Simulated Reality: Everything The Way We Want It

[Typist]

The screenshot below came from a great post by volchok. The post was quite funny, and made it's way to one of my favorite topics. What fun!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=179262

I wanted to followup on this entertaining beginning, and invite members to discuss virtual reality in more depth. To start things off...

What if there was a room in your house where you could have, be, experience, anything you want? I'll propose that the creation of this room has long been a key driver of human development, and that within the next generation or two this historic process will begin to reach it's goals.

As a shortcut, StarTrek fans will be familiar with the Holodeck, which is perhaps one of the best dramatizations of this concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck

Imho, it shortchanges this topic to think of it only as "futuristic whizz bang technology". Instead, we might examine a long process starting with cave men telling stories around the campfire, and leading to literature, the stage, radio, movies, television and now the net. Each of these developments can be seen as another step along the path to something like the Holodeck.

It seems indisputable to me that the market for such a device would be huge, just as it has been for the stage, radio, movies, television, net etc. It follows that if huge numbers of people will pay for it, somebody will figure out how to deliver it. So in my mind the question is when will we have our Holodeck, not if we will. Sooner or later people will have access to some virtual reality environment where they can very convincingly have anything they want.

What are the implications of such developments?

We can already see how even primitive virtual realities such as TV or say, a forum, can compete quite successfully with reality. This isn't a futuristic theory, we're already doing it. In this moment you and I are choosing virtual friends over face to face friends, because of the relatively high degree of control we have in this environment. If I'm starting to bore you, you don't have to be polite and endure it, you can zoom away at the flick of a mouse.

What's going to happen as virtual reality technology can provide ever more compelling and convincing simulations? Will this be the ultimate fulfillment to our deepest dreams, or the beginning of the end? Maybe both?

If you could have anything, what do you want?

[turtle]

The screenshot below came from a great post by volchok. The post was quite funny, and made it's way to one of my favorite topics. What fun!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=179262

I wanted to followup on this entertaining beginning, and invite members to discuss virtual reality in more depth. To start things off...

What if there was a room in your house where you could have, be, experience, anything you want? I'll propose that the creation of this room has long been a key driver of human development, and that within the next generation or two this historic process will begin to reach it's goals.

As a shortcut, StarTrek fans will be familiar with the Holodeck, which is perhaps one of the best dramatizations of this concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck

Imho, it shortchanges this topic to think of it only as "futuristic whizz bang technology". Instead, we might examine a long process starting with cave men telling stories around the campfire, and leading to literature, the stage, radio, movies, television and now the net. Each of these developments can be seen as another step along the path to something like the Holodeck.

It seems indisputable to me that the market for such a device would be huge, just as it has been for the stage, radio, movies, television, net etc. It follows that if huge numbers of people will pay for it, somebody will figure out how to deliver it. So in my mind the question is when will we have our Holodeck, not if we will. Sooner or later people will have access to some virtual reality environment where they can very convincingly have anything they want.

What are the implications of such developments?

We can already see how even primitive virtual realities such at TV or say, a forum, can compete quite successfully with reality. This isn't a futuristic theory, we're already doing it. In this moment you and I are choosing virtual friends over face to face friends, because of the relatively high degree of control we have in this environment. If I'm starting to bore you, you don't have to be polite and endure it, you can zoom away at the flick of a mouse.

What's going to happen as virtual reality technology can provide ever more compelling and convincing simulations? Will this be the ultimate fulfillment to our deepest dreams, or the beginning of the end? Maybe both?

If you could have anything, what do you want?

very good topic typist.......

we will never have everything....
we will never be satisfied...
it is not human nature...
also i like a mix of virtual and real experiences.....that is pretty good for me

[Typist]

Hi Turtle, thanks for playing.

we will never have everything.... we will never be satisfied...

It's hard to argue against this. It surely does seem to be the pattern so far. Will virtual reality overturn this longstanding pattern?

First I'm dating Jennifer Aniston. No wait, Diane Lane. No wait, both!

Now I'm going over a waterfall in a barrel.

Now I'm flying through the rings of Saturn in my underwear.

