An Introduction to Job

Then you can see the importance of humility, and of fearing God insofar as it is a humble posture. Part of it is being open to precisely what you describe, or to recognizing our insufficiencies and how others excel.

It’s a difference that enables us to progress.

You’re right, fearing God need not come with this feeling. My point in the OP in fact is that we should not feel this way, and that Job especially should not feel this way. Instead we should take pride and joy in ourselves.

No, not really. I was shifting the word, to show that it has nothing to do with relative greatness. Being humble is generally looked at as having a restrained self-image, if not something more reducing, like thinking oneself small. I have no need for that, really, in relation to animals, babies, oceans, deities. I can react to them without having an ongoing attitude about myself. I need not have a restrained self-evaluation.
I deliberately used humble in a situation where one does not, generally, consider oneself, as a whole less than the other. In the end, I think we are better off without the word humble, especially as a goal.

There is no need to fear a loving parent.

But these do not need to be coupled. I can have the same reaction to an artist or musician who does something I love that I would not have done - perhaps I could, perhaps not, who knows. I don’t need to compare myself to have a full appreciation for someone else.

Humility includes this idea of thinking oneself less, as if this was necessary to appreciate or respect the other.

And fear…that’s a sign there is a problem.

[/quote]
But it seemed like, at the end of your OP, you were suggesting that we both fear and trust, that both are necessary.

I still think we’re on the same page more or less! I don’t want humility as the goal. I certainly don’t want us to always think of ourselves as lesser. Also, humility is not a replacement for fear of God, which is much richer in its meaning I think. I shouldn’t have confused the situation, or my own views, by translating it into humility.

Fear of God is better left as I tried to express it in the OP, as the fear that we can only feel as we stand naked (before God).

To stand naked before a loving parent takes fear and trust. Both at the same time. Fear, because we never really know what to expect. Trust, because we trust them to do what is right. Or to respond to us in a way that is right.

The more we experience good results the more the fear will diminish and the trust will change, becoming less trust and more assurance and confidence in our nudity.

Have you read the book of Job? This is the problem at the beginning of the book, or why the satan doubts Job. He thinks that God’s “fence” around Job has made it easy for Job to fear God. That God’s fence has taken the fear out of fearing God. Hence the satan wants the fence removed so as to put the fear back into fearing God and to really test Job’s mettle.

Hopefully the above example shows why, or how, both fear and trust are at play. And don’t get me wrong: I think our fear of God is meant to dissolve over time, as we become more and more assured of God’s ways and confident in our nudity, just as Job was before his testing.

(But this still only remains the half of it though, this posture of fearing–>trusting God. The other half, or what I really wanted to pronounce in my OP even if it was confused, or I was confused on certain details, is that this is not enough. That this is just the beginning (of wisdom). Fearing/trusting God puts us in a position of pretty extreme dependence (and humility!) even as it allows our confidence to build. The next step is really taking pride in ourselves. More than this it is fulfilling our calling to image God, so that God can fear–>trust us as well.)

Eating from the tree of knowledge and standing naked before God, could be seen as a kind of self recognition. Through our lives we gain extra depth to this, where a dog would see its reflection in the mirror and think its another dog, humans understand ‘this is who we are and what we have done’.

The Chinese man who drives a BMW which isn’t a BMW but a fraudulently made version of it, may be driving along in his car thinking how great his life is. Then one day he will suddenly feel like he’s driving a stolen car and feel naked and dirty to that truth. He will consider all the work that went into the original and know that the copy has given nothing to those who done the work, who thought out all the problems and resolved them.

In many ways life is like the layers of an onion, with each ‘revelation’ we strip back another layer and get closer to the core truth.

I believe that “fear of god” has more sinister origins.
Some people can say how it’s positive, but it’s not positive.
Fear or derivatives of fear are not forms of true respect or humility, they are based in danger and suppression.

Perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to say that, we fear how god would perceive our nakedness. The iniquities in our hearts and the recognition of self as compared to how we perceive god to be, or how we think he would view us. How can whatever we are be pure enough to transcend the world and enter heaven ~ when we see ourselves as the world [or of it].

