Human Depression

[Ierrellus]

"Various studies have found that the parts of the brain that control fear are different in people who suffer from panic attacks. In other words, some people are born with a higher risk of suffering panic attacks. At the same time, stressful situations (the external environment) often trigger the attacks." Dr. K. (Anthony Komaroff, syndicated columnist.
So, why bring in panic attacks and why quote a columnist?
Panic attacks are common in persons who suffer from major depression. Dr. K finds them occuring because of the epigenetic combination of brains producing fear and environments producing stress. Fear is generally considered to be an emotion. One cannot extricate emotion from MI. Moods are expressions of emotions.
Judging the Self, although a definite, strong symptom of depression is something intermediate between the chemistry going awry and the environment being oppressive.

[Ierrellus]

Depression for me has usualy been a conflict between my circadian rhythms and what the world and myself allow me to be and do. The rhythms have to do with the where and when of first sexual experience, marriage, middle age, and death. Imposed on these are the when and where of the societal calendar.

[Calrid]

Depression for me has usualy been a conflict between my circadian rhythms and what the world and myself allow me to be and do. The rhythms have to do with the where and when of first sexual experience, marriage, middle age, and death. Imposed on these are the when and where of the societal calendar.

You mean you live just far North enough to suffer from SAD?

[Ierrellus]

Depression for me has usualy been a conflict between my circadian rhythms and what the world and myself allow me to be and do. The rhythms have to do with the where and when of first sexual experience, marriage, middle age, and death. Imposed on these are the when and where of the societal calendar.

You mean you live just far North enough to suffer from SAD?

Yes. Born and raised in the deep South. But they're not experiencing a lot of sunshine down there these days. I probably used "circadian" in the wrong sense. What I meant by that was the biological clock (Yes, men have them, too.) and it's times of getting out of sync with what the world outside my head seems to expect of me.

[Calrid]

Depression for me has usualy been a conflict between my circadian rhythms and what the world and myself allow me to be and do. The rhythms have to do with the where and when of first sexual experience, marriage, middle age, and death. Imposed on these are the when and where of the societal calendar.

You mean you live just far North enough to suffer from SAD?

Yes. Born and raised in the deep South. But they're not experiencing a lot of sunshine down there these days. I probably used "circadian" in the wrong sense. What I meant by that was the biological clock (Yes, men have them, too.) and it's times of getting out of sync with what the world outside my head seems to expect of me.

Yeah I get it bad, and having a very tough time atm, it seems like I'm going for the whole 6 month deal, I've doubled and then quadrupled my antidepressant dose and it seems to be working to some extent, but I still am by no means normal. I should be thankful for small mercies, I've had episodes where not only could I not leave the house, I could not even leave my bed because I was thirsty, too much effort, and at the time my voice was so slurred few people could understand me. That was before medication though. It's a shitter and it aint going to magically get better. Kinda hoping the newer treatments are going to be available at some point, that they might alleviate much of the symptoms, but for now...

I think some of it is being born and raised in conditions where there was a lot of light. When I was young the summers were always magically hot and clear of rain. It may trigger the condition. Bad luck for me I guess, but I am philosophical, I'm never going to get used to it, but I am going to get stronger and toughen up with the help of meds.

From what I have found out it's not certain what causes it, it has some genetic prevalence, essentially though it is hyper sensitivity to light that seems to be the issue although the pharmacological route of the problem is unknown. In women a particular brain region is enlarged, in men this does not happen so the cause is more uncertain. Although in women they are just guessing that it's the cause, I'm not sure they know why a brain region would be enlarged, genetic or caused by exposure?

[lizbethrose]

My doctor told my to start taking 2000 ius of vitamin D3 on a daily basis. It works for me. SAD is a vitamin D3 insufficiency that comes about as the result of a lack of sunlight. The vitamin is usually produced naturally by the body chemistry through the absorption of sun rays. A lot of us who live so far north of the equator just don't get the rays we need. That's why milk, for example, is 'fortified' with vitamin D.

Try it. You can get it otc in drug stores here. I'm sure the same is true in England. I don't know what anti-depressant you're taking, but I strongly advise against taking more than your prescribed amount without the advice of your doctor. There are too many anti-depressants that do various things--different things--to your mind depending on the diagnosis of your mental condition. Please, please, please don't mess around with your brain and please, please, please consult with your doctor rather than the internet for a diagnosis. Please!

[Flannel Jesus]

Sunlight Give Us The Real Stuff!

