The Silent Mind

I think that you are talking about keeping your act together by virtue of finding a higher aim. Without a highest priority, entropic noise dissolves anentropic being (particles disperse into the vast abyss). The divided house eventually falls.

@ James

I think you might be correct.

:smiley:

That was quick.

I have very little internal mental chatter these days. Which provides me with a more calm and balanced state of mind. It is a very good
place to be both psychologically and philosophically. I put it down to being socially isolated and also no longer having any fear of death
I see myself more as an observer of life rather than a participant in it. And that sense of detachment also adds to my mental relaxation

That the mind can completely detach itself from the workings of the brain, is I think also the reason why the will has ‘power’.

It’s like being able to get outside of the machine so to say, so that you can push the buttons. Naturally the brain having this functionality generally, means it can also push the buttons, which means we have no will in those instants. That doesn’t mean the brain/body has power over the mind, or vice versa.

Thus there is I agree a kind of balance, and silence is like surfing that wave. It puts the will and the anti-will on hold, kind of lets them both run concurrent, which gives you peace of mind as if the struggle is calmed by doing that.

Amorphos

But can the mind REALLY detach itself from the workings of the brain?
:-k I wonder. I have my doubts of this.
It might appear to be this way but then again it might just be that the brain is in better working order (chemicals not creating such a dust bowl) and in better harmony with the mind at this time.

Maybe it’s just the language which is being used here.

If there is not a proper functioning of the brain and mind relationship, what kind of will and power can be achieved?

You have the worst kind of toothache. The very worst kind of toothache - pain which stems from the brain. You can feel that pain coursing through every fiber of your body.
Are you going to tell me, Amorphos, that that brain/body has no effect on the mind?

Perhaps some people are capable of transcending the brain/mind connection. Maybe the buddhist who sets himself on fire and just sits there silently within the flames. But perhaps we simply cannot hear his roar above the roar of the flames.

.

I love the ocean. I love the waves. Silence is more like simply sitting and observing the waves, becoming one with them.
Surfing the waves to me is more in line with active or proactive living.

Arcturus Descending

One is subjective the other is an object, collection of. Apart from that consciousness sleeps while the brain is still working away, it can become completely unconscious while all those 90bil neurons are still functioning and ‘thinking’.
Watch how things die always in an instant, whereas a robot can have half its brain blown out but still be ‘alive’ and thinking with what’s left.

  • I do think there is a relationship - of course there is.

Pain is subjective [an established fact] and can be bridged [that’s why we pass out when it gets too much], but that’s not what I was stating. I was saying that neither parties have power over one another because the consciousness is subjective - detachable, and can exist in any part of the brain or all or it and none of it [when unconscious].

The surfing thing was not so literal - if you re-read it.

endcode_decode talks about the “silent mind.” A mind that is free of thought (the endless chatter in the head).
I don’t know if he or she realizes it or not, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who hasn’t experienced the absence of thought to comprehend a silent mind. Thought cannot even image a silent mind and sees it as being its demise or death. Therefore, it’s going to do everything in its power to convince you of the dangers of such a mind. In turn, you view it as being nonsense, reject it, or ignore it.

Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don’t know how to achieve it. Some will recommend meditation, not realizing what is commonly viewed as meditation is the ILLUSION of meditation. True meditation comes to you without any effort, as opposed to you attempting to achieve it.

Many people don’t realize there are times when they meditate because they don’t pay themselves. On the other hand, if you attentively observe yourself the next time you are totally engrossed in something you love to do, will see the mind is quiet, free of thought. Thus, you may not be aware of the time or your surroundings. The reason being, you are ONE with what you are doing, You may be taking a walk, playing golf, fishing or observing your child. The more you do this, the more you will experience a silent mind. Later on, you will realize you hadn’t had a single thought for most the entire day. If you reflect upon these times you will see you functioned better without thought than with it.

eaglerising

Spoken like a psychologist.

:evilfun:

To understand your post better it might be useful for you to give the psychological definition of mind that you follow.

Do psychologists really have a concept of what time is?

:laughing:

The other thing I would have to know before I could answer you properly is: How do you quantify a single thought?

:-k

I know of a neuroscience study or two that would disagree. And a study of Buddhist monks that disagrees.

:astonished:

Would you say that the mind is subjective and the brain is objective?

:-"

It’s impossible to do anything without thinking, except maybe purely reflexive, unconscious things, like breathing and blinking.
However, there are different forms of thinking, and different degrees.
You can’t completely shut down what could be called linear, or linguistic thinking, and still be conscious at all, however, you can make such thinking more infrequent.
There are other kinds of thinking the brain does, that aren’t easy to articulate, more sensual or emotional, intuitive or concrete kinds.
It is possible to lessen these forms of thinking too, but some form of thinking is always going on, so long as we’re not in deep sleep, or unconscious but not dead.
Even then, there might be some thinking going on, but it’s imperceptible to us, both from an internal, psychological and external, neurological point of view.

