Why there is belief in an afterlife

Arcturus_Descending · August 17, 2017, 1:37pm

“What are man’s truths ultimately? Merely his irrefutable errors.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science

Arcturus_Descending · August 17, 2017, 1:55pm

I do not think that this man is taking the positive position or the negative position. The only position that I see he is taking is the one where he cannot know and that he doesn’t even care about. He is taking the more skeptical/agnostic position.

Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
Nietzsche.

surreptitious57 · August 17, 2017, 2:25pm

Any positive position I hold to be true will be supported by evidence
Any negative position I hold to be true will be supported by lack of evidence for the positive position

For example astral projection : no evidence for it so I take the negative position as the default position

You think this is wrong because you claim to have astrally projected and also because you want it to be true
Unfortunately neither of these constitute evidence so I still maintain the negative position as the default one

You have also suggested that consciousness after brain death is evidence of it surviving after brain function ceases
But I suggest that science does not yet have an explanation for this and that one has to be patient until it finds one

Your positions are undermined by specifically wanting something to be true regardless of what evidence says or even if there is any
Whereas I am much more interested in having positions based upon evidence or no evidence rather than simply what I want to true

WendyDarling · August 17, 2017, 2:44pm

I gave you the anecdotal evidence based on medical case studies of establishing typical statistical references of near death experiences, but your liberal mind (a mind detached from reality) refuses to accept that as any form of evidence.

surreptitious57 · August 17, 2017, 2:53pm

Do you not remember me saying that in science there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence
Do you not remember me saying personal testimony that cannot be verified is not evidence

WendyDarling · August 17, 2017, 3:03pm

If Wiki lies, tell me. If not stop with your denial of the reality that is before your eyes in the above quote.

surreptitious57 · August 17, 2017, 3:23pm

That definition is a bit loose especially the second part so it needs tightening up

Evidence for astral projection most definitely does not exist because it is purely anecdotal
Evidence for consciousness surviving brain death does exist but the reason is not yet known

WendyDarling · August 17, 2017, 3:53pm

The studies tie surviving death and what happened during together. Remember the brain’s are not supposed to be functioning after a certain amount of time but they do and the people have similar stories of what went on in their minds, which is more than just your brain.

surreptitious57 · August 17, 2017, 4:44pm

I would like to learn more about this as I think it is a very fascinating subject indeed
But in the meantime I shall still use the definition of mind as a function of the brain
I know you will disagree but as we no longer agree on any thing it is no real surprise

A_Shieldmaiden · August 18, 2017, 1:07am

Wendy wrote:

Where are the Satanic scriptures that refer to astral projection? As far as I can tell, Christians consider voluntary astral projections occult/witchcraft/sorcery…blah, blah, blah. However, involuntary astral projections such as Near Death Experiences are completely acceptable.

Can you list these Satanic references in the scriptures?
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians5:14-26 (Ignore the spelling errors )

What is the proper Biblical definition of witchcraft?

The aspects that I highlighted in red may have a two-fold purpose: First, behave as the angel, Jesus, in the flesh, second, behave as the angel, Jesus, in the spirit. Astral projecting properly is behaving as Jesus in the spirit.

What about near death experiences…satanic practices of witchcraft and sorcery?

This astral projection phenomena is addressed in all religions because it actually occurs in reality. Instead of looking at any of the other larger, more accepted religions, of course you would pull upon an obscure new age religion and try to make a joke of ancient religions (20,000 BC.) being new age.

Spiritualism is the belief that the spirits of the dead have both the ability and the inclination to communicate with the living. The afterlife, or the “spirit world”, is seen by spiritualists, not as a static place, but as one in which spirits continue to evolve.

After some research I am of the opinion that what you are speaking about, is the practice of Spiritual Formation, which is a system of practices that were originally invented by Ignatius Loyola the founder of the Jesuits.

One key element of spiritual formation is called “contemplative spirituality.” Other related terms include “contemplative prayer,” or “centering prayer.” These are all names for essentially the same thing. This is nothing more than a mixture of what New Age pagan practitioners of meditation and Roman Catholic monks have taught for centuries.

