Rationality is overrated

I think what Gib is describing, is similar to how someone can screw with you if you are too civilized, and you wont fight back or punish them as much as if you were not civilized. But we switch the word civilized with the word rational. Also being really rational can be similar to being naive, if you project it and think that everyone else and the world is rational. Then suddenly irrational stuff pops up and you don’t expect it so you’re less prepared. “Rational” is a form of ideals. It’s a big ideal like wisdom. But it is christianized or derived from christian philosophy in some cases, so that peace seems rational, and war seems irrational. That’s just one example. I think there is such a thing as pure rationality, which is not a form of morality or what have you, but, that is not common rationality.

When I think of reason, I think of just anyone saying anything to support anything they say and in that simply giving “a reason”.

When I think of rationality, I think of a calculated, informed choice being made through an analyzation of the issue at hand, and the conclusion about the action to be taken as one which is a result of that analysation combined with a proper logical methodology.

If you ask, “why’d you rob that liquor store?” and I reply, “Because I wanted to.”, Then I’m being reasonable.

If you ask, “why did you choose this tv instead of the other”, I might say, “because it had more hdmi ports, and the cost was lower and the picture quality was higher than all of the other options in front of me when I analyzed the issue in question”, then I"m being rational.

Personally, I let my rationality battle my emotions and desires, and dominate them, and manipulate them, and control them. I figure it is the best choice. Your definition of rationality looks like it is sort of deviating away from the dictionaries.

It could be dan. I just think that a guy can be reasonable but not rational. There’s a distinct line between them.

But you’re right on with the old philosophical question, “should reason be the slave of passion, or vice versa?” I think it’s a matter of preference. Some people like to scream and shout, and other people like to calculate the proper answer to the problem. I think when it comes to people who are able to calculate instead of scream and shout, that there’s a risk that they may use this ability to their advantage at the expense of others.

I think pleasure is far more over-rated than rationality. Who gives a poo about rationality? Who ponders it? But when it comes to pleasures, people need their fix, usually. Over-rating things is usually better than under-rating them, though. If I lived in a society where people wanted to be entirely reasonable, I think that would have more good than bad consequences.

biblehub.com/jeremiah/17-9.htm

I dislike how this sounds, but emotionalism has its evils. Then there is the phenom of love.
I don’t know, would you rather be a chimp or a robot? We have poor options at times.

To me these are two very different questions. Nearly everyone gives a poo about rationality. Note this does not mean they are good at being rational. But everyone argues, supports their arguments or Thinks they do, makes logic sounds (‘and that’s why’ ‘which clearly leads to’ ‘you can tell because’), and explains pretty much Everything from why Nike is better than Addidas, to why there is or isn’t a God, to every political conclusion possible, to why they should get to stay up late to…I mean Everything. Because, because, because of all of the wonderful things he does. They argue and convince themselves of all sorts of things too. There’s that confused skeptical expression you can see on spouses’, children’s parent’s, employers’, employee’s, voters’, potential buyers’ faces while they are under the waterfall of reasoning other people are aiming at them. Often they don’t know why it is bullshit, but they know bullshit when they hear it. Or they don’t and get suckered in.

Who ponders rationality? Now that is a small Group.

I have more in common with a chimp. And I mean that as a compliment to me.

Are you sure? How much do they care about it on the 1 to 10 ?

Clearly, it has enough value to be used as a mechanism for constructing arguments. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have claimed that “Rationality IS overrated”.
That assertion was uttered as a fact, and apparently we should act accordingly. In other words, his case amounts to the following: Let’s be rational because rationality is overrated.

In the sense that they want to sound like their decisions, politics, tastes, and more are right and generally that other people are wrong, 10. Again, I am not saying they are good at it.

Well, that what assertions are like.

No, that’s not what he is saying. Please actually read his OP and respond to that or find Another thread that you are interested enough in to read well. If you disagree with some of the Points he makes in the post, then explain what you Think is incorrect and why - and with quotes, since you seem to be responding to some other post.

And Volchok you were clearly wrong in your first post, since he makes statements that make very clear he is not ruling out rationality. Instead of admitting that you were wrong, you now try Another angle.

If Vol didn’t read the OP I will be depressed.

Well I hate to depress you but…

In the OP…

Volchok’s response

he seems to Think that since Gib is making assertions and arguments -iow being rational- the OP is nonsense. But Gib makes it clear he is talking about certain situations, and he makes this clear even Before the utterly clear part I quoted above.

If the thread was titled ‘Rationality is worthless’ and then went on to argue that idea, then Volchok’s response would make sense.

Edit: ladyjane has done what Volchok is responding to, however, but not Gib.

Alright. I’ll try to survive despite that.
edit: I also read the rest of the OP later after my first response.

I have faith in you.

Yikes! 22 hits already. I must have caused a stir. :laughing:

Well, let’s begin…

Are you accusing me of being irrational?