Why would anyone want to lessen their thoughts?
Well why would anyone want to lessen anything?
Obviously you can have too much mental exertion, just as you can have too much physical exertion.
It’s important to quieten the mind sometimes, for many reasons.
One is that the quieter the mind is, the more it can hear things besides itself, perceive them.
It can also give your mind a break, a much needed rest.
The more we quieten down, dampen the analytical mind, the more room the intuitive mind has to express itself, and take over.
Sometimes there’s little worth thinking about in your life, little worth analyzing, as things can be riddled with ambiguity, uncertainty, they can’t be solved, or it’s too hard to solve them, or they don’t need to be solved, there’s little value in solving them.
You may be involved in some highly sensuous or physical activity, and your conscious attention needs to be there, or wants to be, engaged with it, rather than over interpreting.
It just needs to be enjoyed, or executed, not thought a lot about.
How much storage capacity do we carry in our brains anyways?
At some point, do we run out of room for some things?
The more we add, the more we might forget other, more important things.
The more we add, the more difficult it might be to add more.

Ultimately it’s the here/now that’s real, our thoughts about the past, or the future are just that, thoughts, at best they are educated guesses about what might’ve happened, or might happen, and at worst, idle speculation, conjecture and fantasy, especially when dealing with vast spatial and temporal distances, althou it can be fun to fantasize sometimes, and can be beneficial to open ourselves to possibilities now and then.
In any case, the past has passed, and the future, as we envision it, might never be.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, it might be worth a thousand thoughts too, and things in themselves, if there are such things, might be worth a thousand pictures, or at least a FMV.
Thought simplifies sensation, and sensation itself is a simplification of things, a scratching of the surface.
Thought compartmentalizes and stores sense and even introspective data of the inner workings of our own consciousness, it then organizes this data across time and space to show causal relations and similarities/differences between things, lumping/splitting, and that is needed in order for us to methodically act, to respond, as opposed to react or reflex.
However, in this compartmentalizing, storing, sterilizing, preserving and jarring of data, some of the richness and vibrancy, as well as some of the joy and beauty of life is lost.
Sensation is infinitely more varied than thought, and in a sense, more real, or pure, unadulterated, unrefined, or distilled.
It’s like when humans come along and try to put everything into boxes, you live in this box or house, you work in that one, we cultivate grapes in this one, olives in that one and so on, we also do this mentally, and some of the mystery and the miraculous, the ineffable relationships between things are damaged in this process, the delicate, intricate and subtle exchanges, the web of life.
We do damage to nature, both when we attempt to overdevelop it, and when we try to overthink it.

It’s a trade off, thinking is not a good, but nor is it an evil.
It’s easy and awfully bipolar, clumsy and simplistic to go from one extreme to the other, from the analytic, obsessive compulsive scientific mind towards say something more akin to a zen, or Pyrrhonian state of consciousness, but much more difficult and necessary to find the ever elusive balance between these two poles.
Humans fancy themselves and the work they do, naturally, both physical and mental, as very important, we want to leave our mark on everything, and then occasionally we become disenchanted with ourselves, disillusioned, and so we go all the way the other way, towards extreme skepticism, cynicism, primitivism and so on, but I think that if we are to increase our odds of surviving and really, truly thriving, we have to always aim nearer to the center…but the center is not easy to find, it is much less obvious than aiming at one or the other extreme.

There’s a time for everything, a time for war, peace, decay, growth, to diverge and converge, and a time to shut up, to stop thinking, and listen to what others, listen to what the birds, the trees, the wind and the rain are saying.
They speak to us very softy, and they can be a guide for our behavior, but it’s all too easy for the signal to get lost among the neural and automotive traffic, noise and pollution.
Intuition and improvisation, going with the flow, thinking on your feet, is not a form of stupidity, it’s another form of intelligence, it’s one modern man is less conscious of, but necessary to tune into for the health and well-being of our lives individually and as a specie, essentially adapting ourselves to nature, rather than the other way round.

There are different forms of awareness and different degrees, and we should not always strive to maximize one and neglect the others, or neglect to give our minds as a whole a break, to meditate, or sit by the shore, watching the waves wobble to and fro.
Of course we can only be so disciplined, mentally and physically, and cause of our collective genetics, culture and habits, there is a strong tendency within many men to overthink many a thing, myself very much included, as you might’ve guessed from reading me, much to our and natures detriment.
But we only need to be so disciplined…timing is everything.

