Legalize heroin

[_________]

If you can't take the time to actually read what people write, much less make an attempt at comprehension, there's no point discussing anything with you.

I'm not going to waste time dissecting your rambling statements.

You've lost the argument. Now you're sulking.

...really?

[Gamer]

Pretentious. Very.

Avoidance. Very.

Wanting to legalize drugs is logical. Wanting to take heroin is not.

In the very end, you should have a right to be illogical on your own behalf.

Just be ready to take lots of self-righteous shit and criticism from people on the way down the toilet.

That's the way it is. Regardless of what form the shit and criticism takes, it probably means the same thing: for some reason they give a shit about YOU, at their peril.

So I ask, sans pretense:

Can/will you get your hands on good heroin? If not, why not?

Are you familiar with odds of managing a heroin habit successfully?

Do you have any relationships you value? How do they feel about you taking heroin? If you don't care what they feel about it, why?

Are you depressed/bored/anxious/isolated? Is this really about self-medicating?

How might this get in the way of "what you really want in life?"

The inner voice that leads a very smart guy to "occasional opiate life plan," can be crisp and logical. It's not an original argument. It's eery to see it in black and white. I am only asking you the questions I asked myself for years while actually taking what you only dream about. My answers have been similar to yours. But there's only so much info I let myself access in myself. Foolish to think I could access it in you, a stranger, at the beginning of his bullshit.

PS: If it was legal and available at the corner store I would have taken a great deal more than i did and do. I would have set my controls to the heart of the sun. may the odds be ever in your favor.

[equal2u]

Quit the bs, Mo. This is what's really going on...

Relax, crackhead.

I am relaxed. You're the nervous one because I've touched a nerve. That happens when people get told a truth they dedicate their lives to denying.

[equal2u]

If you can't take the time to actually read what people write, much less make an attempt at comprehension, there's no point discussing anything with you.

I'm not going to waste time dissecting your rambling statements.

You've lost the argument. Now you're sulking.

...really?

Yes.

[equal2u]

Can/will you get your hands on good heroin? If not, why not?

I can't because I'm not a high level drug dealer and I don't work in healthcare with access to steal pharmaceuticals. By the time heroin hits the streets its adulterated with tons of shit.

Are you familiar with odds of managing a heroin habit successfully?

It's not about 'odds'. It's not gambling. If I use heroin responsibly the risks are very low.

Do you have any relationships you value? How do they feel about you taking heroin? If you don't care what they feel about it, why?

It's my life to live how I wish as an adult. If they object it's really none of their business.

Are you depressed/bored/anxious/isolated? Is this really about self-medicating?

It's about wanting to feel happy.

How might this get in the way of "what you really want in life?"

It is what I want in life.

The inner voice that leads a very smart guy to "occasional opiate life plan," can be crisp and logical. It's not an original argument. It's eery to see it in black and white. I am only asking you the questions I asked myself for years while actually taking what you only dream about. My answers have been similar to yours. But there's only so much info I let myself access in myself. Foolish to think I could access it in you, a stranger, at the beginning of his bullshit.

I don't know what you're rambling on about. Get over yourself.

PS: If it was legal and available at the corner store I would have taken a great deal more than i did and do. I would have set my controls to the heart of the sun. may the odds be ever in your favor.

If you want to use heroin recklessly and end up in the morgue that's up to you. It's not about odds it's about responsibility.

[_________]

...really?

Yes.

So to confirm, you're specifically refusing to read my post but criticizing it preemptively based on what you haven't in fact read and/or understood. This is the case, n'est-ce pas?

[equal2u]

This is what I read and understood:

if you're using small amounts in safe locations intelligently enough to not get the cops called on you, then you're probably ok to take them. If you make poor choices and wind up in jail, you're probably predisposed to reckless use such as may endanger yourself and others, and therefor probably would be better off without drugs.

[equal2u]

And this is how I responded to it.

