Intolerance and Racism

[monkey man]

English is my second language and I find I still struggle with it. I find that the only way I can improve my language is to practice it in written form and when speaking to others. But at the same time I find that others do not accept this. They are critical, cruel, intolerant, and racist. Do you consider yourself to be intolerant of those with English as a second language?

Different cultures and languages tend to have vastly different ways of expression. Can different cultures communicate?

I have come to the final conclusion that different cultures cannot communicate and it essentially leaves me silent - without a voice.

[Flannel Jesus]

I don't really care if it's your first, second, third, etc language. It's people who use it poorly -- including people who were raised with that as their primary/only language -- that are sometimes difficult to tolerate.

You, for example, write with more skill than some English-as-first-language posters here. Bravo for that. You're doing a great job.

This is a philosophy forum, and in philosophy of all subjects, accurate and clear use of language is imperative. I think we can be tolerant of typos, minor spelling errors, minor grammatical mistakes, etc. but when it's so bad that you're pretty much incapable of communicating your ideas to other people in a way that they understand, I don't think there's any need for tolerance of that.

That's my opinion.

[James L Walker]

English is my second language and I find I still struggle with it. I find that the only way I can improve my language is to practice it in written form and when speaking to others. But at the same time I find that others do not accept this. They are critical, cruel, intolerant, and racist. Do you consider yourself to be intolerant of those with English as a second language?

Different cultures and languages tend to have vastly different ways of expression. Can different cultures communicate?

I have come to the final conclusion that different cultures cannot communicate and it essentially leaves me silent - without a voice.

I don't like people speaking other languages in front of me that is not English especially when I know they can speak it where they intentionally choose not to. It makes me think that they are intentionally hiding something from me. How do I know they are not talking about me? There I said it.

If I went to another country I would atleast try to learn the basics of their language and have a translator readily. Show us the same respect.

[phyllo]

Different cultures and languages tend to have vastly different ways of expression. Can different cultures communicate?

Sure they can. The main problem is that people who only speak one language do not understand the differences - they assume that there is one correct language and anyone not conforming to it is just plain stupid. It's pure ignorance.

[monkey man]

Sure they can. The main problem is that people who only speak one language do not understand the differences - they assume that there is one correct language and anyone not conforming to it is just plain stupid.

Even though my English is reasonably good it takes me forever to read something and understand its meaning (that which most others immediately understand and take for granted). When I write, it takes a lot of time to convey meaning.

Words are easy to understand but meanings are something of a completely different nature.
But there are also many words where there is no translation or even concepts - the translation of a single word may take pages and use metaphor to illustrate meaning.

Your statement is probably why most of my friends are bilingual (Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Chinese, Italian, Spanish). Bonded by the English language while focused on understanding and conveying meanings. We do not take things for granted when trying to communicate.


I heard of this song which explains a lot to me...

Speak English Or Die

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??

[Moreno]

Yeah, you know the people in Holland boast high fluency in English, but it's still a second language there. Assholes.

[Fent]

Sure they can. The main problem is that people who only speak one language do not understand the differences - they assume that there is one correct language and anyone not conforming to it is just plain stupid.

Even though my English is reasonably good it takes me forever to read something and understand its meaning (that which most others immediately understand and take for granted). When I write, it takes a lot of time to convey meaning.

Words are easy to understand but meanings are something of a completely different nature.
But there are also many words where there is no translation or even concepts - the translation of a single word may take pages and use metaphor to illustrate meaning.

Your statement is probably why most of my friends are bilingual (Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Chinese, Italian, Spanish). Bonded by the English language while focused on understanding and conveying meanings. We do not take things for granted when trying to communicate.


I heard of this song which explains a lot to me...

Speak English Or Die

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??

I am quite sure the lyrics aren't serious. The members of SOD are known jokers.

[monkey man]

I am quite sure the lyrics aren't serious. The members of SOD are known jokers.

For me the intention of the song is not important, it is the meaning of the song.

When it comes to a forum like this, we do not know who is on the other end. The underlying assumption is that this is a forum for people who have English as a first language. There are several examples in threads of intolerance (some of these are fake, trolling, or by those trying to hide who they are).

