To stay on topic your either agree or disagree. I thought that is very obvious. You can point out opposition if you think my premises are wrong, but fallacious counters are not credible and a waste of time.
Point out the fallacious and prove they are.
I had pointed them out earlier,
Note this OP and my original intention is specifically about “Muslim” Terrorists not “religious” terrorists.
If you want to discuss terrorists related to other religion, here is an OP for it.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=191323
So no comparing, no social numbers other than your terrorists, no mentioning the other Muslims or how they translate, we must only agree with you in order to stay on topic.
This thread is about “Muslim Terrorists” and their evil acts. Note it is not agreeing to my expectations but it is a normal forum protocol of staying to topic as much as possible.
The Dalai Lama argued there is no such thing as “Muslim Terrorists” and I argued otherwise and provided my justifications. What is your views on the above?
If you want to discuss other religious terrorists, comparisons, numbers or whatever is related to the topic, you can do it here which I started for that purpose.
Religious Terrorists
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=191323
The Dalai Lama merely pointed out that “Islamic Terrorist” is an oxymoron, much like “Islamic Christian” or “Islamic Judaist”. If you are truly one, you can’t also be the other. They are not subgroups.
There are terrorists who happen to be Islamic and thus use Islamic excuses. There are terrorists that happen to be Secular and thus use Secular excuses. There are terrorists who happen to be Judaist and thus use Judaist excuses.
Cherry picked statements , well If you are allowed to pick out violent ones then others are allowed to find the peaceful ones and live by those. The majority choose the peace. The very small minority live by the violent. The majority disowns the minority. The minority still claims they are part of the majority. The majority says no. Well if the majority says no then it is no. If your family disowns you, you may keep the name, have the genetics but, you are not family.
If the majority tells the Dalai Lama that the terrorist groups are not Muslim then terrorists are not part of the family. You cherry pick on 10 or 20 percent when 80 to 90 percent want peace. You bitch about how horrible the text is and you are not even raised in a home that follows. Words are interpretive, especially in religious texts. You and a few interpret hate, the majority does not. I think that says a lot about the individual.
And James is also correct.
The Dalai Lama stated “Islamic Terrorist” is an oxymoron because he assumed ALL religions are supposed to be peaceful.
Dalai Lama’s logic;
Since Islam is a religion, it must be a peaceful religion.
Terrorists are not peaceful people.
Therefore Islamic Terrorist is an oxymoron.
That all religions are peaceful is a bad assumptions and based on hearsay and ignorance.
To make any assertion about Islam, a person with intellectual integrity must at least understand [not necessary agree] 80% or more of what the religion of Islam is about.
Based in the reasonable effort I have put it, I dare say I understand up to 80% ‘what Islam is’ and my conclusion based on what I know is, Islam [in part, not wholly] is not a peaceful religion. Islam [in part] is inherently evil and malignant.
The inherent evil and malignant elements within Islam influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslim from a pool of 20% [conservatively] of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world as evident in this near-approximate counter [29,327].
Since my views differ from the Dalai Lama’s conclusion 'Islam is peaceful, Islamist Terrorist-oxymoron, I infer the Dalai Lama do not have sufficient knowledge ‘what is Islam.’ Besides the Dalai Lama has never claimed he is very familiar with Islam per-se.
I agree with the above points.
Terrorists will use all sorts of excuses to justify their evil acts. However the question is whether their excuses are justified or not?
I know there any no good nor justifiable excuses for terrorists who are Christians, Buddhists, Taoist and the likes to use their respective holy texts for their terrorist acts.
On the other hand, there are lots of verses within the Quran, Ahadiths and Sira of Islam that influenced, compelled and inspire for SOME [not all] Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence as permitted by their Allah.
These Muslims believed they are acting rightly and as a duty to please Allah. The consequences of their sincere & pious acts as good Muslims however create terrors and we they are labelled a Muslim Terrorist or Islam-Inspired-Terrorists.
Based on my 80% understanding of Islam, the existence of Muslim Terrorists is true and the Dalai Lama’s claim the term Muslim-Terrorists is an oxymoron is false based on ignorance.
