Europe ?

To take the discussion a bit more philosophical…

We could speculate that the entire global financial situation might be expressed with a single word…

More.

We’re already the richest generation ever to walk the face of the earth, but we’re still engaged in an endlessly compulsive search for more.

Thus, as example, we here in the U.S are racking up huge deficits year after year, because we can’t take a sensible pause in our quest for more. Many of Europe’s problems seem to be of this nature as well.

The endless quest for more did make some sense back when nobody knew where their next meal was coming from. Perhaps that habit is so ingrained in our genes after millions of years, that we just don’t know how to adapt to a new situation?

I don’t dispute that there are plenty of assholes in attendance every where one goes, and that I can be one of them. What this has to do with the thread is less clear.

The documented historical fact is that the 20th century was characterized by a series of huge problems arising out of European culture. The next documented fact is that the 20th century ended just a dozen years ago. Thus, it’s fairly reasonable to wonder if Europe is about to hand us yet another global crisis.

It’s true the U.S is on a reckless financial course. We seem to have learned little from the recent financial meltdown. In that sense, we truly are assholes as a nation.

However, the U.S. financial union is not currently on the edge of dissolving. We don’t currently face the threat of a domino collapse of one state after another. We may be setting the stage for all this here, but we aren’t there yet, as Europe almost is.

It has a lot to do with capitalism, the virtual nature of money’s worth, how this has alienated us from the hoarding instinct you mention. Now we try to accumulate money so that we can feel comfortable that we’ll always be able to buy food, and as such focus on expanding the money supply to the greatest degree possible as though that somehow means more people will get fed.

Basically, there’s a bunch of unscrupulous bastards who managed to fool us into thinking borrowing money makes that money valuable, and we were foolish enough to go along to get along. Three centuries later, and the inevitable is here. It has nothing to do with Europe or the US or Japan or wherever because we’re pretty much all in the same boat.

If anything, it is Wall Street that is responsible for the controlled demolition of the Euro, so as to keep the dollar afloat. It has nothing to do with any of Contra-Nietzsche’s crap.

I can’t wait to see you qualify this remark.

Assuming you’re talking about WW2, I would strongly dispute that this arise ‘out of European culture’. It had a lot to do with US banks loaning money to countries in both sides of the conflict as a means of avoiding lending money into the US economy which at that point had completely tanked. Indeed, without the Federal Reserve and their cartel causing the crash of the 1920s, Germany would not have been so desperate as to elect Hitler, Wall Street wouldn’t have loaned him all that money, the Rockefeller companies wouldn’t have supplied him with all the poisonous gases and the bomber plane fuel and WW2 would never have happened.

Oh, but it happened primarily IN Europe, ergo to an American asshole looking to preach and stick his dick up in pride at his apparently wonderful country, it must have happened BECAUSE OF Europe, or even worse, ‘European culture’. Yeah, ignore the US role in starting every major war, and you can blame it on whoever else you like. Just what the Pentagon wants you to do, and here you are doing it.

It is reasons like this that the rest of the world thinks Americans are stupid and gullible and believe what they are told by authorities.

Yeah, because the US just keeps to itself and doesn’t in any way influence the pattern and direction of ‘global crises’. Because it’s a utopian nation full of highly intelligent, informed, active, responsible, moral, democratic people. Oh, hang on, no it isn’t, it’s full of money-grabbing, selfish, ignorant, materialistic, soulless soap opera junkies.

You aren’t assholes for making the same mistakes a lot of other places make. You’re assholes for being smug and pretending that you aren’t making those same mistakes, as you have on this thread, as have other Yanks on this thread, as have almost all of the Yanks here on almost every thread they post on about their beloved Amurrrrka.

You haven’t a clue. The dissolution of the Euro would actually be a very good move for most European economies. Just because your newspapers and the TV uses lazy metaphors like ‘domino collapse’ (whatever the fuck that means) doesn’t mean it is actually going to happen. The collapse has already happened - the US and Europe are in a massive real terms recession, have huge unemployment. A lot of that is because both think just adding to the debt pile is the answer. Allowing an effectively bankrupt currency to fall and creating the space for new currencies to spring up and replace it is potentially the best economic move Europe could make right now, given the pre-existing circumstances. It’s like when a sick old relative finally dies, it would actually be a moment of relief, would probably get people spending again.

Imho, the problem is deeper than that. As evidence I would offer that most of the people in the developed world (where these financial problems are erupting) have never been hungry a day in their life. We take food and other basic survival needs largely for granted.

The consumer culture which dominates these economies is largely about stuff that we don’t really need, ipods and such. A couple of billion people across the developed world spend their entire lives working at jobs they don’t like, in order to buy things that they mostly don’t need. This speaks to some kind of deeper psychological malfunction.

