Unity rally in Paris

zinnat · January 17, 2015, 4:26pm

Okay. That is fine.

with love,
sanjay

zinnat · January 17, 2015, 5:55pm

But, it seems to me that all so called flag bearers of personal liberties, who took very high moral ground (in their opinion) in various threads for supporting all nonsense calling that harmless personal choice, do not have any answer why France banned burkas and why no liberal raised his voice against that!

Blind liberals do not realize that but the fact of the matter is that they never support personal liberty in reality. What they actually like to stand for is liberal lifestyle, which is not a personal liberty per se. Both things can be entirely different in some cases, which is evident from the example of France banning burkas.

with love,
sanjay

Orbie · January 17, 2015, 6:17pm

Sanjay, I think the answer could be the fact, that the Burka issue was used, advertently or not as a symbol.A semblence of resistance to the problem of values. it became to focal point to all the differing ideas floating out there. A symbol can be a
seemingly trite representation, to one poster referring as the opening of deeper concerns, of which not all are appreciative,nor understanding of.

James_S_Saint · January 17, 2015, 6:21pm

No established government or media organization does anything for sake of individual anything. Every law and incentive is a strategic move in a political chess game with influences across the world.

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 7:12pm

Arminius:

Jakob:

No, the solution is not to continue placating Merkel. The solution is forcing her to finally take the responsibility of a European leader.

I agree.

Are you shocked ( ) ?

Jakob:

I suppose your idea of a better relationship is to continue begging and kneeling to Germany. If so you understand even less of Prussian ethics than I do, as I at least do not condone simply giving away your national culture because another country is richer.

You suppose wrongly. And you have no idea of Prussian ethics. And note: Merkel is not a Prussian!

Jakob:

I at least do not condone simply giving away your national culture because another country is richer.

I do not know what you mean by that. Is it - again a part of your agitation?

Jakob:

Surely, Hollande is a weakling, a worthless political leader. The unity rally had of course nothing to do with any heads of state. The power of it was its particular, not its general character as ‘march for freedom of expression’. Such marches, as held in countries like Germany or Holland, are invariably pathetic. Here, it was not. That is the crucial difference.

That is not a crucial difference. Okay, vote for France, thus for more poverty, for more poverty to more people, for more poverty to all people.

The Germans did not want the Euro! And if there were no Euro, then everything / anything would not be alright, but the Euro-countries would have less problems.
The Germans did not want the Euro, so they are not guilty. The German government has nothing to do with the German people.
But most of the other countries which have the Euro wanted the Euro, also and especially France wanted the Euro.

It seems that you have also no idea of economics.

Well you are beginning to see that I was right all along. Retrace your steps, reread my posts and you will find that I only attack the German government and its economic policies.

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 7:12pm

That is a joke to you?

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 7:15pm

A Shieldmaiden:

Diekon wrote:

A few important exceptions to freedom of speech… What about freedom of religion? That gives us the right to impose specific prohibitions on the minds of our children. A little tweaking won’t suffice, you need to butcher the right if you want to do something about that.

It is interesting you bring this up. It is not unreasonable to accept that the Vatican could turn America into a fascist state with the help of those who have loyalty to the Pope, not the people in their countries. The illegal immigration of millions of Mexicans and South Americans crossing the U.S. border provides a population easily manipulated by the teachings of the Vatican hierarchy. The Roman Catholic Church is enjoying a return to prominence and in coalition with other churches, could effortlessly perpetrate religious oppression. To be able to do this, the Vatican could use these millions of third world countries as a voting base to blindly follow the Pope and with the union of church and state, this would eventually result in widespread religious oppression.

You’ll have to face that many people actually consider religion a ‘harmless private matter’. It makes me laugh very hard, but it’s a cynical form of absurdity.

Arminius · January 17, 2015, 7:59pm

No. You are not right all along. You are always searching for scapegoats. That is wrong - and not only wrong, because that is dangerous too.

But the main problem of the EU is not the German government; the main problem of the EU is the EU itself. The EU is a dictatorship. Nobody is allowed to select the rulers of the EU. They and the global bankers give the instructions and orders to the members. Merkel did not say that (for example) the Greek must have the Euro. She tries to bind all countries of the Euro system and to extend the EU. Not only to you but also to me, this is the wrong politics, but who would do it in a different (perhaps: better) way than she does? She is not mainly responsible for the guidelines and principles. The EU and the bankers are mainly responsible for that. And if you now say that she is “lying in bed” with them, then I can tell you that the other national politicians of Europe are also “lying in bed” with them and do nothing else. The EU problem is not mainly a national problem, because the EU is not a nation but an empire.

