Money is not motivation...

I wad reading this thread, with the usual look of disapproval I have on my face. Then I came to this part,

and puked a little bit in my mouth.

Money equates to buying power. It doesn’t have some sort of social meaning.
Who ever has the most money gets to own the most resources, usually either more than he needs, or less than he needs.

A fair society would pay everyone enough for work, not too much, not too little.

I think your mind’s a little disoriented here. It’s unethical to offer a bad deal? Why? The person you’re offering it to can just say no. I don’t see why presenting them with an option is a bad thing, even if they don’t want that option. Every time you go into a grocery store, there are bad deals all over the place – things you don’t want being sold for more than you’d want to pay for them. There’s always going to be things that you don’t want to pay for. There are always going to be bad deals. Even in the most ethical world.

To the contrary, making the claim that it’s unethical to offer a bad deal falls into the realm of person opinion. “Bad” isn’t a cold hard fact. “Bad” is the personal opinion. Your position is the opinion. So, no, I think it’s fair to say that I can offer whatever deal I like to whomever I wish, and as long as they have the option to decline the deal, there’s nothing unethical. I can offer to buy their car for 1 dollar, and as long as they can say “No, my car’s worth more than that to me,” there’s nothing wrong with my offer.

The only way to remove all bad deals would be to take away trade altogether. Ironically, most people prefer trade, so offering them the deal of, “We cab take away all bad deals, but we must also completely dismember society and trade and you have to go back to living in the wild” would be the ultimate bad deal.

You can’t have trade without bad deals. There will ALWAYS be bad deals. There will always be one person selling a car for more than another person wants to pay for it, there will always be one person selling food for more than another wants to pay for it, there will always be people who just don’t want to pay for what other people are offering. That’s not unethical, that’s just normal, that’s just life. I don’t go up to every person whose offering something that I don’t want and say “You immoral bastard!” and I doubt you do either. I sincerely doubt that you actually believe bad deals are unethical.

I think it is unethical if the person has to accept the bad deal.
For example only a hand full of people sell water, but charge very much for it.
That’s just an example. Water isn’t monopolized.

But if something like water got owned by someone, all of it, then they sold it for too much, that would be a form of exploitation.

i agree. hence me saying this:

“I think your mind’s a little disoriented here.”

You are too generous, this mind is greatly disoriented here.

“It’s unethical to offer a bad deal?”

When I read just the above, I get the impression the person extending the deal has made the moral judgment the deal is a bad one. They have made the offer of the deal and the judgment it is a bad one. That does sound unethical to me. The offer hasn’t even reached my senses in its entirety for my judgment to come into play regarding its equability or its subjective moral nature. The word “deal” itself has a connotation of being good, as in the expression that was a real deal. If the person extending the offer has reached the moral judgment it is bad, it rather negates it as being a deal.

My confusion, was in regard to where the moral judgment took place. If an offer of employ is extended and I judge it to be lacking in mutually equitable benefit then I would not likely consider it a deal and that perhaps could be defined as a difference in opinion, in which case negotiation could take place to meet more equitably in the middle of our opinions.

In consideration I think I’m perhaps less disoriented then you have assessed. On the grounds alone that everyone does it has little to do with whether it is ethical or not. Perhaps you have pointed out where within our trade practices room for improvement resides.

No, there’s no amount of improvement that can eliminate bad deals without eliminating trade altogether. Say I’m selling an apple for 50 cents, but it’s a bad deal to you because you wouldn’t buy an apple for any more than 25 cents. So, one solution – lower the price to 25 cents. Maybe the costs of obtaining the apple was more than 25 cents, so now, suddenly, it’s a bad deal for me. We haven’t removed the bad deal, we’ve just switched who it’s bad for.

There will always be people selling things for more than other people want to pay for them. That’s not bad, that’s not immoral, that’s just life. Don’t pay for it. Just say no. It’s quite easy. Not a moral issue at all. Yes, I think you’re quite disoriented.

“No,”

That sounds relatively certain. Best of luck with that.

Who ever said it was my effort to eliminate, I simply recognized that there was room (opportunity) for improvement that could take place. Sort of like moving half way there in repeated increments will never get you there but does get you closer. In many human endeavors, the closer you are to the target the easier it is to hit it. I believe to mitigate is possible and perhaps to eliminate is not, but I’m going to leave some wiggle room with regard to the ‘impossible to eliminate’ conclusion as circumstances that make something appear impossible, some times, can be changed.

Carry on.

“I think your mind’s a little disoriented here. It’s unethical to offer a bad deal? Why?”

  1. Because of what I think is a definition of ethical? Clearly, you think I am mistaken in that belief. So please define ethical in such a way that the behavior would fall within its domain.

