Rationality is overrated

Some people have put different meanings on words than others.
Gib’s “Rationality” needs to be set aside sometimes, where as Vol’s “Rationality” means different.

If that’s the only way that one can put aside rationality, then I feel sorry for them.

There are millions of people out there who will listen to a TV ad telling them all sorts of rational reasons why they should buy this or that product yet those people will completely ignore those reasons without feeling compelled to come up with counter-reasons. They just don’t listen because they don’t feel like it.

Anyone who has to read my OP before they can do something like that is hopeless.

Well if you one day discover that it is more rational to be irrational, then by all means, be irrational.

I agree with this type of response. IOW I Think it is a good part of a repetoire of responses, but I would go even further. If we take rationality as trying to reason one’s way to a conclusion or choice using logical steps, I Think this is overrated and that there are situations where it is better to go with one’s intuition. Especially if one’s intuition has been fairly effective in the relevent area. It can be anything from choosing a new employee - between various candidates, to what actions to take in certain situations, especially ones where there is not so much time. It can decisions surrounding rationality - like when to stop reasoning or when to stop acquiring more information. There is a vast range of decisions/conclusions where there are so many variables it is hubris to Think that rationality is the best approach. There is a reason we evolved to have emotions and intuitions and some things are much better dealt with by these faculties. Which dog to choose as a pet - from the litter. How to approach speaking to your family. How to open your novel. How to counsel and specific bulimic person.

One can try to approach these situations with all sorts of reasoning and logic, and rationality may be able to contribute but in the end the people who are good at making these kinds of decisions will be using some to a lot of intuition.

It’s neurotic and it’s like tying one hand behind your back because the left hand is a bad hand to Always use rationality.

I like to say that the part rationality has is a functional purpose only and in no way can bring us to the experience of whatever reality is. Sometimes we rationalize ourselves away from something that is trying to break out of restrictions of rationality itself.

I’ll see your point and raise you one even better . I think sometimes, one ought to follow one’s intuition even though that intuition may be wrong. Off the top of my head, I can think of a scenario in which I feel strongly, intuitively, that if I go out for a while, something wonderful will happen to me. Now I go out, spend a couple hours at the mall, nothing happens, and I come home. Maybe my unconscious just made that up–made me believe that I “knew” something wonderful was going to happen if I got out of the house–because the real reason I needed to get out of the house was because there was some kind of tension, some resentment or anger with a family member, but since I didn’t want to admit this to myself, my unconscious gave me another (false) reason to get out of the house.

I think this happens sometimes and it is a testament to the fact that the unconscious knows what it’s doing even if it seems irrational to us from the point of view of our conscious mind. The unconscious pulls our strings and it doesn’t always “speak” to us in a straight forward, direct manner, but it knows what it’s doing. This is not to say it can never be wrong, but that it deserve more credit than we often give it, and furthermore that we can sometimes do a lot of damage to ourselves by fighting against certain unconscious or intuitive impulses or “feelings” just because we can’t see any rationality behind them.

I agree in an objective context. But as you probably know, I’m a subjectivist. To me, whatever the hell it is you rationalize, that is reality for you–the catch being that you can make up whatever reality you want for yourself.

Sure thing. That’s just it. No one knows what is good in the context of a reality that relates to everything. Even the knowledge of the ‘reality’ that people use to try and maintain a sane and rational way of life is incomplete and is limited but all right for basic predictability and communication. Anyway, we only know what’s good for us. A person’s abilities are based on that. Nothing wrong with it. If it were not the case, there would be something wrong with you. But rationality in the context of all people brings right and wrong into operation. As long as we are caught up in opposites we will always be choosy and vacillate.

Thrilled!

Wonderful example. There is also training the intuition. It is going to be wrong sometimes. So you listen once and it is wrong and then set up the most anal rational Schedule possible for the rest of your Life. Or, over time, as you respect this facility, it does work fairly effectively.

A kind of parallel example to yours is the choice of romantic partner. You may make what turns out to be the wrong choice for the rest of your Life, but it may very well have been the perfect choice to learn whatever you needed to learn then.

Yes, and I Think it will do whatever it has to do including make us sick to get our attention.

All great Points.

Here’s an excellent 13 minute interview with Dan Sperber called The Enigma of Reason. He argues in it that finding the truth is that last thing reason evolved for.

shahspace.com/enigma_of_reason.mp3

Rationality is not overrated. It is more underrated than overrated. Perhaps it was overrated in the past (e.g. during the Age of Enlightenment), but currently it is not overrated. In times where everything has to be femine, feministic, consumeristic, “politically correct”, emotional … and so on and so forth …, there is no or at least not enough room for rationality.

So you gonna try to be rational with these guys? Good luck!

Who are “these guys”?

The feministas, consumerists, PC-guys, emotional people… all those things you mentioned.

if rationality is over-rated, how come you tried so hard to bind your entire thesis of its over-rated nature with more rationality?

Because overrated doesn’t mean completely useless.

So, then, it’s under-rated at the same time as being over-rated?

No, it’s very simple. Here’s a spectrum:

← Completely useless … overrated … just right … underrated →

My original claim was that rationality is over here:

← Completely useless … overrated … just right … underrated →
…[b]^^[1]

Then you said: so it’s over here?

← Completely useless … overrated … just right … underrated →
…[b]^^[2]

Then I said: Uh… no, it’s over here:

← Completely useless … overrated … just right … underrated →
…[b]^^[3]

Then you said: so it’s over here?

← Completely useless … overrated … just right … underrated →
…[b]^^[4]

Then I said:

1. /b ↩︎

2. /b ↩︎

3. /b ↩︎

4. /b ↩︎

Mostly, I am analyzing them, and analyzing has to do with rationality.

Oh yeah, definitely use rationality there (but also, make room for instinct, intuition).

What I’m talking about in this thread is strategies for engaging with people when they have in mind to exploit your commitment to rationality. ← In those cases, I’m arguing, it may be to your advantage to use different approaches to that of rationalizing (for example, trolling… have you ever tried to be rational with a troll?.. have you ever tried to troll a troll?.. which works better?)

Think for example of some of the junk mail you get sometimes: MAKE $10,000 IN A WEEK!!! ← Don’t you just hit delete on those? But is that the most rational thing to do? I mean, rationally, there will be a non-zero chance that they’re right, that you could make $10,000 in a week. Isn’t the most rational course of action to at least investigate the offer? See if it’s real or not?

Except that’s impossible since they are mutually exclusive. Unless you redefine the concept of irrationality such that it can be made compatible with rationality.