Now I'm a blue whale migrating to the Arctic.

Now I'm the most interesting speaker ever to appear at TED.

Now I'm wino experiencing the first glorious mouthful of the day.

The number of compelling experiences virtual reality could provide would seem near infinite. But my time is quite finite. Could virtual reality keep us satisfied long enough?

[Flannel Jesus]

One of the recurring characters in both Next Generation and Voyager, Reginald Barclay, was known for his addiction to the Holodeck. I don't think that that's a minor concern for real-life examples.

If, for example, we suddenly got a technology that could create whatever world we want, and it's like maybe a helmet that costs little enough for even poor people to buy it, it wouldn't be long before we start hearing stories of loads and loads of people starving to death because they didn't want to leave their fantasy world, where they can eat whatever they want, instead of coming into the real world to eat the gruel of reality.

But that's the cost of rapid, cheap advancement in that sort of technology, which is rather unlikely. It's more likely, I think/hope, that such a technology would start out incredibly expensive, maybe $500 for an hour trip or something as opposed to a household item you could use whenever you want. You'd still get some examples of rich people with Holo-addiction, but it wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as a cheap household appliance that does the same function would be.

But perhaps, at some time in the future, when our entire food-industry can be mechanized and not a single person has to work to eat, and everyone can own their own universe in the form of this technology, we might see a world in which everybody spends just about their entire lives in such a machine, getting fed intravenously. In such a world, though, I don't think the desire to create would leave humanity -- it'd probably be set up much like the internet, where people could interact with each other in their own separate worlds, share concepts, talk, share art. Perhaps everyone would be a creator of art of some sort in such a world. Nobody has any need to worry about working, basically infinite wealth, so let's make art!

So, those are two possibilities -- people starving to death, juxtaposed next to a world where everybody is a creator. I'm sure there are more possibilities in between, and more possibilities on the extremes as well. It could be a very horrible invention, or it could be the most beautiful, liberating thing to ever be.

[Typist]

Thank for joining FJ, appreciate it.

One of the recurring characters in both Next Generation and Voyager, Reginald Barclay, was known for his addiction to the Holodeck. I don't think that that's a minor concern for real-life examples.

Agreed. My experience of StarTrek is marginal, so please add details from the show where relevant.

If, for example, we suddenly got a technology that could create whatever world we want, and it's like maybe a helmet that costs little enough for even poor people to buy it, it wouldn't be long before we start hearing stories of loads and loads of people starving to death because they didn't want to leave their fantasy world, where they can eat whatever they want, instead of coming into the real world to eat the gruel of reality.

Um, do you mean like me forgetting to eat lunch every other day because I'm so busy blowharding my way to imaginary intellectual fame?

But that's the cost of rapid, cheap advancement in that sort of technology, which is rather unlikely. It's more likely, I think/hope, that such a technology would start out incredibly expensive, maybe $500 for an hour trip or something as opposed to a household item you could use whenever you want.

Right, agreed, it will be a gradual enhancement of the technology, which we might presume will continue long past where our imaginations can currently go.

But perhaps, at some time in the future, when our entire food-industry can be mechanized and not a single person has to work to eat, and everyone can own their own universe in the form of this technology, we might see a world in which everybody spends just about their entire lives in such a machine, getting fed intravenously.

Welcome to the Matrix! One of my disappointments, and something I'll definitely fix in my virtual world, is that the films that address this topic tend to be rather shallow. Just watched Strange Days again last night. Great concept! Mediocre movie though. The movie Artificial Intelligence is perhaps a solid exception, that was quite well done, as I recall it.

In such a world, though, I don't think the desire to create would leave humanity -- it'd probably be set up much like the internet, where people could interact with each other in their own separate worlds, share concepts, talk, share art.

Ok, yes, that makes sense. I tend to skip that angle, all the virtual worlds can be interconnected, which really does change the picture.

Perhaps everyone would be a creator of art of some sort in such a world.

Great point, some people would use their virtual worlds to create virtual worlds. My thinking on this needs to be updated from the TV age to the Net age. I'm showing my age!

It could be a very horrible invention, or it could be the most beautiful, liberating thing to ever be.

