An Introduction to Job

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I like the themes you’ve presented - nakedness, fear, shame… these things often completely define our lives. If we can come to grips with these, I believe we can live well. We can live fully.

Dostoevsky’s characters are sometimes physically bent, or contorted. I think our minds can likewise be contorted. Perhaps we can only experience spirituality when we have a good “inner posture”. Bad posture and inability to make eye contact often results from fear and shame. Doesn’t it say in the Bible that nobody has ever seen God’s face?

Not sure if it says this outright but the theme is alive. God would only show Moses His backside for instance in the fear that he might die if he saw God’s face. Job says that he sees God but it is unclear if he sees God face to face. Jacob wrestles with God and so would presumably see God’s face but it could only be in a dream.

There is Adam, however, who presumably saw God face to face, and not in a dream. There is no indication that he didn’t see God’s face at least, even though it isn’t explicitly said that he did. And Adam, at least until he sinned, had no real reason to feel ashamed and to avoid God’s eye…

There is this lasting feeling of shame though, since Adam, which makes it harder for us to do so. Throughout human history there is a lot to be ashamed of, and that we should feel ashamed of. Nevertheless we must not think that we can’t look God in the eye. In truth we are called to do so.

Not just to overcome our shame but to affirm our majesty as children of God.

REsponding as a no longer Christian, I don’t see why we need to assume fear of God is a good thing. (though give what has gone on in the universe up until now, it is not surprising one would feel fear of a God who made the world this way. Hopefully both sides can grow out of this.)

This is an odd thought. I am sure the ostrich ‘complains’ in its own way when it has something to complain about, and in those instances the ostrich does not flap its wings with joy.

I’m sure you can if translated to secular terms. Think of it as humility even. Can you see why that might be a good thing? Being mindful of powers out there that are greater than us? Spirits that are wiser and more loving?

It’s a posture that prepares us for what we ought to become, whether Christian or not.

I’m not secular or only secular.

Humility in the sense of being willing to notice one’s current limitations, sure. I don’t think being humble, as this is generally conceived is positive.

Of course, but most powers I do not trust and for good reasons.

No, I don’t think fearing these is something that should be considered good, a goal or a permanent state.

Frankly, I’d appreciate awe, respect, admiration much more. There is no need to even compare myself as a whole being with the other being. I can be humbled by creatures that supposedly humans are superior too and not just around physical prowess. There is no need to have a humble concept of myself that I compare or create through comparison with some other being. Being stunned by the good or great qualities of another being of any kind, need not have this ‘I am little’ ‘I am smaller’ quality to it. ‘Wow, that’s amazing’ is enough. And sure, an awareness on occasion that I cannot do this or that now.

Religions have long responded to the problem of evil with rules about how fear of God is a good thing. Humans have also tried to avoid what they think is the wrath of God by being humble. We have a bunch of spiritual tricks - attitudinal - that we have tried as a way to protect ourselves. As ways to get to Heaven or avoid punishment or banishment. I think there are very much parallel to the rules of behavior traumatized children develop in relation to their parents and then other adults.

We need to get underneath these and see if they are really necessary or no real relation with God will be possible.

Note: I edited my previous post, perhaps after you read it.

Then you can see the importance of humility, and of fearing God insofar as it is a humble posture. Part of it is being open to precisely what you describe, or to recognizing our insufficiencies and how others excel.

It’s a difference that enables us to progress.

You’re right, fearing God need not come with this feeling. My point in the OP in fact is that we should not feel this way, and that Job especially should not feel this way. Instead we should take pride and joy in ourselves.

No, not really. I was shifting the word, to show that it has nothing to do with relative greatness. Being humble is generally looked at as having a restrained self-image, if not something more reducing, like thinking oneself small. I have no need for that, really, in relation to animals, babies, oceans, deities. I can react to them without having an ongoing attitude about myself. I need not have a restrained self-evaluation.
I deliberately used humble in a situation where one does not, generally, consider oneself, as a whole less than the other. In the end, I think we are better off without the word humble, especially as a goal.

There is no need to fear a loving parent.

But these do not need to be coupled. I can have the same reaction to an artist or musician who does something I love that I would not have done - perhaps I could, perhaps not, who knows. I don’t need to compare myself to have a full appreciation for someone else.

Humility includes this idea of thinking oneself less, as if this was necessary to appreciate or respect the other.

And fear…that’s a sign there is a problem.

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But it seemed like, at the end of your OP, you were suggesting that we both fear and trust, that both are necessary.