Quite but then aren’t they a product of simpler times. How can you judge them with your world weary conventional views. How can you not. Gods message should be timeless, I believe man and man alone wrote the bible, if God does exist he was foolish enough to let them, blasphemous as that is.

Job makes little sense to a sophisticated person, he’s asking Satan to give Job trials to see if he is worthy of his piousness and purity of faith before God, why on Earth would you bother, being God, you already know his worth. And yes this might be to teach people that ultimately God is right always, but then that’s already intrinsic to your faith? What need of trite stories when the truth is already known? I personally think Job shows a side of God that is not as perfect as it is in later stories, it is after all the oldest of the book of the bible; it clearly reveals a religion that goes from almost omniscience to always perfectly omniscient. I have to wonder why, and I have to think that is because of the way religion tends to work for people, without absolutes things get controversial. Our father who art in heaven hallowed be his claim.

If God is perfect there should be no need to test anyone. God already knows all, and wasting your time teaching people who should already know he cannot be tested or wrong about anything ever, see x and y OT, is banal.

The inner voice is most probably purely internal, so weather or not God exists religion is about how we see ourselves as compared to divinity. One may in contemplation arrive at an idea that God exists, then the inner voice is a separate process comparing things to however we see god, or think he would act morally. Even if we thought God didn’t say anything to us, we may still assume a comparative ~ we’d still wonder what we had to do to please the non-present father - so to say.

Is there no need to test ourselves?

It seems to me the final lesson to be gained from the story (regardless of the many within) is basically, “If you can’t beat them, join them”.

That’s right! Fear of God is something that can only be experienced in nudity. Or by not hiding. (Someone who says they fear God while filling a storehouse with supplies is a liar.)

Not sure how to take your last comment though. Are you suggesting that we should not see ourselves as being of the world?

In regards to this it is worth noting that Job arises as dust. He does not in any way deny his worldliness but rather he proudly reveals it and revels in it.

Is divinity/heaven the same as the world? Is god the earth or something beyond the physical, as are our souls, no. this is where I get confused with Christian philosophy, what kind of spirituality does the earth yield? Can we after the resurrection live forever here, wont we over populate etc, etc. For me the earth is evolution, it is cyclic and brings death to its children, it is the devil ~ in a kind of templar manner.

Arises as dust? that’s fascinating I wonder how that is meant.

I don’t think these are separable if that’s what you mean. Heaven is on earth. The Heavenly City descends to earth. We do not simply ascend to the Heavenly City.

With God all things are possible.

The earth is your home. It’s what you’re made of. It can be a positive force so long as it is treated and channeled positively. It is powerful though and can certainly bring death to those who are unequal to it.

The passage is 42:6, typically rendered as Job repenting in dust and ashes. I think a better or fuller rendering is that Job is consoled about dust and ashes and that Job arises as and from dust and ashes.

He does not cease to be dust but rather he is dust more confidently. Like the ostrich, Job is now proud of his wings.

There would need to be something near to a total transformation of earth to make it heaven; would that still be earth?
I mean if you get rid of death and disease etc, then you get rid of what life is about and hence what the world is about.

Lets assume that’s true, to prevent overcrowding he would need to grow the planet endlessly, and change the laws of physics so it doesn’t get to heavy and become a black hole etc. …I am using extremes in order to take the argument to potentials.

I’d say I am mind and that is not physical, hence earth is not what my soul is made of.

I have been contemplating something recently which may be similar; the thoughts are kinda like my earthly form is concerned about its mortality, but I have to remind it that it is physical, it has never lived and had consciousness. To it they are illusions that it cannot even know, because the only thing about the dust that thinks is not of the dust.

Perhaps job thought the opposite to that? In other words, the dust is the thinker.

doesn’t make sense to me, thats like saying rocks think?

Why on earth would you think that life is about death and disease? That’s not what life is.

Water into wine. The realm of possibility expands. That’s what it means: with God all things are possible because with God new things are possible.

Stop confining yourself to what is possible right now.

Okay. But you are a body too. Or at least you have a body, and some might think this is an important, wonderful thing. A deep part of our human identity and not just the epitomy of death and disease.

I don’t think that Job thought in the dualism that you do. Job’s humanity is not defined as a mind that thinks but as an earthling (adam, or of the earth).