The issue does essentially come down to
"Speak English or Die", or
Fuck off! I do not want to read your shit English skills. Come back when I am capable of understanding you.
The underlying assumption is that a person who cannot convey concepts in the language of choice is dumb, stupid, and ignorant.

Will a person master the art of English when faced with this?
Does a person learn the art of English in a bubble (with nobody to interact with)?

Of course, I forgot, dumb people are incapable of learning.

M.M.

[Calrid]

No because despite being English I have English as a second language, the first being gibberish.

Incidentally English is the lingua Franca these days, but no Englishman can claim that he speaks it better than anyone. English people have been accused of being lazy in the past for not choosing to learn second languages but I say those who chastise are putards!

The English language is a beast, historically it only became a common tongue because we killed a hell of a lot of people. If anyone had any sense then Esperanto would be the lingua Franca.

[monkey man]

Don't get me wrong Caldrid. I am not trying to say that those who have English as a first language are the only intolerant one. Almost my entire culture of origin is intolerant of those who speak certain languages. It is a given of all cultures and languages. Does this then imply the view should not be challenged or the question should not be raised (in any language)?

Gibberish appears to be the real universal language

[Calrid]

Don't get me wrong Caldrid. I am not trying to say that those who have English as a first language are the only intolerant one. Almost my entire culture of origin is intolerant of those who speak certain languages. It is a given of all cultures and languages. Does this then imply the view should not be challenged or the question should not be raised (in any language)?

Gibberish appears to be the real universal language

I cannot but agree. But then the human race is full of gibberish speakers.

[Flannel Jesus]

The underlying assumption is that a person who cannot convey concepts in the language of choice is dumb, stupid, and ignorant.

I don't think the assumption is that they're dumb, stupid, ignorant.
I think the assumption is that this is an English-speaking community that depends on communication, and if you can't do it, what reason do you even have for being around? Just wasting bandwidth and lessening the enjoyment of the other members.

This isn't a public site anyway, it's not like there's any moral reason why it should just be some sort of equal-opportunity forum for anybody. It's a private site owned by a single individual (or maybe multiple), and if they want to limit it to English speakers, that's their right. You can choose who you let in your house, they can choose who they let in their forum, no? They could limit the forum to Klu-Klux-Klan members if they wanted to.

So, there's no moral reason why discriminating against non-english-speakers is wrong, so the only other way to approach it is from a practical standpoint -- do you have a practical reason why people should tolerate poor communication?

[monkey man]

Practical reason:

Poor communication is not always the fault of the writer.
Poor communication can also be the fault of the reader.
Poor communication can also be the fault of both participants.

So, I agree poor communication is not an ideal scenario.

Does a lack of tolerance fit into the category of good communication skills?
If so, give me a practical reason of how a lack of tolerance fits into good communication.

M.M.

[Flannel Jesus]

you didn't give a practical reason, you just gave blame statements.

lack of tolerance is practical because it limits posters to people who can understand each other, thereby increasing the efficacy of all conversations and the board as a whole.

[Calrid]

you didn't give a practical reason, you just gave blame statements.

lack of tolerance is practical because it limits posters to people who can understand each other, thereby increasing the efficacy of all conversations and the board as a whole.

Fascist.

[monkey man]

Observation:

Lack of efficacy with ILP forum

Hypotheses:

Efficacy is negatively impacted upon by certain individuals who lack certain communication skills

Solution:

Display intolerance towards these individuals.

Outcome:

a) These individuals will leave the ILP forum
b) Efficacy within ILP will increase - conditional upon outcome a)

The phrase that comes to mind: "to draw the longbow"

M.M.

[Flannel Jesus]

well, seeing as you can't provide any moral or practical reason, I don't know what you're complaining about.
calling it "racist" is drawing the long bow, if you ask me.

[monkey man]

The lack of acknowledgement of a response does not equate to a lack of response.

[Flannel Jesus]

your lack of a sufficient response equates to a lack of a sufficient response though, so...there's that.

[monkey man]

I think we are now contributing to a reduction in the efficacy of the ILP forum.