And what about the drug dealers? They're taking a much greater risk to give you your drug taking lifestyle. They're the ones the cops focus on and who get the long prison sentences. They're providing you with a service, but you don't seem to give a shit about them. If a few of them end up getting sent to prison now and then there will always be new ones to take their place, you don't give a shit about the poor guys sitting in prison, as long as your weed and mushroom supply remains unaffected, how noble is that?

I really hope you get caught and end up in front of the most draconian judge in America, or wherever you're from. See what you think about your pro drug criminalization theories then.

[equal2u]

I respond to straightforward arguments not waffle. I'm not interested in trying to make sense of waffle and fiddling about.

[_________]

That's terribly convenient though. The two short bits you neglected ("I entertain the notion that the laws should remain" and "Note the emphasis, since the underlined is not "subscribe to the notion," "support the notion," or "applaud the notion.") happen to be relatively important to the interpretation of what you criticized, and your wish that I "get caught and end up in front of the most draconian judge in America, or wherever [I'm] from" in this light seems just a tad presumptuous, no? What I see is that not everyone agrees with you and this really pisses you off, ergo your misplaced vindictive comments and your two(?) bans.

[equal2u]

What I see is that not everyone agrees with you and this really pisses you off

You're right there. If everyone agreed with me we'd be living in utopia.

[_________]

Such is the stuff of every great dictatorship.

[von Rivers]

Equal2u,

I think your reasoning is shot up with error. There may be crack in your argument. You need to go back and needle your way through my post. If you can do that, I'll thank you my fiend.

[equal2u]

Equal2u,

I think your reasoning is shot up with error. There may be crack in your argument. You need to go back and needle your way through my post. If you can do that, I'll thank you my fiend.

Your drug puns are just about worth reading but your nonsensical ramblings are not. OH has already pointed out how your post is a load of crap, why would I waste my time doing something that's already done?

[equal2u]

Such is the stuff of every great dictatorship.

Whatever, are you for legalisation or not?

[_________]

Such is the stuff of every great dictatorship.

Whatever, are you for legalisation or not?

I'm still undecided.

[Moreno]

I could be liscensed, like driving.

Though really that seems more important with drugs like PCP and meth.

[Only_Humean]

More to the point, why would drug dealers have any economic incentive to make heroin available illegally if vastly cheaper, industry-quality drugs are available elsewhere?

Point 3 is subsidiary (a knock-on effect) of point 2 - regulation and industrialisation will drive the gangs out of business. I don't think that deflating the power of the gangs will open the way to regulation, unless you are of the opinion that the reason it remains illegal is pressure from drugs barons on the legislature.

Isn't it clear that business is more lucrative when it's unregulated, rather than regulated? If you intend any substantive regulations at all, (which cost), then there will be drug dealers offering a cheaper product. I don't think real, substantive regulation will drive drug gangs out of business, only partly because of this. And when you consider that if heroin is more freely available through legalization/regulation, more people will be likely to become drug dealers, to the addicts who are prevented by the regulations from getting it. They can sell it for profit.

This has already been covered, but it's a huge thread, I'll recap.

I don't think that legalising it will stop people getting their hands on illegal substances. The same happens now with legal pharmaceuticals - tramazepam, for instance. But there's no criminal infrastructure to support it. Some kid steals his mum's valium and makes a few bucks off the tablets - there's no international smuggling, no bribery of officials, no bodyguards to pay off, the goods are pharmaceutical quality. It's not interesting for drugs gangs to illegally produce it, because they'd get no markup on it. Heroin is dozens of times more expensive and lower-quality as an illegal drug than if it were produced industrially... and the cost also leads to much more petty/street crime by addicts.

Drugs gangs aren't dealers, in any significant way - while the dealers are undesirable, they're very small fry. The policing cost comes from the organised crime families behind them, who fund other criminal activities with the drugs money they obtain. It wasn't the barmen during prohibition that were the problem, it was the mafia who financed gunrunning, protection rackets and so forth.

