Cargo Cults and religion in general

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

The Cargo Cults of the South Pacific provide us with a clear example of "religions" and spiritual conceptions untouched by modernity, and what happens when the advanced cultures encounter these primitive cultures.

First, it's clear that religion and spiritual conceptions are embedded within the very nature of the human race. All tribes of people, historic and pre-historic, had/has some kind of religious and spiritual conceptions that performed uniting the tribe and them getting guidance -- and blessings -- from unseen powers.

Their mythology was/is functional whether real or not.

The cargo cults mostly came to light during WWII, when America setup bases on the islands of the South Pacific, like New Guinea.

The Americans didn't want any trouble out of the indigenous tribes on the island so they showered them with gifts ... manufactured gifts from the modern world ... goods never before seen to the indigenous tribes.

But the tribes didn't know where the goods came from. They didn't know they were made by man. They believed that their deities and ancestors made them and had them delivered. And they believed that thru rituals, rites, incantations, and magic, the deities could be coaxed to once again deliver to them "the cargo."

So they saw all the gifts from the Americans, and Japanese, as "cargo" being delivered by their deities.

And then the war ended and Americans left the islands and went home. To the tribe "the cargo" stopped coming.

So they continued to petition their deities to bring the cargo. Thinking to perform magic to bring back the cargo they set up their island to look like it was when the cargo was coming. They built ships of bamboo, and radio towers and antennas, to look like the American base on their island ; all in an effort to bring the cargo again.

So this kind of magic religious mindset resides within us all ... and within our religions of today.

I would venture to say that within Christianity the reformation, restoration, and recovery, movements are all expressions of the cargo cult mentality. In that if, we can only bring the church back to it pure early expression, God will magically deliver "the cargo" -- his blessings -- upon us.

How much more of our religions today are really based upon cargo cult principles and thinking?

Read more on the Cargo Cults at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

[felix dakat]

The book entitled "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches: The Riddle of Culture" by Marvin Harris that has a chapter entitled "Phantom Cargo" about this phenomenon. The theory is that the superstitious practices of the primitive tribes a model for how religion works, right? The islanders thought they could magically bring back the cargo by fashioning airplanes out of stick and leaves. The magic principle is that like influences like.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

The book entitled "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches: The Riddle of Culture" by Marvin Harris that has a chapter entitled "Phantom Cargo" about this phenomenon. The theory is that the superstitious practices of the primitive tribes a model for how religion works, right? The islanders thought they could magically bring back the cargo by fashioning airplanes out of stick and leaves. The magic principle is that like influences like.

I think there's lots of examples of cargo cult thinking in our major religions. 72 virgins is an example in the Muslim religion. The virgins, in this case being the cargo, for the martyrs of Allah.

Also, Harold Camping, is a recent example of cargo thinking, the second coming of Jesus being the cargo.

And Bible based systematized theology is an example. Or the idea that if we put Bible verses together, like setting tumblers in a combination lock in the right order, God will deliver the cargo in the form of blessings.

And thinking the Bible is the magic word of God is cargo thinking ... the Bible itself being the cargo.

[felix dakat]

The book entitled "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches: The Riddle of Culture" by Marvin Harris that has a chapter entitled "Phantom Cargo" about this phenomenon. The theory is that the superstitious practices of the primitive tribes a model for how religion works, right? The islanders thought they could magically bring back the cargo by fashioning airplanes out of stick and leaves. The magic principle is that like influences like.

I think there's lots of examples of cargo cult thinking in our major religions. 72 virgins is an example in the Muslim religion. The virgins, in this case being the cargo, for the martyrs of Allah.

Also, Harold Camping, is a recent example of cargo thinking, the second coming of Jesus being the cargo.

And Bible based systematized theology is an example. Or the idea that if we put Bible verses together, like setting tumblers in a combination lock in the right order, God will deliver the cargo in the form of blessings.

And thinking the Bible is the magic word of God is cargo thinking ... the Bible itself being the cargo.

So the cargo cult mentality is alive and well in the 21st century. The "law of attraction" as in the book and movie "The Secret" seems to instantiate cargo cult-like thinking too.

[Moreno]

How much more of our religions today are really based upon cargo cult principles and thinking?

Not just religions, but also things like capitalism, certainly neo-con versions of them. One of the common deities in the religion of capitalism is 'Free Markets', a supposedly benevolent deity with millions of arms, granting boons all around itself.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

How much more of our religions today are really based upon cargo cult principles and thinking?

Not just religions, but also things like capitalism, certainly neo-con versions of them. One of the common deities in the religion of capitalism is 'Free Markets', a supposedly benevolent deity with millions of arms, granting boons all around itself.