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 10:01pm

Arminius:

But the main problem of the EU is not the German government; the main problem of the EU is the EU itself. The EU is a dictatorship. Nobody is allowed to select the rulers of the EU. They and the global bankers give the instructions and orders to the members. Merkel did not say that (for example) the Greek must have the Euro. She tries to bind all countries of the Euro system and to extend the EU. Not only to you but also to me, this is the wrong politics, but who would do it in a different (perhaps: better) way than she does? She is not mainly responsible for the guidelines and principles. The EU and the bankers are mainly responsible for that. And if you now say that she is “lying in bed” with them, then I can tell you that the other national politicians of Europe are also “lying in bed” with them and do nothing else. The EU problem is not mainly a national problem, because the EU is not a nation but an empire.

Yes, I agree with all of that. She is a manager of the status quo in the EU and I say she has to stop being that. She also has to stop allowing German newspapers to print false allegations against Russia concerning the plane crash in Ukraine. I respect her as a manager but I do not like that the head of Germany, which is the heart of Europe, is a manager who actively oversees how the nation generates products and capital but is passive versus how the EU decides to ‘frame’ this capital, abroad her focus is on austerity, which is what the EU wants. I do not know if it is possible for Germany to free itself from the control of the central bank of the EU, but they must be on the side of the nations that resist, like Italy an Greece. Yes Greece make a mistake in joining, but they did not deserve this. It was not the people whose duty it was to inform themselves about the financial consequences, but the government, which was fooled by Goldman Sachs, who have no problem admitting this. Our prime minister, Mark Rutte, is an absolute puppet, neuro-linguistically programmed and all.

Basically I want Germany to finally rise to its role as leader, which means accounting for all economies, and making hard decision about financial ties. And for this leadership Germany has requirement of the experience of France, which has for very long been a very successful state and once harbored the majority of Europe’s population. Germany is brand new, exists only since 1871 and has been in several major wars since, has been split up again and is whole now, but it is still a child-state, still driven by that Prussian will and is admirable but has now become feminine and passive and needs to be replaced with a more culturally active attitude, so that the rest of Europe isn’t turned into a machine. Germany has ‘won’ by industrial superiority again and should relax a bit now. And I am glad if the French are going to be the ones doing the work for a while. The two great nations of the continent are good at different things should be arm in arm in the upkeep of a properly cultural European collaboration.

AutSider · January 17, 2015, 10:38pm

If a “friend” punches me, then a knife in the throat awaits him. Or maybe, just maybe, you should respond verbally to verbal attacks and physically to physical ones. Responding physically to verbal attacks demonstrates that you: 1) Are letting your emotions overcome your reason, 2) That you have no argument, so you resort to force. If my mother was, literally, a prostitute, how could I honestly ban anybody from calling her that, just because I find it emotionally uncomfortable? Has truth lost all value in today’s society?

Also, don’t misrepresent the French side, they banned all face covering headgear for all people, not just burqas for Muslims - among other reasons it was stated that it prevents identification and is a security risk.

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 10:44pm

Atheris:

If a friend “says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him.”

If a “friend” punches me, then a knife in the throat awaits him. Or maybe, just maybe, you should respond verbally to verbal attacks and physically to physical ones. Responding physically to verbal attacks demonstrates that you: 1) Are letting your emotions overcome your reason, 2) That you have no argument, so you resort to force. If my mother was, literally, a prostitute, how could I honestly ban anybody from calling her that, just because I find it emotionally uncomfortable? Has truth lost all value in today’s society?

Also, don’t misrepresent the French side, they banned all face covering headgear for all people, not just burqas for Muslims - among other reasons it was stated that it prevents identification and is a security risk.

Yes, they are consistent. In most countries you are getting stopped by the police if you are wearing a face covering headgear that is non religious. The French have the nerve to enforce that same law with religion. They do not respect ‘freedom of religious expression’ to the point where it begins to make other people uncomfortable. It is ridiculous to a) demand of someone else that she cover her face in public and b) to expect other people to be fine with that situation. It is also ridiculous to walk in the streets as if you are going to rob a bank and expect others to be fine with that.