A real world example. The peak of my business career and my Dad’s retirement happened at the same time. During those years, my bank account, house and car were all worth approximately 100x that of my Dad, whose life was clean and safe, but quite modest.

There was no observable difference between his happiness and mine. But of course that didn’t stop me from trying to build an ever bigger pile of cash and stuff etc. If I had instead chosen to live like my Dad, I probably would never had needed to work again. But, being your typical modern citizen, I jumped back on the merry-go-round.

Ok, I could go along with this.

I don’t know about this, but wouldn’t dispute it. It’s true that Wallstreet is completely out of control, and has nobody’s interests at heart except it’s own. What’s strange is that we STILL let them roll the dice with our entire civilization. We seem to be very, very dense.

I’m not sure most of us really realize how quickly a financial collapse can turn in to yet another world war. When people’s backs are against the wall, literally anything can happen.

Perhaps the WallStreet types think they are immune from such consequences, and that would have been true in the past, but most likely isn’t now. The dogs of war are MUCH bigger than they were the last time we almost demolished all of western civilization.

Sorry for the gloom and doom, but knowing all this could be just around the corner does tend to focus the mind.

I can’t wait to find a thread where I don’t have to. Sigh…

Perhaps you’ve heard of WWI, WWII and the cold war? If Europe hadn’t been acting like Europe, none of this would have happened.

Please react to this with any hysterical anti-Americanism that pleases you.

Haha…
Having read no more than that one post in this thread, I thought, “He must be replying to SIATD”

I’ll have my own brand before long too, just you wait and see.

Apologies for any excessively enthusiastic rhetoric I may have brought to the thread. It’s not my intention to start a war between Europeans and Americans, as we are brothers in the end. A squabbling family sometimes perhaps, but still family.

Oh look, another Yank has turned up to say something smug. I am surprised.

And even though you are probably not a Yank, you seem to be keeping up in this smugness arms race. Perhaps the Europeans can defend themselves after all??? HELP, my whole smug condescending thesis is going up in smoke!!

Yeah, it’s such a pain in the arse, coming and expressing your opinions on a philosophy forum only to have some unreasonable bastard actually ask you to qualify them. I mean, who would have thought it? On a philosophy forum no less?

1. I have addressed WW2 above, which you have avoided by labelling ‘hysterical anti-Americanism’. It is a fact that Wall Street lent money to Europe in the pre-war period because the domestic US market was in the shit. It is a fact that a significant chunk of that money helped Hitler. It is a fact that the poor economic conditions caused by the US crash is in part why the Germans were desperate enough to vote for Hitler and put up with his somewhat less than ideal morals.
2. WW1 wasn’t really a WW, it was a European war like so many others. Indeed, we were merrily going along having wars with each other for a long, long time before WW2 caused what you term a ‘global crisis’. Funny, European wars in Europe = perfectly fine, but an American-supported war in Europe = Terrible and the Europeans are all to blame! Looked at another way, it was only when the US decided to get involved that Europe became a cradle for what you term ‘global crisis’. Just like it was only when the ‘credit crunch’ that STARTED IN THE US spread to Europe that it became a ‘global crisis’. Funny how quickly you’ve forgotten WHERE this financial crash and resulting recession ACTUALLY began.
3. The Cold War was a direct result of the Yalta conference. The three negotiating ‘sides’ at the Yalta conference added up to, at best, 1 European. Russia isn’t really European, at best is half European. Likewise, Britain is not European, it’s half European. The US clearly isn’t European, because you’re claiming the US is happy land while Europe is the cause of all the world’s problems. So 1/3 of the Yalta conference was European, and therefore approximately 1/3 of the Cold War was down to Europe.

In effect, what you are saying is that the US was dragged into WW2 against its will, which isn’t true, and was dragged into the Cold War against its will, which isn’t true. What was the battleground for the Cold War? When the US overthrew Arbenz in Guatemala, that was presumably somehow Europe’s fault. When the US fought the Huk rebellion in the Philippines, that was presumably somehow Europe’s fault. When they tried to invade Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, that was presumably somehow Europe’s fault. When they continued to try to overthrow Castro, leading to the Cuban missile crisis, that was presumably somehow Europe’s fault. When they invaded Vietnam full scale, that was presumably somehow Europe’s fault.

Oh, hang on, the US managed to do all those fucking things itself, and yet you stand here saying that Europe is the origin of global crises? Fuck you and your country. Label this ‘anti-American’ if you like, I’m sure the CIA, the arms industry, and Barack sodding Obama will love you for it while they continue to fist you up to the gall bladder.

No, it speaks to unscrupulous bastards taking advantage of dim people and channeling the natural hoarding instinct towards acquisition of status-based consumer disposables. Nothing ‘deep’ about it, it’s actually really simple. Once again, you’re looking for something that means you avoid responsibility for your own actions.