[Ierrellus]

Calrid,
You write well. Nobody's "normal". I'd advise you to use your difference in ways that will give you the positive emotional feedback we all need from others. Were it not for that difference, we'd have few creative people, no new inventions, no breakthroughs in science.
I recognize the agoraphobia. One day I just weighed the suffering of staying in against the suffering of going out. I went out. The first excusions into the world are probably experienced in the same way as I experienced a first try at karaoke. It's like jumping into a pool of ice water. But, the more you do it, the warmer the water gets.
Sunshine--if you can't get it, buy yourself a plant-grow light for a lamp by your favorite chair. I've heard it helps because those light bulbs put out full-spectrum light, as the sun does. Generally, manufacturers of light bulbs are more interested in making bulbs that help you see what you're doing, not in making bulbs that affect your mood.

[turtle]

are psychiatrists now just technicians who pass out fancy combinations of drugs that have complicated interactions?

i hear that anti-depressants help about 50% ...then the psychiatrist adds more meds to the a-d in hopes for a better result..the patient isnt usually interested in the risks...

i am down on psychiatry...

[statiktech]

I recognize the agoraphobia. One day I just weighed the suffering of staying in against the suffering of going out. I went out. The first excusions into the world are probably experienced in the same way as I experienced a first try at karaoke. It's like jumping into a pool of ice water. But, the more you do it, the warmer the water gets.

Christ, you aren't kidding. It's a gradual process, and one that guarantees, at least some, anxiety [among other things]. I came to much the same place in my life and slowly came to the realization that an abundance of down-time, or time alone, seems damn near toxic for me -- so, like you, I went out. I find a good bit of comfort in philosophy too. I relate to people like Antisthenes, who said the greatest benefit he derived from philosophy was the ability to converse with himself. I'm learning. And, in doing so, I'm understanding more and more how fundamental and important communication is to us, as animals.

Sunshine--if you can't get it, buy yourself a plant-grow light for a lamp by your favorite chair. I've heard it helps because those light bulbs put out full-spectrum light, as the sun does. Generally, manufacturers of light bulbs are more interested in making bulbs that help you see what you're doing, not in making bulbs that affect your mood.

I would also add physical exercise. At a gym, alone in your room, wherever -- whenever you have time. The benefits can be remarkable. Not just for self esteem, or superficial reasons, but for general health and clarity of mind. I know, all too well, how fucking draining depression is. I tend to become extremely withdrawn, and experience melancholia, anguish, and terrible malaise. When I am actually able to force myself to exercise, I notice an almost immediate difference. I'm not worried, or stressed, or angry during or after a workout -- rather, I am somewhat relieved and proud of myself.

I'm not sure how good this is as general advice, but it works for me and my sister who both suffer from MI:-- Try to make a habit of pushing yourself beyond your bubble of familiar discomforts. I don't say "comfort" because, well, it isn't. Melancholia is not something I enjoy feeling, but it's relatively familiar to me [more-so than going somewhere and doing something, for example]. To be clear, pushing yourself likely won't be any less discomforting, but you'll slowly come to realize that many situations are not nearly as bad as you might normally, and naturally, think. It's kind of an exercise in learning how you tend to exaggerate situations in your mind, and you can gain something of a new perspective on your natural responses.

[anon]

Stupid question, but... what's MI? I haven't followed this thread and I can't find any references.

[turtle]

Stupid question, but... what's MI? I haven't followed this thread and I can't find any references.

i think MI is short for mental illness...

now i have another question----is human depression considered a mental illness?

[statiktech]

I've been under the assumption MI = Mental Illness.

As for 'depression', I think the term is far too general to attribute it to, or label it as, any one thing. It certainly seems to accompany many forms of MI, and I would think chronic depression could be considered an 'illness' in itself. That is to say, it could be a mental illness just as well as it could be the result of a bad day. I think we'd have to investigate more into how the depression is experienced -- things like symptoms, severity, frequency, physiology, and any discernible 'triggers.'

[anon]

Ok, thanks turtle and Statik.

[anon]

I read the other day that many people would like to expand the scope of clinical depression in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) to include grieving. That strikes me as unhealthy. I think it's unhealthy to think of depression as an enemy to be eradicated.

[statiktech]

are psychiatrists now just technicians who pass out fancy combinations of drugs that have complicated interactions?

i hear that anti-depressants help about 50% ...then the psychiatrist adds more meds to the a-d in hopes for a better result..the patient isnt usually interested in the risks...

i am down on psychiatry...

From what I understand, this is a common misconception about psychiatry. Something I learned from my Mom during her trials in attempting to find help for my sister. Of course, anyone who writes prescriptions has potential to be a 'pusher', or act like a marketing rep. for pharmaceutical companies. But psychiatry generally focuses on identification and maintenance, often involving medication in conjunction with some form of behavioral therapy.