I still think we’re on the same page more or less! I don’t want humility as the goal. I certainly don’t want us to always think of ourselves as lesser. Also, humility is not a replacement for fear of God, which is much richer in its meaning I think. I shouldn’t have confused the situation, or my own views, by translating it into humility.

Fear of God is better left as I tried to express it in the OP, as the fear that we can only feel as we stand naked (before God).

To stand naked before a loving parent takes fear and trust. Both at the same time. Fear, because we never really know what to expect. Trust, because we trust them to do what is right. Or to respond to us in a way that is right.

The more we experience good results the more the fear will diminish and the trust will change, becoming less trust and more assurance and confidence in our nudity.

Have you read the book of Job? This is the problem at the beginning of the book, or why the satan doubts Job. He thinks that God’s “fence” around Job has made it easy for Job to fear God. That God’s fence has taken the fear out of fearing God. Hence the satan wants the fence removed so as to put the fear back into fearing God and to really test Job’s mettle.

Hopefully the above example shows why, or how, both fear and trust are at play. And don’t get me wrong: I think our fear of God is meant to dissolve over time, as we become more and more assured of God’s ways and confident in our nudity, just as Job was before his testing.

(But this still only remains the half of it though, this posture of fearing–>trusting God. The other half, or what I really wanted to pronounce in my OP even if it was confused, or I was confused on certain details, is that this is not enough. That this is just the beginning (of wisdom). Fearing/trusting God puts us in a position of pretty extreme dependence (and humility!) even as it allows our confidence to build. The next step is really taking pride in ourselves. More than this it is fulfilling our calling to image God, so that God can fear–>trust us as well.)

Eating from the tree of knowledge and standing naked before God, could be seen as a kind of self recognition. Through our lives we gain extra depth to this, where a dog would see its reflection in the mirror and think its another dog, humans understand ‘this is who we are and what we have done’.

The Chinese man who drives a BMW which isn’t a BMW but a fraudulently made version of it, may be driving along in his car thinking how great his life is. Then one day he will suddenly feel like he’s driving a stolen car and feel naked and dirty to that truth. He will consider all the work that went into the original and know that the copy has given nothing to those who done the work, who thought out all the problems and resolved them.

In many ways life is like the layers of an onion, with each ‘revelation’ we strip back another layer and get closer to the core truth.

I believe that “fear of god” has more sinister origins.
Some people can say how it’s positive, but it’s not positive.
Fear or derivatives of fear are not forms of true respect or humility, they are based in danger and suppression.

Perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to say that, we fear how god would perceive our nakedness. The iniquities in our hearts and the recognition of self as compared to how we perceive god to be, or how we think he would view us. How can whatever we are be pure enough to transcend the world and enter heaven ~ when we see ourselves as the world [or of it].

Quite but then aren’t they a product of simpler times. How can you judge them with your world weary conventional views. How can you not. Gods message should be timeless, I believe man and man alone wrote the bible, if God does exist he was foolish enough to let them, blasphemous as that is.

Job makes little sense to a sophisticated person, he’s asking Satan to give Job trials to see if he is worthy of his piousness and purity of faith before God, why on Earth would you bother, being God, you already know his worth. And yes this might be to teach people that ultimately God is right always, but then that’s already intrinsic to your faith? What need of trite stories when the truth is already known? I personally think Job shows a side of God that is not as perfect as it is in later stories, it is after all the oldest of the book of the bible; it clearly reveals a religion that goes from almost omniscience to always perfectly omniscient. I have to wonder why, and I have to think that is because of the way religion tends to work for people, without absolutes things get controversial. Our father who art in heaven hallowed be his claim.

If God is perfect there should be no need to test anyone. God already knows all, and wasting your time teaching people who should already know he cannot be tested or wrong about anything ever, see x and y OT, is banal.

The inner voice is most probably purely internal, so weather or not God exists religion is about how we see ourselves as compared to divinity. One may in contemplation arrive at an idea that God exists, then the inner voice is a separate process comparing things to however we see god, or think he would act morally. Even if we thought God didn’t say anything to us, we may still assume a comparative ~ we’d still wonder what we had to do to please the non-present father - so to say.

Is there no need to test ourselves?

It seems to me the final lesson to be gained from the story (regardless of the many within) is basically, “If you can’t beat them, join them”.

That’s right! Fear of God is something that can only be experienced in nudity. Or by not hiding. (Someone who says they fear God while filling a storehouse with supplies is a liar.)