In other words, you were a dim person taken in by lies. Precisely what I said Americans were and you labelled it anti-American. Funny, that.

Perhaps you should have considered such possibilities before leaping on the ‘Europe is about to drag us into a global financial crisis’ bandwagon outlined above. That bandwagon is idiotic - we’re already in a global financial crisis, and it started in the US several years ago. To now pretend that everything is fine and in fact Europe is on the verge of dragging us into another global crisis, due to a problem created in the US, is the height of dimwitted hypocrisy.

But it makes you a GREAT American citizen, and means people like Contra Nietzsche and James Sucks Saints will love you, because they are just as dimwitted and just as hypocritical. The proof is on this very thread. The longer they go on with this attitude, thinking they are somehow being clever or noble, the more proof they present. It would be amusing to watch, if it weren’t for the fact that America is the most powerful and influential country in the world, and therefore it having a thoroughly dimwitted and hypocritical population means it is ripe to be used as a tool for plunder and power.

US financial collapse spreads to Europe and causes World War - sure it’s a plausible scenario. It’s also plausible that after it happens the Americans will be sitting around blaming Europe for it happening.

It has already happened. This entire thread is based on a total delusion as well as a bit of nationalistic chest-thumping by an emasculated ex-squaddie and a moralising fool.

I don’t even identify myself as British, let alone European. I just can’t stand the hypocrisy of Americans blaming Europeans for causing global crises. If I were African I would be saying the same thing simply because it’s true.

Oh whoa is you, who cares?

Clearly you do, or you would not have responded so many times.

The problem for you is that you now have two options - respond again and confirm that you do in fact care, or don’t respond in a display of how little you care, which in reality also confirms that you do in fact care…

Like I say, dimwitted hypocrites who aren’t even aware how obviously they are demonstrating that they are dimwitted hypocrites. It’s in your own interests as Americans to admit this, comes to terms with it, and do something about it. Instead, you’re just going to keep banging on about how rich you are and how right you are about everything until the moment you are all pushed off the cliff like a herd of buffalo.

And the word you were looking for is ‘woe’, not ‘whoa’.

Ha, ha! You got me there, you win that round.

It would be in our interests as Americans to focus on America, but you guys keep sucking us in to your big messes. Americans didn’t start WWI. Americans didn’t start WWII. America would have disarmed after WWII, like we did after WWI, and there would have been no cold war, except that you Euros weren’t done with the conflict yet.

It’s the same thing, time and time again. Remember Bosnia, genocide within the borders of Europe, going on for years? And what did Euros do? Waited for the Big Brother Yanks to come and clean it up for them. Whereupon we are called imperialist warmongers.

How about Libya? Europeans want to take the lead for once, which is great, except that they can’t even conduct a little air war just across the Med, so once again we have to pull the weight.

You don’t mind at all when we repeatedly spend lives and money on defending YOUR freedom, but when we try to do exactly the same thing for anybody but you, then we are declared cowboy imperialist warmonger etc etc.

I propose that what you don’t like about Americans is that we are smart enough not to buy the silly lies Europeans tell themselves, and we’re stupid enough to say it out loud.

Look, there’s exactly zero chance either of us are going to change our minds on any of this, so I suggest we declare this war over and move on. All we can accomplish at this point is to bore the other readers to tears. If you wish to declare victory, I have no objection.

This is so inaccurate it’s like you’re a spambot feeding off DoD press releases. As I explained, America may not have started WW2, but it certainly contributed to the conditions that led to it. As I explained, the Cold War was a direct result of Yalta, which was a tripartite discussion between the British (who aren’t particularly European), the Russians (who aren’t Europeans) and the Americans (who aren’t European). You don’t even know the history of your country, you’re just sticking to this ‘we got pulled into your fight’ nonsense because you have no evidence for what you’re saying.

Again, you are clueless. The breakup of Yugoslavia was a NATO policy through and through. The US and many European intelligence agencies sat back and watched as the Iranians armed the Muslim Bosnians and the Catholic Croats against the Serbs who had seized control of the former Yugoslav army. Eventually, the US DoD took over the arms pipeline, creating the circumstances whereby Bosnia could fight back, leading to the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Krajina. The second main war, in Kosovo, was a direct result of this policy.

The story you’ve told is pure propaganda. It’s something you’ve heard somewhere and are just repeating without the slightest thought. I bet you can’t even find Bosnia on a map.

Once again you’ve just bought into the press release. That’s like me saying the British got sucked into the American wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are after all far bigger wars, that are far more destructive and generate far more global crisis. It’s like me denying my country’s responsibility for helping to sell that war. I bet you can’t even find Libya on a map.

