make money by billing you as a service to the govt and collecting overhead $$ based on some pay bracket.. treats all people the same basically.. NOT efficient.. )
</aside>

[Moreno]

apparently new jobs requiring a college degree are scarce...the new jobs are for home health care and food preparation..

looks to me that we better watch out for the return
of different forms of slavery...we are already there. turtle

Slavery never really ended. The slave owners just were no longer responsible for their slaves rent and board. Sharecropper south US was at least good competition for the injustice of slavery. I absolutely think the concept of wage slave is not simple hyperbole. Of course some wage slaves have it fairly good, but I agree with you, things are sliding back. We are now going to understand capitalism the way the third world has.

[PavlovianModel146]

I wish I had a steady job.

What's a steady job? I have not seen one of those in forever.

Have you been in the same place long enough to apply for enough of them?

[PavlovianModel146]

I concur with the majority of Incorrect's post.

I believe that the main problem we are seeing in Education is not so much that Education has become a business, but that (as Incorrect alluded to) a college education does not mean as much to an employer as it did as short as a generation ago.

The reason for this is the high High School graduation rates as compared to generations past over which we spend so much time patting our own collective back. The difficulty with that is, as more schools are encouraging (read: pushing) kids to remain in High School until they graduate, the criteria that need to be met for High School graduation have been reduced to little more than rudimentary reading ability.

The necessary result of that is that even the smartest kids, excepting the exceptionally intelligent, are generally dumber, even given that they have graduated High School. The reason for this is because the schools are now forced to slow things down to make sure all of the kids who are still openly drooling, at the age of seventeen, can keep up with the rest of the class. Furthermore, the schools also spend the majority of the year teaching in prepartion for standardized testing, and even your upper-level classes spend the bulk of the year preparing students for the SAT's or ACT's.

In that sense, not only has the quality of education (again, even for an above-average student) been reduced, but also, kids emerge from High School with essentially the same skill/ability/knowledge set as any other kid in the entire country.

Essentially, education at the Public School level has become an affair of volume, graduate as many kids as possible, make sure we keep our funding, high standardized test scores, make sure we keep that funding...where it used to be an affair of quality. At one time, you had to be reasonably intelligent to graduate High School, (just ask any teacher that has been around for 30+ years) but now all you really have to do is show up. In many schools, you're not allowed to fail anyone, except for the reason of truancy, and even then, they do everything they can to force the kids to go.

Another problem is the concept of continuing education and Good-Enough-Degrees, (GED's, actually stands for Graduation Equivalency Degree), I have seen a GED test as they were administered at a college I attended (in the library) and one was actually left on the table. Let me assure you, if that is the equivalent of graduating, I wasted about ten years of my life as I could have passed that motherfucker at the age of eight! Fuck, I was a potential college student at eight years old.

I do not necessarily believe that colleges are strictly in it for the money, as there are still any number of very low cost schools. I'm not only talking about on-line schools, but there are many physical schools were the tuition costs are more than reasonable. The problem you run into is that there are so many kids graduating High School now, I believe around 85%, that a Degree is basically needed (in lieu of work experience) just to prove that you are not a complete dumbass! To that extent, both Associate's and Bachelor's Degrees have been undervalued compared to the clout they used to carry, particularly Bachelor's Degrees as Associate's Degree's have often been looked at in the sense of, "Oh, so you graduated High School twice!"

In any case, College Courses must also be easier, in most colleges, because the average quality of student has decreased as the vast majority of students qualify to go to college! This is particularly true with Community Colleges, and from there, it's easy to transfer credits regardless of what you did in High School. The problem that even Community Colleges have is that the average student goes into C.C. not knowing what he/she would have known as little as a generation ago!

We opened up Composition 101 with a little R&J when I was in college. I asked the professor, after class, "Why are we doing this? We did Romeo & Juliet in High School!"

His reply, "No, SOME of you may have opened the book and read the words, but you did not understand the book. You memorized what happened and that was about the extent of it. You seem smart enough, but do you think half of the kids in this class could even accurately define, 'theme?' The first year of college is essentially remedial, I mean, it's not because it's stuff you SHOULD have learned in the first place, but many did not. You will find that in all of your classes, I'm afraid."

Anyway, we are implementing a social program that rewards quantity over quality, plain and simple. As a necessary result, the value of all of the degrees (except, perhaps, Doctorates) is reduced because there is a reduction in what is needed to obtain said degree.

The other problem is that you have lost people that would have basically been forced into menial physical labor jobs, which would have satisfied those people perfectly, but now college graduates (who think they are above it because they got an Associate's Degree, as if that's worth a shit) think they should walk into a coal mine as a Superintendent and will accept no less, or say, "That's not what I spent TWO YEARS in school for!" In some cases, even in this economy, you have labor jobs that are going unfilled. An unwillingness to relocate also has something to do with that part, but not all of it.

[PavlovianModel146]

I should also like to move this to Social Sciences, if that's okay, Turtle.

[jonquil]

I knew you had a trust fund, turtle, but there are people with those who still like to work.

Also, certain college degrees do mean something... but they often come with huge debt.
The key is to parlay that degree into a job good enough to pay back the debt and still
make a living.

