Why does God appear no different from a non-existent God?

[ZenKitty]

This is is one of my biggest bitches about philosophy. Think about something for long enough and you can convince yourself (reasonable and logically) of anything. But you'll still have to get up later tonight and have a shit; that's the real world (very Zen). It's ridiculous because it is ridiculous - you and I both know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is an external world and other minds, and even if you deny it, you still live as if there is, don't you? You have to (unless you are in an asylum right now). No matter what else your imagination might conjure up (God or gods or a sentient universe) you can't escape the reality of every-day existence.

Do you pay attention to what was just said? Descartes pointed out exactly what your position is. I will post it again and break it down some for you, because you already imply that you live in a virtual world or whatever.

Descartes:Just as a prisoner, who was perhaps enjoying an imaginary freedom in his dreams, when he then begins to suspect that he is asleep is afraid of being woken up, and lets himself sink back into his soothing illusions; so I of my own accord slip back into my former opinions, and am scared to awake, for fear that tranquil sleep will give way to laborious hours of waking, which from now on I shall have to spend not in any kind of light, but in the unrelenting darkness of the difficulties just stirred up.”

And I do not know about you, but I am not as trusting as person, especially when it has been found to be false. Once found to be false, you already have shown that it is possible and it can happen again once you know it already happened once. I do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is an external world or other minds. All my experiences are perfectly consistent with either position, so you still "live and act" in both of them. You are just living and acting in different worlds. No difference in actions, just differences in the world. And your talk of as if shows a fictional account. All you have done is brought forth that you believe in a fiction because it works in the "live and act". You have already provided an account of your belief in something false, which is that you have no rational grounds for it either based on logic or experience. Your arguments just come down to hand waving, and every-day experience exists whether others exist or not. Go through your life and act as if other people had thoughts and emotions, and there would be no difference in action but a big difference in the way the world actually is.

[BUFFALO]

Do you pay attention to what was just said?

I indeed read it and gave you my interpretation of it.

Descartes pointed out exactly what your position is. I will post it again and break it down some for you, because you already imply that you live in a virtual world or whatever.

"Just as a prisoner, who was perhaps enjoying an imaginary freedom in his dreams, when he then begins to suspect that he is asleep is afraid of being woken up, and lets himself sink back into his soothing illusions; so I of my own accord slip back into my former opinions, and am scared to awake, for fear that tranquil sleep will give way to laborious hours of waking, which from now on I shall have to spend not in any kind of light, but in the unrelenting darkness of the difficulties just stirred up."

And I do not know about you, but I am not as trusting as person, especially when it has been found to be false. Once found to be false, you already have shown that it is possible and it can happen again once you know it already happened once. I do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is an external world or other minds. All my experiences are perfectly consistent with either position, so you still "live and act" in both of them. You are just living and acting in different worlds. No difference in actions, just differences in the world. And your talk of as if shows a fictional account. All you have done is brought forth that you believe in a fiction because it works in the "live and act". You have already provided an account of your belief in something false, which is that you have no rational grounds for it either based on logic or experience. Your arguments just come down to hand waving, and every-day experience exists whether others exist or not. Go through your life and act as if other people had thoughts and emotions, and there would be no difference in action but a big difference in the way the world actually is.

Although I "know" very well that I cannot "know" anything with certainty, this line of argument is just so much metaphysical claptrap. Neither of us believe it or we wouldn't bother to get out of bed in the morning. I am speaking literally, not figuratively. As G.E. Moore said, "Here is one hand... And here is another."

***POOF*** I am in the real world (and so are you).

Myself, I like the Zen interpretation:

Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.
While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers.
After I attained enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.

[ZenKitty]

Although I "know" very well that I cannot "know" anything with certainty, this line of argument is just so much metaphysical claptrap. Neither of us believe it or we wouldn't bother to get out of bed in the morning. I am speaking literally, not figuratively. As G.E. Moore said, "Here is one hand... And here is another."

