An Ethics Forum

[Trevor]

I think an Ethics forum could stand up on its own.

Maybe in place of the somewhat inactive Linguistics forum?

And while we're at it, merge the Essays and Creative Writing forums together and the Arts with Mundane Babble, but with consideration of a name change.

[FilmSnob]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Carleas]

My usual response to suggestions for new forums is that the real estate is costly, and the costs need to be factored in to the benefits of subdividing topics. Certainly discussions of ethics have their place in the Philosophy forum. The benefit to a subdivision is that it tends to encourage topics on a given issue, and ideally to improve the depth of discussion in both the new forum and the forum from which the topics will be pulled.

I appreciate that you've accounted for the cost of the increased real-estate by suggesting where it could be made up. Linguistics is under-used, and I've long found Essays and Theses.

An Ethics forum has been brought up before, and could be viable. I'd like to hear from more people about this suggestion. If you don't mind, I'd like to add a poll to your OP to see where people's feelings lie.

Update: Poll added.

[Only_Humean]

I think an Ethics forum could stand up on its own.

Maybe in place of the somewhat inactive Linguistics forum?

And while we're at it, merge the Essays and Creative Writing forums together and the Arts with Mundane Babble, but with consideration of a name change.

I'd be OK seeing linguistics archived and the threads moved to Philosophy (though there are a few threads that are purely academic linguistics).

Mundane Babble could maybe do with a namechange anyway, people get offended when general threads get moved there because of the title.

As for Ethics, I'm not sure. I think either we keep Philosophy as Philosophy, or we have subfora for Ethics, Epistemology, Philosophy of Mind, Metaphysics, and so on. Why split just one off? Linguistics petered out, and the threads maybe got less attention than they would have done in the Phil. forum.

In a choice between those two, I'd say keep them all together just for ease of navigation and oversight. If others find Philosophy too busy, I can understand their wish to split things up.

[tentative]

There has never been a successful specialty forum or sub-forum in the history of ILP. They all start with a great deal of enthusiasm from a few people and then slowly die. I participated in a few of them for a short time, and with Carleas' blessing, even started one. They all failed.

This might be the wrong place, but... whether ILP or any other internet discussion board, most members expect and participate in what I would call "hit and run" participation. People come in to read a three sentence gloss on any subject, and post a three sentence gloss in return. Very few want in-depth discussion of anything, being satisfied with superficial questions and answers. I don't know where in-depth discussion occurs, but it isn't on the internet. There have been, and will be, some lively and interesting discussions in ILP. But they are little nuggets scattered here and there. The overwhelming amount of dross is the rule, not the exception.

I should know. I'm the poster child for inane babble.

[PavlovianModel146]

I think that Arts, Music & Entertainment stands alone quite well and is sufficient in the sense that you know exactly what you are getting when you go there. Don't forget that it was only a few years ago that the Forum was just, "Visual Arts," and the other applicable threads got ported in from Mundane Babble. I've also noticed that we've seen an increase in TV & Music related threads since then, granted, that may not necessarily be what you are going after as a Philosophy-First Fourm...but you are trying to encourage discussion and MB being the Forum also for Music/TV/Movie related stuff didn't encourage such threads to be made at all, in my opinion.

I don't care whether or not we change the name of, "Mundane Babble," but I really don't see why we would.

I agree with the merger of Essays and Creative Writing. I also think that's what it should be called, "Essays & Creative Writing," or you can make Essays a sub-forum of CW as opposed to its own Forum.

Finally, are we talking about an Ethics Forum or Sub-Forum? I don't really care that much either way, but I would vote no to the former and yes to the latter.

SIDENOTE: Arts, Music & Entertainment has about 1/3rd of the posts Psychology has. The difference is that Psychology, I believe, has been here as long as ILP has while AM&E, in its current form, has been around for about two years.

[Faust]

I agree about Essays. Very little used. I think the "serious" philosophical stuff could be moved to the Philosophy board, and the rest could be merged with CW.