Yes, that’s what these wars are about, defending our freedoms. Spoken like a true Bush.

Fuck you and your country. If you buy into these lies then you deserve to see everything you believe in crumble and burn.

No, it’s just that you’re a stupid nation of arrogant bullies who tell yourselves you are a clever nation of democratic humanitarians. Fuck you and your country.

Fine, I declare victory. Fuck you and your country.

Blah, blah, blah, blah…

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b5g1avyCSA[/youtube]

I honestly don’t think Europe is capable of competently pulling off a world war right now… we tried hard as hell to stabilize Europe during the Bush administration, but they proved to incompetent. We brought the border regions- Spain, Italy, Ukraine, and Poland… places that would be the first to take a invasion, into the war with us, and all but Poland took a massive shit all over themselves doing simple tasks, like loading up in their vehicles, and going on patrols, and making sure the syrians or iranians were NOT setting up stockpiles, fortifying killzones, etc. Complete failure. Right now, we’re stuck with the baby steps… trying to get Romania and Bulgaria up and running. I swear to God, Europe is the Anti-Skynet from Terminator 3… you pump all this money and technology into it over generations to unify it, stabilize and modernize it, and then unleash it for a relatively simple defense operation… and it’s starts to shake and vomit and then putters out into a emo trip and falls apart.

If a civil war broke out across Europe, I doubt most nations would successfully pull it off. Yes, they understand logistics, but the means of pushing on and taking a ojective, much less preparing ground and defending it is beyond them. Europe’s become the second world essentially, but with third world passions and first world technology. Libya and near universal hesitancy in pushing into Syria is evidence of this.

Everything SAIDT said was largely incomprehensible, other than the generic fuck you americans. Europe was the repeated cause that dragged the US into world wars. And Russians and British are indeed European, as is Malta, Greece, Istanbul, Poland, Sardinia, Majorica, Norway, Lithuania, all spiraling inward. Hamburg and Paris isn’t more european than warsaw or athens or dublin. It’s what you are. Nebraska isn’t more North American than Anchorage or Quebec or Miami.

However, all said, Europe is more than capable of fighting a incompetent grouping of continental wars, as well as randomly projecting force into africa half assed… but still enough for the time being to overtake the African Union or Arab League- but not for long. If Europe goes down the shithole, you can kiss the Spanish possessions off Morocco goodbye. In time, alot of French oversees departments will go bye bye. You’ll likely see african peacekeepers such as EOTC come to Europe via the UN to help put and police these border disputes and failed governments. And I suspect NATO will continue to exist in a odd, bullshit form through this all, not really doing anything effective given the SAIDT Phenomena of everyone blaiming everyone else, and pretending like the last scuffle that happened was a abnormality and everything will go back to ‘normal’.

Unfortunately, back stabbing and delusion is the European way, and it is the normal state of affairs reasserting itself.

I am completely for a military pullout of Germany and most of Europe- stick around for a few years more to give Poland a chance- 20th century was pretty cruel to them, so I say, since they stuck it out in Iraq, give them the best chance of surviving the upcoming wars. England has one hell of a Moat, everyone else fuck em. Let’s pull out after electing SAIDT Prime Minister of Europe.

Obvious way out- what the US did when we switched from the Articles of Confederation to the Current Constitution. Like, seriously, we stopped a European style meltdown from happening via it. Even during out Civil War is wasn’t a state by state collapse, but a BLOC mentality, and both sides knew what they were doing, and still had enough of a economy to feed a large chunk of western europe, especially England. I don’t see Europe doing this is the melt down continues, producing enough food for North America while building up the largest and most complex military administration and most advanced tactics and understanding of poloircretics ever known in the history of man. They will all just collapse into their little city states and regions, and will cry country and internationalism while backstabbing one another over absurdities. Maybe a soverign country intact here or there.

I notice Switzerland after all this time has never given pause to maintaining it’s extreme defensive stance. They still don’t trust the crazy Europeans. They like… know better from experience. Everyone in Europe acts all civil for a generation or two, then shits a brick and goes insane, breaking stuff left and right. Switzerland isn’t having anything to do with that stuff. They picked up by now the strategy is to just stay the hell away from their fluctuations, and make a little money on the side when you can playing their stupid economics.

…Hate to say this but all you guys are mixing ideology with nationalism and economic determinism. The fact is, the gross ideological messes mixed with breakups of Ottoman, Hapsburg, russian empires were true to a large degree a reaction to democratic wars started around 1848–and culminating into splinters of fascism, communism, capitalism, ---- mixed with the vacuums left by the disenfranchised of vested interests---------these interests were, even then basically of global consequence. Fascism was a spin off more as a reaction, whereas communism spread from London to Russia and threatening our shores. To claim that nationalism was the culprit is absurd