Yes, that's why it intrigues me so. It seems impossible to really do the possibilities math here.

[James S Saint]

If you could have anything, what do you want?

Rationality.

Unchecked emotionalism allows for addiction to artificial pleasures as those pleasures merely satisfy a partially blinded portion of the mind. But the whole point in life is really, "who/what is going to pay for it". And I don't mean merely the dollar figure. Despite rumors to the contrary, life really isn't merely about money.

Every effort costs something. If you choose to turn left instead of right, then you cost yourself the ability to have gone right. If you seek to live in fantasy world A, then you are not living in fantasy world B. Of course your effort is always to decide which is "better". But upon what do you base that decision other than what might feel good.

Feelings, like everything else, are caused. Without sufficient cause, they become random, unpredictable, and untrackable. Eventually you find that you have no basis for decision, even emotional decisions. At that point, all you feel is that you are unsatisfied even though you have the ability to create any virtual world you want. The problem becomes that your wants have no more structure, "decadence". In such a state, an enjoyable world cannot be formed.

So once all of that happens and the person decides that he is too uncomfortable in such fantasy worlds, he turns back to reality. And at that point, is when he discovers the cost of having spent so much time ignoring reality as he turned to the left and left the right behind. He discovers the real effects of entropy and atrophy. No one was minding the store. So what makes him think the store will still be there when he wakes up? And even if it were, what power would he still have with which to deal with it? Ask any recovering drug addict.

Unrestrained fulfillment merely leads to a temporary high followed by decadent death.

"No rules", "non-existence", and "death" are merely 3 terms for the same thing.

[Typist]

Rationality.

So we can see that people will use virtual reality in all kinds of bizarre and unexpected ways!

At that point, all you feel is that you are unsatisfied even though you have the ability to create any virtual world you want. The problem becomes that your wants have no more structure, "decadence". In such a state, an enjoyable world cannot be formed.

Hmm, let's see. Well, rich people already have significant control over their experience of the real world, and it can said that a sense of empty decadence may arise. One of the richest people I've ever known (quite rich) became a life long drug abuser. On the other hand, not too many rich people give up the money, at least not to the extent they lose control over their life circumstances.

So once all of that happens and the person decides that he is too uncomfortable in such fantasy worlds, he turns back to reality.

Which rich people are turning back to reality?

Unrestrained fulfillment merely leads to a temporary high followed by decadent death.

And so of course we have to ask, if we were to give you a free Holodeck for your own house, what would you do with it?

[Typist]

And so of course we have to ask, if we were to give you a free Holodeck for your own house, what would you do with it?

To answer my own question, I have to say, I really don't know. Of course a number of easy ideas come to mind, and I suspect they could keep me entertained for some time. But the bottom line seems to be my imagination simply isn't prepared for such opportunities, because it has had little need for these skills.

Which of us has really asked, what do I really want?

This question should not be confused with, what's the best deal I can get within a limited range of possibilities?

[James S Saint]

Well, rich people already have significant control over their experience of the real world, and it can said that a sense of empty decadence may arise. One of the richest people I've ever known (quite rich) became a life long drug abuser. On the other hand, not too many rich people give up the money, at least not to the extent they lose control over their life circumstances.

So once all of that happens and the person decides that he is too uncomfortable in such fantasy worlds, he turns back to reality.

Which rich people are turning back to reality?

People who get very influential in reality are dealing with reality already. They have nothing "virtual" to give up.

And so of course we have to ask, if we were to give you a free Holodeck for your own house, what would you do with it?

Use it for training and conditioning.... on issues concerning reality.

[SIATD v2]

If you could have anything, what do you want?

Nothing that a reasonable facsimile of reality can offer...

[Typist]

People who get very influential in reality are dealing with reality already. They have nothing "virtual" to give up.

Let's consider three people.

1) The poor person, whose mind is filled with images of the ghetto they live in.

2) The rich person, whose mind is filled with images of the country club they belong to.

3) The virtual reality explorer, whose mind is filled with images of whatever environment they've created.