What is outstanding in my above claim is I have not presented evidence from Islam that it is inherently evil. I have no problem producing the necessary evidence where necessary. Here is one verses amongst the thousands that influences Muslims to cast terrror upon non-believers;
8:12. When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying:) I [Allah] am with you.
So make those who believe [Muslims] stand firm.
I will throw fear [terror] into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve.
Then smite [fa-iḍ’ribū: Daad-Ra-Ba] the necks and smite [wa-iḍ’ribū] of them each finger.
I would suggest those who want to counter my views read up the Quran at least 10 times and whatever is necessary to understand ‘what is Islam’.
My point [again];
Based on my 80% understanding of Islam, the existence of Muslim Terrorists is true and the Dalai Lama’s claim the term Muslim-Terrorists is an oxymoron is false based on ignorance.
You are off point in the above and don’t spout too much personal attacks with ‘bitch’ and ‘about the individual.’ What I have presented is based on objective evidence and sound arguments.
Where did you get the idea the majority is absolute right, i.e. the majority of Muslims represent the truth.
Note the flat-Earth theory and many other theories of the majority which were proven wrong over the past.
What is to be true must have reasonable objective evidences.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 10 times, preferably at least 50 times and other relevant materials to get a good grasp of what Islam is and represent.
I faced the same challenge when discussing Islam with Muslims, so I read up the Quran [by now at least 50 times] and they even dismissed my views if I don’t read it in Arabic, so I learn up Arabic as well. I agree basic Quranic Arabic is very necessary but there is no need to read the whole Quran in Arabic since we can now have access to 50++ English translations of the Quran easily.
The word bitch is not an attack on you. It is an emphasis word about your seeming obsession on Muslims and your view of them.
Where did I even say the majority is absolutely right /truth. ? I said nothing about their beliefs.
And yet again I am declared off point.
The Majority of a faith can declare a minority within wrong and not of their group. Once this is publicly done, there is separation.
You can pick at their text , find the horrible parts, declare the horrible parts the majority of the text, you can call the minority group by the title of the majority, you can declare your knowledge of the entire text to be superior but, it does not change the simple fact that the majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. Those that follow violence in the name of Muslim religion are on their own and not Muslim.
You want to be right, you have an apparent issue with Muslims and yea I know you will declare all this off topic.
It is a common mistake to presume that others are equally as dumb as oneself. But the Dalai Lama is not an idiot and probably had more education from experts by the age of 15 than most ever obtain throughout their entire lives.
I am aware of the very extensive knowledge that the Dalai Lama has. I have more than 10 books written by the Dalai Lama and have read many articles on him and his knowledge.
However from what the Dalai Lama has expressed of ‘Muslim Terrorist’ I believe he is ignorant of a very thorough knowledge of ‘what is Islam’.
If you think otherwise show me proofs the Dalai Lama has read and researched deeply into the religion of Islam like what he had done for Tibetan Buddhism and Scientific knowledge.
How do you define ‘who is a Muslim.’
Note my definition of who is a Muslim in here;
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=191346
I have always agree the majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. So there is no issue on this point. But majority do not imply truths or that Islam is fully peaceful. Therefore it is possible for the minority to be true Muslim and this warrant an in-depth research into this subject which I had done.
The basic point is where there are evil and violence in the world, as concerned citizen of humanity we must give attention and contribute in whatever ways to resolve the problem.
In resolving the problem we must break up and identify specific parts of the problem for resolution.
One part of the major problem of evil I think I am competent to discuss is related to Islam.
I have traced the root causes of this problem to;
- SOME Muslims who are evil prone
- Evil elements within the Quran and other Islamic texts.
In a way, I am hoping someone will give evidence to prove I am wrong which I meant I will gain new knowledge. It is a lose-win situation.
To topic, if you think I am wrong, prove to me there are no evil prone Muslims and there are no evil elements in the Quran and other Islamic texts, thus no Muslim terrorists.
So far you have not given any proofs to counter my points as above.
All you have done is merely complaining on a general basis.
I believe my theory, ‘Islam-in-part is inherently evil’ is true based on the proofs and arguments I have proposed [until proven otherwise]. Now if you simply brushed off such a theory without proofs then you are indirectly complicit to the future evil and violence committed by evil prone Muslims on humanity.
