Consistency as Prime Mover

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Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:04 pm

    Values did man only assign to things in order to maintain himself- he created only the significance of things, a human significance! Therefore, calleth he himself "man," that is, the valuator.
    (Zarathustra - of the Thousand and One Goals)

If, as Zarathustra says, fundamental to mans being is his valuing, then logically this valuing he must do in terms of himself, for it to amount to his consistent being-man. By such consistently specific valuing, man assimilates material and grows as himself. By this valuing in terms of himself he does not, from the moment of his conception disintegrate by the laws of entropy that seem to govern the universe, but grows, from human cell to human emryo to human being. This was already understood, in a rudimentary form, by Nietzsche. But with this understanding a new question arose: how is a consistent valuing possible? The simple answer would be: by being a consistent subject. But this only createa a circular argumen, and leaves open the question: how there can be a valuing, a being? How does a subject maintain its perspectival consistency, its structural integrity, whereby it values in terms of itself? To explain this we must posit a self-valuing, which is to say, a holding-oneself-as-value, whereby this “oneself” is nothing else than this consistent holding-as-value, in engaging the outer world. This consistency of a self-holding standard-value, is what amounts to being, the accomulation of more and more material to feed and sustain a structurally consistent growing, “a becoming”.

With this logical deepening of the concept valuing, we are faced with the problem of identifying technically what this self valuing is. At this point, this holding-oneself-as-consistent in the face of otherness, the outer, to which I will refer as self-valuing, has been inferred as a necessity to the possibility of valuing, which amounts the activity of manifest being, i.e. interacting with “the world” and thereby assimilating materials to grow while maintaining structural integrity. Other than such this inferring, it may not be possible to directly define self-valuing. We may not be able to describe or define it in the terms we are used to, in which we like to acquire knowledge, the terms which are developed to describe the manifest in exact measurements. The collection of these terms and their proper logic, that of mathematics, is what we refer to as exact science.

Observing the manifest world in scientific terms, we use principles such as quantity, causality, energy-tranferring and interacting, motion, temporality. All these are enabled and interconnected by the laws of mathematics, which is the logic of objective equalies. It relies on given and exactly determined values, which can be defined in terms of each other. It is here that the philosophy of value ontology posits a break with the method of science. The philosopher is not satisfied with positing values as if they are unquestionably given, it is his task to investigate why, or more precisely, how they are given. Mathematics can not provide an answer to this, as such would go directly against the axioms of this science, which include always the word “if”. If A is given as A, then A is given as A. It does not posit that A is given as A. Since the root-logic of science must keep from answering the question why or how, the sciences following from this logic must also keep from this. Science can therefore only describe, not explain.

Philosophy wants to venture where mathematics and its children the sciences, can not go. It wants to posit a value not predicated by an if, it wants to posit that A is given as A. The great philosophersof the modern age have attemped such positive statements in various ways, beginning with Descartes, who posited the certainty “I think therefore I am”, or, read properly in context, “I question that anything is, therefore I am”. Nietzsche and others observed that this “I” who questions is not actually given as an exactly understandable unit. What is this “I” who is, and who questions that anything is, and who posits that he is because he questions that anything is? Descartes accomplished bringing himself the logical certainty that he exists. He does not bring the certainty that anything else is, in fact he calls this very much into question. If the only ground for knowledge of what is (ontology) is to cognate in the way Descartes was doing, then only philosophers can be known to exist, and only by themselves. Clearly this is not a useful definition of being. It is also not an exact application of logic, as it assumes the “I” both in I think. And I exist. The terms “I”, “exist” and “think” are not a mathematical terms: “I exist” can not mathematically be inferred from “I think”.

To correct Descartes logic, we must draw back to the meaning of the word “Am” in “I Am”. We must correctly observe the meaning of the verb “To be”. We must logically be satisfied with the given that what we call “being” by definition exists / is –this is the only meaningful and correct way to employ the verb at all. The correct phrase would be: “I am, therefore I am”. By this phrase, “I” is defined, namely, as that which, apparently, is said by itself to exist. What have we come to know by this? Nothing. We must start all over.