Why would addicts be prevented by regulations from getting it? The point of the regulations isn't to get new users hooked!

I meant that point 2 falls back on point 3 because the point of point two just is either the point of point 3, or of point 1. There's no reason for point 2 unless you have as your goal point 3 or point 1.

Ah, well, I don't want to take heroin, nor do I propose it solely to remove drugs gangs. I just think that given that people take heroin, there are policies that minimise the associated societal problems and ones that maximise them, and that the current situation does not minimise them.

Right, this was the point that I made, before I argued that legalization/regulation would either not hinder drug gangs, or else make heroin as freely available as alcohol is today (as in your example), which would hinder drug gangs. Because it seems to me that if alcohol required a prescription, or something like that, you would absolutely have people bootlegging it. And I'm not sure if you are endorsing the latter point (that heroin be as freely available as alcohol) as something that would be good, or not. Care to clarify?

In Scandinavia alcohol is controlled (again, see earlier in the thread) - there is some limited bootlegging, but the majority of people simply don't bother. The Russian mafia don't get rich smuggling vast quantities of vodka over the border, because most people aren't interested in the risk when it's available legally and conveniently in the shops. Plus, the profits on its sale go to the government rather than criminals (insert satirical libertarian comment here) and is available for policing, healthcare, infrastructure and so forth.

Of course, it may be that as soon as heroin becomes available, 80% of the population goes out and gets addicted. I don't think that would happen, and in my experience most of the people who really want to do heroin aren't deterred by its illegality - it seems to be a pretty minor consideration. I don't know anyone who's quit due to a police caution. There would have to be public education on the risks, and some sort of monitoring system - just like there's a risk with alcohol that people get drunk and go out and drive. But to be clear, I don't think that heroin being available through legal means is necessarily a good thing in itself, but that it would minimise the overall societal consequences of heroin use (that's going on despite it being illegal).

[Only_Humean]

Also, as a reminder to posters in this thread, discussion is to proceed civilly here. Warnings have been issued, and will continue to be if necessary.

[equal2u]

Such is the stuff of every great dictatorship.

Whatever, are you for legalisation or not?

I'm still undecided.

Getting arrested might help you make up your mind.

[Slow John]

“Four other men have gone out and have not returned,” said Fowler. “You know that, of course. We want you to return. We don’t want you going off on any heroic rescue expedition. The main thing, the only thing, is that you come back, that you prove man can live in a Jovian form. Go to the first survey stake, no farther, then come back. Don’t take any chances. Don’t investigate anything. Just come back.”
Allen nodded. “I understand all that.”

– From Clifford Simak, Desertion

Allen never came back. Eventually, Fowler went out with his dog, believing he would be different and have the fortitude and self-possession to come back. The story shows his psychology in Jovian form, and how impossible it is to come back to the ship. He goes on to live a Jovian life, one assumes, though we're never told what lies beyond the hills, the force that beckons him. The story ends.

Heroin is like this.

You will not come back. But to deny you the right to try doesn't make for a very good story.

Oh, and it's clear you don't value your relationships from your above post, or you have had bad luck. Sorry to hear that. Smart guy like you, somebody should love you. Heroin makes you even less lovable, not that it matters.

[equal2u]

Plenty of people use heroin responsibly. Governments don't like to accept it but it's true. People who buy heroin illegally off the street and then inject it directly into their veins, not knowing the strength of the heroin or what it's cut with are reckless. People reckless enough to do that in the first place are likely to end up addicted through their recklessness.

Responsible heroin use is a phenomenon that is widely unrecognised by society, but it really isn't that amazing. Human society is unbalanced with heroin addicts at one end and non user pro criminalization zealots at the other. If society becomes balanced both these two unhealthy extremes can be almost eliminated and we can have a happier, healthier, saner population, all choosing for themselves whether or not to enjoy responsible heroin use within their lives.