Here is what Thomas Keating, a Roman Catholic monk, has this to say about contemplative prayer, otherwise known as centering prayer:

Spiritual disciplines, both East and West, are based on the hy- pothesis that there is something that we can do to enter upon the journey to divine union once we have been touched by the realization that such a state exists. Centering prayer is a disci- pline designed to reduce obstacles… choose a sacred word [to repeat]… Twenty to thirty minutes is the minimum amount of time necessary for most people to establish interior silence.12

In other words, you repeat religious or Biblical words (it doesn’t really matter which ones) in order to “center” your thoughts until you feel like you have unity with God.

Jesus specifically mentioned repetition as vain and useless. He said “but when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking” (Matthew 6:7).

Contemplative prayer is mystical from its core, so it is fruitless from my point of view to persuade you otherwise.

With regard to your questions above. Read the Scriptures the answers are all there.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:13

WendyDarling · August 18, 2017, 4:03am

SM,
It’s rather annoying that you beckon emphatically to have your questions answered but you do not return the courteousness, are you sure that you are not an American liberal leftist? Well if you ever decide to become a forthright Christian, let me know, where questions and their answers are exchanged rather than one-directional.

A_Shieldmaiden · August 18, 2017, 5:00am

I answered your questions.

It is all there in the Scriptures.

I believe that you need to check everything out for yourself. Don’t just believe what someone else tells you. If it is something from the Bible go look it up for yourself.

WendyDarling · August 18, 2017, 5:13am

You did not answer my questions based on your beliefs, what scriptures? Go reread what I asked from you.

(Liberals get their dishonesty and their disingenuous ways from Christians I believe.)

A_Shieldmaiden · August 18, 2017, 7:04am

Wendy wrote:

Of course you do.

WendyDarling · August 18, 2017, 12:27pm

If you paid one wit of attention, you’d know that your sarcastic remark is not accurate and your behavior is not honest.

Fixed_Cross · August 18, 2017, 4:22pm

In Europe and America, a big change came with the “Death of God”.
Fear of Dantes hell subsided, and people were no longer able to care as much about doing the right, vs the wrong thing.
But the idea of an afterlife that rewards stayed attractive to them.
So hell was abandoned, and people began investing heaven, make it more interesting, attractive.
Then, when heaven was made into a modern type paradise (I live on, my soul lives on) people started to imagine the things they would have to do to get there - – oh, lo! It turned out to be exactly those things that they were ready doing.

This transformed the afterlife form a stimulus to discipline oneself to a certain standard (in ancient days, heroism, in Christian days, meekness) to something that is just there to take away the annoying thought that ones ego will at one point wither and die, and allows the ego to imagine itself important, the source of all things (the spark of god) and capable of transcending death by lucid dreaming. Its only effect is radically increasing the human capacity for egoism and bigotry.

Fixed_Cross · August 18, 2017, 4:29pm

Back to the original notion of the afterlife, the fruit of ones actions in the world. Here is a very good short paper on the subject:
ocw.mit.edu/courses/history/21h … rev_dn.pdf

I do believe that this is the only afterlife that a sane human would be considering.

In case someone woud crave being able to look toward a personal afterlife, where the ego gets to continue its little games, where the experience of the self can continue without all the Earthly conditions that made it, it will always resemble a teenage girls bedroom - colourful, emotional, empty of ideas of responsibility - an instrument to self-pleasing.

Fixed_Cross · August 18, 2017, 4:43pm

In as far as the continuation of the fruits of our actions pertains to us personally, we have the notion of karma.
Throughout all cultures that influenced the west, it has been the planet Saturn that has been attributed the function of karmic receptor and distributor.

Saturn, the horned one, the dweller on the threshold, the judge of what lives on and what must be ground back to nothingness - this planet was given the name of The Devil.

In the 20th century there was a German mystic who went very far in exploring this concept called Rudolph Steiner.
I am just posting this as an interesting facet of the pervasive belief in life after death.