  2. What if the person doesn’t have the capacity to recognize it is a bad deal and you are so warm and trustworthy looking in your presentation the person trusts you mistakenly. Have to told them YOU think it is a bad deal or have you “sugar coated” it to appear as something other then the bad deal YOU have judged it to be? And what of their circumstance? Could there be something unusual about this persons circumstance that you are taking advantage of with your bad deal offer.

  3. Because “you” recognize it as a “bad” deal. What part of ethical includes someone else receiving something “bad” at your offer, knowing it is bad? It would be just as unethical of the person to accept your judgement of a bad deal with the knowledge it was a great deal. That happens fairly often too, but just because it happens all the time doesn’t make it ethical.

If you had an antique and took it in for valuation and the person you brought it to sensed you had no idea what you held and offered you pennies on the dollar of what it was worth, would that be offering a bad deal? And further let’s say that person took the antique, in good faith, to two other dealers who didn’t know what it was and they offered a similar fraction of its value, yet you do know, do you think that is ethical?

  1. I think it’s unethical because the word “bad” came up in the description of the “deal”.

And you have the nads to judge the state of my mind? That’s some dreadful style.

Wow, this thread is a couple years old. Interesting.

Anyway, I don’t think you’ve noticed that we seem to be using the term ‘bad deal’ differently – or rather, I think you have noticed, and you just haven’t bothered with trying to correct the situation.

My example of a ‘bad deal’ was somebody selling an apple for 50c, and somebody else thinking it’s a bad deal because they’re not willing to pay more than 25c for it.

Your example of a ‘bad deal’ was somebody deliberately and knowingly lying to someone about the value of something they owned so they could get it for pennies on the dollar. Basically ripping someone off because of their ignorance.

I think there’s a pretty big difference between the first example and the second one. I have no reason to think there’s anything unethical going on in the apple example – someone is selling something at a certain price, and someone else is unwilling to buy it.

The second one definitely has more questionable ethics. I wouldn’t say it’s quite as unethical as stealing, but it’s pretty darn close.

But, if you think it’s unethical to offer an apple for 50c to someone who doesn’t want to pay that much for an apple, please, tell me why.

The real absurdity lies within the concept of earning a living. Think about that one for a moment.

Some humor lays in taking colloquialisms to be literal statements. But very little truth lays there.

Earning a living is not a literal statement. If it was changed to, amassing resources so that our bodies may still function and parts of our lives will be easier, would you feel better?

Also for your edification:

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, doesn’t only refer to chains.

A leopard cannot change its stripes, is not only about leopards.

And, A picture is worth a thousand words, does not mean that it is an exact number.

Just answering the question as you asked it.

“My example of a ‘bad deal’ was somebody selling an apple for 50c, and somebody else thinking it’s a bad deal because they’re not willing to pay more than 25c for it.”

In the example above; the person on the receiving end of the offer has made the judgement that it is bad and says nothing about the one offering it thinking it is bad.

Your question, however, was worded differently. You asked; “It is unethical to offer a bad deal? Why?”

Earlier I wrote: “When I read just the above, I get the impression the person extending the deal has made the moral judgment the deal is a bad one. They have made the offer of the deal and the judgment it is a bad one. That does sound unethical to me. The offer hasn’t even reached my senses in its entirety for my judgment to come into play regarding its equability or its subjective moral nature. The word “deal” itself has a connotation of being good, as in the expression that was a real deal. If the person extending the offer has reached the moral judgment it is bad, it rather negates it as being a deal.”

And you respond with this?
“Anyway, I don’t think you’ve noticed that we seem to be using the term ‘bad deal’ differently – or rather, I think you have noticed, and you just haven’t bothered with trying to correct the situation.”

So essentially you are no longer asking why offering a bad deal is unethical. You recognize it. Thanks.

The concept of earning a living fits well within a fictitious moral metanarrative.

It suggests how people ought to live as and be.

Please extrapolate on that.

I recognize that there are instances where offering a bad deal can play a part in unethical behavior.

The statement ‘offering a bad deal is unethical’ is too broad, too unqualified; if you told that to someone outside of the context of this conversation, they would probably think of an example like the one I thought of – selling something at a price somebody else doesn’t want to pay – and would not understand what’s so unethical about it. There is nothing inherently unethical about offering something at a price that someone else is unwilling to pay for it.

So please try to recognize what I really did agree to, rather than just saying ‘Nananana I won.’

Money is the religion and mass ritual of the state whom has become god as the center. We live in a monetary theocracy folks.

You are the one that believes it, shouldn’t you do it? Stop being lazy and earn your own way. :smiley:

Everybody that participates in it is conditioned to still others just go along with all because of coercion.

I’m sorry, I think I know what you are trying to say, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Please rewrite that sentence.