I meant that they are part of life not the reason or purpose of it. I made other points there too that you missed; how do we define the earth as anything other than what it is now. If it is changed beyond recognition they it is no longer the earth. Same as if you were changed beyond recognition, you wouldn’t be you.

I am not, I am just making the philosophical point, that if you change something then it is no longer what it formerly was. ‘Water into wine’ here means that god would have to change things illogically;

Change the rules of the universe such that the earth can be grown impossibly large to cope with ever greater binary exponents of population expansion [which goes into zillions and on into denumerable amounts].

Resurrection paradox; during a war an innocent farmer is killed, his body blown apart by cannon, a part of his arm flies off into a pigpen and get eaten by a pig. A priest later eats the pig.
When the priest and the farmer are later resurrected, who gets the former cells of their bodies? They were once the farmers arm, then become a constituent part of the priest, so rightly are part of both.

Okay. But you are a body too. Or at least you have a body, and some might think this is an important, wonderful thing a deep part of our human identity.

For me it is dust, the only thing about it that is human is mind and information. My identity is formed from evolutional and environmental informations, then when I am born I take that info on and it becomes part of me. As I grow into myself that info is subsumed by who I am I.e. my soul or that of it which is incarnated in this form.

In short what I am saying is that being human is all about human ‘being’.

Well there is part of the indo-European spiritual culture which relates to that, in celtic lore there was a belief that we are all children of ‘dis’ ~ grown out of the earth, and I think there are similar things in most ancient religions.
He may be correct, that in some animist way the earth itself contains life, and then it would be true that our spirit and souls are literally within the earth. I’d have to believe in the biblical creation to see adam as the living form of all that though. creation theories often think of us as arising from some creation mound, but now we have to take that back nearly 15 billion years to before there were planets even ~ for it to be correct that is!

Ancient peoples didn’t have the same way of seeing things as us, the element of earth wouldn’t have simply referred to matter, chemicals, mud, it would have been a spiritual thing.

interesting!

Changed beyond recognition? Even so, to be changed beyond recognition is not to be changed in one’s essential being. To be beyond recognition is to no longer be recognizable as such. It is not to no longer be such.

In the case of water to wine the water is changed in its essential being. It is not just no longer recognizable as water, it is no longer water. And you got it: God would have to change things illogically to accomplish this miracle. That’s the point. All things being possible for God means that God can change the essential being of things. God can do things that were not possible before. With God, what is possible can change. The conditions of possibility can expand (with God) and contract (with sin and death).

We need to careful however. For instance, you go on to say:

From death to life (or life to death) there is a change in the essential being of something. But if we consider the life before it died, and the life after it is resurrected, there is not a change in essential being there. There is not even a change in recognizability (Jesus’ apostles still recognized Jesus after the resurrection. He was more beautiful, yes, but not essentially different or beyond recognition).

So in the case of resurrection there is a consistency underlying the essential change from life to death to life again. God does what is impossible, making what is dead live again, but the new life is not essentially different from the old.

As to the cells that you mention, these are not part of our essential being. A body is. The cells that constitute that body are not. So with resurrection, it is not a matter of restoring every original detail or spec of dust that once constituted us. Rather it is a matter of restoring our essential being, i.e., bringing us back to life, and making us more beautiful in the process.

So what, you’re a computer? You know, for all the effort to find one there has still been no clear dividing line established between the physical and the mental. Maybe one day we’ll be able to separate them and download your mind but even then it would still require some kind of machine platform to function. So would you, as such, be essentially different? Would that machine platform not be part of your essential being, playing the essential role that your body/brain currently plays?

Things can be made new. Impossible things can happen. Yet essential being can remain the same.

I think its possible to change what we ‘be’ or ‘are’ too. If say your DNA was changed massively.

Sure, but not if the objective is to conserve form as with an earthly mortality, or any preservation of self.

Good point! :slight_smile: Problem is that this idea is transcended when we consider the original being of the priest, his resurrection would necessarily include the farmers arm, as would the farmers. If however in the resurrection we all get new bodies in the form of the one we left this world with ~ a replica, then your position holds.
When you say Jesus was ‘more beautiful’ it seems to me that he was without body, but we could say he had a different kind of physicality, one that isn’t biological or at least not the way we are. …I think biology is very temporary in its design.