[Carleas]

Arts and Mundane Babble seem to hold their own, and they cater to different interests.

Mundane Babble could be renamed, but it wouldn't do anything for the site, and it's kind of an institution (this suggestion might have been dependent on combining Arts and MB, in which case the point is moot).

I think Philosophy is running a little hot, but it's hard to control that. Philosophy will always attract a lot of attention, because it's the first forum on the list, and because this is I Love Philosophy.

Who said "none of the above"? I'd be curious to hear arguments supporting Essays.

[Amorphos]

Most forums don’t need more than 3-4 sections imho.

If the ‘real estate’ costs then why not reduce the amount of forums we already have?

Take a look in ‘View active topics’, the amount of topics and conversations don’t need to be so apportioned out, and it can [and perhaps does] look messy.

More condensed forums look busier and hence more interesting to passers by and occasional users.

[MagsJ]

I have the exact same view as Quetz on this... a more condensed, hence neater look, is the way to go IMO.

[Amorphos]

Something like this perhaps?

current forums [suggestions]

Announcements [doesn’t need its own forum]

Philosophy [covers most everything that aren’t covered in the other sections]

politics

Natural Sciences [perhaps just ‘science’?]

Psychology [how about psychology, morals, ethics? or 'mind' ]

Religion

Essays and Theses
Chamber of Debate
Creative Writing
Art, Music, and Entertainment [all of these could go into one more general forum [the arts, or bardism etc]


Mundane Babble
The Hall of Questions
The Rant House [can all go in; General discussion]


Philosophy (Heavily Moderated), Futurism, ILP Religious Open, Theological Discussions
[not needed ~ can go in other forums].


_

[Carleas]

From Google Analytics, here are the forums ranked by pageviews in the past month (it's not a complete list, I stopped looking when I noticed a significant number of topics outrank the remaining forums):

Philosophy - 9,849
Social Sciences - 1,980
Mundane Babble - 1,928
Religion - 1,668
Hall of Questions - 1,621
Rant House - 1,245
Psychology - 953
Essays and Theses - 725
Natural Sciences - 692
Creative Writing - 343
Art, Music, and Entertainment - 241

Caveat: this only represents the pageviews of the forum page, which is to say that it will not count anyone going to a topic in a forum without going to the forum page, e.g. through "View active topics." It's a useful list because making the forum pages useful is a big reason for dividing the site into forums, but it's not the only reason. For instance, even though Creative Writing is under used, eliminating it would not simply divert those same posts to other forums; a poem posted in Mundane Babble or even AR&E would not be read the same way as it is in the context of a creative writing forum. Without the CW forum, there may be no way to effectively share and discuss personal creative writing. By contrast, a psychology topic in the Natural Science forum would be more or less equivalent.

You may want to revise your list in light of these, Quetz, though I think you're on the right track and I heartily agree with the premise that for the practical purposes of ILP, fewer forums is better. It also seems clear, though, that Philosophy gets significantly more action, a better division would be one that better spreads the load between the forums. Changing "Psychology" to "Mind" is a good start.

[Amorphos]

I absolutely agree that creative writing forum is important irrespective of use. ‘Essays and Theses’ could be merged with CW perhaps?

If one were to change things so drastically we need a few more people to make suggestions imho

'Mundane babble' is a demeaning title as others have stated.

For newcomers to a forum ease of access is crucial, the immediate impression has lost me upon first viewing of many a forum. Too few subject/forum types along with any confusion as to where to put subjects is equally important. I’d say 9 main forums along with a welcome/GD forum at the top, and a help and questions at the bottom usually works best.

Do sub-forums demand as much real estate? If not the GD [general discussion] could hold things like the rant house, hall of questions as well as general discussion.

[PavlovianModel146]

Who said "none of the above"? I'd be curious to hear arguments supporting Essays.

I did. I didn't want Essays archived, I wanted it ported in with Creative Writing.