It is here that philosophy must break from science, from the pretense to be able to define the terms “I” and “exist” and “cognate” in terms of each other by exact inference. We must simply be honest, and admit that all three of these terms are simply understood by us, to mean precisely – what we understand by them. No further explication is necessary, no more exact explication is possible. The terms were called into being to describe exactly what we mean when we use the terms. They hold no deeper meaning than what they were invented to convey.

But fear not for the sake of philosophy, it will still find a way. What the terms “I” and “think” and “exist” were invented to convey may possibly be explicated further, deeper, more exact than these terms. To see how this is the case, observe that these terms all three of them refer to the very same thing. “I”, “think” and “am” are all words indicating the same, which also includes the things to which other terms refer, such as “eat” or “walk”. As true as “I think, therefore I am” is, is also “I eat, therefore I am”. By the correction of Descartes logic, we see that the “I” is posited as a condition of “think”, as much as “think” is a condition of “I”. Therefore, when I posit that “I eat”, I posit an “I” which, by common interpretation of grammar, means that I posit that (an) “I” exist(s).

We see that “I” simply means “existing” and that this existing can be expressed in the endless variety of verbs that may pertain to a posited I. Now, the question becomes simply, what do all these verbs, by the grace of which the “I” can be explicated, have in common?

I will cut to the chase and propose that they are all functions of the the verb “valuing”. There is no other activity that propoerly explicates an “I” that is not directly the result of this one. Whether I walk, talk, think, eat or pray, I do so because I move towards an aim. In other words, I act because I seek to obtain a value. I seek to obtain a value because I have established this value to myself, in the form of an object (in the sense of “thing” and/or “goal”) And since all that I actively do is predicated by a value I have established to me, and since “I” can only be explicated in terms of such activites, the I is nothing besides this establishing-value-to-me (this “I”).

Furthermore, in all cases wherein this value-establishing to this “I” lead to a continuation of experience as this I, this I must be understood as a constant, which, as it is explained in terms of value establishment, means a standard value, which is constantly re-established with every act of and following from the act of valuing, as itself, which means that its consistency must itself be understood as an activity.

We can see that this does indeed describe physical reality accurately if we look at the periodic table, at what makes for a consistency of an elements. We may consider the most consistent to be those which are least influenced by other elements or energies. Thse are the “noble elements”, in case of the metals, platinum, gold, silver. What make as an element “noble” is that all of its electron rings are filled. It holds little potential for change, for interaction, but in itself it holds the greatest potential relative to the “atomic infrastructure”. Gold is, considered as itself, relatively extremely active, in that it holds in its structure the maximum amount “activities”. By this maximization of activity within a given structure, amounts to a maximal consistency.

Contemplate now the correspondence between activity, "noble elements", consistency, and value.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Abstract » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:03 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Philosophy wants to venture where mathematics and its children the sciences, can not go. It wants to posit a value not predicated by an if, it wants to posit that A is given as A. The great philosophersof the modern age have attemped such positive statements in various ways, beginning with Descartes, who posited the certainty “I think therefore I am”, or, read properly in context, “I question that anything is, therefore I am”. Nietzsche and others observed that this “I” who questions is not actually given as an exactly understandable unit. What is this “I” who is, and who questions that anything is, and who posits that he is because he questions that anything is? Descartes accomplished bringing himself the logical certainty that he exists. He does not bring the certainty that anything else is, in fact he calls this very much into question. If the only ground for knowledge of what is (ontology) is to cognate in the way Descartes was doing, then only philosophers can be known to exist, and only by themselves. Clearly this is not a useful definition of being. It is also not an exact application of logic, as it assumes the “I” both in I think. And I exist. The terms “I”, “exist” and “think” are not a mathematical terms: “I exist” can not mathematically be inferred from “I think”.


THis part got me thinking... That I exist is the only thing that can be known with certainty...(I would think) but perhaps this is not as much a problem because of what the definition of what "I" is. For what I am is defined by all that I know or at oppositely you might say all is defined by I. My point is that efectively everything we sense is a part of the "I": I am what I think, and what I think are all things even those one might call "other". So in saying I exist and finding that certainty, I have proven the existence of all things. But then someone might ask whether this or that exists, and poist that it doesn't make sense that it does, but then the problem that they are having is that they need to be asking what it is that they are asking exists before they ask whether it exists or not... If you truely understand the thing then I would posit you will find it does exist (in someway or form)...
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Abstract » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:11 pm