Arminius · January 17, 2015, 10:45pm

Jakob:

Arminius:

But the main problem of the EU is not the German government; the main problem of the EU is the EU itself. The EU is a dictatorship. Nobody is allowed to select the rulers of the EU. They and the global bankers give the instructions and orders to the members. Merkel did not say that (for example) the Greek must have the Euro. She tries to bind all countries of the Euro system and to extend the EU. Not only to you but also to me, this is the wrong politics, but who would do it in a different (perhaps: better) way than she does? She is not mainly responsible for the guidelines and principles. The EU and the bankers are mainly responsible for that. And if you now say that she is “lying in bed” with them, then I can tell you that the other national politicians of Europe are also “lying in bed” with them and do nothing else. The EU problem is not mainly a national problem, because the EU is not a nation but an empire.

Yes, I agree with all of that. She is a manager of the status quo in the EU and I say she has to stop being that. She also has to stop allowing German newspapers to print false allegations against Russia concerning the plane crash in Ukraine. I respect her as a manager but I do not like that the head of Germany, which is the heart of Europe, is a manager who actively oversees how the nation generates products and capital but is passive versus how the EU decides to ‘frame’ this capital, abroad her focus is on austerity, which is what the EU wants. I do not know if it is possible for Germany to free itself from the control of the central bank of the EU, but they must be on the side of the nations that resist, like Italy an Greece. Yes Greece make a mistake in joining, but they did not deserve this. It was not the people whose duty it was to inform themselves about the financial consequences, but the government, which was fooled by Goldman Sachs, who have no problem admitting this. Our prime minister, Mark Rutte, is an absolute puppet, neuro-linguistically programmed and all.

I agrree.

Germany exists as long as France - since the treaties of Verdun (843), Mersen (870), and Ribemont (880). You mean the national unity, Jakob. Okay. The national unity of Germany and of Italy happened at the same time. But again: The EU problem is not a national problem but a problem of the EU itself, an empire problem! Do you know that?

I disagree.

Okay, if it is possible. There is no alternative - except the end of the Euro system and probably even the end of the EU.

They are not going to do it, because they are not able to do it. It would be the wrong way. Believe me.

James_S_Saint · January 17, 2015, 10:48pm

They don’t allow face covering merely for sake of the surveillance cameras.
… pretty much the same for everything else they do (Godwannabes).

Lev_Muishkin · January 17, 2015, 10:55pm

Jakob:

Atheris:

If a friend “says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him.”

If a “friend” punches me, then a knife in the throat awaits him. Or maybe, just maybe, you should respond verbally to verbal attacks and physically to physical ones. Responding physically to verbal attacks demonstrates that you: 1) Are letting your emotions overcome your reason, 2) That you have no argument, so you resort to force. If my mother was, literally, a prostitute, how could I honestly ban anybody from calling her that, just because I find it emotionally uncomfortable? Has truth lost all value in today’s society?

Also, don’t misrepresent the French side, they banned all face covering headgear for all people, not just burqas for Muslims - among other reasons it was stated that it prevents identification and is a security risk.

Yes, they are consistent. In most countries you are getting stopped by the police if you are wearing a face covering headgear that is non religious. The French have the nerve to enforce that same law with religion. They do not respect ‘freedom of religious expression’ to the point where it begins to make other people uncomfortable. It is ridiculous to a) demand of someone else that she cover her face in public and b) to expect other people to be fine with that situation. It is also ridiculous to walk in the streets as if you are going to rob a bank and expect others to be fine with that.

Personally I think what France has done in the matter of Burkhas is wrong.
I understand why they have done it though. It not about making uncomfortable people happy. It is also about allowing women to be free of male oppression. By and large, generation by generation women are oppressed by Islam in this way, and such behaviour is not compatible with French notions of liberty. By enacting this law it is felt that women are more able to integrate with ordinary French society. There is no doubt that wearing a face covering is not compatible with friendly communication.
However, I find it hard to accept that a nation can take upon itself the power to enforce a dress code!
So rather than banning the Burkha, it would make more sense to make illegal a man enforcing a woman to wear one. This would at least give a woman a legal right to leave the fucking anti-human thing at home. It is is REALLY about empowering a woman then that would be a more suitable law to enforce.

Jakob · January 17, 2015, 11:18pm

If these are the two alternatives, we agree. There is no future for the EU without a Germany that is concerned with the whole union, and that concern concerns the enormous tension that is always present in the German will. It is merciless in its strength, and now that Germany has all these allies around it united in a same economic framework, it is in its own interest to - either drop the Union, or make the union more flexible, so that capital circulates more naturally and the economies come back to their own healths. If this works, Europe can become a ‘body’ with multiple organs, all producing different requirements to that body, which has the capacity for great wholesomeness.

