43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
You will not be able to give an effective counter if you yourself have not read the Quran and be familiar with the Ahadith and Sira of Islam.
In the above case, it is Nyang [author of the article] who was cherry picking.
Note a commentary on this verse 3:172;
This verse refer to the midst of violence by Muhammad and his men and ‘what was right’ was the followers obedience of Muhammad to continue fighting and more violence.
The above article quoted;
“To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight] because they are wronged; and verily, God is most powerful for their aid,”
This is verse 22:39.
The problem with this verse and in many situation, the conditions for permission to fight or self-defense are vaguely stated and comprised of dualistic truths in the Quran, like the DUCK-RABBIT image which contain two truths within one image.
For example, in the drawing of cartoons of Prophet Muhammad, those evil prone Muslims who killed many non-Muslims interpreted they [Muslims] and Islam has been WRONGED, so based on verse 22:39 they are given permission to fight and in the process kill non-Muslims.
Now WHO ON EARTH can judge and decide whether these killers are right or wrong in their interpretation of 22:39?
Answer is no one because there are no central authority, if some claim to be, they cannot because only Allah can have the final say.
Since Allah will never appear on Earth to judge evil prone Muslims till they die and appear in Allah’s court, these evil prone Muslims will continue to fight and kill non-Muslims based on their own interpretations of what is ‘wronged’ with sincere belief they are doing their duty as a good Muslim destined toward Paradise [with hope of 72 virgins].
So in verse 22:39 Allah sanction [gives permission] and condone potential evils and violence.
The majority of Muslims will not exploit the ambiquity and dualistic truths within such verses as 22:39 but a minority, say 20% of evil prone Muslims who are born with evil tendency will natural response with evil, i.e. fight and kill non-Muslims who has wronged Islam.
But note, even though it is the minority, 20% or even 10% of 1.5 billion is a very critical quantum of 300 million or 150 millions potential evil prone Muslims respectively.
These minority 150-300 million evil prone Muslims are extra sensitive due to their existential desperations and the slightest event can be interpreted as wronged or a threat to Islam and Muslims, and they naturally respond with terrible evils and violence in retaliations. This is happening in reality and it is so evident around the world.
Note verse 22:39 with its open ended ‘wronged’ is merely one of tons of evil loaded verses. I have done an analysis and noted there are 3,400 verses out of the total of 6,236 verses [55% ] that can combined in various ways to trigger sensitive and evil prone Muslims to justify them committing evils and violence on non-Muslims and even other Muslims [deemed as hypocrites, apostate, traitors, etc.] with encouragement and permission from Allah of the Quran.
There are loads of real evil loaded verses that influence and inspire SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence. It is only natural and instinctual for any Muslims as a believer to be imperatively blind to such evil elements [like not seeing a 500 pound gorilla in the room].
So there are Islam-Inspired-Terrorist and the Quran [in part] is to be blamed.
As mentioned and explained, the evil prone Muslim should NOT take the major blame because they were unfortunately born with evil tendencies or had been brainwashed by others using this evil ideology which is partly from Islam.
If you want to counter me effectively, I suggest you read the Quran objectively and thoroughly first.
Note I stated 20% of Muslims [as with All humans] are prone to evils.
Violence is one type of ‘evil.’
I normally state 20% of all humans are prone to evil but I have not committed to state 20% of all human are prone to violence. I don’t have statistics on this, but it is a fact violence in various degrees is prevalent among humans as glaringly evident.
Here is my justifications for 20% [conservatively] of all humans are evil prone.
Evil is represented by a range from 1/100-low to 99/100-high.
Lying is a type of evil, albeit from the lower range.
Therefore 60% of All people are prone to commit evil.
To assert 20% of all people are prone to commit a range of evil acts [including murder, cheating, corruption, stealing, torture, rape, other major and minor crimes, etc.] is thus conservative and safe bet to its truth.
The very evil acts [the psychopaths, mass murderer, genocides, mass rapes, mass torture, mass oppressions, etc.] may only be committed by say 1% or less. This is a serious and significant quantum because merely one lone wolf is enough to generate terrible damage and horror to humanity. 1% of is 70 million of the world’s population and is 15 million of the most evil Muslims.
In reality, terrible evils are often led by a small group of charismatic evil leaders leading a group of direct followers who in turn influence the majority. One example is Hitler and his gang influencing the German people during WW II. It is the same with other dictators and evil leaders.
Thus to have 15 million [if 1%] or 150 million [if 10%] of evil prone Muslim, being influenced and inspired by the evil loaded verses in the Quran as sanctioned by Allah is a very frightening potential. This is not even a speculation but it is already a reality, one example; [29,285] was [29,275] a day ago!
Note this [rough] counter is merely one type of evil act that involved death of victims. There are loads of other types of evils committed by evil prone Muslims around the world but there are no readily available statistics for me to link.
Still, diddly, got any numbers for the opposite Muslims? Probably not. Probably would just not work well. The millions of Muslims that are helping societies just are not dramatic. The doctors , the educators, the charity workers, etc. they count for nothing even though they far out number the evil. Oh and many are women that have degrees even PHDs.