[_________]

Getting arrested might help you make up your mind.

Why? Losing my license for consistently driving way too fast didn't convince me that speed limits should be unconditionally revoked.

Responsible heroin use is a phenomenon that is widely unrecognised by society, but it really isn't that amazing. Human society is unbalanced with heroin addicts at one end and non user pro criminalization zealots at the other. If society becomes balanced both these two unhealthy extremes can be almost eliminated and we can have a happier, healthier, saner population, all choosing for themselves whether or not to enjoy responsible heroin use within their lives.

And I suppose we're to just take your word for it?

[von Rivers]

Only_Humean,

Your claim is that you want heroin to be like a pharmaceutical drug. --It’s the lesser evil, and would hurt drug gangs.

1. If not anyone who wants heroin can easily get heroin, there will be a need for drug gangs. There’s not really a criminal infrastructure around beer. Anyone can get it. You can go buy it at the store, or have an older stranger buy it. Are you saying you want heroin to be bought at the store? Please clarify. Maybe drug gangs will become lesser, but only to the extent that the drug is actually easier to get without them.
2. Making it like a prescription makes it easier to get. (Not 80%, as you think... but even a tad more). Some number of people are deterred from even trying to get it. And some number of people can’t even if they try---like equal2u. That’s a good thing, right?
3. Limiting it like a pharmaceutical drug is impractical and unenforceable. Heroin is not medication, like a doctor prescribes. There’s no criteria for who needs it and who doesn’t. Nobody needs it. You’re always healthier and better off without it. Having someone like a doctor hand it out is contrary to medicine. And trying to limit it only to addicts is either impossible, or keeps the need for a drug war the same as it is now, since most aren’t born addicts.
4. An individual’s heroin addiction harms others, for any society that has a public health/welfare system. The goal is not to have a law letting people further an addiction that harms others. That means that the law would violate either the Harm Principle, or the utilitarian one, whichever you think laws are justified under. You may bring up cigarettes, and say: “what gives huh”? You would be making the perfect the enemy of the good.

[Slow John]

Plenty of people use heroin responsibly. Governments don't like to accept it but it's true.

Why do you think this? Where are you getting your info?

People who buy heroin illegally off the street and then inject it directly into their veins, not knowing the strength of the heroin or what it's cut with are reckless.

This is actually not true, having spent plenty of time in that world. If you have a regular source and take with others from a same batch, you can easily tell if what you're getting is pure. You are making a neophyte assumption. It sounds good in theory but it's just not true. Anyone who takes drugs regularly knows that the "bad product" argument isn't really true as the norm. Heroin on the streets can be EXTREMELY pure, and any sophisticated user, even dumb ones, have a process for testing the purity before taking a full dose. I know this from direct experience and basic research.

People reckless enough to do that in the first place are likely to end up addicted through their recklessness.

Actually it's due to the heroin and its mechanisms.

Responsible heroin use is a phenomenon that is widely unrecognised by society, but it really isn't that amazing.

Really? How do you know this?

Human society is unbalanced with heroin addicts at one end and non user pro criminalization zealots at the other.

And this is because everybody is reckless, because it's illegal, and if it was legal they'd be less reckless? I disagree, because during the time I was taking heroin it was very pure and whether it was legal would have made absolutely no difference. It's really a non-issue. This is the case for just about all the people I know who were/are addicted to heroin, and there are lots. I could see why you'd think this though, being on the outside. You neither have the direct experience or research to back up any of your hypotheses.

If society becomes balanced both these two unhealthy extremes can be almost eliminated and we can have a happier, healthier, saner population, all choosing for themselves whether or not to enjoy responsible heroin use within their lives.

Heroin is heroin. I don't think you understand what heroin is and what it does, or what it does long term, regardless of how responsible you think you are. I would suggest you continue to research the effects and talk to people who actually used it before you make any decisions to use it, legal or otherwise.