All religions are in part inherently evil. Some are more than others. And it depends upon what a person thinks is evil.
The Muslims/Islamics that are evil will commit evil and expose themselves quite blatantly in this case. They are quite proud and are not exactly hiding. They openly recruit the disgruntled humans from all cultures. Thoroughly knowing their beliefs is not necessary. Knowing they are a group that claims a title to the majority is not necessary. The way to change their desire to kill others is through infiltration and make killing nonprofitable .
Has it even occurred to you that world agencies want these groups alive ? It has to me. The world governments can easily go and remove these cells. They know where they are, who they are, how many there are. Governments have access to tech toys that are amazing. In one day all terrorists could be wiped out along with potential ones. Yet this does not occur. This is not conspiracy theory , it is reality. Money, power and control are the whys. Eventually they will have to eliminate the terrorists to prevent the inevitable rebellion. They are right now (quite likely) preparing another situation to make people dependent upon them.
Yes in one sense. However to be more efficient we need to dig deeper into the root causes. This is why I analyze the evils from ALL religions into;
- Religion associated evils
- Religion Inspired evils.
Without a detailed analysis one will be on a wild goose chase or fighting fires all the time instead of extinguishing the source of the fire.
Religion associated evils [1] are those evil acts committed by believers on their own compulsions and has nothing to do with the tenets and doctrine of the specific religion. Example evil acts by SOME Buddhists in Myanmar has nothing to do with any verses from the main Sutras of Buddhism.
Religion Inspired evils [2] are are those evil acts committed by believers when influenced and inspired directly by the tenets and doctrine of the specific religion. Example, the majority of evil acts committed by SOME evil prone Muslims at present and in the past were directly traceable to the verses in the Quran as a direct or indirect command from Allah to kill or commit evil onto non-Muslims and even other Muslims.
Evil is a very loose term. However we can easily arrive at a consensus on ‘what is evil’ and the acts that are termed evil. For example, it is obvious genocide, mass rapes, deliberate murders, and many others common acts of evils can be agreed by all normal human beings are morally evil. I have done sufficient research to establish what is generally termed evil within a range from low to high degree of evil.
Your thinking here is not sufficient nor efficient to the point.
Muslims as human being do commit evils that are not linked to the Quran, e.g. a crime of passion, petty thefts, etc. thus has nothing to do with Islam. This is not the point here.
The point here is the Muslims who are evil prone will commit evil when influenced by the evil elements in the Quran [& other Islamic] texts. The blame here is thus primarily on Islam [partly] itself. I would not focus the blame on the evil prone Muslims who were unfortunately born with an active evil propensity, tendency and proclivity.
Your focus on terrorism is too narrow. Evil prone Muslims where influenced and inspired by evil elements in the Quran [Islam] commit a full range of evils beside the more notable terrorist and political related evils. Evil prone Muslims as influenced by Islam [in part] commit evils relating to sphere of social, cultural, economics, legal, arts, etc. besides the political.
I understand many political authorities [including Islamic ones] exploited Muslims for their political interest for example FBI and the Talibans and even at the present. But the root problem is because such a potential for exploitation exists in the Quran. So the ultimate source of the problem is in the Quran [& other texts] thus Islam itself.
My main point is regardless of the varieties of evil from all aspects but has any relation with Islam and Muslim, the ultimate root cause is Islam itself because Allah [rather some human{s}] incorporated evil elements in the Quran while it was compiled during the 7th century.
Your dogmatic insistence to fight fires rather than the source of the fire is a weakness itself and indirectly complicit to the terrible evils that will continue to be committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil elements in the Quran [& other texts] and Islam.
Therefore we should focus on Islam [partly] as the source of all Islamic-Inspired evils and violence and not running about fighting fires instead of the source of the fire.
A tool that inspired people to kill is held to be evil or just a tool misused by an evil person?
A gun can be used to save lives from evil or be used to commit evil. A knife, an axe, etc.
The Quran is a tool. It is up to the person that holds it wether to use it for good or evil. The tool is not the problem. The problem is within the minds of those that use it. The leaders of this group are adept at conning the disgruntled recruits. How?