How many Christians or Jewish are in prison? Or mass murderers? What is so different? Oh wait , yea you mentioned an interpretation of an ambiguous text as the provocation.
Does not mean diddly unless you are willing to severely remove all texts and media.
You are going off topic and conflating [fallacious] unnecessary.
It is of utmost criticalness that ALL evils must be addressed and resolved, i.e. those related to Muslims and non-Muslims, secular and non-secular, etc.
This OP is about “Muslim Terrorist” so by protocol we have to stick to topic, i.e. specifically on Muslims and Islam only, not deflecting to non-Muslims evils and issues. Btw, I am not blaming the evil prone Muslims as the primary cause to the terrible evils and violence committed in the name of Islam.
There is no deliberate and total blindness to Muslims who are doing good but it it off topic to bring them in to deflect and dilute the issue of the OP.
Let say, some one notice a sudden appearance of a small dark mole on their skin and ask your advice. Are you going to change the subject by saying the person should ignore such an insignificant mole because the rest of the person skin is flawless? The health wisdom these days is one should check with the medical experts to ensure what mole that appear suddenly or not malignant.
The typical of using other examples to deflect and dilute the topic on hand is bad logical thinking, i.e. they come within the red-herring, tu-quoque fallacy. This is a very common defense mechanism, e.g. to deflect from this topic, many will invoke, what about Hitler - a Christian, what about Mao, Stalin, etc. etc.
Know thyself.
One interesting self-knowledge would perhaps try to understand why one has that tendency to deflect from the main topic in this case or in others.
You brought up numbers, you brought up the contraversy. Am I only to agree in order to stay on topic? I cannot point out opposition? If so what the hell is there to discuss?
To stay on topic your either agree or disagree. I thought that is very obvious. You can point out opposition if you think my premises are wrong, but fallacious counters are not credible and a waste of time.
Note this OP and my original intention is specifically about “Muslim” Terrorists not “religious” terrorists.
If you want to discuss terrorists related to other religion, here is an OP for it. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=191323
So no comparing, no social numbers other than your terrorists, no mentioning the other Muslims or how they translate, we must only agree with you in order to stay on topic.
This thread is about “Muslim Terrorists” and their evil acts. Note it is not agreeing to my expectations but it is a normal forum protocol of staying to topic as much as possible.
The Dalai Lama argued there is no such thing as “Muslim Terrorists” and I argued otherwise and provided my justifications. What is your views on the above?
If you want to discuss other religious terrorists, comparisons, numbers or whatever is related to the topic, you can do it here which I started for that purpose. Religious Terrorists viewtopic.php?f=5&t=191323
The Dalai Lama merely pointed out that “Islamic Terrorist” is an oxymoron, much like “Islamic Christian” or “Islamic Judaist”. If you are truly one, you can’t also be the other. They are not subgroups.
There are terrorists who happen to be Islamic and thus use Islamic excuses. There are terrorists that happen to be Secular and thus use Secular excuses. There are terrorists who happen to be Judaist and thus use Judaist excuses.
Cherry picked statements , well If you are allowed to pick out violent ones then others are allowed to find the peaceful ones and live by those. The majority choose the peace. The very small minority live by the violent. The majority disowns the minority. The minority still claims they are part of the majority. The majority says no. Well if the majority says no then it is no. If your family disowns you, you may keep the name, have the genetics but, you are not family.
If the majority tells the Dalai Lama that the terrorist groups are not Muslim then terrorists are not part of the family. You cherry pick on 10 or 20 percent when 80 to 90 percent want peace. You bitch about how horrible the text is and you are not even raised in a home that follows. Words are interpretive, especially in religious texts. You and a few interpret hate, the majority does not. I think that says a lot about the individual.
The Dalai Lama stated “Islamic Terrorist” is an oxymoron because he assumed ALL religions are supposed to be peaceful.
Dalai Lama’s logic;
Since Islam is a religion, it must be a peaceful religion.
Terrorists are not peaceful people.
Therefore Islamic Terrorist is an oxymoron.
That all religions are peaceful is a bad assumptions and based on hearsay and ignorance.
To make any assertion about Islam, a person with intellectual integrity must at least understand [not necessary agree] 80% or more of what the religion of Islam is about.
Based in the reasonable effort I have put it, I dare say I understand up to 80% ‘what Islam is’ and my conclusion based on what I know is, Islam [in part, not wholly] is not a peaceful religion. Islam [in part] is inherently evil and malignant.
The inherent evil and malignant elements within Islam influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslim from a pool of 20% [conservatively] of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world as evident in this near-approximate counter [29,327].
Since my views differ from the Dalai Lama’s conclusion 'Islam is peaceful, Islamist Terrorist-oxymoron, I infer the Dalai Lama do not have sufficient knowledge ‘what is Islam.’ Besides the Dalai Lama has never claimed he is very familiar with Islam per-se.