OLD SATURN

True-believing Waldorf school teachers think that they and their students used to live “on Saturn” — or, more exactly, they and their students lived through the Old Saturn stage of evolution. That’s what their mentor, Rudolf Steiner, taught.

Here’s the story. The Creation occurred, in some fashion, as we have seen. [See the section titled “Origins”, above.] It produced a vague, ethereal solar system in which everything was intermingled — everything that would eventually separate out as individual entities and objects was, at that stage, united as a single insubstantial, semi-spiritual mass. This first phase of our evolution (which was also the first stage of the evolution of our entire solar system) is called Old Saturn. The solar system was then, for the first time, physically manifest, but only in a very preliminary way. It was suffused, in a sense, by the forces of Saturn, as the gods poured out their benevolence to prod us into existence.

Steiner taught that the solar system blinks in and out of existence, manifesting and then re-manifesting in successive states, beginning in a delicate, virtually impalpable state and then becoming progressively denser, more physical, and more individualized in later manifestations. The first state, the first blink, was Old Saturn, which would be followed by a second blink called Old Moon, then a third called Old Sun, and then our current blink — the phase of evolution in which we currently exist — called Present Earth. Following Present Earth, we will proceed to additional states (blinks), but the movement toward physicality will be reversed; we will become more spiritualized again, in stages. We are currently about as densely physical as we can be — meaning we are about as far removed from the spirit realm as we would ever want to be. In our future evolution — the states will be Future Jupiter, Future Venus, and Future Venus — we will rise again toward spirituality, but in far higher, more perfect forms than in our distant past. [See, e.g., “Matters of Form”.]

Here are the stages of our evolution, as generally described by Steiner. Starting with OId Saturn, we gradually descend to Present Earth, then we gradually will ascend to Future Vulcan:

◊ 1. Old Saturn ◊ ◊ 7. Future Vulcan ◊

◊ 2. Old Sun ◊ ◊ 6. Future Venus ◊

◊ 3. Old Moon ◊ ◊ 5. Future Jupiter ◊

◊ 4. Present Earth ◊…

The planets that we see in the sky now (Saturn and the rest) should not be confused with the phases of evolution that bear the same or similar names (Old Saturn and the rest). Still, the planets and the phases are related. The Saturn that we see overhead is a physical planet; it exists here and now, in the present solar system (i.e., it exists during Present Earth). It is a sort of remnant or miniature reincarnation of Old Saturn, which was an evolutionary state long, long ago. (Steiner’s use of language is often a problem. He wrote and spoke as a mystic, using mystical — and, one might suspect, intentionally mystifying — terminology. Thus, he often referred to Old Saturn, Old Moon, etc., as “planets,” and he sometimes called them Saturn, Moon, etc., and he even sometimes spoke of life “on” those “planets” when he meant life during those periods… Keeping your bearings as you read Steiner can be a challenge. But buck up. It can be done.)

OK. Back to Old Saturn, our first stage of evolution. Old Saturn was a phase where everything was initially quite undifferentiated, being essentially just warmth. Steiner considered warmth to be a sort of physical substance, but he stressed that “warmth” during Old Saturn was different from “warmth” as we know it now. The “warmth” of Old Saturn was the essence of our being, it was what we were made of. Put it this way: During Old Saturn, we were brought into semi-separate, semi-physical, lukewarm existence in the form of “eggs of warmth.” We got that way under the benign authority of gods of various ranks (Dominions, Mights, and so on). These gods were evolving, like us, only they were much farther along than us, and they elevated themselves further by helping us.