I do not think you understand. This is not about certainity, because you do not even have probability or likelihood to support your belief, except for a subjective likelihood. And you bring this up as metaphysical clap trap, but your own belief is a metaphysical clap trap. And saying "Here is one hand...And here is another" does not show that there is an external world, that only shows that you are having an experience of a hand and not that the hand is in some external world or external to you.

Myself, I like the Zen interpretation:

Before I sought enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.
While I sought enlightenment, the mountains were not mountains and the rivers were not rivers.
After I attained enlightenment, the mountains were mountains and the rivers were rivers.

That sounds like solipsism to me and sounds like it does not show one iota of an external world. In fact, as far as I understand zen, being a solipsist is in perfect harmony with zen. You have created a barrier by thinking there is something other than you, and Zen is about cutting down those barriers like if the Buddha were to come before you, you must cut him down.

[BUFFALO]

I do not think you understand. This is not about certainity, because you do not even have probability or likelihood to support your belief, except for a subjective likelihood. And you bring this up as metaphysical clap trap, but your own belief is a metaphysical clap trap. And saying "Here is one hand...And here is another" does not show that there is an external world, that only shows that you are having an experience of a hand and not that the hand is in some external world or external to you.

Kitty Dearest,
I confess that I have derailed our discourse at this point and I am forced to concede this argument to your superior skills in the art of philosophical rhetoric. But the limits of my intellectual tolerance disallow me from seriously entertaining even the thought that this is "just a dream". As a "thought experiment", fine. But seriously? I'll stick with "real" world, even if it is not really "real" and I'm not actually "fully awake". I will, however endeavour to keep in mind that I do hold this prejudice, and maybe if I keep an open mind it won't prevent me from attaining a higher consciousness (if there is such a thing).

That sounds like solipsism to me and sounds like it does not show one iota of an external world. In fact, as far as I understand zen, being a solipsist is in perfect harmony with zen. You have created a barrier by thinking there is something other than you, and Zen is about cutting down those barriers like if the Buddha were to come before you, you must cut him down.

That is correct. Drop the barrier and (maybe) see the unity.

Chop wood and carry water.

Nothing special.

[Mutcer]

Everything I have observed the alleged Christian God do results in precisely the same as what would happen if there were no God.

So you have observed a world created or run by the alleged Christian God, observed a world not created or run by the alleged Christian God, and observed our world, tos ay that the world you observe now (our world) is not the Christian God one. You are an interesting person, because you are probably the only person to have experienced three worlds while the rest of us are stuck with one.

use the term "non-existent God" to represent what happens if there is no God.

Yeah, and you have not really stated what those worlds look like.

I'm sensing that you're not quite getting my point.

If I ask God to say hi to me, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to stop hurting people with natural disasters, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to heal amputees, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.

I could go on and on, but I think you should get my point.

I might as well pray to a milk jug - I'd get the same results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymNb-pr-Pc

[ZenKitty]

I'm sensing that you're not quite getting my point.

If I ask God to say hi to me, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to stop hurting people with natural disasters, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to heal amputees, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.

I could go on and on, but I think you should get my point.

I might as well pray to a milk jug - I'd get the same results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymNb-pr-Pc

I still do not think you understand how bad your argument is. You have not shown that you know what a world with god looks like and world without god looks like. Until you can do this, your argument is just an argument from ignorance and has no substance behind it. At most, your argument is of rhetorical use and not of logical or experiential basis. I ask the world to say hi to me, it never responds. if there were no world then I would get the same response. Ops, that means the difference between a world and no world is of no significance, so there is no world.

[BUFFALO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymNb-pr-Pc

Nice link!

[BUFFALO]

I'm sensing that you're not quite getting my point.

If I ask God to say hi to me, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to stop hurting people with natural disasters, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.
If I ask God to heal amputees, I get the same result if there is a God as I get if there isn't a God.

I could go on and on, but I think you should get my point.