I agree with the above points.
Terrorists will use all sorts of excuses to justify their evil acts. However the question is whether their excuses are justified or not?
I know there any no good nor justifiable excuses for terrorists who are Christians, Buddhists, Taoist and the likes to use their respective holy texts for their terrorist acts.
On the other hand, there are lots of verses within the Quran, Ahadiths and Sira of Islam that influenced, compelled and inspire for SOME [not all] Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence as permitted by their Allah.
These Muslims believed they are acting rightly and as a duty to please Allah. The consequences of their sincere & pious acts as good Muslims however create terrors and we they are labelled a Muslim Terrorist or Islam-Inspired-Terrorists.
Based on my 80% understanding of Islam, the existence of Muslim Terrorists is true and the Dalai Lama’s claim the term Muslim-Terrorists is an oxymoron is false based on ignorance.
What is outstanding in my above claim is I have not presented evidence from Islam that it is inherently evil. I have no problem producing the necessary evidence where necessary. Here is one verses amongst the thousands that influences Muslims to cast terrror upon non-believers;
8:12. When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying:) I [Allah] am with you.
So make those who believe [Muslims] stand firm.
I will throw fear [terror] into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve.
Then smite [fa-iḍ’ribū: Daad-Ra-Ba] the necks and smite [wa-iḍ’ribū] of them each finger.
I would suggest those who want to counter my views read up the Quran at least 10 times and whatever is necessary to understand ‘what is Islam’.
My point [again];
Based on my 80% understanding of Islam, the existence of Muslim Terrorists is true and the Dalai Lama’s claim the term Muslim-Terrorists is an oxymoron is false based on ignorance.
You are off point in the above and don’t spout too much personal attacks with ‘bitch’ and ‘about the individual.’ What I have presented is based on objective evidence and sound arguments.
Where did you get the idea the majority is absolute right, i.e. the majority of Muslims represent the truth.
Note the flat-Earth theory and many other theories of the majority which were proven wrong over the past.
What is to be true must have reasonable objective evidences.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 10 times, preferably at least 50 times and other relevant materials to get a good grasp of what Islam is and represent.
I faced the same challenge when discussing Islam with Muslims, so I read up the Quran [by now at least 50 times] and they even dismissed my views if I don’t read it in Arabic, so I learn up Arabic as well. I agree basic Quranic Arabic is very necessary but there is no need to read the whole Quran in Arabic since we can now have access to 50++ English translations of the Quran easily.
The word bitch is not an attack on you. It is an emphasis word about your seeming obsession on Muslims and your view of them.
Where did I even say the majority is absolutely right /truth. ? I said nothing about their beliefs.
And yet again I am declared off point.
The Majority of a faith can declare a minority within wrong and not of their group. Once this is publicly done, there is separation.
You can pick at their text , find the horrible parts, declare the horrible parts the majority of the text, you can call the minority group by the title of the majority, you can declare your knowledge of the entire text to be superior but, it does not change the simple fact that the majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. Those that follow violence in the name of Muslim religion are on their own and not Muslim.
You want to be right, you have an apparent issue with Muslims and yea I know you will declare all this off topic.
It is a common mistake to presume that others are equally as dumb as oneself. But the Dalai Lama is not an idiot and probably had more education from experts by the age of 15 than most ever obtain throughout their entire lives.
I am aware of the very extensive knowledge that the Dalai Lama has. I have more than 10 books written by the Dalai Lama and have read many articles on him and his knowledge.
However from what the Dalai Lama has expressed of ‘Muslim Terrorist’ I believe he is ignorant of a very thorough knowledge of ‘what is Islam’.
If you think otherwise show me proofs the Dalai Lama has read and researched deeply into the religion of Islam like what he had done for Tibetan Buddhism and Scientific knowledge.
I have always agree the majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. So there is no issue on this point. But majority do not imply truths or that Islam is fully peaceful. Therefore it is possible for the minority to be true Muslim and this warrant an in-depth research into this subject which I had done.
The basic point is where there are evil and violence in the world, as concerned citizen of humanity we must give attention and contribute in whatever ways to resolve the problem.
In resolving the problem we must break up and identify specific parts of the problem for resolution.
One part of the major problem of evil I think I am competent to discuss is related to Islam.
I have traced the root causes of this problem to;
SOME Muslims who are evil prone
Evil elements within the Quran and other Islamic texts.
In a way, I am hoping someone will give evidence to prove I am wrong which I meant I will gain new knowledge. It is a lose-win situation.
To topic, if you think I am wrong, prove to me there are no evil prone Muslims and there are no evil elements in the Quran and other Islamic texts, thus no Muslim terrorists.
So far you have not given any proofs to counter my points as above.
All you have done is merely complaining on a general basis.
I believe my theory, ‘Islam-in-part is inherently evil’ is true based on the proofs and arguments I have proposed [until proven otherwise]. Now if you simply brushed off such a theory without proofs then you are indirectly complicit to the future evil and violence committed by evil prone Muslims on humanity.