There are also certain drugs we take, like caffeine, or foods we eat, like refined sugar, that tend to overstimulate and excite our minds.
It’s much easier to stop, or slow down the chatter when you eat a more balanced diet, and live more holistically in general.
Excess tends to foster and promote more other forms of excess.

Encode_decode –

I didn’t realize I sounded like a psychologist. What I posted was based up personal experience as well as working with hundreds of people over a 30 year period.

Encode_decode –

The mind is non-physical (consciousness) and the brain is the physical organ in the head.

Encode_decode –

I don’t know. You need to ask them rather than me.

Encode_decode –

What do you mean by “single thought?”
There are two types of thought. The difference between them is their source. The source is either consciousness or the contents of the brain (information, knowledge, and belief).

eaglerising wrote:
Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don’t know how to achieve it.

encode_decode –

.

I was referring to you, not everyone. Some agree and some don’t. Most neuroscientists are unable to see understanding the mind/brain requires both philosophy and science.

Encode_decode –

The brain is neutral, neither subjective nor objective. Thought is subjective and consciousness is both subjective and objective, depending on the level of consciousness.

Gloominary – You respond the way you did because you haven’t experienced an alternative to thought. Prior to experiencing an alternative to thought, I believed as you do about thought and the silent mind. What I previously posted has to be experienced to understand it.

Gloominary - Thank you, that was a great post. I found it to be full of thoughtful content and very stimulating. I think it is quite interesting how you interpret some things. I am going to break my response up into parts because I think there is plenty to talk about here.

I am under the impression that walking is something we do without thinking consciously about it - yet if we so desire we can place a lot of thought into it. Pulmonary and cardiac functions are autonomous - yet somehow connected to our conscious - you can slow your heartbeat and breathing rate just by thinking about it. These things I know from actually trying all three. So yes there is reflexive, unconscious and conscious involvement possible in all three - the reflexive part is a little more primitive.

The Silent Mind is not an unconscious thing - it is what I notice when I stop thinking in English - and use pure thought in place of it. So it is what you would describe as a different degree of thinking. The Silent Mind is like a placeholder for any natural language such as English - the Silent Mind has its own universal natural language. What I have noticed is that it becomes structured via our native language - but even without our native language it is still there doing the same style of thinking. It might take me a few goes to get the explanation across in an understandable way.

I totally agree with you that there are different forms of thinking.

You are correct that you cannot completely shut down what could be called linear thinking - I do think however that linguistic thinking could be separated from the linear. Linguistic thinking is what structures the Silent Mind - so even without a social language a language still exists and this is what I would term the primordial subjective language - different for each individual. I hope that makes sense. Therefore I would be inclined to agree somewhat that linguistic thinking plays a big part in being conscious - particularly the part that makes us self aware but not limited to that. Let me ask a question that is slightly off topic: Do you think animals might have something akin to linguistic thinking? You don’t have to answer this and sorry if it sounds a bit silly but I often think what it must be like for other creatures.

Indeed - I find the emotions to be very difficult to get a grasp on and articulate. Intuition on the other hand I am beginning to get more of a grip on - I will write a thread about it one day when I work out a way to structure the information carefully to avoid ambiguity.
You are quite correct in the second sentence - flattening the emotions out is possible through self discipline for example. The brain is able to process information while we are asleep but the mind is unconscious is what I am assuming you are saying in the second sentence too. What do you mean by the concrete kinds?

I know you are right about this - this goes below the Silent Mind - it is based on a few different styles of encoding. Some neuroscientists are now thinking that even some types of glial cells play a part in the thinking process(trivial to this conversation of course).

Please correct, debate or discuss my interpretation of your post as you see fit Gloominary.

:slight_smile:

Thanks.

I see what you mean, yea there is sort of pure consciousness, like a light we shine on various people, places and things, and even ourselves introspectively, and this light is capable of generating all kinds of thought, some readily translatable into English or other languages, and some not.
When you’re thinking, it’s like the light of consciousness is imposing color, or a grid on whatever you’re perceiving, interpreting data, drawing connections between the objects of sensation and the self, memories, categories.
The light is always there, and I think it’s always thinking on some level, but sometimes it’s dim, sometimes bright, sometimes processing a lot, and sometimes not very much at all, just watching, aware.

The western mind is scarcely aware of this fundamental aspect of consciousness, it tends to equate all consciousness with thinking, processing what we’re aware of, but there is just being aware, with next to no processing.
This is a state of consciousness many eastern meditation practices strive to achieve, where one is simply aware.