I might as well pray to a milk jug - I'd get the same results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymNb-pr-Pc

I still do not think you understand how bad your argument is. You have not shown that you know what a world with god looks like and world without god looks like. Until you can do this, your argument is just an argument from ignorance and has no substance behind it. At most, your argument is of rhetorical use and not of logical or experiential basis. I ask the world to say hi to me, it never responds. if there were no world then I would get the same response. Ops, that means the difference between a world and no world is of no significance, so there is no world.

But Kitty, only if you expect the world to answer back. (And you should, if you think it is conscious).

[ZenKitty]

But Kitty, only if you expect the world to answer back. (And you should, if you think it is conscious).

No, I should not. Conscious things choose to answer you or not. Have you ever had anyone who ignored you, or would you say they are not conscious? For example, you assume that I am conscious. But you may reply to this post and I may choose to ignore your post or in fact put you on ignore. Does that mean that I am not conscious because I ignore you? I do not think so, but maybe you think that the person must not be conscious because they do not respond to your post. I expect people to respond to me if they choose to respond to me, not because they must respond to me. If that were the case, you must do great with the sex that you desire to have sexual relations with. You must think that many of them are not conscious because they do not respond to your or your advances and just ignore you.

[BUFFALO]

But Kitty, only if you expect the world to answer back. (And you should, if you think it is conscious).

No, I should not. Conscious things choose to answer you or not. Have you ever had anyone who ignored you, or would you say they are not conscious? For example, you assume that I am conscious. But you may reply to this post and I may choose to ignore your post or in fact put you on ignore. Does that mean that I am not conscious because I ignore you? I do not think so, but maybe you think that the person must not be conscious because they do not respond to your post. I expect people to respond to me if they choose to respond to me, not because they must respond to me. If that were the case, you must do great with the sex that you desire to have sexual relations with. You must think that many of them are not conscious because they do not respond to your or your advances and just ignore you.

Wait just a derned second here, this is my dream! I'm the solipsist and I will decide who is conscious or not!

And next time I have relations with my wife, I'll wake her up first! And we'll see about that particular allegation...

And I assure you that, never in my life, have I ever had to put the moves on a woman to get her to ignore me!

[Selah7+]

[quote="ZenKitty"][quote="Mutcer"]Why does an existent God appear indistinguishable from a non-existent God?

God cannot be seen. A non-existent God cannot be seen.
God cannot be proven to exist. A non-existent God cannot be proven to exist.
God never does anything to show he exists. A non-existent God never does anything to show he exists.

[quote="Selah7+] God can be seen if you are looking. A non-existent God is a "moot" point and of course cannot be seen. Do you presume that there "exists" an 'unknown god'? God has been proven to exist and He does. What's the point of trying to 'prove' that a non-existent God exists? That does not make any sense, sir. God shows us every day that He exists and loves us...we are alive and breathing. A non-existent god can't do anything...he doesn't exist!

Let's take your first point. God can be seen: Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork." Everthing we see in this physical world was created by a Creator...from nothing! Genesis 1:1; The Gospel of John 1:1-5; Psalm 53:1; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

But this is just the beginning. God exists because He IS. He told Moses that His name is I AM. However, Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God, the Father, through the Son, Jesus the Christ. The mystery of God is revealed to those who put their trust in Him through the power of the Holy Spirit, the 'third' person of the Godhead. The natural man cannot understand the things of God and you will never get your answer through human reasoning.

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

[BUFFALO]

God can be seen: Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork." Everthing we see in this physical world was created by a Creator...from nothing! Genesis 1:1; The Gospel of John 1:1-5; Psalm 53:1; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

OK. So, you do see the circularity of referencing a book purportedly written by the Creator of the Universe as evidence for the existence of said Creator, right?

[ZenKitty]

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

Is this a response to me or someone else?

[Selah7+]

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

Is this a response to me or someone else?

Zen, I am new to this site, in fact new to this whole genre. I was responding to you and Mutcer just to get into the conversation.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

But this is just the beginning. God exists because He IS. He told Moses that His name is I AM. However, Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God, the Father, through the Son, Jesus the Christ.

We don't go around proclaiming that trees exist. A god that depends on proclamation can't be as real as you claim.

