Trump Supporter

Sorry , the above was meant for Arminius

Yes but he placed himself there, it was not as though someone placed a gun at his head.

Can you honestly say that we place ourselves in places? On our own?

Yes,certainly at times

To defend my position Arminius, is a difficult one,at best
The idea of a material dialectic is certainly a controversial one,even in today’s atmosphere

But a presumption is a presumption, and it is apropos that Trump is a paradigm of revision. Therefore, it would still be convenient to base an argument in its own merit, especially at a time so full of duplicity, since it is of duplicity to deny a formal argument sans for reasons which you pointed to in the manyform usages of significant words. Especially key words relating to Dialectic.

Hence, we go back to the usage pre Hegel, and find a differance.That difference is as significant before as after Hegel’ s use,and as such, a very brief correlation would bear it out, at the very least.

Not that it would. constitute the totally abstracted reflection of its meaning in such a manner, but, it would imply relevance.

Dear Jerkey.

If it is right that “Trump is a paradigm of revision”, what kind of revision is it and where does it exactly lead to?

To times before Hegel, thus: before 1770? Or what do you mean?

Your text does not make this clear.

Hello Arminius,

Again ,revision is such a general term, that to specify its usage, one that literally fits its intended use would be necessary.

Here I am using it in its wide context of trying to implement change, whereas the blueprints and the power and wi behind that change have been clearly outlined prior to election.

In the narrow sense, it can not yet be absolutely and irrevocably inscribed, because, non of it has been implemented.

However, it certainly looks as if it will be. The former homeland security chief himself was quoted in saying that Trump has the potential to be a great President. That said, the narrowest possible interpretation of that idea can only be used in reference to Trump, once he has clearly defined his position in terms of an implementrd, socially proved movement, which now only appears as also a possibility.

The ideas are reactionary and drastic to the point of bravura, yet, bravura at a time requiring as such.

So , revision could be seen as of yet , a movement, albeit a drastic attempt to insure the success of Capitalism, against the backdrop of a social movement not complacent with it.

Hello again.

Yes, but isn’t “reactionary” also a general term?

What exactly makes those ideas you mentioned so “reactionary”?

“Great president” or “implemented, socially proved movement”, a “possibility” or not - that all does not express very much, does it?

I am not a Trump fan but hoping that you will enlighten me. Please clarify! :slight_smile:

You are right on point. The genealogical precedents of meaning are built up from one word to the next.A reactionary is someone who looks for precedents consisting of systems based on models, paradigms that worked before in some context. So you comment is fitting .

I found the following defintion of “reactionary”, but I must say that I do not fully accept it:

The definition is one that refers to the French revolution, and the French revolutionaries were not better than those they fightet against, all other revolutionaries after them have given evidence, because they were even more terroristic. In addition: All revolutionaries react! So they themselves are reactionaries.

What remains if all those definitions of “reactionary” are not really convincing?

There still remains the lurid record of the purges of members of the ancient regime, memorialized by the most famous scene of the murder of Marat.

As far as the foibles of history go, pictures are worth far more then words. Your pictorial representations are very relevant to the motive of the course of this discussion.

Yes, but note that pictures are not always far more worth than words. They too can give you the wrong impression and are used for the purpose of propaganda

The worth of propaganda is not always evaluated in terms of right or wrong, they are mostly seen for what they are worth in terms of being effective or not.

When Trump’s involvement allegedly underlying the conspiracy to stop the investigation is muted by a picture of Trump’s audience with the pope, some die
hard members of his base, some Catholic, interpret
this positively toward the base allegation; whereas Spicer’s exclusion from said meeting may not create a positive image, without the actual photograph.

The thoughts of the former usually creat positive inference, whereas the later, more likely shift toward a
non pictorial reasoning process, as to an absence, a shift from a figurative to a literal basing of cognition.

The goodness or badness of the propaganda value, at first, do not involve the question of which presentation is good or bad, but instead compares
the picture of Trump with the verbal content of the other. Which propaganda is of more value in terms of getting to the truth? The absence of Spicer, literally, or the presence of Trump figuratively?

A constitutional crisis. It has been suggested that a debate on Trump , at this point might be premature, and the better way may consist in a contest between the pros and cons of capitalism.

I think to argue that may also incite those who look at the world-soul as a unitary ideal between the sudden upsurge of Uber-materialism of relatively
recent panic reaction to its possible demolition, and,
its moral position as the basis for a credible social system.

Therefore the introduction of a world out of alignment between its present delicate material versus its moral-spiritual component, has come to a point of
crisis, a crisis that has not been precedented in its
scope and potential magnitude in the amount of damage hidden within its folds of repressed mania.