[PavlovianModel146]

Something like this perhaps?

_

Where is Social Sciences? It's the fourth most used Forum here!

[Trevor]

It might prove more worthwhile to make a proper thread regarding reorganisation, or making some form of announcement to atttract more input as quetzalcoatl mentioned rather than going off my inital ideas. Maybe see what recommendations come to the fore and then have a poll.

Personally, I still maintain that the Essay/CW/and Art forums need some form of contraction. Essays & CW together and the Arts into General Discussion. I've really never seen much there to warrant its place and any serious talk about aesthetics can go into Philosophy.

Current Events is also little used by the looks of things and could be included in General Discussion (as opposed to Mundane Babble), but not as a sub-forum.

And maybe an Ethics forum/sub-forum is unnecessary...is a trial run possible for 3-4 months to see if it encourages activity, if it fails to do so then the idea can be rejected.

[PavlovianModel146]

It might prove more worthwhile to make a proper thread regarding reorganisation, or making some form of announcement to atttract more input as quetzalcoatl mentioned rather than going off my inital ideas. Maybe see what recommendations come to the fore and then have a poll.

Personally, I still maintain that the Essay/CW/and Art forums need some form of contraction. Essays & CW together and the Arts into General Discussion. I've really never seen much there to warrant its place and any serious talk about aesthetics can go into Philosophy.

Current Events is also little used by the looks of things and could be included in General Discussion (as opposed to Mundane Babble), but not as a sub-forum.

And maybe an Ethics forum/sub-forum is unnecessary...is a trial run possible for 3-4 months to see if it encourages activity, if it fails to do so then the idea can be rejected.

1.) Maybe.

2.) We're talking about combining Essays/CW in Staff Discussion right now. The vote is 2-0 so far with only two Mods voting. Arts, Music & Entertainment is about more than just the Arts. It has become a Forum which is about Music, TV, Movies, Video Games, Art, Photography, the whole nine. It was previously just called, "Visual Arts," and was underused at that time.

Honestly, I had scarcely ever seen any threads about Video Games, TV and very few about Music prior to AM&E, so I think it serves its purpose. Once again, it has 1/3rd as many posts as Psychology and has not even been around, in its current form, 1/3rd of the time Psychology has.

3.) Current Events could be ported in Social Sciences, not Mundane Babble. From Social Sciences was Current Events derived. I'd wait until December for that, though, I want people to have an obvious spot to put Presidential Election type threads, for now.

EDIT: Actually, strike number three, except the porting it to SS part.

[Carleas]

Personally, I don't think Creative Writing should be merged with Essays or Arts, but it could be broadened.

As I understand it, Essays was always just for long posts that could be properly placed in other forums. A forum based on OP length seems silly to me. They aren't particularly creative, and the need is better accommodated by relocating them by topic. Some should go to CW, most should go to Philosophy.

Arts as it stands seems to be focused on the consumption of arts. As Pav points out, it's both relatively popular and houses discussions that did not seem to have a place prior to its creation.

One possibility for Creative Writing is to make it Creative Everything, so that we have a clear place for both consumptive and a creative arts. I don't think it would work to combine them, because as I said earlier, the context matters for creative works in a way that it doesn't for persuasive works.

Trevor, I agree that this should be discussed elsewhere...eventually. Here, we have a self-selected group who are particularly interested in what forums should be offered. Once we make a proper thread, we will get a very different crowd, and discussion will almost certainly be less productive. Yes, it disenfranchises anyone who isn't curious about the possibility of an Ethics forum, at some point adding voices drowns out everyone.

I’d say 9 main forums along with a welcome/GD forum at the top, and a help and questions at the bottom usually works best.

I think identifying the appropriate number of forums is a good first step. There are virtually infinite ways to break up discussions, and everyone has their own idea, but there are many fewer reasonable numbers of forums. Plus, once you have a number, people start to feel the pressure to sacrifice luxury forums for utility forums.

