Chicken or egg? What came first?

Up until mathematics, you words speak in terms of science. Once you bring mathematics into the picture, you are speaking philosophically (specifically, Pythagorean). What you are speaking of is the abstract, static infrastructure of the universe that I tried to explain earlier. It is very Pythagorean and Platonic. It is a description of an existence beyond time and space. Saying that before biology and chemistry, there was physics, makes sense in a temporal context, but to say before physics, there was mathematics only makes sense if “before” means “underlying”–underlying physics, there is mathematics. Things can still underlie, depend on, be rooted in, other things even in a static, abstract context devoid of time and space. To say that nothing comes before mathematics is to say that mathematics is the ultimate foundation of everything, and therefore nothing can be deeper.

While I appreciate your insight into the role that something as abstract as mathematics can play in the structure of the universe, I prefer to think of the ultimate foundations of the universe as experience (i.e. mind, consciousness, etc.), which itself finds many expressions in mathematics.

The singularity which the Big Bang was at the beginning of time is a physical representation of a universal consciousness. It is how that which the universe is aware of is represented when put in terms of a singular, homogeneous, uniform thing. That one thing, that one principle of existence, can be expressed in a multitude of complex forms–like white light being split into a rainbow of colors, or like the number 1 being split into fractions; going with the mathematical analogy, I like to think of the ultimate experience of the universe–the ultimate principle of existence of which it is ultimately aware–as signified by the number 1. That is the singularity of the Big Bang. The expansion of the universe after that is how the number 1 gets expressed in terms of fractions: 1/2 + 1/2… 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4… 1/8 + 1/8 + …

There is no time here. The number 1 just does equal 1/2 + 1/2, and that in turn just does equal 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4, and so on. You don’t need time for that equation to hold. I believe it is the same for experience–at least the kinds that are represented by the early universe and other non-human experiences. Physics is just a material representation of that put into spatial and temporal terms so as to be intelligible to the human mind.

Note that you can continue to expand the expressions of the number 1 into smaller and smaller fractions–you can go so far as to express it in terms of one over a million plus one over a million plus… but at a certain point, you no longer need to divide the fractions up into even even smaller fractions. Instead you can simply allow them to go through changes in value which preserve the overall equation. Take, for example, the equation: 1 = 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.4; the values of each term can be altered as follows: 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25. ← What we have here are the components of the system continuing to go through change without any expansion, so long as the change in one component is compensated for by a matching change in another component, such that the overall value of 1 is preserved. This might be said to represent a universe that continues to go through flux without the expansion (the compensating changes in each term representing the laws of physics). Of course, our universe is constantly expanding (they say it has never stopped, and in fact is accelerating); but the current inflationary model of the Big Bang states that the rate of expansion is not a constant–at some points in the universe’s history, it was inflating faster than at other rates. All I would say, in terms of this mathematical analogy, is that at some points in the history of the universe, a faster rate at which the terms divide up into smaller fractions is the best mathematical expression, but at other points in the history of the universe, a slower rate of dividing up of terms accompanied by a faster rate of term changes is the best mathematical expression.

Mathematics itself, however, is an expression of the deeper inner nature of things, which I believe to be experience (mind, consciousness, etc.), and as I said above, the singularity from which the Big Bang sprung (the number 1) is the ultimate awareness on the part of existence of what itself is (which happens to justify itself as existence), and this awareness can be expressed in multifaceted ways, eventually in terms of physics in the human way of experiencing things. Mind as we know it is multifaceted–it is not a singular experience, but a multitudinous conglomeration of qualities–colors, sounds, pains and pleasures, thoughts, emotions, dreams, memories, cold and hot, soft and hard, sweet, bitter, etc., etc., etc. Human conscious is capable of experiencing these things because this is a tiny fraction of what the universe has expressed itself as in its ongoing transmutation through the multivariate forms of its own identity. Time is only required in order to express this identity (partially) in terms of human subjective experience. Ultimately, though, time is not needed. The singular experience represented by the singularity at the moment of the BB just is the equivalent of its multivariet and heterogeneous forms of experience some of which are found in the human subjective experience. Time, if anything, is just one of the terms, not a medium in which the terms are expressed. The universe says to us: I am this… and I am also that, and that, and that–for these expression, when given to human empirical experience, must be put in temporal terms, but ultimately, it is the same as saying: I am 1… and I am also 1/2 + 1/2, and also 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4… ← time is irrelevant here. The only reason there seems to be a beginning to time is because there happens to be an ultimate, unified, singular way for the universe to express its awareness, a singular way beyond which there is no more simplified way. ← That’s what makes it special–not that it is the beginning of time (at least, not in human terms)–but that it is the ultimate expression of what the universe is.