[turtle]

I should also like to move this to Social Sciences, if that's okay, Turtle.

ok by me...

[incorrect]

i view my college education as an $80,000 piece of paper

i learned more in one year on the job than 4 years of college

if i would have started work say, 4 years earlier, sure the learning curve would be a bit worse.. but i'd have more now

people think they can 'pay' for an education.. that's part of how i view my experience

but frankly i'd rather 'pay' for the 'benefits' it gets me.. if i could write a check for a masters degree, or doctorate.. i'd do it in a heartbeat

but this approach just feels horrible to say, i'm valuing the status, the standard that other people set

when...

the standard means nothing

and is meaning less as time goes on

congrats incorrect, you've been sold 'nothing'.. how does your debt feel?

well so far i am doing okay, because i live in the DC area

i guess i'm one of the lucky ones

and yet i still have the desire to buy more nothing.. more expensive pieces of paper to put on the wall, because some people, including the government, values this nothing, and will pay me more for it

or maybe i actually try harder.. its difficult to really know

perhaps at some point i will stop caring about the money others 'let' me have.. and just do everything.. yes everything.. myself

[PavlovianModel146]

I should also like to move this to Social Sciences, if that's okay, Turtle.

ok by me...

Thanks.

Topic Moved to Social Sciences, Shadow Topic left in place.

[natasha]

I hear you incorrect and feel bad that you have an $80 grand college debt to deal with. There are several members of my family going through the same thing. Disillusioned to say the least.

I have a son in High School (HS), basically a college prep school, who honestly doesn't appear to be college material to me. Not that he's not intelligent but I feel that he hasn't really shown any aptitude for the college prep part. He doesn't excel at math or a science and doesn't appear to have the drive to honestly even want to be in a college except for the social aspect it affords.

Both my hubs and I realize that a college degree is pretty much worthless, unless you are going to school for a specific degree like engineering or medical and we're starting to feel as if maybe we shouldn't even be thinking of college for him, but set him up in a small business when he graduates. He loves in-line skating and does it well. Maybe we ought to take whatever money we would have spent on college and invest it in him differently....like a skate shop! Either that or start a family business.

I just don't see many people coming out of school with a BS degree making out any better than HS graduates. My daughter who is NOW in nursing school, has @ least a dozen girlfriends who all went directly to college from HS. They graduated three years ago and here's a sample of what they are doing: personal trainer at a gym, hairstylist, technician spraying on fake tans, a nanny, clerking for the IRS, bar-tending...well you get the idea. Schlepping away at jobs that they didn't need college for, in debt and not too happy about it.

I really think that a lot of parents should send their kids to trade schools and forget about the idea that people with college diplomas are more valuable...it's just NOT true. Not anymore.

[PavlovianModel146]

Both my hubs and I realize that a college degree is pretty much worthless, unless you are going to school for a specific degree like engineering or medical and we're starting to feel as if maybe we shouldn't even be thinking of college for him, but set him up in a small business when he graduates. He loves in-line skating and does it well. Maybe we ought to take whatever money we would have spent on college and invest it in him differently....like a skate shop! Either that or start a family business.

That idea...Yeah, it's mine now. I'm going to present each of the kids with the amount I have saved them for college, and I will present them a choice. Put this towards college, or put this towards your own business, if you do the latter, I will manage the finances to get you started (so I know where the money goes) and then turn you loose with it and good luck!

Seriously, though, that's an amazing idea. Thank you.

[natasha]

You're welcome, Pav!

Glad you like it.

Seriously...we would also manage the finances as you suggest and he could take necessary classes at the local CC that would help him in this endeavor.
Individual classes as needed such as: billing, management, web page design..whatever.

[PavlovianModel146]

Seriously...we would also manage the finances as you suggest and he could take necessary classes at the local CC that would help him in this endeavor.
Individual classes as needed such as: billing, management, web page design..whatever.

That's another good idea that I have detailed to various people. The natural tendency, with many people who go to college, is that they are going in order to get a specific degree, but there are many people that choose to pursue career paths in which no specific degree really applies, or that any degree is useless for that particular career path. In those situations, I have often suggested that people take whatever classes that will make them better at whatever it is they need to do to accomplish their goals. For instance, you can learn how to design a webpage without getting an Associate's in Computer Programming, you can handle the books for a small business without a degree of any kind in Accounting...the list goes on...

[incorrect]

don't feel too bad, my debt isn't $80k, but that's roughly how much was spent for in-state tuition and room and board over 4 years

my dad helped me out boatloads money wise, and i make enough to pay at least 4x the minimum payment monthly on what i have left

but the time was a waste, i can't get that back

and now ive been working for a few years, just to pay this off, its also a waste

college is a scheme that has so far stolen almost 7 years of my life money-wise (combined time in college + time paying off).. what i would have done otherwise... lets say i'm still maturing at 18.. and would have had to learn a little bit more... i'll barter that down to 4 years

when its all said and done its like 5% of my life... in terms of 'extra earnings' that could have been made otherwise, assuming i live to reasonably old age

and thats huge