What unites all three people, and all of humanity, is that we're all trying to control the experience that's going on inside our heads, by managing the incoming data. We try to choose our friends, our job, our neighborhood, all in an attempt to control the internal experience by managing the data coming in from the external environment.

As discussed above, we're doing this right now here in the forum. We're using today's somewhat primitive technology to feed our brains an ongoing stream of philosophical data from the external environment, because our nerd brains crave this flavor of data.

In order to facilitate this data flow, forum technology strips away much of the reality involved. Your identity, your appearance, your personal story, your geographic location, your credentials, a big pile of reality discarded, and few of us seem to care. What we care about is that our brains get the flow of data that we need.

Now, let's take the next step together....

You're reading this post for some reason. The human being sometimes known as Typist has strung together some words that are momentarily capturing your attention, feeding you an acceptable stream of nerd data.

Here's a key point. The human being known as Typist is very limited. I have no philosophy education, my social skills are rudimentary at best, I'm only familiar with a very limited set of topics, and I'm a manic typoholic so you have to tediously dig through huge piles of words to find anything worthwhile, and so on.

What if I wasn't limited? Don't you think that might make my posts more interesting to you?

What if I had an encyclopedic Phd level grasp of every significant philosopher? What if I was utterly charming at all times? What if I had writing skills that allowed me express very interesting ideas in very few words? What if I looked just like your favorite movie star, male or female, and liked to upload videos of me swimming naked in my pool?

Wouldn't you prefer this Typist to the one you currently have?

If the new and improved Typist was improved enough, are you really going to care whether they're human? Remember, if you insist on human, any human, you're stuck with a very limited range of options and abilities.

And anyway, how do you know the current Typist is human? Maybe it's just lame software???

[James S Saint]

Let's consider three people.

Okay..

1) The poor person, whose mind is filled with images of the ghetto they live in.
2) The rich person, whose mind is filled with images of the country club they belong to.
3) The virtual reality explorer, whose mind is filled with images of whatever environment they've created.

What unites all three people, and all of humanity, is that we're all trying to control the experience that's going on inside our heads, ..
.
.
What we care about is that our brains get the flow of data that we need.

Yeah, yeah, yeah..

Now, let's take the next step together....

You're reading this post for some reason. The human being sometimes known as Typist has strung together some words that are momentarily capturing your attention, feeding you an acceptable stream of nerd data.

Here's a key point. The human being known as Typist is very limited. I have no philosophy education, my social skills are rudimentary at best, I'm only familiar with a very limited set of topics, and I'm a manic typoholic so you have to tediously dig through huge piles of words to find anything worthwhile, and so on.

..and thus has value..

What if I wasn't limited? Don't you think that might make my posts more interesting to you?

I think that you wouldn't bother to post, wouldn't inquire, wouldn't see any need in being here... or anywhere.

What if ... philosopher?
What if ...all times?
What if ... words?
What if ... my pool?
Wouldn't you ... currently have?
If ...whether they're human?
And anyway, how do you know the current Typist is human?
Maybe it's just lame software???