Yet the universe for the overwhelming majority of its existence had no intelligent life in it at all as far as is known
As human beings only came along at the very end and after we become extinct the universe will carry on as before

Why do you assume you need intelligent life or human beings in order to have consciousness? And how do you recognize intelligent life when you see it?

You cannot return to any state if “you” are dead.

They do not complain about being dead, because there is no “them” in the body anymore. You cannot be “dead”, there is no you to experience non experience. The reason people fear death is because they don’t know what comes after, for all we know the next life could be worse or it could be better.

You cannot assume that there is no next life because you look at a body and see that it is dead…just as you cannot assume there is no sentience in someone because you look at their brain and cannot see their thoughts. How did you know the consciousness stream did not continue elsewhere? You already know your consciousness stream generated at your birth for no apparent cause or reason. You are using cheap empirical methods to debate consciousness and sentience discussions which is rather laughable.

That is a coping mechanism to help me get to the end of this life so up until then it is true
If after that it turns out I have been entirely wrong I will accept this with zero reservation
Though right now I have no desire to start thinking about something I have no control over
I will wait and see and take it a day at a time while patiently waiting for death to take me
Yes I am going to die but that is as far as my knowledge extends right now so I accept that

Why are there so many old people, just waiting to die, at ILP? :confused:

We have control over our life, or at least we have the illusion of control. When I tell you to not eat paper, you have the choice to not eat paper. The universe is helping you, through me, to programmed in the right way, to make the right choices. So the universe is telling us (through me, I am it’s Body and Holy Vessel) that you should make the right choice, because choices may affect the outcome of the afterlife. And the right choice is, to insist that Science do more serious research on consciousness and the afterlife. And in order for science to do that, the first step is to upgrade everyone’s brains.

That is all very well but what I am specifically interested in is getting to the end of this life
You want to upgrade your brain then go ahead and do it but that has nothing to do with me
I am just waiting to die and passing the time till death finally decides to come and take me

Well then go to a cold dark place and wait, why bother with activity?

insert *we welcome our alien overlords we welcome the smoozesummoner devoured> trope

I need to keep myself occupied as doing nothing is out of the question
I do not fancy just staring at empty walls for the next thirty odd years
Because if that is all I shall be doing then I might as well die right now

Didn’t you know that death is a contrarian? Death may just decide to leave you alone until that moment when you see something worthwhile about living. Then Death will take you. And take care not to try to fool Death. It sees right through you.

How to resolve the conundrum?
Are you at least enjoying passing the time on some level?

This sounds to me as if you are very sorry for yourself for some reason. But I don’t believe you. I think that every creature clinges to life (and if you’re getting upset now, you prove me right :wink: ).

To the OP:

If the human spirit doesn’t mirror God’s eternal essence, then Sartre was right - we make our own; we are like the river you never step into twice, a conscious one that chooses which way it goes. However…if the human spirit does mirror God’s essence, we are not dealing with a changing river, but an infinite well. We can choose to be filled from that well, or be dry wells ourselves. And we will become exactly what we choose.

I’m not waiting to die. I have poems yet to write.

duplicate

That’s good. :smiley:

So life is worth living and doing, it does have meaning and a point for you.

Why has your fish got feet?
I think you are missing the point. Do you know what Ixthos stands for?

The ichthus w/ feet is for me a symbol of theistic evolution. See biologos.org/questions My last post stands regardless.