Psychologists, on the other hand, are the ones to keep critical of. Any practice that seeks to make a science of human behavior is questionable to me in the first place. Psychologists generally recommend medication[s], to be prescribed by a psychiatrist, to treat suspected physiological deficiencies or imbalances. The reason I say one ought to keep an eye on them is because they are quick to characterize [apparent] abnormalities in thought or behavior as a functional abnormalities in the brain [which assumes very mechanistic relationships]. I'm not saying this is never the case, but I think we are often quick to discount how profoundly our habits, relationships, and environments affect our mental states -- and I think we often do so in the interest of obtaining a simple 'remedy', based on altering mechanistic processes in the brain, rather than altering our coveted lifestyles.

[Calrid]

My doctor told my to start taking 2000 ius of vitamin D3 on a daily basis. It works for me. SAD is a vitamin D3 insufficiency that comes about as the result of a lack of sunlight. The vitamin is usually produced naturally by the body chemistry through the absorption of sun rays. A lot of us who live so far north of the equator just don't get the rays we need. That's why milk, for example, is 'fortified' with vitamin D.

Try it. You can get it otc in drug stores here. I'm sure the same is true in England. I don't know what anti-depressant you're taking, but I strongly advise against taking more than your prescribed amount without the advice of your doctor. There are too many anti-depressants that do various things--different things--to your mind depending on the diagnosis of your mental condition. Please, please, please don't mess around with your brain and please, please, please consult with your doctor rather than the internet for a diagnosis. Please!

Thank you for the advice I am always looking for alternatives. Apparently the best treatment found so far is melatonin injections at the right time and then exposure to light at the right time. Melatonin is produced ultimately by the absorption of the suns rays which produces seratonin which is then broken down into melatonin.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/20 ... thms.shtml

[lizbethrose]

I've never heard of melatonin injections, so I can't say. I have read, however, that Vitamin D3 helps with other conditions, or potential conditions, such as heart disease, stroke, cancer, osteoporosis, rickets. This, to me, alone makes D3 supplements advisable. Also, it's the UVB rays in sunlight that help the body manufacture D3, so I question the use of 'light' as such. It depends, of course, on what type of light is used. If it's like a tanning bed, forget it. Tanning beds emit more UVA rays than UVB, so they don't do anything to promote D3 production.

All in all, I think my doctor had the best advise--take the supplement. And stat is correct--get out and exercise! Exercise produces endorphins--nature's happy pill.

[lizbethrose]

I read the other day that many people would like to expand the scope of clinical depression in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) to include grieving. That strikes me as unhealthy. I think it's unhealthy to think of depression as an enemy to be eradicated.

Anon, my various MD, have all said depression is either a form of mood disorder or an anxiety disorder. Grief would fall under either of those definitions, but grief is usually not chronic, unless you're a Miss Havisham. Physical trauma can also cause depression, but again, it's usually not chronic.. There can be all sorts of reasons for a chronic anxiety disorder, genetic predisposition can cause chronic depression if the causal factor is severe enough, or happens often enough, to upset the brain chemicals permanently. It's thought that may be what happened to me. We'll find out this summer when my doctor and I discover how I react when I try to get off Effexor.

[Ierrellus]

I recognize the agoraphobia. One day I just weighed the suffering of staying in against the suffering of going out. I went out. The first excusions into the world are probably experienced in the same way as I experienced a first try at karaoke. It's like jumping into a pool of ice water. But, the more you do it, the warmer the water gets.

Christ, you aren't kidding. It's a gradual process, and one that guarantees, at least some, anxiety [among other things]. I came to much the same place in my life and slowly came to the realization that an abundance of down-time, or time alone, seems damn near toxic for me -- so, like you, I went out. I find a good bit of comfort in philosophy too. I relate to people like Antisthenes, who said the greatest benefit he derived from philosophy was the ability to converse with himself. I'm learning. And, in doing so, I'm understanding more and more how fundamental and important communication is to us, as animals.

Sunshine--if you can't get it, buy yourself a plant-grow light for a lamp by your favorite chair. I've heard it helps because those light bulbs put out full-spectrum light, as the sun does. Generally, manufacturers of light bulbs are more interested in making bulbs that help you see what you're doing, not in making bulbs that affect your mood.