In fact, if God came into existence, into this earthly realm, by proclamation, and is sustained thereby, down thru the ages, by proclamation, we all should question the real existence of God.

We don't go around having to proclaim all the rest that exists. Why is it, if God really exists, does He have to be proclaimed? Why did Jesus have to come to proclaim God, if God exists as you claim?

The mystery of God is revealed to those who put their trust in Him through the power of the Holy Spirit, the 'third' person of the Godhead. The natural man cannot understand the things of God and you will never get your answer through human reasoning.

You are being quite presumptuous to take it for granted that any kind of human endeavor, reasoning or otherwise, will give us "our answer."

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

How does God appear but not appear? And what is the magic question that makes God materialize?

[Selah7+]

But this is just the beginning. God exists because He IS. He told Moses that His name is I AM. However, Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God, the Father, through the Son, Jesus the Christ.

We don't go around proclaiming that trees exist. A god that depends on proclamation can't be as real as you claim.

In fact, if God came into existence, into this earthly realm, by proclamation, and is sustained thereby, down thru the ages, by proclamation, we all should question the real existence of God.

We don't go around having to proclaim all the rest that exists. Why is it, if God really exists, does He have to be proclaimed? Why did Jesus have to come to proclaim God, if God exists as you claim?

The mystery of God is revealed to those who put their trust in Him through the power of the Holy Spirit, the 'third' person of the Godhead. The natural man cannot understand the things of God and you will never get your answer through human reasoning.

You are being quite presumptuous to take it for granted that any kind of human endeavor, reasoning or otherwise, will give us "our answer."

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

How does God appear but not appear? And what is the magic question that makes God materialize?

Great questions, however, you misunderstood me. First, I take nothing for granted. We can not get answers of spiritual truths from own own human reasoning and understanding. Second, there is no magic question. We must trust and depend on God to reveal these things to us, if we really want to know. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. God is Spirit. That is the invisible, spiritual realm, but the things that do appear to us [the physical things...ie: trees, and all creation, etc] is the evidence of a Creator. God does not need people to proclaim Him.

Romans 1:20 = for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead ...

Hebrews 11:3 = through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Genesis 1:1-2 = In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

[Selah7+]

God can be seen: Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork." Everthing we see in this physical world was created by a Creator...from nothing! Genesis 1:1; The Gospel of John 1:1-5; Psalm 53:1; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

OK. So, you do see the circularity of referencing a book purportedly written by the Creator of the Universe as evidence for the existence of said Creator, right?

Oh, Buffalo, I almost missed you, sorry. Yes, 66 books actually. Written by men moved by the power of God to preserve for all eternity the perfect Truth of the Word of the Living God. Do you not think that God is able to do that?

You know, the best answer to this question is really this...He is different because God is a Living God who controls the universe and the non-existent God is just a jug of milk.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

God does not need people to proclaim Him.

Make up your mind. First you say : "Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God," Then you say : "God does not need people to proclaim Him." Jesus was needed ... or maybe not.

Romans 1:20 = for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead ...

Hebrews 11:3 = through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Genesis 1:1-2 = In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Who knows what these verses really mean?

In the Romans reference "the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are [NOT] clearly seen." No one has ever clearly seen the "invisible things." That's why we call them invisible.

In the Hebrews reference, "through faith" we can manufacture infinite idealistic systems ... that may be sheer figments of the imagination.

And the Genesis reference reminds me of the beginning of evolution.

[Mutcer]

Why does an existent God appear indistinguishable from a non-existent God?

God cannot be seen. A non-existent God cannot be seen.
God cannot be proven to exist. A non-existent God cannot be proven to exist.
God never does anything to show he exists. A non-existent God never does anything to show he exists.

God can be seen if you are looking.

Have you ever seen God?
If you took a photograph of God and showed it to me, would I see the same thing you're seeing?

A non-existent God is a "moot" point and of course cannot be seen. Do you presume that there "exists" an 'unknown god'?

I only presume that what we objectively observe is no different if there is a God than if there isn't a God.