I think there’s a time for everything, a time to be aware and think, and a time just to be aware.
In thinking too much about what we’re aware of, we kind of miss out on them, in some respects, perhaps in a fundamental respect, we miss out on things as they are, and as they’re affecting us and everything else around them, when we think about where they’ve been, where they’re headed, what they’re capable of, what they’re like/unlike, labeling them, instead of just really, perceiving them, as they are, here, now.
I’m usually thinking about things myself, and I’d like to experiment more with meditation.
I mean in a sense the ultimate truth is this…moment.

Yes linguistic can be separated from linear.
All thinking heavily bound by language is fundamentally linear I think, some more than others, but not all linear thinking is linguistic, for example, 12 completes this pattern: 3, 6, 9…
That’s an example of numerical linearity, and there are probably other forms of linearity that can’t be so easily translated into words, or numbers, like whenever we have trouble explaining something we know or understand, even the most articulate among us.

Language is limited, and so are numbers, there’s only so much phenomena and patterns they can encompass and encapsulate.
So what is holistic thinking, as opposed to linear?
It might be basically the same thing, drawing connections between things, this is like that, or that follows from this, or this is this, comparing a thing with an abstraction, an orange is like a spheroid, but it’s just holistic thinking is dealing with a lot more variables simultaneously as opposed to sequentially.
Like you have to process a lot of data to get to the position: government is bad, if you’re an anarchist, and as much data as you can account for, demonstrate how you got there, you can’t fathom it all, it’s too much.

Or somebody might put you off, like there’s just something about them you don’t like, that makes you uneasy, but you don’t know what or why.
Your mind is reacting to them on various instinctive and intuitive levels.
Subtle cues and hints he gave made you feel uneasy about him.
It might be the fact that he’s sweating, or the way he carries himself, or a look he gave you, it’s probably all of these things and dozens more, hundreds of data points you synthesized about him simultaneously in an instant, and you couldn’t possibly account for them all, and it would be difficult to explain why any one of them is an indication of something nefarious or sinister.
Such could be called holistic thinking.

2 + 2 = 4, or all bats are mammals is not holistic, althou a ton of data and creativity originally whet into formulating the category bat or mammal, just regurgitating it is very formulaic, simple, straightforward, but the statement 9/11 was an inside job is, because it requires a seemingly endless stream of data points to affirm or refute.
In other words, linear thinking is simple, straightforward, more certain, holistic thinking is intricate, fuzzy, ambiguous thinking.
And yea it’s impossible to turn all of this stuff off, especially for an extended period of time, while still being conscious, but you can reduce them, or reduce some of them, like the verbal stuff, or whatever you’re focused on reducing.

Yes the human mind comes equipped with some categories and mechanisms for making sense of the world around it, definitely, and some of these categories and mechanisms are somewhat malleable, by the thinker of them themselves, independently of their culture and language, but also by culture and language.
And a lot of this stuff is translatable into language or numbers, but some of it is not so easy.
As language becomes more sophisticated, more thoughts can be articulated, but there’s other ways of expressing things besides words, like song and dance, the arts, or facial expressions, gestures, mannerisms, evocation.

No two people share the exact same way of thinking about the world, the same pre-lingual categories and mechanisms, and nobody makes use of the same lingual categories and mechanism the same way either.
All of these things are evolving individually and collectively too, mutating.
And so too with animals, they all possess categories and mechanisms for making sense of the world, all the ones that have a central nervous system at the very least, a brain, and probably many or even all of the ones without a brain, to a lesser extent I would imagine.
We all process and information, not just reflexively act on it, especially those of us with more sophisticated nervous systems and brains.
Animals, particularly the social ones like birds and mammals, but even the more asocial, but still somewhat social ones, have means of expressing their thoughts, feelings, intentions and needs to other animals.

I think I meant like thinking in images and sounds, like the kind of thinking we do when we’re dreaming.
We use images, sounds and symbols to express connections between things, and uncover their essences, and by essences I don’t mean anything spiritual, just like what’s essential about a thing, like the shape of an orange is essentially a sphere, or relatively, there’s no such thing as a perfect sphere in nature, it’s an essence, an idea.

Yea nonverbal, non-numerical thinking, like poetry, like a mountain might be used as a symbol for some great obstacle or challenge to overcome in your life, or a thing of awe, beauty, worship, or both.
The way we tend to think in dreams, dream language, in some cases might have something to do with the primordial, pre-linguistic language or languages we were speaking of.
This language thou is probably not absolute, or universal, thou there’s some commonalities between us, because we’re all human, and certain things are just more easily symbolized by some things than others, but this language just like word language can be somewhat modified, improved upon, improvised.