Personally, I think 9 is too many. We have 13 main forums now (not counting the Archive), and 7 subforums (again, not counting the Archive). I think we should shoot for 7 main forums, with maybe 3 or 4 subforums.

[Amorphos]

Where is Social Sciences? It's the fourth most used Forum here!

Sorry it was meant to be in there…

Added; politics to the reply

maybe an Ethics forum/sub-forum is unnecessary...is a trial run possible for 3-4 months to see if it encourages activity, if it fails to do so then the idea can be rejected.

Indeed, and perhaps; an ethic concerns a given topic, so I don’t see why a thread about a given ethic cannot go in a related forum.

2.) We're talking about combining Essays/CW in Staff Discussion right now. The vote is 2-0 so far with only two Mods voting. Arts, Music & Entertainment is about more than just the Arts. It has become a Forum which is about Music, TV, Movies, Video Games, Art, Photography, the whole nine. It was previously just called, "Visual Arts," and was underused at that time.

Could ‘entertainment and enlightenment’ cover all areas? Or two forums of the same?

I have noticed at other forums and here that all encompassing threads, of such like as; ‘what are you listening too‘, or ‘what are you reading’ tend to draw all relative material into them. It would be far better if all forms of e.g. music genres and acts etc, and authors + fiction, non-fiction etc, were made into distinct ideas/threads. That way you would have more activity showing instead of multi-age threads, not to mention there would be far, far more on offer to all. More things to get one interested etc.

Personally, I think 9 is too many. We have 13 main forums now (not counting the Archive), and 7 subforums (again, not counting the Archive). I think we should shoot for 7 main forums, with maybe 3 or 4 subforums.

Agreed upon reflection. 7 should cover all our needs, personally I’d also limit the amount if any of sub-forums. I have a thing about 8 as the magic number, the harmonic of the octave etc, has a habit of making something look full or complete.

Perhaps:

1. General discussion

2. Philosophy

3. Politics

4. Entertainment

5. enlightenment

6. Mind [or psychology]

7. Religion

8.?

Maybe GD should go at the bottom, in an attempt to avoid most everything ending up in there, not to mention a possible dumbing down of content.

_

[Trevor]

Enlightenment, Mind, and Religion? Seems like overkill.

1. Philosophy (Possible Ethics sub-forum)
2. Social Sciences
3. Natural Sciences
4. Psychology
5. Religion
6. The Arts (CW sub-forum)
7. General Discussion (HoQ sub-forum)

Rant house?

The rest to be sent into oblivion.

And I still think Current Events can go either into SS main forum or General Discussion.

[fuse]

I think the 3 Social Forums (Babble, HoQ, Rant) could be condensed into one General Discussion, with Hall of Questions as a sub-forum.

I wouldn't mind losing Essays and Theses and Linguistics sub-forum.

Basically, I agree with this:

1. Philosophy (Possible Ethics sub-forum)
2. Social Sciences
3. Natural Sciences
4. Psychology
5. Religion
6. The Arts (CW sub-forum)
7. General Discussion (HoQ sub-forum)

Rant house?

The rest to be sent into oblivion.

And I still think Current Events can go either into SS main forum or General Discussion.

[PavlovianModel146]

GENERAL STATEMENTS:

1.) I don't like, "Entertainment," and, "Enlightenment," because I think those are entirely too vague as Forum Titles. "Entertainment," might work, but I don't want people to get the impression that the Forum is JUST for stuff like Music, TV, Video Games, and Movies, I still want Art & Photography to have an equal place within the Forum because it started out just as, "Visual Arts." I think that it is condensed very well, both by Topics and Title, in its present Forum.

2.) When you talk about distinctive threads, there's nothing that prohibits anyone from doing that. If you want to make a thread about Heavy Metal, make a thread about Heavy Metal. If you want to make it about the TV Show, The Single Guy, then you can do that. You can make a thread about whatever you would like to within that remit. The nature of, "What are you listening to/reading," threads is more sharing than discussion. If you are looking for discussion, it is wise to create a seperate and specific thread.