Interesting take on modern day cargo cult like thinking. So can you name the deities of this capitalistic cargo cult?

Since wall street is run by gambling addicts, is wall street a cargo cult? Who are the deities they petition? Is Goldman Sachs a deity? How about the Federal Reserve? the world bank? Where the hell are their deities?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

So the cargo cult mentality is alive and well in the 21st century. The "law of attraction" as in the book and movie "The Secret" seems to instantiate cargo cult-like thinking too.

Yes, yes, "The Secret" is unquestionable cargo cult thinking. And it works. The Secret is obviously pushing the primitive cargo cult button/nature within us all. They've made lots of money off The Secret.

I would say those that fell/fall for The Secret are the same type that fall for Biblical prophesy ... both spring from the cargo cult nature within us ... a sort of engram trigger deep within our psyche ... that works so well it's worth millions and billions to exploiters and con artists ...

[Moreno]

Interesting take on modern day cargo cult like thinking. So can you name the deities of this capitalistic cargo cult?

I already did 'Free Markets'. I even described it. Reagan has a nice one called 'Trickle down economics'.

A lot of people worshiped the deity 'Derivatives' and this led to the recent worldwide recession, since Derivatives is a fickle deity.

Since wall street is run by gambling addicts, is wall street a cargo cult?

Generally no. They can actually do well while members of the real Cargo Cult go bankrupt or lose their pensions. Think of wall st. as street preachers for a cargo cult, but ones who know they are scamming (us).

Who are the deities they petition? Is Goldman Sachs a deity? How about the Federal Reserve? the world bank? Where the hell are their deities?

[/quote]Well, their deities are invisible, like many a good diety. Free markets, trickle down wealth, third world development...Did you know that when a bank loans you money it simply types the numbers into your bank account. It creates the money at that point. Each loan increases the amount of money being regulated by that bank. They make it out of nothing. Of course if you default, they will take your real stuff - houses, cars, your factory...etc. So loans, like this, are deities.

The analogous atheist calls much of capitalism ponzi schemes.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Reagan has a nice one called 'Trickle down economics'.

Well Reaganomics, or trickle down economics, has properly been called Voodoo economics. And yes, it did promise to deliver the cargo to the American tribe. Put all it did was enrich the shaman at the top of the America tribe. The trickle down was them pissing on us.

[Moreno]

Reagan has a nice one called 'Trickle down economics'.

Well Reaganomics, or trickle down economics, has properly been called Voodoo economics.

It has been called that by some, but the world is ever increasingly following reagonomics. We didn't go back from it, later presidents increased it, including Clinton.

[BUFFALO]

I think some of the posters here may be deliberately mixing politics with religion to satisfy their own agendas. I have strong doubts that "free markets" are related to the religious impulse. Perhaps the best thing I have read on this lately is "Religion Explained" by the French anthropologist, Pascal Boyer. Anybody read this? Highly recommended. He does a very good job of explaining how religions might come into being and why. He also dispells a lot of the pop-psychological explanations for religion (for example: "It gave people answers to cosmological questions before there was science.", "It is comforting." etc.). I am sure that a good portion of the fervency of the far-right conservative movement in the US is somehow tied to religious belief (and is often just as dogmatic), but it isn't religion any more than atheism is a religion (and I know I risk opening a can of worms here).

[Moreno]

I think some of the posters here may be deliberately mixing politics with religion to satisfy their own agendas. I have strong doubts that "free markets" are related to the religious impulse. Perhaps the best thing I have read on this lately is "Religion Explained" by the French anthropologist, Pascal Boyer. Anybody read this? Highly recommended. He does a very good job of explaining how religions might come into being and why. He also dispells a lot of the pop-psychological explanations for religion (for example: "It gave people answers to cosmological questions before there was science.", "It is comforting." etc.). I am sure that a good portion of the fervency of the far-right conservative movement in the US is somehow tied to religious belief (and is often just as dogmatic), but it isn't religion any more than atheism is a religion (and I know I risk opening a can of worms here).

My point with bringing in economic politics was not to say these were the results a religious impulses, in the sense that they are consequences of Christianity, but rather that the cargo cult analogy works for many things, not just religions. If someone wants to make a generalization about what religion really is - as opposed to, often, what religious people say - then the broader consequences of making such a claim need to be brought in, I think. IOW I think a lot of facile 'logic' is used in these types of discussions, and applied selectively. I don't consider this sneaky or really a hidden agenda, though perhaps some people had no idea why I was bringing it in. I am deliberately provoking what I hope is some deeper thinking on such issues.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Perhaps the best thing I have read on this lately is "Religion Explained" by the French anthropologist, Pascal Boyer. Anybody read this? Highly recommended.

