First memory

I would suggest that, since there are no gaps, only stages of process, in biochemistry producing minds, everyone’s earliest “Memories” are pre-natal.
Lady K., what goes on with the fetus in the mid, 2nd trimester? I’m ignorant of such things; but I can’t consider a fetal brain as capable of thinking, even though the self-other interactions are already present in the womb. I could be wrong. So what do you mean by sentience at the stage of development to which you refer?
I agree about animals.

Up to the midpart of the second trimester the body and brain are still forming, the body is incomplete there can be no humanity with an incomplete body and brain. Can a brain that is not fully formed be sentient? I say no. I realize that some are going to get rabid about this but it is a valid question and subject.

There’s no such thing as a complete body and brain. We are what we are, in each moment. All you’re saying here is that a fetus isn’t a child. Well a child isn’t an adult, either.

:laughing: :laughing: And out of the chute to grab the first pick, anon!!! ROTFLMFAO. Anon you know what I mean, don’t pick nits on it. There is forming then there is growing, you know this. I did not say grow I said formed. and that means it is still getting put together in one viable item. Unless you are stating that a two day old fetus already has fully formed hands? :smiley: :smiley:

I’m glad I amuse you. :laughing:

I guess I’m just never happy with people trying to pin down what is or isn’t life, sentient, human, etc. Anti-abortionists say one thing, pro-choicers say another thing… But everyone is always trying to turn difficult choices into easy ones. But I think some kinds of choices should always remain difficult ones. Otherwise, we become less human, in a sense.

I fully agree that some choices should always be difficult. Especially this one. Once it becomes mandated either way then a child becomes a commodity. i fear the day we lose choice. I cannot ever say that someone who believes life begins at conception is totally wrong, I cannot condemn that. I do expect the same respect. but, it seems those that are in charge are leaning towards making women walking incubators wether that woman want to be one or not. it, to me, is a form of slavery to force a woman to carry.

I’m glad we generally agree. You worried me for a second. :wink:

:laughing: I just cannot see a fetus as human until it actually begins to grow after being formed… I think that is where we may disagree. when does a seed become a tree? When does a seed become a seed?

I don’t consider anyone to be human until they can buy me a pint legally or otherwise. Probably just me though. :smiley:

What is “human” just depends on the definition we assign the word. That’s not so much the issue for me. The issue to me is that a fetus (I think) experiences his or her world, feels pain, etc. And even if that isn’t true, our relationship to the unborn is indicative of our attitude towards all life. I think abortion is sometimes the best choice in a given situation, but the thought of aborting a fetus as freely and easily as we throw away food scraps… well, that just doesn’t sit well with me. And now with the growing fertility industry, isn’t that the inevitable outcome? Oops, quintuplets on the way! No problem though…

I don’t have an answer, policy-wise, by the way. This is just my basic attitude.

anon, I agree but, I also see the flipside of not being able to freely abort. Because I believe in quality of life over quantity , I would rather that fetus be aborted than suffer abuse, neglect, drug addictions etc. The socialservices for unwanted children is overwhelmed now. Imagine if you would dumping so many more on an over worked system. What happens to those children? What kind of life will they have, how many will fall through the cracks and become something that is abberant? The system will have to accept foster parents with less background checks and no experience… that scares the crap out of me. Accepting life just because its human can cause untold issues in overpopulation, health risks, mental and physical, it has the potential do be incredibly damaging to humanity as a whole. If abortion becomes illegal its just the first step down a really frightening slippery slope.

Not sure where the “but” comes in, because I agree with you.

If the fundies get their way, Roe vs. Wade will be undone after the coming election. Not being a woman, I feel I have no right to say what a woman should do with her own body. Back to back alleys and coat hangers? The rich will just go to countries where abortions are allowed. The Chinese now have laws regarding how many children a woman should bear. Some Catholics consider any form of birth control other than coitus interruptus to be abortion. The slippery slope you mention could have to do with practical issues such as population control on one side and abortion as a form of unwarranted birth control on the other.
Back to the OP, sound memories occur in a fetus at 30 weeks, touch occurs earlier. So what is the first possible memory?

vibrations of the mothers body, heartbeat, walking, talking, these things would form waves in the fluid surrounding the fetus, massaging the body. That would or should form the first memories.

and my friend when there are too many lives, life becomes cheap and lives will be used in horrible ways. The youngest, the weakest , the smallest will fall victim to atrocities that would make us all here vomit.

ironshrink.com/2006/03/can-memor … rough-dna/

Bit of a sidestep but worthy of discussion, I don’t mind at all.
Here’s a link of Sacks’s talking about the question directly. I can’t remember if he answers it, but see for yourself:

ted.com/talks/lang/en/oliver … minds.html

My ‘Wheel of Atlantis’… I posted this on a Theory of Mind Theorist website, so some of the terminology is his, but I think it’s common enough that you’ll slug through it, I do a cognitive breakdown of my earliest memory, which is formulation to a central aspect of my philosophy. You’ll find out what parts of the brain I likely activated and stumbled on, and what wasn’t working, and the long term why:

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Thanks for this. LaMark (SIC) wasn’t entirely wrong. Epigenetics is now considering that it takes DNA plus environment to release certain traits and dispositions. As the son of five generations of ministers, I feel the breath on my heels of the hound of heaven. I don’t seem to have the ability to disbelieve certain isms and dogmas.

I believe I have memories from another life, I can’t really prove it.

But I can recall memories from an early age that don’t really make sense in perspective.
It’s only when I started researching on the first world war that I had this sense of nostalgia, except it wasn’t really nostalgia simply a strong feeling that I had been there or somewhere very similiar before.

The memory is almost like a picture because it’s just one instance really.

I can see a field of dead trees, and black ground either blacktop or burnt ground and a red brick wall a short distance away.

And I can remember recalling this memory at least sense I was 3 or 4.

I think I remember my first birthday which was when I took my first steps, that or its the photo of it, but I am pretty sure i have a memory of my actual perspective. I also think I have a memory of breast feeding, or at least I have a memory of a memory of breast feeding… from when I remembered it when I was younger. Not sure.

I also remember being in my crib looking up at the mobil play thing that spins around overhead. Not sure how old I was, but I’m guessing it was there for awhile. I remember getting out of my crib at night. I remember some of my first dreams, which would require a lot more writing, but they weren’t typically good. I absolutely know I remember parts of a road trip to california when I was 2. Aside from that, there are many memories and I’m not sure if I was a toddler or younger…