In other words... By the very fact that I am thinking I can know at the least that thinking does exist... all thingsthat are things can be thought about and thus exist to some degree at least in so far as they are thoughts. So the question is perhaps not whether things exist or not, but whether anything is anything more then a thought, and perhaps then how it is that that is the case?
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Carleas » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:20 pm

Moved from Essays and Theses.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:24 pm

Abstract wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Philosophy wants to venture where mathematics and its children the sciences, can not go. It wants to posit a value not predicated by an if, it wants to posit that A is given as A. The great philosophersof the modern age have attemped such positive statements in various ways, beginning with Descartes, who posited the certainty “I think therefore I am”, or, read properly in context, “I question that anything is, therefore I am”. Nietzsche and others observed that this “I” who questions is not actually given as an exactly understandable unit. What is this “I” who is, and who questions that anything is, and who posits that he is because he questions that anything is? Descartes accomplished bringing himself the logical certainty that he exists. He does not bring the certainty that anything else is, in fact he calls this very much into question. If the only ground for knowledge of what is (ontology) is to cognate in the way Descartes was doing, then only philosophers can be known to exist, and only by themselves. Clearly this is not a useful definition of being. It is also not an exact application of logic, as it assumes the “I” both in I think. And I exist. The terms “I”, “exist” and “think” are not a mathematical terms: “I exist” can not mathematically be inferred from “I think”.


THis part got me thinking... That I exist is the only thing that can be known with certainty...(I would think) but perhaps this is not as much a problem because of what the definition of what "I" is. For what I am is defined by all that I know or at oppositely you might say all is defined by I.

I agree with the second. The first (What I am) requires more than what I know - it requires a possibility o knowing. Which means a possibility of relating, relating-to; what is required next to knowledge is a knowing, a consistent perspective into which force/becoming is integrated or embedded via experience as knowledge.

My point is that efectively everything we sense is a part of the "I": I am what I think, and what I think are all things even those one might call "other". So in saying I exist and finding that certainty, I have proven the existence of all things. But then someone might ask whether this or that exists, and poist that it doesn't make sense that it does, but then the problem that they are having is that they need to be asking what it is that they are asking exists before they ask whether it exists or not...

Exactly. I think that "objects" (things that we "objectively" know to exists) are hubs of projected meanings. Everyone sees these objects differently dependent of their subjectivity. An ant does not see what we see as a chair as a chair, or even as an object (it can not perceive the whole thing) but there is still matter. The matter is however integrated in the ants awareness as something very different, possibly part of it is interpreted as a pathway, no different in function from a wall or a tree. In other words, to the ant this thing that for us is a clear object is not necessary something standing separate, not a thing.

If you truely understand the thing then I would posit you will find it does exist

I think thats a sound understanding of what "existing" of "things" really means.

(in someway or form)...

Namely, in exactly the way and form as you have understood is, and no other.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Amorphos » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:36 pm

Values did man only assign to things in order to maintain himself- he created only the significance of things, a human significance! Therefore, calleth he himself "man," that is, the valuator.


Rather than being thoughtless animals.
Intellect is somewhat composed of values and comparisons of such, as are math and any intellectual processes.

It is here that philosophy must break from science, from the pretence to be able to define the terms “I” and “exist” and “cognate” in terms of each other by exact inference. We must simply be honest, and admit that all three of these terms are simply understood by us, to mean precisely – what we understand by them. No further explication is necessary, no more exact explication is possible. The terms were called into being to describe exactly what we mean when we use the terms. They hold no deeper meaning than what they were invented to convey.


Nicely put!
There is a limit to description, one has to accept that the terms themselves relate to that limit, rather than what is meant. We need no description of self because it is the most reliable thingness of what we are, it comes before any description of itself and other things it observes [all of science].


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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby sigurdV » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:43 pm

I dont think we assign values, they are a relation between our constitution and our environment:
If we are starved then we rather have dinner than a good argument.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:04 pm

Amorphos wrote:
It is here that philosophy must break from science, from the pretence to be able to define the terms “I” and “exist” and “cognate” in terms of each other by exact inference. We must simply be honest, and admit that all three of these terms are simply understood by us, to mean precisely – what we understand by them. No further explication is necessary, no more exact explication is possible. The terms were called into being to describe exactly what we mean when we use the terms. They hold no deeper meaning than what they were invented to convey.