ERROR_BAD_FORMAT
11 (0xB)
An attempt was made to load a program with an incorrect format.
ERROR_SIGNAL_REFUSED
156 (0x9C)
The recipient process has refused the signal.
ERROR_UNDEFINED_SCOPE
319 (0x13F)
The Central Access Policy specified is not defined on the target machine.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_CMDS
56 (0x38)
The network BIOS command limit has been reached.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_DESCRIPTORS
331 (0x14B)
The command specified a number of descriptors that exceeded the maximum supported by the device.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_OPEN_FILES
4 (0x4)
The system cannot open the file.
ERROR_OUTOFMEMORY
14 (0xE)
Not enough storage is available to complete this operation.
ERROR_MAX_SESSIONS_REACHED
353 (0x161)
The maximum number of sessions has been reached.
ERROR_NETWORK_BUSY
54 (0x36)
The network is busy.
ERROR_PROC_NOT_FOUND
127 (0x7F)
The specified procedure could not be found.
ERROR_NEGATIVE_SEEK
131 (0x83)
An attempt was made to move the file pointer before the beginning of the file.
ERROR_SAME_DRIVE
143 (0x8F)
The system cannot join or substitute a drive to or for a directory on the same drive.
ERROR_PATH_BUSY
148 (0x94)
The path specified cannot be used at this time.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_TCBS
155 (0x9B)
Cannot create another thread.
ERROR_BAD_ARGUMENTS
160 (0xA0)
One or more arguments are not correct.
ERROR_ARENA_TRASHED
7 (0x7)
The storage control blocks were destroyed.
ERROR_MAX_THRDS_REACHED
164 (0xA4)
No more threads can be created in the system.
ERROR_META_EXPANSION_TOO_LONG
208 (0xD0)
The global filename characters, * or ?, are entered incorrectly or too many global filename characters are specified.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_MODULES
214 (0xD6)
Too many dynamic-link modules are attached to this program or dynamic-link module.
ERROR_MORE_DATA
234 (0xEA)
More data is available.
ERROR_EAS_DIDNT_FIT
275 (0x113)
The extended attributes did not fit in the buffer.
ERROR_NO_MORE_ITEMS
259 (0x103)
No more data is available.
ERROR_DISK_TOO_FRAGMENTED
302 (0x12E)
The volume is too fragmented to complete this operation.
ERROR_DUPLICATE_PRIVILEGES
311 (0x137)
Duplicate privileges were specified for the token.
ERROR_DEVICE_FEATURE_NOT_SUPPORTED
316 (0x13C)
The device does not support the command feature.
ERROR_INVALID_FUNCTION
1 (0x1)
Incorrect function.
ERROR_TOO_MANY_POSTS
298 (0x12A)
Too many posts were made to a semaphore.

[volchok]

and everyone can own their own universe in the form of this technology, we might see a world in which everybody spends just about their entire lives in such a machine, getting fed intravenously.

A world where everyone is connected to a machine...sounds like the matrix.
Maybe the matrix is the unavoidable future.

[Flannel Jesus]

Maybe the matrix is the desirable future, however much your instincts tell you otherwise.
There's always the possibility that your instincts are right, though, but let's not hastily throw out any possibilities.

[volchok]

Agreed.

[James S Saint]

"The Matrix" is not the future.
It is the present.
You have merely not seen how deep the rabbit holes goes... yet.

[Typist]

So I thought I'd educate myself a bit, and try to learn more about where virtual technology is today. This video seems a pretty good start.

[Typist]

Explanation of current Holodeck-style technology....

[Typist]

Dramatization of virtual reality video game...

[James S Saint]

As long as it's fun and easy, people will get hooked on it.
Death is no obstacle.

The deadly illusion is that they think that they have control over it and not it over them.

[Typist]

You could be sitting in a chair in front of a computer, reading some kinda boring thread about virtual reality, while munching on a bag of chips in your lap.

Or.....

You could be flying through the clouds.



If you watch the video, use your imagination to transform the experience from one of watching a video on a 3 foot square two dimensional screen, to a surround view and sound such as you'd get in a virtual reality room. Add interactivity so that you control where you fly in the scene.

How will your life change when your computer is upgraded to a room like this, and you have thousands of such programs to choose from?

[Typist]

Hmm... I appear to be doing a poor job of engaging readers in my favorite rant topic. Must try harder!

Let's consider how much time and effort we invest in negotiating with reality to get what we want.

MONEY: The pursuit of money consumes a huge amount of time. Although some of this money is needed for non-negotiable physical needs such as food, shelter and medical care, the majority of it is spent on tailoring our environment to suit our tastes. Not to get what we need, but to get what we want. We buy a $200,000 house, when a $5,000 trailer would keep us warm and dry, etc.

PEOPLE: We are continually negotiating with other people. I'm doing it right now. I want you to engage this thread, so I'm stumbling about trying to find some bait to put on the hook that you will judge to be acceptable. We both negotiate with people individually on an almost moment to moment basis, and negotiate with people in general, by selecting those who will provide the experiences we want.

These are just quick examples, designed to illustrate how much of our life is spent engaged in the process of getting what we want.

The point of this thread is to attempt to explore what happens as technology makes this process of getting what we want ever more efficient. This is the overall point of technology, right?

