Joe Schmoe wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:There is much more to life than simply wanting to be in a state of bliss.
What else do you see? I'm curious.
I see much. The below will direct you to some of it. But can you refine your parameters?
Love is but one more pleasure, one more drive. If you want to share, but you don't, tension exists. So, if you struggle for something, it's because you anticipate satisfaction afterwards. Your goal is satisfaction.
Love is not always a drive - it may also simply be - if it is LOVE.
That isn't necessarily true. Human beings may struggle for things and that struggling may not always or even often reap results. So what is it then that allows humans to continue struggling? Yes, it is the hope that satisfaction will come to us in achieving our goals. It is also the struggle itself which may be satisfying on another level. Even if one were not to reach their destination, couldn't the journey still be satisfying? Humans need struggles and problems - sometimes even those problems for which there are no answers) in order to feel more alive. Being able to 'feel more alive' is at least as important to satisfaction and bliss, in my book. I do not intuit that 'feeling more alive' has to translate into 'bliss' or 'satisfaction'. But I may be wrong here.
Wiki [Reality Principle] - "Maturity is learning to endure the pain of deferred gratification, when reality requires it;
True, that is [one] sign of maturity. It doesn't necessarily have to be painful though unless one focuses on it too much. Lose the focus, and the pain or the 'itch' leaves.
thus, the psychoanalytic psychologist Sigmund Freud proposes that “an ego thus educated has become ‘reasonable’; it no longer lets itself be governed by the pleasure principle, but obeys the reality principle, which also, at bottom, seeks to obtain pleasure, but pleasure which is assured through taking account of reality, even though it is pleasure postponed and diminished
You mean 'more' reasonable' in the moment. There are other ways in which the ego takes over and a person becomes less reasonable.
True, when there is more clarity about one's life and what is real, in actuality, intelligence and emotions can live together in harmony. Pleasure does not necessarily have to be derived from something which makes someone feel extreme joy and happiness. It can be a simple singular moment where one feels alive, has a sensation of 'being there'. The sound of a bird chirping can do this (lol) but one does need to live in a more detached way for this to 'happen'. You're basically speaking of living in self-awareness.
Drive theory suggests to me that we want to remove struggle and find relaxation. To struggle, to me, is far removed from relaxation.
Commonly said "Don't struggle, just relax. It'll be over soon
Perhaps it would depend more on the type of struggle one is experiencing. The body, but especially the mind, I think, is experiecing a negative state when it is really, really hungry. That's a struggle.
At the same time, why would someone want to run a 20-mile marathon, considering what they might have to endure, knowing that it's possible they might not even finish the race. Much if not most of the race is a struggle yet to them it isn't about finding relaxation - it's more about 'transcending' that negative state of tension
when needs are not satisfied. It's more about facing into the wind and enduring, not running away from. I don't feel that drive theory presupposes that we run away from these negative states. They are necessary for mental/emotional and spiritual health and growth. Sorry for compartmentalizing. lol
Did you happen to watch Nik Wallenda's high-wire walk across Niagara Falls into Canada, through wind and mist and falcons this past weekend? It was absolutely amazing...breathtaking...incredible...insane...(albeit he planned it for almost 3 years and there must have been such a level of confidence (he certainly had faith too) - but at the same time so awe inspiring to me. I wonder what his level of bliss vs. non-bliss was for him. I would not have missed that for anything though at first I had decided not to watch it - but then was so glad I did. I wonder, was he trying to remove struggle and find relaxation in that, Mr. Schmoe?
Arcturus Descending wrote:Perhaps a sense of who we are and trusting in possibilities leads to bliss before the achievement.
Yeah, I can see this. It'd depend on the individual, though.
Truth be told, things in most situations/circumstances, depend on the individual. We sometimes tend to forget this. Perhaps it is those who are more able to swim 'against' the tide, those who have had to do 'just' that so often within their lives, when there was no other choice, who are able to sense and trust in possibilities, no matter what.
Arcturus Descending wrote:I do not think that I would want to have total satisfaction always. Everything being relative, if we were always satisfied, eventually it would lose its meaning, no?
Are you saying constantly being satisfied would stop being satisfying? That doesn't make sense
I don't know, Mr. Schmoe.
For me, this is based on empirical knowledge and also intuition. When everything is going your way and life becomes one without struggle, don't you sometimes get an 'itch'? It isn't that you wish for struggle and chaos in your life, lol, but not having experienced it for a while, and everything being so copacetic, life can begin to get a bit boring. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just a more positive type of masochist who needs struggle for growth.
I won't deny that there are those, who for the most part, have been born into a pretty non-chaotic and harmonious life, one which others might call 'blessed'. Struggle is not the only way in which to grow/evolve. The above, who are intelligent/compassionate/self-aware - who are able to learn/become wise through clarity of vision/introspection/seeing the world in its reality albeit through looking at a world in pain, there surely must be some struggle for them - (unless they are compassionately detached) - these do grow without the struggle which I am speaking about.
I can't see how you could want anything other than satisfaction. I believe this to be the objective of want
Is that necessarily true? I mean, I could be thoroughly off the wall here but perhaps satisfaction IS NOT necessarily the 'only' objective of want. Want is part of the prerequisite of 'being' but does that mean that we always have to attain satisfaction? I would think that the spirit and soul (whatever) would stagnate and stop growing if we are always satisfied. Maintaining want within ourselves is important for our survival I think. If i got everything i wanted and desired in my life where would life's meaning go? What would be left to STRIVE for?