That the mania is two fold, rather, three, is inherent in the Freudian one primarily, an erotomania of the extremist kind, as manifested in its various
signatures of weltschmertz, as it comes through a
kind of shaded lens, one that betokens to more kindly times of deflection, of which less and less is apparent.

Secondarily, the very subtle political shift which has
equally been subverted, in the sphere of the
constitution, in both senses of the social and psychological and the political one. Because, the difference between the US Constitution’s promise of a
calibrated and synced, and attuned relation between
human rights, vested and guaranteed by the implied tools of getting there-by the enjoyment of life, the material manifestation of social economics and the
rights to attain them through the power of the self, Sought to sustain it’self of its right for self determination.

That these two spheres have come totally unglued, and currently are only sustained through the ever repeating and increasingly ominous re-appearance of
cryptic and cynical sophistry, condescendingly
pressing into an incredulous public the dictum, that power needs no explanation to clarify, because, times are complex, and the herd is basically fodder anyway.

The effects are obvious, and the fact that things are allowed to go on, in spite of astounding abuses of
power, constitutional decomposition, and the
by which lies have become a matter of fact accepted way to carry on daily life, support it, have become commonplace , daily occurances.
I will not speak of the consequences either way, but one thing is very clear:Capital is in deep trouble, and the political, economic, and military apparatus is geared to the n’th degree, poised to defend it by
whatever it takes, even the use of weapons of mass
destruction, or the abbrigation , or elimination of human rights, as we have come to understand them.

The only reason for this new, relative and uncanny ability to hold on to power, is, that democracy is failing as well, at a time when Capital is in its greatest peril since it’s inception.

The liberals and their counterparts, their constituency are increasingly becoming hostile among themselves
subliminally acting out of their diminishing sense of their own being, in terms of their sense of
constitution. Here, constitution in its generic sense, i
mplies a psychosocial existence, increasingly experienced as being on seige, by forces, outside of their own sense of control. Increasingly, society
surrenders more and more to upper echelon
authority, by virtue of being in direct relation to their own sense of dispossession from traditional introjected roles within that sense.

This dissipated constitution,reminds of earlier , now archaic categories of psychiatric nomenclature, such as in a psychoneurotic category of the past: neurasthenia.

The libido surges to overcome this general fatigue, in a desperate effort to overcome the loss of power, by a resulting erotomania, filling the emptying middle self ideal with a libinized ideal, forming a renewed interest in the looking glass-mirror of the vanity by which the evil queen was destroyed by vanity, before she exclaimed-who is the fairest of them all? This mirror stage was applied in French symbolism, and incorporated as the modus operans of an existential process of the post Freudians, Attari in particular.

The reduction of a dated and porous Freudianism, to this new ontology of mirrored effects, reflects the ambiguity inherent in an original constitution. That the solution can only be found in the fetish, the loosening of meaningful associations, a cut up of symbolic ties, is a defensive process; vis, almost to the point of pre-figuring the omnious implications which a socially disintegrated aesthetic can cause, without breaking the main significant anchored line of signification. This looseness of the aesthetic, of the phenomenal, has the more, re-asserted the projective necessity for the noumenal.

This process is fast becoming the normal, the expressive relativity of correctness, and is not meant as suggestive, only a kind of sketch, of an internalization of the inner soul of a narcissist.

Since no challenge has been given, I propose the following: I will debate either side of the argument, based on my divided opinion 50/50) on the proposed issue. Most all opinion polls have split evenly on the proposed debate on this issue, so, just like in chess, when you are given the choice of choosing black or white randomly, I will follow that format, on basis of chance, rather then political bias. At this point, on basis of in house polls, and the great political divide, I cannot decisively claim to have any bias at all. So if someone wants to debate , I will at this point afford the benefit of choosing which side of the argument he/she wants to argue, hoping this will enhance the possibility of a meaningful debate, apart from personalities’ appearently bias.

Arminius, that one would be fine, or this one You previously suggested. Thanks, I am eagerly awaiting
your comments, especially in light of what has happened in Hamburg.

Yours Truly, Meno

Sorry for my late answer. I have been busy.


Perhaps (perhaps!) the U.S. people voted more against Hillary Clinton than for Donald Trump.

You asked „what has happend in Hamburg?“ See here.

Globalism is the synthesis of capitalism (thesis) and communism (antithesis). So if you are a globalist, then you can also switch between capitalism and communism.

Thanks for Your reply,Arminius. We have already agreed about a number of things, among them the appropriateness of the dialectic, I saw this coming as early as the Reagan years, when the dialectic seemed to have expired with the demise of Communism. The take on it at the time was reasonable enough, it will leave a vacuum of rationale, in strictly reasonable terms.