God has been proven to exist and He does.

When and where was it proven that God exists?

What's the point of trying to 'prove' that a non-existent God exists? That does not make any sense, sir. God shows us every day that He exists and loves us...we are alive and breathing. A non-existent god can't do anything...he doesn't exist!

What does God do every day to show that he exists?

Let's take your first point. God can be seen: Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork." Everthing we see in this physical world was created by a Creator...from nothing! Genesis 1:1; The Gospel of John 1:1-5; Psalm 53:1; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

That was written by man. Man is known to lie and to make up stories. How do you come to the conclusion it is true?

But this is just the beginning. God exists because He IS. He told Moses that His name is I AM.

By that rationale, if I say "I AM", then I have proven myself to be God.

However, Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God, the Father, through the Son, Jesus the Christ. The mystery of God is revealed to those who put their trust in Him through the power of the Holy Spirit, the 'third' person of the Godhead. The natural man cannot understand the things of God and you will never get your answer through human reasoning.

What about Jesus is proof of God?

God does appear to you, but you don't see Him, maybe because you are asking the wrong question. I would like to discuss this more with you soon. Please respond.

If God appears to me and I have all my sensory devices open and working, then why can't I recognize his presence?

[Selah7+]

God does not need people to proclaim Him.

Make up your mind. First you say : "Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God," Then you say : "God does not need people to proclaim Him." Jesus was needed ... or maybe not.

Luke 19:38-40: Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest! And some of the Pharisees [Jewish Priests] in the crowd said to Him [Jesus], "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." He answered, "I tell you if these were silent [disciples], the very stones would cry out." That is what I meant. God can make his very creation give Him praise if men remained silent.

Romans 1:20 = for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead ...

Hebrews 11:3 = through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Genesis 1:1-2 = In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Who knows what these verses really mean?

You read them and don't understand? The universe and the worlds [heavenly bodies] were framed by the Word of God. God SPOKE and it was. His Word is all he needs. The universe was not made by things which can be seen. God has no beginning, only the creation has a beginning and an end. God is eternal...Past, Present, Future. [Before Abraham was, I AM] We have a beginning, present and future. The Spirit of God is his very Being. Don't strive over trying to understand what it is and how it works. Only know that He is.

In the Romans reference "the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are [NOT] clearly seen." No one has ever clearly seen the "invisible things." That's why we call them invisible.

In the Hebrews reference, "through faith" we can manufacture infinite idealistic systems ... that may be sheer figments of the imagination.

Not necessarily, you have faith in something. Men on their own cannot imagine God because we need to reason and make sense of things. We don't understand how powerful and immense God is, so we reject what we don't understand, usually out of fear, so we make the excuse that it's only our imagination...he doesn't really exist, etc.
And the Genesis reference reminds me of the beginning of evolution.

That makes no sense. You say God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men. That makes sense to you? That's hilarious! Where did all of this matter come from? You see the mind of men? We need to reason within ourselves by our own understanding of things that exist and are clearly seen, but leave God out of the equation. Trust that there is someone greater than you, and only by His grace and mercy do you exist and are loved.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

That makes no sense. You say God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men. That makes sense to you? That's hilarious! Where did all of this matter come from? You see the mind of men? We need to reason within ourselves by our own understanding of things that exist and are clearly seen, but leave God out of the equation. Trust that there is someone greater than you, and only by His grace and mercy do you exist and are loved.

It appears that I've lost track of this conversation. Who said :

"God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men."?

There's lots of creation accounts. I have a book of 25 of them. Humans can't resist trying to explain how everything including us came into being. But none of us today were there. So we're forced to imagine it. And some come up with more catching stories, than others. And the Big Bang story is one of them.

And then we have the Big Bible story. Big Bible? Big Bang? What's the difference? They're both stories. At least the Big Bang is based upon physical evidence (the expanding universe) ... while Big Bible seems to be a children's story ... a fairytale style story.

But no creation account makes sense .... don't expect them to.

[Mutcer]

God does not need people to proclaim Him.