I would also add physical exercise. At a gym, alone in your room, wherever -- whenever you have time. The benefits can be remarkable. Not just for self esteem, or superficial reasons, but for general health and clarity of mind. I know, all too well, how fucking draining depression is. I tend to become extremely withdrawn, and experience melancholia, anguish, and terrible malaise. When I am actually able to force myself to exercise, I notice an almost immediate difference. I'm not worried, or stressed, or angry during or after a workout -- rather, I am somewhat relieved and proud of myself.

I'm not sure how good this is as general advice, but it works for me and my sister who both suffer from MI:-- Try to make a habit of pushing yourself beyond your bubble of familiar discomforts. I don't say "comfort" because, well, it isn't. Melancholia is not something I enjoy feeling, but it's relatively familiar to me [more-so than going somewhere and doing something, for example]. To be clear, pushing yourself likely won't be any less discomforting, but you'll slowly come to realize that many situations are not nearly as bad as you might normally, and naturally, think. It's kind of an exercise in learning how you tend to exaggerate situations in your mind, and you can gain something of a new perspective on your natural responses.

Good advice. Dr Gott claims that the two major reliefs from stress are sex and exercize. But some of us can't count on the one and are too depressed to attempt the other.

[Ierrellus]

I read the other day that many people would like to expand the scope of clinical depression in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) to include grieving. That strikes me as unhealthy. I think it's unhealthy to think of depression as an enemy to be eradicated.

Anon, my various MD, have all said depression is either a form of mood disorder or an anxiety disorder. Grief would fall under either of those definitions, but grief is usually not chronic, unless you're a Miss Havisham. Physical trauma can also cause depression, but again, it's usually not chronic.. There can be all sorts of reasons for a chronic anxiety disorder, genetic predisposition can cause chronic depression if the causal factor is severe enough, or happens often enough, to upset the brain chemicals permanently. It's thought that may be what happened to me. We'll find out this summer when my doctor and I discover how I react when I try to get off Effexor.

Grief is normal. Long-term grief isn't.

[Ierrellus]

turtle,
Most psychotherapists could be replaced by a coin-op machine. You punch in your symptoms and out comes Rxs.
1 of 3. TMS==transcranial magnetic stimulation. It is not to be confused with electro-shock therapy. The Abbreviation to TMS is mine. The rest here is from the Mayo Clinic.
"TMS is a procedure that uses magnetic fields to stimulate nerve cells in the brain to improve symptoms of depression.
With TMS a large magnetic coil is placed against your scalp near your forehead. The electromagnet used in TMS creates electric currents that stimulate nerve cells in the region of your brain involved in mood control and depression. . . ."

[Ierrellus]

2. of 3.
"Because TMS is a relatively new depression treatment, more studies are needed to determine how effective it is, which treatment techniques work best and whether it has any long-term side effects."
There' much about this from simple searches on PC, including testimonials."

[Ierrellus]

3. As a teenager, I read, probably from Mom's collection of "Fate" magazines, that Nostradamus got his visions of the future by putting magnets on his forehead and putting is toe in a bowl of water. I tried it. Didn't get any visions of the future, but felt good for weeks!

[anon]

I read the other day that many people would like to expand the scope of clinical depression in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) to include grieving. That strikes me as unhealthy. I think it's unhealthy to think of depression as an enemy to be eradicated.

Anon, my various MD, have all said depression is either a form of mood disorder or an anxiety disorder. Grief would fall under either of those definitions, but grief is usually not chronic, unless you're a Miss Havisham. Physical trauma can also cause depression, but again, it's usually not chronic.. There can be all sorts of reasons for a chronic anxiety disorder, genetic predisposition can cause chronic depression if the causal factor is severe enough, or happens often enough, to upset the brain chemicals permanently. It's thought that may be what happened to me. We'll find out this summer when my doctor and I discover how I react when I try to get off Effexor.

Grief is normal. Long-term grief isn't.

Here is a bit more on the expanded definition of depression proposed for DSM 5.

I agree with you, Ierrellus, though I'd add that though long-term grief may not be normal, it may be ok. Or, let me put it this way... our modern culture (especially in America, I think) is so oriented towards Disney-esque entertainment, hyper energy, happy happy bright moods, etc. - you get the picture - that I think we are out of touch with our basic humanity. Our "normal" isn't really normal. I think many people simply have a perfectly valid and reasonable response to the problems and sufferings of the world, and mistakenly think there must be some problem with that. That people don't grieve more than they do for the state of things strikes me as a particularly large problem now. If people want to work with their depression, because it's a problem in some way(s) for them, I think a great start is to understand the fundamental intelligence and humanity that depression represents. It is not an enemy, and it is not solid. It is not something to be gotten rid of.