The gods called Spirits of Personality (or Archai or Zeitgeists) were especially important in getting us going during or “on” Old Saturn:

[Us, as Eggs]

“What is the power that rules in the Spirits of Personality [gods three evolutionary levels higher than humanity] on ancient Saturn [i.e., during Old Saturn]? It is no other than that which we know in modern man as the power of thought. For in reality, the Spirits of Personality did nothing else on ancient Saturn but exercise the power of their thoughts … [T]he Spirits of Personality were powerful magicians. They formed those eggs of warmth [i.e., us] on Saturn by the force of their thoughts … It is perfectly comprehensible that an entity who is really human should take on form from his surroundings (for the eggs that were formed there were constructed out of the surroundings [i.e., substance] of Saturn) and those eggs were bewitched, or chained to a further existence [i.e., the eggs became destined to continue their existence in future, higher incarnations].” — Rudolf Steiner, THE SPIRITUAL HIERARCHIES (Anthroposophical Publishing Co., 1928), lecture 4, GA 110.

The Spirits of Personality advanced their own evolution by ministering to us during Old Saturn — selflessness and kindness always produce spiritual rewards. “On” Saturn, we were not yet human, by a long stretch of the imagination. In fact, the term “human” can be quite confusing. According to Steiner, being human is not a matter of lineage or species; it is a matter of spiritual evolution — beings at a certain stage of their development are “human.” Generally, beings become human when they reach the fourth stage of their evolution. [See the entry for “human stage of evolution” in the Brief Waldorf / Steiner Encyclopedia.] Thus, for instance, the gods called Spirits of Personality began their own evolution three incarnations prior to Old Saturn. That incarnation, of course, occurred outside our solar system, which first came into existence during Old Saturn. So, the Spirits of Personality began evolving in a different solar system from ours, in a time before any time we have known. By the time we first came into existence, the Spirits of Personality were in the fourth phase of their own evolution — so they were “human” during Old Saturn. (Besides being “human,” they were also gods, which is a little confusing. But so goes Anthroposophical doctrine.) We ourselves, being mere eggs of warmth during Old Saturn, would not become “human” until our own fourth phase of evolution — Present Earth. The whole point of evolution, according to Steiner, is to evolve to higher and higher states, attaining higher and higher forms of consciousness.

Our consciousness “on” Saturn was extremely dull, whereas the various gods above us possessed higher forms of consciousness (the higher a god’s rank, the higher that god’s consciousness). On or during Old Saturn, we were essentially comatose:

[Us, Awfully Dim] (The following is difficult. I will try to help via footnotes.)

“The human being himself can make no use of his luminosity on Saturn. [1] The luminosity of his sensory germs could not express anything in itself, but through it other more exalted beings are given the possibility to reveal themselves to the life of Saturn. [2] … These are exalted beings … [T]hey now radiate something of their nature out of ‘free will.’ [3] … These Sons of Twilight develop in the ancestor of man a kind of understanding, of which however, in his dull consciousness, he himself cannot yet make use. [4] … Man has now reached the point where he can work unconsciously on his own material body. [5] Through his activity in the utter dullness of Saturn existence, man produces the first germinal predisposition to the true ‘spirit man.’” [6] — Rudolf Steiner, COSMIC MEMORY (Rudolf Steiner Publications, 1959 ), chapter 14, GA 11.

[1] By “the human being,” Steiner means us (although we were not yet human). We had a sort of potential spiritual/mental light within ourselves, but we couldn’t make use of it “on Saturn.” We were too unevolved. (Don’t be thrown by Steiner’s use of the present tense. He often did this, perhaps for narrative effect. He was speaking of things long, long ago.)

[2] We had seeds (“germs”) of illumination within us, which eventually would enable us to perceive and affect phenomena outside ourselves. But “on” Saturn, we couldn’t use these seeds. However, our seeds enabled higher beings (gods) to reveal themselves — and to act — within the developing life of Old Saturn.

[3] The gods (“exalted beings”) helping us did it by their own free choice, a voluntary act of benevolence that elevated them further in their own spiritual evolution. They imparted some of their divine essence to Old Saturn.

[4] Among our helpers were “Sons of Twilight” — gods one rank above us. They “developed” a “kind of understanding” within us, i.e., they helped us, the eggs of warmth, to have an early sort of comprehension. (Steiner here refers to us as the ancestors of men — he means us as we were during Old Saturn, when we were still far from becoming human. The eggs of warmth (us), having been enchanted, would reincarnate as higher beings during Old Sun, and higher yet during Old Moon, and even higher yet during Present Earth — when they would become us as we know ourselves now, as human beings.) The understanding the Sons of Twilight gave us was important — it was our first stage of consciousness — but it was so low and dull that we could make no use of it during Old Saturn.