Spiritual growth? Elaborate, please
Everything and anything, both the positive and the negative, which contributes to our becoming. And of course, within that, the negative becomes the positive through self-awareness and insight and also hindsight. lol. Our spiritual growth is an on-going journey, a process, into wholeness, into a fullness of Being. What is spiritual encompasses all of our humanity - the psychic, emotional, physical, and the spirit and soul (if we have a soul). Even what you and I are doing in here contributes to our spiritual growth, because we are thinking and learning and sharing (hopefully).
Arcturus Descending wrote:
It isn't a question of 'seeking' struggle so much as it is 'allowing' it in order to grow. To deliberately seek it may be masochism unless it's in order to evolve.
Grow into what? Something that's better at surviving
lol. Well, something that's better at surviving could even be a rock. No, Mr. Schmoe, I meant growing more and more into the human being, the total human being who will always be incomplete, but more complete. But then again, there are those who feel that our destiny will someday be one of a transhuman.
So then we will cross-over into that - whatever that is. I'm digressing here. lol. AND YES, growing into something that also IS better at surviving, without the use of those escapes that harm us more than help us.
Also, growing into something where we are all able to teach others how to survive. We are an inter-dependent species.
The pressure we feel, those of use born in the 'Western' world, is mainly a product of our awareness, rather than biological needs
Hmmm...I think it's a combination of both. Our physiology does to some extent, depending on the individual, influence our awareness. They're related. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning here though.
Our drives, that were so crucial to dragging ourselves out the mud, are applied to our mind. To our thoughts and awareness. And what are our drives? To find equilibrium, satisfaction, bliss, calm. So, we try to find peace with all we are aware of.
There's no drive to become more? To evolve? Unless you are including the satisfaction which comes from the journey toward completion, though again, there can never be that...except in moments.
We became aware of our death. To find calmness with our awareness of death, one must embrace it and pull it closer. However, as one does, life loses it's value. Since one is alive, this causes pressure in itself. We are stuck in a rut.*
i disagree with you here. Again, i suppose that it would depend on the individual and one's perception and sense of self-awareness and identity. When one is able to accept and to embrace the ultimate reality of death, one's life does not lose value. If anything, life can gain more value and clarity. ..have more meaning. It finds meaning in the present moment...which is ad continuum....because at some point it begins to realize that there will be an end...at least to life as we know it before death. An awareness of ultimate Death also allows us to to question, to seek and to understand what is quality of life as opposed to quantity of life and to experience that.
I think that there might just be a sense of being [stuck in a rut] if we were immortal. On the other hand, that would also depend on the individual and his/her zest for life, the ability to carpe diem!!!!
What is the most comfortable position? Sitting on the fence. Finding the closest point between the two pressures, and relaxing. What happens when one does this? I don't know. I haven't experienced that luxury. I'm still finding my balance.
Sitting on the fence means taking no action, which may be comfortable, and not in the sense of wu wei wu which is non-action and which is definitely not always comfortable but beneficial.
I am also still trying to find my balance, which doesn't necessarily mean always sitting between those two pressures and relaxing. Sometimes we have to veer more to the right and more to the left depending on what's going on. I suppose that there's even balance in that. Sometimes it's simply a matter of losing one's present focus, detaching and focusing on something else and living lightly. I am trying to learn to live more lightly...I do not so much like 'lightly' it would seem. But there are times when I do....
There's a saying that goes, "The sweet is never as sweet without the sour". When someone suffers, as a cancer patient would, all the little pleasures would become far more potent. That little pleasure * 10 = Bliss. Ah, but it is only temporary...
This is what I was speaking about when I said "Everything being relative, if we were always satisfied, eventually it would lose its meaning, no"? Yes, I understand that that little pleasure, that little moment, becomes a 10. And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could learn from those who have constant painful and psychological struggle - if we could only be intelligent and perceptive enough to allow them to teach us, even unknowingly - those of us who cry and whimper at the least thing, (myself included) who have to desperately chase after their own hedonistic pleasures because we think that this is all there is? Even if this is all there is and nothing after death, I wonder if in the long run we would be more content and happy not trying to chase our own tails and not trying to capture those 'butterflies'? Perhaps simply showing others that there are those butterflies.....and dragonflies.
It would seem that there are different experiences which could be named 'death'. The death of 'struggle and pain' and the death experienced through struggle and pain. Perhaps also the death which is experienced when the heightened sense of happiness dissolves. It is all a form of feath preparing us for that final one.
I don't think what you've expressed goes against my position. You say there's something more to life than bliss, I would agree. There's lack there of. Everything you've spoke about, in regards to why one does what one does, I can easily attribute to same intent.
I think we're looking at the same picture, and you're describing it differently.
Let's not forget, Mr. Schmoe, that there are degrees of bliss vs. non-bliss and quality pertaining to that which is experienced, depending on our brain chemistry, our zest for life, our own wills, endurance and where our individual journeys have taken us and what has been shown us.
You mean "we
are" describing it differently.
I have jury duty for about two weeks but I will return.