I think we are speaking about different types of work. This goes into what Lev says. The state has a prerogative to be somewhat culturally selective. This is because culture is so narrowly tied to morality, which supposedly lies embedded in the legislature, which effectively forms the state. I think the banning of this particular set of clothing is consistent with the spirit of the secular republic, but only because of the tremendous force behind the religion; it is impossible to account for whose will it really is, if the state does not take over certain protective responsibilities of the community and sets some objective limits to religious reach into the shaping of a citizen.

Uccisore · January 17, 2015, 11:31pm

I think one of my clashes with the attitude taken in this thread is that I am skeptical of things like “The French Will” and “The German Spirit” having much casual influence anymore. My take on the Western world is that the internet, mass communication, and multi-culturalism has turned it into an non-cultural mass of selfish individuals blown from one fad to the next. I don’t know that you can rely on France to do distinctly French things, or the UK to do distinctly British things. I could be way off and too pessimistic.

Arminius · January 17, 2015, 11:38pm

Yes, that are the two alternatives.

Yes. The internet, mass communication, multi-culturalism, feminism, and other isms are the current means or tools of control and - of course - the accompanying symptoms of the current Occident.

Jakob · January 18, 2015, 12:44am

But this would not account for the different things that are happening and being one in the different countries. If all was one goo of Ipad schooled idiots, then there would be no difference between the nations performances. Something is implicit in what a people is, and what I find so comforting is that where it has disappeared completely in my own country, in France it has not disappeared. That, to me, is already ‘proof’ of a kind of ‘spirit’ - because I can see the absolute absence of it. I doubt that as a relatively happy seeming American would be able to feel the cultural weakness a small country absorbed in the EU represents. I think only an American homeless person can identify with the fate of Holland after the EU took hold. Literally nothing with a bit of authority remained the same, everything became bullshit. And we adapted, but a large segment of the population will forever be estranged in totality from the EU counsel. Maybe this is the great Marxist Irony, also known as cognitive dissonance. Well Arminius has fought well for the honor of Germany and this is the sort of spirit I wish to see, and why I like freedom of expression and freedom of explicit contention. There is an idea born from the strife. This is the Greek way, isn’t it? Do we not always disagree to disagree?

Diekon · January 18, 2015, 1:07am

I think you are spot on Uccisore. Maybe the UK will still do dinstict britsih things, they have allways kept themselves somewhat apart from the rest of europe… But the rest? National identities and other ‘tribal’ ethnic stuff that is being dug up here and there, allways have an air of days gone bye about them. They are mere artifcacts of past, empty husks that are used to dress up from time to time, that aren’t lived anymore in day to day live. The internet is way more influencial than any of that. Jacob is flying high and loose with his associations.

No it isn’t. I’ve seen the effects of ‘western culture’ in Belgium, France and the Netherlands. I’m not so sure it’s all that much better than those despicabe religions that are being forced on children.

You think religion being a private matter is a cynical form of absurdity? Tell me, what are you going to do with freedom of religion and the rather large population of muslims in Europe. What is your solution?

Diekon · January 18, 2015, 1:14am

Jakob:

Uccisore:

I think one of my clashes with the attitude taken in this thread is that I am skeptical of things like “The French Will” and “The German Spirit” having much casual influence anymore. My take on the Western world is that the internet, mass communication, and multi-culturalism has turned it into an non-cultural mass of selfish individuals blown from one fad to the next. I don’t know that you can rely on France to do distinctly French things, or the UK to do distinctly British things. I could be way off and too pessimistic.

But this would not account for the different things that are happening and being one in the different countries. If all was one goo of Ipad schooled idiots, then there would be no difference between the nations performances. Something is implicit in what a people is, and what I find so comforting is that where it has disappeared completely in my own country, in France it has not disappeared. That, to me, is already ‘proof’ of a kind of ‘spirit’ - because I can see the absolute absence of it. I doubt that as a relatively happy seeming American would be able to feel the cultural weakness a small country absorbed in the EU represents. I think only an American homeless person can identify with the fate of Holland after the EU took hold. Literally nothing with a bit of authority remained the same, everything became bullshit. And we adapted, but a large segment of the population will forever be estranged in totality from the EU counsel. Maybe this is the great Marxist Irony, also known as cognitive dissonance. Well Arminius has fought well for the honor of Germany and this is the sort of spirit I wish to see, and why I like freedom of expression and freedom of explicit contention. There is an idea born from the strife. This is the Greek way, isn’t it? Do we not always disagree to disagree?

France is poo… There are only pockets of spirit left in rural areas and maybe some smaller cities that aren’t so much tied to the rest of the country.