[5] Despite being so dim, we could start, unconsciously, developing our physical bodies. (“Physical” is another relative term, however. We would not develop physical bodies as we now know them until Present Earth.)

[6] Dimly, dimly, we started to evolve toward our own true spiritual identity, although attaining that identity was still far, far off. All we could work up, on Saturn, was a germ of a predisposition toward attaining our eventual ‘spirit.’ (“Spirit man” has a specific meaning in Theosophy and, by extension, Anthroposophy: It is atma, which can be considered the god within.)

So, we started our journey. Things went along, and time as we know it (more or less) began: The solar clock started to tick, as it were. Also, Saturn rotated — which caused separations, which would ultimately create openings for Lucifer and Ahriman to get at us. So, there was trouble ahead.

When things during Old Saturn went as far toward materialization as possible under the prevailing conditions of dimness, everything reversed course, disintegrated, and became wholly nonphysical again. Then, after everything had disappeared, there was a period of rest called a pralaya. (Like much of the terminology used by Theosophists and Steiner, “pralaya” is a Hindu term — it means, approximately, melting away):

[Time Out]

“No condition of Pralaya could have arisen for Saturn through [the actions of] the Spirits of Personality alone. Higher spirits [i.e., higher gods] had to come into action in order to dissolve Saturn so that a Pralaya, or state of transition, of disappearance and of sleep might take place. Higher spirits, the Thrones [gods seven levels above us]…had to dissolve all this, so that, as the life of Saturn reached its end, the following process was carried out. The Spirits of Personality had attained self-consciousness [i.e., they had become “human”], had breathed in again a part of the warmth, had realised the Self as the centre of their being [i.e., they gained their spiritual egos], and left behind them a lower kingdom [i.e., they evolved higher, leaving behind their previously lowest layers]. Now entered the kingdom of the Thrones and dissolved that which had been left behind, and Saturn entered into a sort of planetary night.” — Rudolf Steiner, THE SPIRITUAL HIERARCHIES (Anthroposophical Publishing Co., 1928), lecture 3, GA 110.

So, we lapsed into sleep and absence, along with all of the solar system. The Thrones (aka Spirits of Will) kindly made this possible. The Spirits of Personality, having been very kind to us in their own special way, graduated to the next stage of their own evolution.

I will now take a pralaya myself. The next episode or two of Steiner Static will go elsewhere. But before long I’ll swing back to Steiner’s cosmic history, and I’ll tell you about life “on” Old Sun.

In leaving, I’d just ask you to meditate on this: Waldorf students are taught by people who think they see good, solid sense in Rudolf Steiner’s teachings. They think that the history we are reviewing is the true story of our existence. What do you think? `

((( sites.google.com/site/waldorfwatch/ )))

Fixed_Cross · August 18, 2017, 10:18pm

Ideologies of reward without sacrifice are of course ignoble.
Saturn is the planet associated with death, harvest, natural cycles, hardship, bare bones necessity, learning from experience.
We can easily associate it with karma.

Jupiter is the planet associated with ideology, fanaticism, luck, self-exaggeration, prophecy and priesthood.
We can associate it with al the other ideas about afterlife. Both the warlike forward striving sacrificial will of heroes and the dreamlike imagination of the new age explorer.

Karma is a legislative idea, it commands an awareness of the consequences of ones action on the greater world.
Regardless of its physical truthfulness, it is a powerful idea that can hone the half beast that any human is born as into a cultivated entity.

Fixed_Cross · August 18, 2017, 10:45pm

I just found a video locked on my account that I never published but which is really good, comparatively, compared to my videos in general.
I post it here and not in The Philosophers because half way I actually explain the idea much more lucidly than I do in the OP.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXxgGVxMu3A[/youtube]