3.) I think seven is too few, I think that 10 is a nice round number and could be balanced in a 1, 5, 2, 3 type of Format.

4.) I agree with Carleas that E&T should have its threads ported individually to other Forums. I think the same should happen to all of the threads in the archives.

5.) Current Events being ported into Social Sciences is happening very soon.

Here is my idea:

(Heading: ILP)

1.) Help, Site Suggestions, & Announcements



(Heading: Philosophy Forums)

2.) Philosophy

Sub: Linguistics

3.) Social Sciences

4.) Natural Sciences

5.) Psychology & The Mind

6.) Religion




(Heading: The Arts)

7.) Creative Writing

Sub: The Chamber of Debate

8.) Arts, Music & Entertainment




(Heading: Social Forums)

9.) General Discussion (Formerly Mundane Babble)

10.)The Hall of Questions



(Heading: Rants & Raves)

11.) The Rant House (I say it doesn't count because you have to be logged in to even see it)


*****************************

Last thing, I think Philosophy Forums needs to be re-ordered according to usage (by posts) making it:

Philosophy, Religion, Social Sciences, Psychology & The Mind, Natural Sciences

[Trevor]

Well, while we're at it I'm also tempted to suggest doing away with the headings. If the forum numbers are condensed enough it seems a bit redundant to then also divide them?

3.) I think seven is too few, I think that 10 is a nice round number and could be balanced in a 1, 5, 2, 3 type of Format.

Surely the shape of a number is an irrelevant factor in deciding how many forums to have.

I don't know about Chamber of Debate. How much is it used?

And I forgot about the Announcements forum. Another GD sub-forum or just use the Gd forum instead of it? I'll admit I never look in there - who does?

Also, instead of the Ethics forum, or any Philosophy sub-forum, how about a tagging system in place. Might be more difficult, hal;f the time I don't know what I'm talking about let alone be able to categorise it but it might work. A simple [Ethics], [Aesthetics], in the thread title would suffice. Maybe even a little colour differentiation? But now we're getting fancy.

[Amorphos]

What do we want to achieve?

More members, new blood? Or just a more cohesive site for our village dwellers?

Without new blood things can get stale, we all know each others arguments etc.

IF that is part of the desire, how can it be achieved:

Three ways come to mind

1. More expansive topic areas/forums, more easily accessed by a wider variety of people.

2. Google bot. when people search for answers we would want some topics here to come up.

3. People from other forums get linked to here [that’s how I found this place], and friends get told about ILP.

In that sense we could have an ethics forum because not only philosophers are interested in that hence an increase in flow could arise.
Same applies to history, people into that topic are often well educated and would soon find other areas of interest.
Same applies to entertainment, games etc.
Enlightenment may bring in more hippies and new agers, so that depends on if you want more of that ilk to hang around here.

All such areas would find a ‘natural filter’ in the villagers already here.

How about…

4. One word titles to forums e.g. politics, its more accessible [and why is it particularly a science?]. Why natural sciences and not just science.

Does psychology and the mind induce the idea of merely psychology; some people may feel they are not experts in such fields, and shy away from participation.

Other ideas; as an alternative how about having vague characteristic names for areas e.g. at TWC forums they have; the political mud pit, for the welcome forum they have ‘say cheese’. I don’t expect us to use such titles but perhaps we could have some fun coming up with slightly more sophisticated labels for forums e.g. ‘the scribe‘, for all things written, ‘the bard’ for all things to do with entertainment, poetry, music and the arts.

------------------------------------

What about appearance! A simple change in forum colour to something that resembles the colour of a page in a book, a kind of dirty low-light cream [I could do that for you]. A few graphics [I can also do this] and perhaps a theme e.g. a Victorian ladies and gentleman’s club, something more contemporary or futuristic, a pub even?


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[FilmSnob]

No more EandT??

That makes me sad... Why not just move all EandT to creative writing?