This process of using technology to more efficiently get what we want is underway at all times, and we are always moving incrementally forward. There won't be a day when this process finally happens, because it's always happening already.

The logical end result of this process would seem to be something like the Holodeck. That is, the very inefficient and highly time consuming process of continual negotiation is removed, and we just get what we want right now.

The human mind has been negotiating with reality for millions of years. That's it's main purpose, what it was designed for.

What happens to the human mind when we no longer really need to negotiate very much with reality, and can have what we want when we want it?

Once you have a Holodeck installed in your house, other than eating and going to the bathroom, why would you come out?

If this question seems too far fetched futuristic, then how much time do you spend in forums instead of doing whatever you used to do with that time? Why are you here, instead of out there in the real world?

[Typist]

Welcome To My Blog!!

To understand why the virtual reality revolution is important, we can set aside futuristic speculation for just a bit, and consider the impact of this technology today.

The primary virtual reality technology of today is TV and computing devices of various kinds. Typically this involves a 3-4 square foot flat screen, or much smaller screen in the case of mobile equipment.

Is it not amazing how compelling these relatively primitive devices are?

Consider television as example. There's fairly broad agreement that TV content generally stinks, and yet billions of people spend a few hours watching it every day, while complaining about how much it sucks.

The Internet uses similar display technology, adding a greater degree of interactivity. And we've gone completely ape shit crazy on this as well. Hundreds of millions of people sucked in to the Facebook universe, even though Facebook is a clunky piece of junk.

Mobile devices may be even more compelling, especially for the younger generations.

Returning now to futuristic speculation....

If we become this engaged by a 3 foot square two dimensional screen or smaller....

What's going to happen to us as the display technology expands to envelope us on all sides, holographic images are projected in to 3D space, and ever greater levels of interactivity are added?

Given the HUGE demand and the rapidly developing technology, it seems a near certainty that this world is coming. Dinosaurs like me will have moved on, and it will be your world. How can you not be interested?

[Typist]

Welcome back to my blog!

Maybe one has to be a dinosaur to get this? By dinosaur I mean, somebody old enough to recall a time when every square inch of our lives was not flooded with media. Back when I was a baby dinosaur in the 50s-60s, here's the media landscape I inhabited.

I lived in a mid sized city.

We had two and a half TV stations, the last one dependent on the weather. The TV news was on once or twice a day for a few minutes. If you missed it, you missed it, and you just had to wait for tomorrow. Nobody cared.

No cable anything. A couple of radio stations. One newspaper. A few dozen national magazines. And that was pretty much it.

If you wanted to talk on the phone, you had to go home, or drive around and find a phone booth. Eight track tapes we're futuristic cutting edge music technology.

Nobody but defense department scientists had heard of the Internet. You didn't have virtual friends, or friends in other places. Typing was for secretaries.

Almost everything and everybody was live, flesh and blood, here and now, face to face.

The vast majority of your life was spent NOT plugged in to media.

Perhaps it's not possible to understand how absolutely engaged we are by today's saturated media environment unless we have something to compare it too?

[Amorphos]

Great thread!

I am unsure if you can actually replicate reality 100%, not that it matters, its probably better if you at least can tell its not real. It would be difficult to simulate the sensation of touch, and connect that with the other sensory input. 3D glasses would probably hurt my eyes after a while, and we’ll probably find out that all that intense light radiation isn’t very good for the eyes with extensive use.

Secondly there’s an authenticity issue; if a celeb babe does what you want then she is not the same person ~ probably doesn’t matter though. Hmm, if the essential content of people personalities were in the program, such that they would act how they would in the real world, then it would be cool to try to chat up your fav star.

If we were not all such pussies, we’d probably find that real-reality offers far more than virtual reality.
oh wait, except virtual aliens, space and time travel etc, etc.
e.g. Do you really want women who just say yes and do it? isn’t it far better to win them over or have fun failing to.

What will rapists do? lol

The vast majority of your life was spent NOT plugged in to media.
Perhaps it's not possible to understand how absolutely engaged we are by today's saturated media environment unless we have something to compare it too?

yes, now we are all journalists
.