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matty wrote:From a Deleuzian p-o-v, I do not see why the thing you refer to as the object, virtually-speaking, is any different from what a Whiteheadian would call relations, or, better yet, an event.
matty wrote:The only problem I have with this, and with a lot of Speculative Realism, is the reification of the object.
James S Saint wrote:So If by whatever means, every molecule of a dog gets altered to become that of a rabbit, then it is still a dog, that merely behaves like a rabbit?
James S Saint wrote:What something does on the most essential level, defines what it is.
James S Saint wrote:What it was prior to any change, is irrelevant to rationality other than to propose the hope or threat of potential change.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:Make yourself intelligible if you are to feign criticism.
James S Saint wrote:What something does on the most essential level, defines what it is.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:I appreciate your contrary assertion. Here, let me try my hand at it: the shape of the trajectory of a thing's movement of becoming defines what it is.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:Also, what is it you mean by the phrase "essential level"?
At which stage do you locate the shift from doghood to rabbithood?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:It seems rather fashionable today to denounce the distinction between being and doing, to reduce the being of an object to its effects
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:it is nothing but what we can observe of it
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:All is relational
James S Saint wrote:anthropo-eccentricism wrote: At which stage do you locate the shift from doghood to rabbithood?
Irrelevant.
That is merely an issue of epistemology and semantics, having nothing to do with what something is, but rather what we are to call it.
James S Saint wrote:You don't know what "essential" means?
Hell, no wonder you need assistance with intelligence.
James S Saint wrote:If the rat doesn't understand you, you need to be more "intelligible".
James S Saint wrote:Platonic entities exists ONLY in their own realm once called "the divine" or "ideal", separate from the physical. And in that realm, they do not change or DO anything. But that realm is necessarily separate from physical existence which is entirely and only the changing, the doing.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:You can't be serious.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:You want to argue that one thing is a dog, and after a process of change, it is a rabbit---and you shrug off the responsibility of locating a locus for such a change
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:(is it genetics, is it behaviour, is it appearance?---you've ignored this question),
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:This isn't a respectable position
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:You seem to hold onto the belief that there are essences that underlie changing entities.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:But you refuse to provide reason for such a position.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:Who is the rat in our exchange?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote: If you want to cling to a belief in Platonic essences, then I can rather easily make sense of the rest of your post.
That is merely an issue of epistemology and semantics, having nothing to do with what something is, but rather what we are to call it.
Typist wrote:Other than that my review would be, too much fancy wordage. If something can't be said in every day plain language, it probably doesn't merit being said.
how is it that the virtual, understood as a preindividual, undifferentiated continuum, comes to differentiate itself in the process of actualization? Why does the individual exist at all? What do actualizations, what does concrete difference add to the preindividual continuum? Is there an agency that instigates the process? In short: explain for me the philosophic advantage gained by conceptualizing the virtual as a preindividual topography. This is by no means a new problematic; the same questions plagued Plato's conception of the forms: why do they instantiate themselves at all; what is to be gained by copying themselves?

Typist wrote:I cast my vote with James. Reality is one thing, and the divisions suggested by definitions are inventions of the human mind. Useful in many ways, but with a price tag of creating a distorted image of reality.
Let me dumb it down for you.
Without the virtual, you are confined to the thesis that objects are wholly actual, a thesis familiar to those of the Whiteheadian ilk. Now, what this means is that when an object changes, there must come a stage after which the object that once was ceases to exist, a stage after which a perfectly and entirely new object comes to be. Can you see the way you've undermined your own attempt at a criticism?
You want to say: the reality is X, regardless of how we cut it up and label it.
I want to say: the reality is X, and it is by introducing the concept of the virtual that I hope to account for it.
Without the virtual, you really must account for actual (non-definitional) divisions in the process of change.
What I want is for you (and James) to go ahead and account for them. To this, you respond: mere semantics.
Further, I find your condescension mostly comedic, but partly depressing. As is the case with James: I'm fascinated psychologically, but philosophically, I just can't bring myself to care.

anthropo-eccentricism wrote:In any case, there's a sort of tension between monism understood as a single (virtual) being that is broken up into disparate entities in the process of actualization, and monism understood as a single type of being, whether actual or virtual. It is the latter reading that I favour.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:The thing I refer to as the object, virtually-speaking, is always-already a counterpart, always-already a reference to, the object, actually-speaking. They are two sides of the same coin, if you will---a coin that ceaselessly flips. Now, why is this different from the Whiteheadian's relations? Because, as I understand it, an object, for Whitehead, just is the way it relates to other objects, it just is the way it "prehends" the objects with which it relates. I may, of course, be wrong---for I'm extremely poorly versed in Whitehead---but this is precisely the view that an introduction of the virtual seeks to move away from. If an object is nothing but its prehensions, then it is wholly actual---it possesses no virtually dormant capacities.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote: We flirt dangerously with some form of Platonism if we hold that the virtual hovers over and above every actualization, that it precedes and subsists them. By individuating the virtual, I think we can hold onto a wholly immanent view, while preserving the capacities of objects to do and be otherwise than they are within any one given network of relations.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:What is it about objects that trouble you?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote: how is it that the virtual, understood as a preindividual, undifferentiated continuum, comes to differentiate itself in the process of actualization? Why does the individual exist at all? What do actualizations, what does concrete difference add to the preindividual continuum? Is there an agency that instigates the process? In short: explain for me the philosophic advantage gained by conceptualizing the virtual as a preindividual topography. This is by no means a new problematic; the same questions plagued Plato's conception of the forms: why do they instantiate themselves at all; what is to be gained by copying themselves?
matty wrote:As for Whitehead, however, I think you are wrong because I don't think he took the object to be real at all - rather, the object is our reification of relations, forces, events. In that respect, the object is wholly actual, and I think this agrees with Deleuze, for whom the virtual is not made up of “dormant capacities” (i.e. possibilities) but of pure differences (i.e. intensities).
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:I think I may be confused about the Deleuzian individual: absolutely singular, wholly concrete, and yet---never fully actualized, always in the process of differentiating. Does this sound correct?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:I'm inclined to understand Deleuze's individual in the same way you've described Whitehead's: a reification of an open-ended process of the expression of virtual intensities/differences, or, for Whitehad, of relations and prehensions.
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:This coheres with what I take to be the basin of attraction of any problematic field, problematic in the D&R sense. My pool-table isn't leveled properly, so balls have a tendency to settle near the far left corner. The pool-table as problematic field, the far left corner is its basin of attraction. Does this sound anything like what you're getting at with your invocation of the agency-less tendencies to become-x of virtual intensities?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:Now, you write that the resultant crystallization is an "actual form." Is this form a reification as it is for Whitehead, is it only a snapshot of a process of "actual forming" (of virtual intensities), a "moment" of being-as-becoming?
anthropo-eccentricism wrote:All that said, I think I need to better understand Deleuze's concept of difference. Is there anything in the secondary literature you might recommend me? I'm currently slogging through Difference & Repetition---a great read, but by no means an easy one.
matty wrote:Withdrawal is another of those concepts I need to understand better - it sounds too Kantian to me at the moment...
...for such thinkers as Bergson and Deleuze, for whom becoming is what is primarily real, ... discrete individual entities are derivative of [a] more primal flux or flow. This position ... cannot explain how such a primary becoming could ever be broken up into independent zones or districts, let alone full-blown individuals.
matty wrote:Anyway, onto Meillassoux's contribution, then back to Levi!
matty wrote: Ultimately, I'm not so sure, because I'm now starting to think that it doesn't matter whether we call what withdraws relational or objective, it remains pretty much the same thing.
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