Thanks. Ordered a hard bound from abebooks.com ... $4.47 free shipping. Kindle wanted just under $10. Kindle, as I am finding, is like going to a Movie theater, where you are trapped paying unfair market prices for candy and popcorn ... but Kindle does this with books.

[felix dakat]

The cargo cult analogy seems to be limited to eschatological religions [ER] in which the focus is on an expected future in which one is rewarded or punished. Cargo cultism is different than ER in a significant respect. Unlike the ERists, the cargo cultists actually did get the cargo at one time. For the ERists the "cargo"-- be it the Kingdom of God on earth or life after death-- is promised but not yet received. The cargo cultist is expecting real cargo. She just doesn't understand the technological or social mechanisms whereby they were previously delivered. The ERist's expectations are reinforced by the propaganda of the religion to which he subscribes. When the delivery system is supposed to be supernatural, it is beyond comprehension the ERist by definition.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

The cargo cult analogy seems to be limited to eschatological religions [ER] in which the focus is on an expected future in which one is rewarded or punished. Cargo cultism is different than ER in a significant respect. Unlike the ERists, the cargo cultists actually did get the cargo at one time. For the ERists the "cargo"-- be it the Kingdom of God on earth or life after death-- is promised but not yet received. The cargo cultist is expecting real cargo. She just doesn't understand the technological or social mechanisms whereby they were previously delivered. The ERist's expectations are reinforced by the propaganda of the religion to which he subscribes. When the delivery system is supposed to be supernatural, it is beyond comprehension the ERist by definition.

The poor ERists. At least the primitive cargo cultist seek real cargo. While the ERists get smoke and mirrors.

According to God's time -- 1000 yrs = 1 day -- Jesus has been on vacation with his Dad for 2 days. Give him at least 2 weeks with his Dad, which means the ERists have to wait for their cargo another 12,000 yrs.

Plus, when Jesus ascended to heaven, if he traveled at the speed of light he wouldn't be out of the Milky Way galaxy yet, so the ERists may have much longer to wait for their cargo.

[BUFFALO]

The cargo cult analogy seems to be limited to eschatological religions [ER] in which the focus is on an expected future in which one is rewarded or punished.

Perhaps a better word would be "soteriological" since it relates more to the coming reward offered by a religion. I think "eschatological" deals more with the end of the world. But this raises another interesting contrast between cargo cults and the Abrahamic religions - cargo cults expect a reward someday (eg. when John Frum returns with the cargo) but they don't really speak of the end of the world. Not unlike the way that certain heretical first century Christian "cults" felt that they were already living "in the Kingdom of God".

From the point of view of Pascal Boyer in "Religion Explained", these differences are immaterial - the factors that drive man's (universal) susceptibility to religion are largely subconscious.

[felix dakat]

The cargo cult analogy seems to be limited to eschatological religions [ER] in which the focus is on an expected future in which one is rewarded or punished.

Perhaps a better word would be "soteriological" since it relates more to the coming reward offered by a religion. I think "eschatological" deals more with the end of the world. But this raises another interesting contrast between cargo cults and the Abrahamic religions - cargo cults expect a reward someday (eg. when John Frum returns with the cargo) but they don't really speak of the end of the world. Not unlike the way that certain heretical first century Christian "cults" felt that they were already living "in the Kingdom of God".

From the point of view of Pascal Boyer in "Religion Explained", these differences are immaterial - the factors that drive man's (universal) susceptibility to religion are largely subconscious.

I was looking for a term that would cover all religions that focus on future rewards. σωτηρ doesn't capture that for me.

[Moreno]

The cargo cult analogy seems to be limited to eschatological religions [ER] in which the focus is on an expected future in which one is rewarded or punished.

Perhaps a better word would be "soteriological" since it relates more to the coming reward offered by a religion. I think "eschatological" deals more with the end of the world. But this raises another interesting contrast between cargo cults and the Abrahamic religions - cargo cults expect a reward someday (eg. when John Frum returns with the cargo) but they don't really speak of the end of the world. Not unlike the way that certain heretical first century Christian "cults" felt that they were already living "in the Kingdom of God".

From the point of view of Pascal Boyer in "Religion Explained", these differences are immaterial - the factors that drive man's (universal) susceptibility to religion are largely subconscious.

I was looking for a term that would cover all religions that focus on future rewards. σωτηρ doesn't capture that for me.