Does a child’s brain come equipped with the mountain symbol for the aforementioned qualities?
Probably not, but upon seeing a mountain for the first time, his brain might be hardwired to make these connections.
And then some categories like roundness might exist in child’s brain prior to ever hearing the word round, or understanding the word it heard, and then there are many subtle categories and mechanisms we use to think we don’t yet have words for, and may never have.

Gloominary - this is the second part of my response.

Indeed on both counts. I myself was talking about lessening the burden on oneself through understanding ones own needs. Taking some time out to re-prioritize. We are born without our native language so why would we spend so much time using it instead of our subjective silent language. I find people babble on about silly things these days - which is great in the right amount - but I have noticed an excess of small talk. Materialistically people buy so many pointless products because they never thought about the idea of having each of those products in the first place - to be social is not to play “follow the leader” all the time. I am hoping I am making sense.

Indeed - too much mental exertion leads to more problems than we can comprehend at the time of the exertion. Quieting the mind is important to allow the words of others to flow in and to perceiving those words. When we understand those around us generally we can avoid problems with those people - and make them feel truly liked. Finally: yes I agree; a much needed rest.

I find total synergy with the first sentence. The second sentence describes most people I know and care for.

Interesting to think about this - do you think most people might still know how to do this?

We carry more storage capacity than we need for a lifetime of one hundred years. We don’t so much run out of room - some things just become less accessed. Forgetting I believe is more about the vicinity in space/time of the memory - the further away it is the less applicable it becomes - memory to each individual is just a time based hierarchy of analogy and vicinity.

This is true but not for the reasons most people think. The theories are quite different on this topic. One is that plasticity gives way to wisdom. My own theory involves mental cross-talk in a war with wisdom - hopefully that makes sense.

:slight_smile:

A silent or quiet mind is a mind free of conditioning. A mind that is NOT made silent, but is silent because it is free of any distraction or disturbance. It’s a mind that is very still and observant. Such a mind is able to see, observe and understand thought. On the other hand, thought is unaware or oblivious of a silent mind. Thought can neither see nor comprehend the concept of a silent mind. Consequently, thought views the absence of itself as being unconscious or dead. It can do no other, which is one of thoughts limitations.

Thoughts view of the silent mind is like playing peek-a-boo with a baby. It hasn’t developed a conceptual view of itself and its environment. Thus, the baby perceives that you are gone when it covers its eyes so it cannot see you. So, it is thrilled when it removes its hands and sees you. Unlike the baby, you are able to see and understand the difference between the baby’s and your perception. Likewise, the silent mind understands the abilities and limitations of thought. It is able to see and understand what thought cannot.

eaglerising

I am deeply impressed . . . and somewhat humbled . . . I need to understand a few things better so I have broken your post up a little.

I am going to be as objective as I possibly can at this point in time.

:slight_smile:

I get where you are coming from and I can not argue with that - it seems I am going to have to either find or invent a different terminology for the concept I am dealing with.

Again I can not argue with this.

This seems a little ambiguous compared to the previous statements - could you clarify for me?

Would not the function of “see, observe” condition any type of mind? I also need more clarification on the “understand thought” part.

Yes, I can see what you are saying - this will give me something valuable to contemplate.

Acknowledged.

Acknowledged.

A beautiful example that strikes a cord with me.

=D>

How is this possible?

From what you are saying and your definition from what I can tell so far - I totally agree.

I do like your writing style eaglerising. You have a way with words.

:smiley:

eaglerising

I understand what you are saying now.

I realize it. I use to be scared of it.

Yes it does - the other type is more like entrainment.

It seems to me that you have a lot to offer in way of wisdom. In the future I will endeavor to look through any perceived ambiguity I might encounter to get to the bottom of what you are saying.

:smiley:

Encode_Decode - You are to be congratulated for examining my post as opposed to defending your perception. It reveals a lot about you and it is very favorable.

You asked: How is a silent mind able to understand the abilities and limitations of thought? Seeing you asked that question, I will help you answer it by asking, “How is the mind of an adult able to understand what a baby and child cannot?”

Here is another clue. We need something different from ourselves which acts like a mirror to see ourselves. Nothing of itself is able to see and understand itself.

P.S. I neglected to thank you for commenting on my writing style.

Here is something to ponder upon. What if our questions help us see we already understand, but are unaware of it? In other words, the answer to our question is contained within the question.

eaglerising

Thank you for the kind words and your polite response - that reveals a lot about you and it is very favorable.

I will contemplate your question and clue and get back to you.

:smiley:

You are very welcome.

I really like that.