Nicely put!
There is a limit to description, one has to accept that the terms themselves relate to that limit, rather than what is meant.

I believe that's correct. Just like art becomes meaningful when it becomes an exploration of the limits of the instrument, the means. The instrument can also mean the self, the personality.

We need no description of self because it is the most reliable thingness of what we are, it comes before any description of itself and other things it observes [all of science].

We can only try to define the self by reaching for its limits - attempting to transgress them to reveal them. Hence again, art, but also war, and sex.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:07 pm

sigurdV wrote:I dont think we assign values, they are a relation between our constitution and our environment:
If we are starved then we rather have dinner than a good argument.

And this is how we assign values: 'we rather have'. We prefer it, we value it more, we assign it greater value.
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby lizbethrose » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:58 am

THis part got me thinking... That I exist is the only thing that can be known with certainty...(I would think) but perhaps this is not as much a problem because of what the definition of what "I" is. For what I am is defined by all that I know or at oppositely you might say all is defined by I. My point is that efectively everything we sense is a part of the "I": I am what I think, and what I think are all things even those one might call "other". So in saying I exist and finding that certainty, I have proven the existence of all things. But then someone might ask whether this or that exists, and poist that it doesn't make sense that it does, but then the problem that they are having is that they need to be asking what it is that they are asking exists before they ask whether it exists or not... If you truely understand the thing then I would posit you will find it does exist (in someway or form)...


Is this an example of solipsism? If not, what are the differences?
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Historyboy » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:28 am

Values: What we expect, we call right and proper; what surprised us, what we found was wonderful, we praise or blame that. The first feeling of astonishment is the fear: praise and blame is a product of fear. In contrast, the rights and proper makes us satisfied, is neutral for the feeling and corresponds to health. — The equivalent of what everyone expects from himself and others in every situation, that is the ordinary of an entire culture, is for a different culture not the ordinary and excites their surprise, awakes praise and blame, and is therefore in any case too strongly felt. The cultures don't understand what belongs to the health of others. The expected, the ordinary, the healthy, that which is neutral for the feeling makes the greater part of what a culture calls her morality. - Nietzsche

Nihilism: Assumed we always expect the evil, the unpleasant surprise, so we are always in a hostile tension, we become unbearable for others and suffer from health by ourselves: those natures are dying out. On the whole, only the more satisfied and races richer in hope have remained alive. — Who is always expecting the bad, he becomes evil, namely hostile suspicious and restless; which is the effect of pessimistic thinking. - Nietzsche
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Re: Consistency as Prime Mover

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:03 am

Historyboy wrote:Values: What we expect, we call right and proper; what surprised us, what we found was wonderful, we praise or blame that. The first feeling of astonishment is the fear: praise and blame is a product of fear. In contrast, the rights and proper makes us satisfied, is neutral for the feeling and corresponds to health. — The equivalent of what everyone expects from himself and others in every situation, that is the ordinary of an entire culture, is for a different culture not the ordinary and excites their surprise, awakes praise and blame, and is therefore in any case too strongly felt. The cultures don't understand what belongs to the health of others. The expected, the ordinary, the healthy, that which is neutral for the feeling makes the greater part of what a culture calls her morality.

Precisely. Values are that which we can value in terms of ourselves. In terms of the value that we represent to ourself. Largely: in terms of our health. In the case of nobility: in terms of our virtue.

Nihilism: Assumed we always expect the evil, the unpleasant surprise, so we are always in a hostile tension, we become unbearable for others and suffer from health by ourselves: those natures are dying out. On the whole, only the more satisfied and races richer in hope have remained alive. — Who is always expecting the bad, he becomes evil, namely hostile suspicious and restless; which is the effect of pessimistic thinking.

Also very good. When we can not value our surrounding in terms of ourself/health/self-valuing.

'Health' in this sense, is a verb - is the verb. All other verbs rely on it - all activity mirrors the actors health.
All values (that which can be attained/must be rejected) reflect the valuers health.

The Great Health:
The ability, even imperative to squander - to overflow of value, to value exuberantly - 'amor fati' only a distant, cold and abstract formula of this phenomenon -- Dionysos.
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