Also , the leaders are not out there with bombs are they? They are safe and sound enjoying life.
You and the governments are either blindly or deliberately missing that crucial piece. You are picking at a tool that is not the problem. The young recruits are missing the very simple fact that their leaders never put their lives on the line for the supposed reward of the afterlife.
Why do the governments not address this as a tool for ending or at least hindering recruitment? The text can be used to stop this. The proper group working together can use words to bring peace just as words are being used to create war. It is not the text, it is the manipulation of the text.
Thing is, a gun doesn’t have a sticker on it saying “Murder people with this”. It often comes with a booklet saying “Do not murder people with this”. Quran is the exact opposite,it tells you to murder people.
It is not a manipulation of text. It blatantly tells you to murder people in the Quran. In fact the only manipulation of text is to argue that the Quran does not tell you to murder people.
You say that it is a tool, but tools are meant for building and repairing things.
The Quran is pretty much the exact opposite of a tool, since it un-builds, it is against Muslismism to build arts music and many other things.
What you have missed is the Quran is a tool for human[s] who are like a person who is drowning in the middle of a deep sea and driven by instincts to grab at any thing to save his life.
The Quran and Islam is a tool presented to human[s] like a double-edge blade. The Quran was not authored by a God but by human[s] and likely by humans who are inclined to evils and violence and that is why they included evil elements in the Quran.
My point is you have failed to understand human nature and psychology, that desperate humans when their life is hanging by the skin of their teeth or a drowning man, will do whatever it takes to save their life in priority over any thing else including killing others and committing other evils.
Now the Quran promised human[s] they will be saved from eternal death if they submit to Allah and accept the terms and conditions in the Quran.
The terms and conditions in the Quran that will save Muslims from eternal death [the most fearful thing] unfortunately included loads of evil elements that included killing non-Muslims under very vague “IF” conditions.
The Quran also promised Muslims who die as martyrs [killing non-Muslims] will be rewarded with an expeditious path to Paradise surrounded by the grandest sensual delights that include eternal virgins.
Based on my understanding of human nature, I understand appx 80% of Muslims are born with good tendencies and thus will not be influenced nor are desperate to that extend to take Allah’s offer of being martyrs and killing infidels [deemed as a thread to Islam].
However there are a natural existence of appx. 20% of Muslims [as with ALL humans] who will be blinded and influenced by the evil elements and offer to do “evil”* by Allah so that they can clean their sins immediately and given a clean passport to Paradise.
- what is termed “evil” from our perspective is perceived as “good” acts and a duty as a Muslim to please Allah.
It is this “good” act that drive SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
The evidence is so glaring, i.e. one example is this [29,389] below;
There is a wide range of other types of evil besides the above terrible evils and violence.
Note in contrast, wiser religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, and the likes understood human nature and the vulnerability of the evil prone believers, and that is the reason these religions do not include leading evil elements in their main holy texts.
Islam and the Quran as authored by evil prone human[s] included loads of evil elements in their holy texts and they end up influencing and inspiring the unavoidable existence of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Therefore the rationale of promoting of good moral for the future of humanity is to get rid of the evil elements in the Quran* to prevent very desperate evil prone believers from being influenced by evil elements.
- or get rid of the whole Quran and Islam where possible.
Your argument seemingly is to keep* the evil elements in the Quran. Such a move will continue to enable the evil elements in the Quran to infect more evil prone Muslims [not curable at present] to commit more evils and violence in the present and the future.
- otherwise you are ignorant there are evil elements in the Quran, in that case you should read the Quran to check my claims.
The critical words related to the issues are too ambiguous to arrive at any precise conclusions. Again I suggest you read the Quran and Ahadiths to understand this issue.
As I had argued, the Quran do not allow any Muslim or human on Earth to decide whether the evil prone fundamentalists Muslims are right or wrong. As stated in the Quran, Allah is the final arbiter of all acts of any human being on Judgment Day.
So in the meantime the evil prone fundamentalist Muslims will continue to commit terrible evils and violence which from their perspective are ‘good’ acts as a duty of a Muslim to please Allah.