Are there religions that do not focus, to some degree, on future rewards? Buddhism and Hinduism certainly do, many pagan religions have afterlives where current behavior can affect afterlife outcomes. Then any religion with magical/healing components has a control the future facet. Or do you mean a specifically be morally good now, get rewarded later kinda thing?

[Nah]

I guess science is one of cargo cults, too.

I think politics and economy are often based on what I call "illusion based marketing", and it's nothing other than cargo cult (often without real goods...).

So stupid and insane, reflecting how we are.

[BUFFALO]

Are there religions that do not focus, to some degree, on future rewards? Buddhism and Hinduism certainly do...

In so far as this may be true in the case of many lay Buddhist practitioners, it is not true for Buddhism at it's core. The Buddha rejects (or ignores) metaphysics and questions of an afterlife. Nirvana is not to be viewed as a "reward". Many Buddhists would tell even you that Nirvana (or enlightenment, Satori, Kensho, etc.) must not be viewed as a "goal". The here-and-now is all that matters.

"The Parable of the Poisoned Arrow"

One day, a new follower of the Buddha approached him with a series of questions. He asked, "Master, do we have a soul? And does the soul survive our death?"
The Buddha responded, "Why do you wish to know these things?"
"Because," the man replied, "without these answers what is the point of following you?"
The Buddha responded, "This is what you are like. You are like a man who has been struck by a poisoned arrow. Your friends take you to the healer so that the arrow can be removed and an antidote given for the poison. But you refuse to allow the healer to remove the arrow until he first answers all your questions. Who shot the arrow at you? What was his motive? What kind of arrow is it? What kind of poison did he use? On and on you ask your questions as the arrow remains in your body with the poison seeping into your blood. And so you die before your questions are answered. You want my teaching to answer your questions. My teaching only removes the arrow."

"This parable gets at an important aspect of Buddhism: Metaphysics isn't important. Only the path (the dharma) matters. The teaching of the Buddha is aimed at alleviating suffering. It isn't intended to satisfy our metaphysical curiosity. Is there a God? A soul? Free will? Heaven? Hell? In Buddhism it doesn't really matter. It just concentrates on getting the arrow out. It's this lack of metaphysics that makes it hard to characterize Buddhism as a "religion." Thus, many people feel more comfortable calling Buddhism a way or philosophy of life. You don't really believe things in Buddhism (although you can). Rather, you do things. Which is why Buddhist "observance" is called practice rather than faith."

[BUFFALO]

I guess science is one of cargo cults, too.

???????????

You guess? Defend this thesis.

Science is the antithesis of "cargo cults".

Science is the antidote to "cargo cults".

[Nah]

I guess science is one of cargo cults, too.

???????????

You guess? Defend this thesis.

Science is the antithesis of "cargo cults".

Science is the antidote to "cargo cults".

Just an improved version, IMO.
It's still operating to obtain desired results with lots of rituals.
Sure, scientific rituals (methodologies, procedures) are better, in the sense more generalized and applicable with less limitation.
But they are still hypothetical approximations, less crude compared to "cargo cult", though.

As for "Antithesis", it might be having no expectation.
"Antidote" might be hoping hard and loosing hope (in cult, worshiping, rituals, etc to get something in return).

[felix dakat]

Are there religions that do not focus, to some degree, on future rewards? Buddhism and Hinduism certainly do, many pagan religions have afterlives where current behavior can affect afterlife outcomes. Then any religion with magical/healing components has a control the future facet. Or do you mean a specifically be morally good now, get rewarded later kinda thing?

That's a good question. I can't think of any without some future-promising aspect off hand. Of course, some focus on future promises more than others. Neither eschatological nor soteriological seem to fill the bill. At this point, maybe future-promising aspect, though awkward comes closer to what I was getting at.

[BUFFALO]

they are still hypothetical approximations, less crude compared to "cargo cult", though.

"Hypothetical approximations"??? This is 20th century relativism at it's insidious worst. So cargo cults and science are just tools to help us negotiate reality? Well cargo cults, as tools, are then analogous to trying to dig a hole in rock with your bare hands. In a sense you are correct. Both paradigms produce merely a "model" of the universe. But the assumption of methodological naturalism allows science to produce a model that is actually useful.

[Nah]

"Hypothetical approximations"??? This is 20th century relativism at it's insidious worst. So cargo cults and science are just tools to help us negotiate reality? Well cargo cults, as tools, are then analogous to trying to dig a hole in rock with your bare hands. In a sense you are correct. Both paradigms produce merely a "model" of the universe. But the assumption of methodological naturalism allows science to produce a model that is actually useful.

Are you trying to think in scientific manner or just expressing cult believer mentality?