I don’t know, it all sounds like we end up with a different world and body, and as like how I’d envision an otherworld. Immortality for me requires not just a different world but a different universe or reality/realm ~ a perpetual one! This universe is so transient it has no features of eternity bar perhaps our minds/spirit.

No I am not a computer because currently they don’t think nor have consciousness, and I’d argue that they cannot and never will ~ even artificially made neural network which are essentially like our brains.
There you’ll find the dividing line! I have also made arguments on numerous threads for the absolute divisibility between mind and physicality.
If a walked into a machine and another me came out the other end, then it wouldn’t be me. Imagine if the old you still remained ~ to see the contrast.

Change A into B and you no longer have A.
.

I guess the question is: why would we want to undertake such a change? Is our human nature so bad?

I understand wanting to accomplish the miracle from death to life (my hope is in the resurrection of the dead), but not so much the change to entirely new life forms…

I don’t think it is essential that every original spec of dust be restored in the resurrection. What matters is that we are restored. (I’m constituted now by a completely different set of atoms than I was when I was born, yet I am the same person.) I also think it would be wrong to say that Jesus no longer has a physical body. Thomas proves that Jesus is still flesh and blood after the resurrection, no? But I also see the the possibility of a new body. A machine body for instance. Ultimately, the body is more beautiful with resurrection, but this leaves a lot of room. Is the body still biological? Or is it mechanical or something else altogether?

I probably give the biological more credit than you do!

Sure… But what you’re talking about here is a change in essential nature. From a leaf into a dog for instance. Or from water into wine. This kind of logic is at play in resurrection, but the resurrection formula is more A into B into A’, where A’ is still A, but simply more beautiful.

our spiritual human nature is greater than the universe [no offence to its creator], for me it’s a change into what we truly are, a shrugging off of the clay which embalms us.

I agree though for different reasons [I am happy to think of bodies as throwaway objects, although lives aren’t].
The philosophical point was that what things ‘are’ can be changed ~ potentially.

Another very good point! Really we are talking about the resurrection of self then, and whatever that requires to maintain its integrity. Personally I don’t think an organic body is required for that, and a machine one would be an abomination; our ‘reality’ is not the object of our being. We may end up replacing humans with soul-less artificial life-forms which mimic what humans are like yet are not human [they don’t have our reality].

How does Thomas prove that Jesus is still flesh and blood? Consider that everything we know is informational, if you replaced our memories with other informations we would perceive a different thing ~ or indeed a thing we expect to see. If Jesus was a soul-body, when you touch him we could be getting information about his being, which constitutes the same subjectively experienced thing as if he had an actual body. Everything you experience about yourself is mental [even if derived from sensory info]. This is why I think it is entirely possible that a thought body could be experienced in exactly the same way as our experience of a physical body.

Ok, and the above is more beautiful imho, flesh is dirty, when one has a spiritual OOB experience, the return to bodily form is akin to getting out of a bath and putting on tramps clothing.
Btw ‘more beautiful’ is not the same as A, something has changed even if we have the same essentiality. What’s the change here? For me it all points to heaven rather than earth.

_

Where I would glorify the flesh you would stress its dirtiness, as if this is a bad thing. You would emphasize the spiritual and the heavenly over the physical and the earthly.

This may be good sense, for a lot of bodies are filthy and dirty. A lot of souls have done terrible things and so are filthy. The soul itself is the union of dirt and spirit and so we are all dirty in a deeply original way.

But here is the thing: Of its filthiness our body (and soul) must certainly be cleansed. Regarding its dirtiness however our body (and soul) must be glorified. Not only because of the greatness of our maker but because of the greatness inherent in earth itself and our own greatness.

We are not to “shrug off the clay that embalms us” but rather we are to stand naked before God and reveal to God what clay, and the human being that the clay has become with God’s spirit, is capable of. Like Job we must call God to judge our worth.

Our dirtiness in this sense is to be affirmed just as our spiritualness is. It is our filthiness that is to be denied. The things that we have done or failed to do.

Finally, Thomas proves that Jesus is still flesh and blood by doubting and touching the resurrected Jesus’ wounds.