There’s nothing childish about how the human brain naturally works. You think it’s all just a big logic-chopping, reason-using, rationality-computing bundle of nerves? There’s dreams, there’s emotions, there’s intuition, there’s tastes and persuasions, there’s even illogical thinking sometimes–they’re all in their too, sharing the same room as the rational parts. If you’re ashamed that this makes you human–if you think it’s childish–then by all means, try your best to suppress those parts of yourself.

Yeah, v, remember I called you an idiot?

Something like that, but I wouldn’t say one should stop listening in a rational way, but that one should stop cooperating–make no mistake, the decision to put on one’s rationality cap is a decision–it’s a decision that one is going to cooperate as a listener with the speaker. Sometimes I do this with trolls–when I start to sense they are trolling, I don’t exactly stop paying attention to the reasoning in what their saying, but I switch gears and stop intending to respond back in an equally rational way. I sometime commit logical fallacies (knowingly) but in subtle enough ways that the troll won’t notice, or I’ll purposely misinterpret him–sometime enough so such that I can get his juices riled.

But then there’s advertisers whom I can’t do this with. In those cases, it’s not really about being irrational, but not being a slave to their reasoning. I mean, if you take a minute out and try to sense other parts of your mind, parts that might be telling you “no, this is wrong” even though you can’t quite figure out why, then all of a sudden, their reasoning has something to contend with in your mind, and you suddenly gain a certain measure of freedom. I find it’s better to make decisions while in that state of mind–a freely thinking state–rather than in the state the advertiser (or politician, or preacher, etc.) is trying to put you in.

So to answer your question: it’s when you bring together all parts of your mind–reason, intuition, emotion, selfish desires, lessons and teachings from those you trust, the advice of others you trust–that you know when to apply reason and when not. If you believe that you’re just a crazy or stupid moron if you don’t always think rationally, then you’ll never know when not to use it, or when to use it for that matter.

Yeeaaah…and?

Right, because if it can be used to construct arguments, then clearly it’s always underrated.

How do you know how I meant it?

Not quite, vol. It’s more like: Let’s not always be rational (as you’re clearly exemplifying), because rationality is overrated.

Anyway, to everyone else: what it comes down to is this: are you slave to rationality or is it a slave to you? Either way, rationality is here to stay–we’re not getting rid of it–in the first case, you are a tool to rationality, in the second, it is your tool.

As long as results can be achieved then all that’s useful. Often, though, the starting point is on shaky ground already and not conducive to a rational relationship with understanding. I think the realm of human experiences has more than a few things to contribute to the indescribable and in these cases rationality loses its instrumentality. One might be labeled as loony due to his particular ascertained premise based on his own feelings – < these, seeming special and worth mentioning, can be misconstrued in the rational arena. Probably these unique experiences are best kept to themselves lest they be cast into the chasm of senselessness. Yet I suppose there are those who have the gift to explain even that which doesn’t conform to the usual type or expected pattern of rational and logical scrutiny. They kinda talk around it with a sense of reasonable style. I guess it’s like art in a way.

I believe philosophy is an art. Reason and rationality are like a paint brush. Now, some might build philosophies like drawing stick men–which is just crap quality–and then there are others who will take better care and time with reason and rationality and give us masterpieces. Building philosophies is also like programming. When you’re programming a computer, you really do have to use reason and rationality carefully, but the fact of the matter is, you can program a computer with whatever the hell you want. The same is true in philosophy–though you do have to take care to use reason and rationality carefully, at the end of the day you can create whatever philosophy you want–and download it onto anyone’s brain that you want (so long as you get him to read your stuff).

Some of this will be useful, some not. I’m more pragmatic about the effects of philosophies than most it seems, but it can be extremely hard to predict what those effects might be even when you feel certain your philosophy is the right one.

Agreed, for if you must comply with all the so called rational rules all the time, you are destined to a life of emotional servitude. But our culture teaches that it’s naughty to disobey, that you shouldn’t do anything against the rules. The important thing is to determine for yourself which rules work, and are necessary to preserve order in our culture and which can be broken without harm to yourself or others. There is no percentage in rebelling just for the sake of rebelling, but there are great rewards in being your own person and living your life according to your own standards.

Virtually all new ideas which have resulted in change in our society were at one time scorned, and many illegal as well. All progress involves flying in the face of the ostensible rationality of old rules that no longer apply. People ridiculed the Edisons, Henry Fords, Einsteins, and Wright brothers until they were successful. You’ll meet with contempt too as you begin to resist meaningless policies.

I can always count on you for condescension. It’s not that you could be wrong, it’s that others are trying a different angle. lol
There is no angle here, new or old. What I’m saying now is what I said before which is:

If rationality is overrated, then there are moments where we shouldn’t use it (according to the op). Not using rationality because one thinks rationality is overrated is an instance of rational behavior. So in essence, one is saying that rationality is overrated after reaching that conclusion through rational thought and proposing a rational conduct as a solution.