Make up your mind. First you say : "Jesus is the proof. He came to proclaim the existence of God," Then you say : "God does not need people to proclaim Him." Jesus was needed ... or maybe not.

Luke 19:38-40: Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest! And some of the Pharisees [Jewish Priests] in the crowd said to Him [Jesus], "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." He answered, "I tell you if these were silent [disciples], the very stones would cry out." That is what I meant. God can make his very creation give Him praise if men remained silent.

Romans 1:20 = for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead ...

Hebrews 11:3 = through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Genesis 1:1-2 = In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Who knows what these verses really mean?

You read them and don't understand? The universe and the worlds [heavenly bodies] were framed by the Word of God. God SPOKE and it was. His Word is all he needs. The universe was not made by things which can be seen. God has no beginning, only the creation has a beginning and an end. God is eternal...Past, Present, Future. [Before Abraham was, I AM] We have a beginning, present and future. The Spirit of God is his very Being. Don't strive over trying to understand what it is and how it works. Only know that He is.

In the Romans reference "the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are [NOT] clearly seen." No one has ever clearly seen the "invisible things." That's why we call them invisible.

In the Hebrews reference, "through faith" we can manufacture infinite idealistic systems ... that may be sheer figments of the imagination.

Not necessarily, you have faith in something. Men on their own cannot imagine God because we need to reason and make sense of things. We don't understand how powerful and immense God is, so we reject what we don't understand, usually out of fear, so we make the excuse that it's only our imagination...he doesn't really exist, etc.
And the Genesis reference reminds me of the beginning of evolution.

That makes no sense. You say God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men. That makes sense to you? That's hilarious! Where did all of this matter come from? You see the mind of men? We need to reason within ourselves by our own understanding of things that exist and are clearly seen, but leave God out of the equation. Trust that there is someone greater than you, and only by His grace and mercy do you exist and are loved.

If everything we know of came from God, then where did God come from?

[Mutcer]

That makes no sense. You say God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men. That makes sense to you? That's hilarious! Where did all of this matter come from? You see the mind of men? We need to reason within ourselves by our own understanding of things that exist and are clearly seen, but leave God out of the equation. Trust that there is someone greater than you, and only by His grace and mercy do you exist and are loved.

It appears that I've lost track of this conversation. Who said :

"God did not create the world and us, but we came to be by accident. First the Big Bang, then the slime out of sea, then into crawling things, then apes, then men."?

There's lots of creation accounts. I have a book of 25 of them. Humans can't resist trying to explain how everything including us came into being. But none of us today were there. So we're forced to imagine it. And some come up with more catching stories, than others. And the Big Bang story is one of them.

And then we have the Big Bible story. Big Bible? Big Bang? What's the difference? They're both stories. At least the Big Bang is based upon physical evidence (the expanding universe) ... while Big Bible seems to be a children's story ... a fairytale style story.

But no creation account makes sense .... don't expect them to.

About the book with 25 creation accounts:
1) when was it written
2) have any additional creation accounts been introduced since this book was written
3) if no additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why haven't there been any?
4) if additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why isn't the book you're referring to amended to include additional creation accounts?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

About the book with 25 creation accounts:
1) when was it written
2) have any additional creation accounts been introduced since this book was written
3) if no additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why haven't there been any?
4) if additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why isn't the book you're referring to amended to include additional creation accounts?

If you are all that curious then check into this book :
http://www.amazon.com/In-Beginning-Creation-Stories-Around/dp/0152387420

And search the web. You'll find plenty creation accounts.

[Mutcer]

About the book with 25 creation accounts:
1) when was it written
2) have any additional creation accounts been introduced since this book was written
3) if no additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why haven't there been any?
4) if additional creation accounts have been introduced since that book was written, why isn't the book you're referring to amended to include additional creation accounts?

If you are all that curious then check into this book :
http://www.amazon.com/In-Beginning-Creation-Stories-Around/dp/0152387420

And search the web. You'll find plenty creation accounts.

Why is how the world came into existence so important with respect to a present day belief in a God?