Patriotism

The flag and anthem doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone else, nor will it ever, nor should you pretend or assume that what they are doing is “disrespect towards the flag or anthem” it is a protest towards a certain situation.
You’re misinterpreting intent with your meaning of their act.

No, the flag was a military symbol of our victory and always has been, so was the national anthem which describes our military victory. Patriotism starts with the military and if you have flowery sentiments in your head than you can call it whatever you want, but the flag and anthem have to do with war fought by our military yesterday and today.

The flag is a symbol of more than our victory, it is a symbol of everything the nation is. The national anthem is a symbol too of that. It is more than what you want it to be confined to, for many people. Symbols for you are not the same for everyone else and vice versa, they are all interpreted and conceptualized differently by each individual.

Like I said, it stood and stands for the military and their actions to protect this country. Too bad they have to protect cretins who spit on their efforts.

This :

and this :

So which is it?

“a protest towards a certain situation”

Or

‘a protest towards everything the nation is’

IOW, is it confined to just what you want it confined to? Or is it impossible to confine it in that limited way?

My interpretation of the symbol is inclusive of hers. Her’s is excluding. But that doesn’t mean its not a symbol of what I said, for others.

My point is that when she sees it in terms of an insult to the military, you’re saying it’s not so confined, but at at the same time you view it as a confined protest against racism.

IOW, you seem to be allowing yourself to control the scope of the protest and the symbols and denying her the same sort of control.

ww & phyllo,

You guys have it right. Right wing talking points don’t have to have any logic or factual info behind them. If someone says shit is flower petals, then a train car load of shit is flowers. Pointing out that the smell isn’t exactly perfume won’t change their mind. It’s flowers.

My points are factual. The flag was used by the military during combat to claim our countries sovereignty and the anthem describes the military battle in which the flag was used.

Liberals can say they represent whatever convoluted ideas that they want to tie them too, but they represent our patriots who die in battle.

The simple fact is that it’s impossible to pin down what specifically one is protesting or what specifically one is supporting when kneeling or standing for the anthem. Therefore, it amounts to nothing but pointless bickering. :-"

It amounts to stupid liberal beliefs that are made in their minds and not in reality.

Yes they do. BUT that is only part of the flag and anthem symbolism. Both represent the American ideals and when those ideals are besmirched by racism, then calling it out is an act of true patriotism. Dissing those who point this out is, shall I coin a phrase?, unpatriotic. It is allowing our precious symbols to represent the antithesis of what they are supposed to stand for.

Colin made the symbol of kneeling during the national anthem. He defined what he meant by his symbol. Nobody else can define what he meant, by what he meant.

Only true in your alternate reality… :-"

You can’t help yourself, can you? You have to take what represents war fought and died for and make it about a misinformed liberal agenda?

WW_III_ANGRY, I think that I did misunderstand you. It seems you have a certain special care for people from your country because they are from your country, i.e. that the country actually does something in the moral calculus independent of the values or the practical consideration. I think that’s a sufficient condition for something to be ‘patriotism’.

But I don’t get the appeal. In many places, we live and work with people who are not our fellow countrymen. In many places, ones neighbors and coworkers, the people who one passed on the road, and the people whose combined welfare defines the welfare of ones society, are not citizens, are not from or permanently residing in ones country. Easy cases for this are countries in the EU that allow more-or-less free movement, so that people actually live their lives on both sides of a border. Some places in the US have historically had this, e.g. the US-Canada border was long under patrolled as a policy. But even in major cities, places like DC and New York, a significant portion of the community at any given moment are composed of immigrants, visitors, tourists, travelers from all over the world. Surely their well being is important to community welfare, and yet by an accident of birth they don’t get the same moral consideration? I find that odd.

Another intuition pump on this is at the margins of citizenship. Look at how Trump is responding to Puerto Rico. The humanitarian disaster there is affecting millions of US citizens, but it doesn’t seem Trump or his base see it that way. Surely many don’t realize that people born in Puerto Rico are US citizens, but even the ones that do just don’t consider them full and equal citizens. Then think of how your own intuitions about their moral worth would change if Puerto Rico were made a full state, or spun off as an independent nation. It just seems weird to give any moral weight to such changes, when the people don’t change, the society doesn’t change. The change could be entirely on paper, and patriotism would seem to demand giving it some metaphysical status that is undeserved.

I know, I’m being naive, and that there’s a real meaning in intersubjective realities like ‘citizenship’ and ‘country’, but I find them poorly supported, and would prefer to de-emphasize them relative to more objective criteria like mutually beneficial cooperation, shared humanity, and the common predicament of sentient life.

I would never discount what our military has done for all of us. But a misinformed liberal agenda? What are you talking about? I spoke to all the other things that make us Americans and that the symbols reflect those values. That is misinformed?

Consider your words. Start making sense… please?

I share a physical reality, made of the blood and sweat of actual people and objects such as a national flag that represent their efforts to accomplish specific goals, like military action used to claim our lands as sovereign from Britain and all threats, with real patriotism where people put their money where their mouths are, not some idealistic fantasy world of how one ought to live that steals from other humans, symbols, and events, namely the military, the flag and anthem, and deaths in battle, to gain it’s validity. Liberals are always misappropriating people, symbols, and objects for ulterior causes trying to give their bullshit causes legitimacy.

Well, there’s prioritization.

1)My Family - wife/kids (deepest of love, self sacrifice if needed)
2)Me
3)my other family (sisters brothers)
3)Friends/coworkers/acquaintances - people I interact with on a personal level
4)Neighbors around my home
5)Town/County/State/general vicinity/Country
6)World - Unconditional love

I don’t have a problem with people who come here who want to live with us, and their extent of their struggles. Globally, I am a humanist. That doesn’t mean I am not a patriot either, but there is a direct relationship to who I care about to what extent and their impact on my priorities. That’s not to say patriotism means that I want others to fail so that we can exceed.

But if I were president, of course, my priorities would be all citizens.

Wendy, you have decided that only military connections can represent the flag and anthem. Such a narrow viewpoint. But it makes it easy to define all those “others” doesn’t it? Sail on. I’ve nothing further to discuss with you. Whatever you say, have it your way.