However, no one expected a persistent widening of inclusion of an anti thesis of a system which does not operate utilizing its opposite.

In other words the US operates under a differing set of assumptions, whereby, it’s social and political evolution consisted of primarily economic condpsidetation based on overwhelming commercial values, whereas its nemesis, the former Soviets incorporated ideological primacy as their basis for society. Marx’s theory evolves out of the foreseeability of socio-economic distress as the outcome of a uncontrolled , pragmatic approach.

The widening of the function of the dialectic to include the substantial non ideological concept of Material, assumes the successful implementation of an arguably substantial pragmatic concept within the logical structure of Hegelian Dialectics. This is what he was doing, within the primary assumptions of adapting one into the other.

Is Your further inclusion of the wider variables of different systems of not only Communism and Capitalism, but there derivatives of pragmatism against idealism, (if you could see communism as aligned to a primary start of social equality as ideal).

Further, if You could claim, that globalist can change between the two The thesis or the anti thesis, if, that could account for the trouble in Germany, -but I am jumping ahead, and more needs to be said about the suprising antithesis of the German position, with their dissatisfaction with Trump.

Germany actually switched , under Merkel, granted, from an ideally oriented society, where racial purity had exclusive philosophical and historical precedents, to multi culturalism, (and again here a subset could account for this , in the argument that labor is sorely needed in Germany, hence the need to import foreign workers)-but no need to dwell on this here.

The fact is, globalists seem to underwrite the confusion, between primary and secondary considerations.

My personal impression so far , of Trump, and Trumpism, is at this early period, is that he is obscure intentionally, to cover for the workability toward the synthesis. He comes in as a populist, catering to a class who feel they really are poor, white underdogs, resenting what they feel as reverse discrimination in terms of programs devoted to economic equalization, - and ironically, being one the wealthiest people in the US, he wins. He is the paradigm of a synthetic man, a pragmatist, whose message sounds more like a socialist. Is this not the perfect example of adopting a prahmatic materialism to a social dialectic?

What this means, or could possibly mean, is that Trump suffers from inauthenticity at the very least, or a gross manufacturer of misrepresented goods, at the worst.

Perhaps this confusion became appearently inHamburg to the stent it had, coming to open social violence, whereas the confusion in the US, so far has been subdued, and sustained on the level of verbal dissension.

The big question is, whether the confusion is the effect of the failure of the wider dialectical inclusion of the very antithesis that produced the different systems, if it is somewhat possible to believe that Marx substantiation of Hegel’s pure dialectic was a proximate cause of the evolution of the differing thesis of communism; whereas, now it is no longer a question of the evolutionary differentiation, but the setting up of an allegedly failed system against the other.

Can a conclusion of sorts be reached, at least on some level? Can it be that with the alleged demise of the substantiated dialectical materialism, a further failure of pure capitalism was not foreseen? And that a new synthesis in the form of globalization was to be the key to the survival of a comprehensive system?

And perhaps such a synthesis included a minimalization of the differences, by a reduction to more existential terms? That would explain the resistance of the U S federal government, namely the Department of Labor to resist the States efforts to raise the minimum hourly rate of labor?

The rationale here, is the equalization of global wages, minimizing rates of the Western Industrial Nations with those of the Third World.

The wider perimeter here is made more complicated by the possession or near possession of nuclear weapons by third world countries such as North Korea, whereby a liberal constitution would topple its dictatorship.

Arminius, a while back, You were of the opinion, that had Ms. Clinton, nuclear war would have been unavoidable, on basis of regional conflict, I suppose, which really didn’t become clear at the time in Your assessment. However, if the wider extension of a reposition of the Hegel Dialectic is considered, then it seems worthwhile to consider the widely discussed Constitutional Issued arising out of the wider conflict, as echoed by Trump’s hyperbolic rhetoric of basing the assessment of the conflict on the idea of the ‘Clash of Civilizations’. There appears a parallel here, but the question is, is Trump actually expressing hyperbolic rhetoric for the sake of sustaining or increasing the level of chaos? Or, is the world so chaotic nowadays, that Obama’s and other US presidents were trying to regulate and control the dangerous state?

So the synthesis (Heglelian) must be tethering between substantial and insubstantial manifestation, work in progress.

If the above comes close to what’s going on, then the manifested conflicts in Hamburg may be more of a symptom of a general feeling of confusion, rather then a clear sense an underlying illness.

Forgive the clumsy length, but I know , if anyone can You can distill into a general understanding of the intentended meaning here. If not, please let me know.
Don’t be surprised, if I am unable to paraphrase, technically it is impossible for me at this time, but will look into later on.

.