Not sure how to take your last comment though. Are you suggesting that we should not see ourselves as being of the world?

In regards to this it is worth noting that Job arises as dust. He does not in any way deny his worldliness but rather he proudly reveals it and revels in it.

Is divinity/heaven the same as the world? Is god the earth or something beyond the physical, as are our souls, no. this is where I get confused with Christian philosophy, what kind of spirituality does the earth yield? Can we after the resurrection live forever here, wont we over populate etc, etc. For me the earth is evolution, it is cyclic and brings death to its children, it is the devil ~ in a kind of templar manner.

Arises as dust? that’s fascinating I wonder how that is meant.

I don’t think these are separable if that’s what you mean. Heaven is on earth. The Heavenly City descends to earth. We do not simply ascend to the Heavenly City.

With God all things are possible.

The earth is your home. It’s what you’re made of. It can be a positive force so long as it is treated and channeled positively. It is powerful though and can certainly bring death to those who are unequal to it.

The passage is 42:6, typically rendered as Job repenting in dust and ashes. I think a better or fuller rendering is that Job is consoled about dust and ashes and that Job arises as and from dust and ashes.

He does not cease to be dust but rather he is dust more confidently. Like the ostrich, Job is now proud of his wings.

There would need to be something near to a total transformation of earth to make it heaven; would that still be earth?
I mean if you get rid of death and disease etc, then you get rid of what life is about and hence what the world is about.

Lets assume that’s true, to prevent overcrowding he would need to grow the planet endlessly, and change the laws of physics so it doesn’t get to heavy and become a black hole etc. …I am using extremes in order to take the argument to potentials.

I’d say I am mind and that is not physical, hence earth is not what my soul is made of.

I have been contemplating something recently which may be similar; the thoughts are kinda like my earthly form is concerned about its mortality, but I have to remind it that it is physical, it has never lived and had consciousness. To it they are illusions that it cannot even know, because the only thing about the dust that thinks is not of the dust.

Perhaps job thought the opposite to that? In other words, the dust is the thinker.

doesn’t make sense to me, thats like saying rocks think?

Why on earth would you think that life is about death and disease? That’s not what life is.

Water into wine. The realm of possibility expands. That’s what it means: with God all things are possible because with God new things are possible.

Stop confining yourself to what is possible right now.

Okay. But you are a body too. Or at least you have a body, and some might think this is an important, wonderful thing. A deep part of our human identity and not just the epitomy of death and disease.

I don’t think that Job thought in the dualism that you do. Job’s humanity is not defined as a mind that thinks but as an earthling (adam, or of the earth).

I meant that they are part of life not the reason or purpose of it. I made other points there too that you missed; how do we define the earth as anything other than what it is now. If it is changed beyond recognition they it is no longer the earth. Same as if you were changed beyond recognition, you wouldn’t be you.

I am not, I am just making the philosophical point, that if you change something then it is no longer what it formerly was. ‘Water into wine’ here means that god would have to change things illogically;

Change the rules of the universe such that the earth can be grown impossibly large to cope with ever greater binary exponents of population expansion [which goes into zillions and on into denumerable amounts].

Resurrection paradox; during a war an innocent farmer is killed, his body blown apart by cannon, a part of his arm flies off into a pigpen and get eaten by a pig. A priest later eats the pig.
When the priest and the farmer are later resurrected, who gets the former cells of their bodies? They were once the farmers arm, then become a constituent part of the priest, so rightly are part of both.

Okay. But you are a body too. Or at least you have a body, and some might think this is an important, wonderful thing a deep part of our human identity.

For me it is dust, the only thing about it that is human is mind and information. My identity is formed from evolutional and environmental informations, then when I am born I take that info on and it becomes part of me. As I grow into myself that info is subsumed by who I am I.e. my soul or that of it which is incarnated in this form.

In short what I am saying is that being human is all about human ‘being’.

Well there is part of the indo-European spiritual culture which relates to that, in celtic lore there was a belief that we are all children of ‘dis’ ~ grown out of the earth, and I think there are similar things in most ancient religions.
He may be correct, that in some animist way the earth itself contains life, and then it would be true that our spirit and souls are literally within the earth. I’d have to believe in the biblical creation to see adam as the living form of all that though. creation theories often think of us as arising from some creation mound, but now we have to take that back nearly 15 billion years to before there were planets even ~ for it to be correct that is!

Ancient peoples didn’t have the same way of seeing things as us, the element of earth wouldn’t have simply referred to matter, chemicals, mud, it would have been a spiritual thing.

interesting!