Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?
Christian dogma says that Adam and Eve were murdered by neglect when God locked away the tree of life.
Eve was deceived by Satan and the talking serpent that God put in Eden. This caused the Original Sin concept that Christianity calls a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.
Was gaining an education and a moral sense, which basically is what gaining knowledge is, justifiable to you?
Can you see yourself punishing your children for gaining an education and a moral sense the way God is punishing Adam and Eve to this day?
Regards
DL
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 19, 2018, 3:40pm
2
News flash : Adam and Eve are dead.
Therefore, they are not being punished.
Christian dogma says they are roasting in hell.
Regards.
DL
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 19, 2018, 4:04pm
6
South Park is the authority on Christian dogma. I did not know that.
You learn something new every day.
Do you see Christian dogma being otherwise than what is shown?
If so, lay it out for us.
Regards
DL
Dan1
(Dan~)
May 19, 2018, 10:15pm
8
In christianity both punishment and reward are extremes.
Eternal life with anything you could want forever is heaven to them.
Hell is eternally subject to what we don’t want.
Eternal punishment but also eternal reward.
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 12:44pm
9
Okay, in the spirit of “gaining an education” and “gaining knowledge”:
Fundamentalist Protestants believe that the dead remain dead until the Last Judgement. That hasn’t happened, therefore Adam and Eve are not being punished.
Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that, after the Resurrection, Jesus went to hell and released Adam and Eve and they ascended to heaven. Although not quite saints, they are ‘almost’ saints. Their Feast Day is December 24.
If all hell is is pure punishment, which it is, without purpose, do you not think that only an evil and twited AGod would punish without a purpose?
Regards
DL
phyllo:
Okay, in the spirit of “gaining an education” and “gaining knowledge”:
Fundamentalist Protestants believe that the dead remain dead until the Last Judgement. That hasn’t happened, therefore Adam and Eve are not being punished.
Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that, after the Resurrection, Jesus went to hell and released Adam and Eve and they ascended to heaven. Although not quite saints, they are ‘almost’ saints. Their Feast Day is December 24.
You have to ignore a lot of gnashing of teeth type scriptures to believe as you do.
Most fundamentalists believe in a Satan so I cannot agree with your views as they tend not to believe the way Jews do.
As to Catholics. I came out of that tradition and do not believe recall A & E ever being released and if what you said was true, they would not have been in hell but in the grave to begin with.
I do not know where you want to go from here.
Regards
DL
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 5:08pm
12
Then show the scripture that says Adam and Eve are in hell.
It has nothing to do with Satan. It’s about what they think the Bible says happens after a person is dead. And it’s not “my view”.
For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Adam and Eve were in hell until Jesus released them. (Admittedly they are in their graves in some depictions of the event. In either case, they are not being punished now.)
Though the couple are remembered most for their sin, many icons of the Resurrection depict Christ raising Adam and Eve out of their tombs. In many icons of the All Saints type, they are depicted as worshiping at the throne of God, and the traditional nimbus (halo), signifying holiness, is around each of their heads. There are also many liturgical references to Christ’s redemption of “the first-created.” Therefore, the Church’s tradition could be taken literally to indicate that they are among the saved.
orthodoxwiki.org/Adam_and_Eve
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a … 22a5p1.htm
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 5:28pm
13
I provided you with the answer to your question, so I guess the thread is finished.
“Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?”
They are not being punished.
phyllo:
Then show the scripture that says Adam and Eve are in hell.
It has nothing to do with Satan. It’s about what they think the Bible says happens after a person is dead. And it’s not “my view”.
For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Adam and Eve were in hell until Jesus released them. (Admittedly they are in their graves in some depictions of the event. In either case, they are not being punished now.)
Though the couple are remembered most for their sin, many icons of the Resurrection depict Christ raising Adam and Eve out of their tombs. In many icons of the All Saints type, they are depicted as worshiping at the throne of God, and the traditional nimbus (halo), signifying holiness, is around each of their heads. There are also many liturgical references to Christ’s redemption of “the first-created.” Therefore, the Church’s tradition could be taken literally to indicate that they are among the saved.
orthodoxwiki.org/Adam_and_Eve
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a … 22a5p1.htm
The Vatican??
The first thing the lying clergy will tell you about God is that he is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways.
Then they start reaming of the many things they fathom of the unfathomable, know of the unknowable and how they have unravelled his mysterious ways.
That indicates that they are obviously lying. Right?
The Catholics also use baptism to cleans our dirty and condemned baby souls and keep them out of hell. Adam and Eve were never baptised.
Psalm 51:5 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
Regards
DL
phyllo:
I provided you with the answer to your question, so I guess the thread is finished.
“Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?”
They are not being punished.
Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?
Regards
DL
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 8:30pm
16
Yeah, the Vatican - the source of Catholic dogma.
Catholicism - the largest Christian sect, consisting of half of all Christians.
That’s not what the Catholic Church says. It’s there in the Catechism :
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a … p1s1c1.htm
Jesus took them out of hell. I already explained that.
phyllo:
Yeah, the Vatican - the source of Catholic dogma.
Catholicism - the largest Christian sect, consisting of half of all Christians.
That’s not what the Catholic Church says. It’s there in the Catechism :
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a … p1s1c1.htm
Jesus took them out of hell. I already explained that.
My question was on justice of one issue. I do not plan to jook at all the supernatural foolishness withing the Christian doctrine.
Do you think their punishment was justified in the first place?
Regards
DL
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 8:39pm
18
God told them not to eat that fucking fruit. They disobeyed and they got punished. Actions have consequences. End of lesson.
It’s a creation story. I don’t obsess over it.
phyllo
(phyllo)
May 20, 2018, 8:43pm
19
If you’re going to discuss it then at least use correct Christian dogma.
So you think a child disobeying and eating a fruit deserves death and hell for it.
Wow.
Are you a parent?
I am not obsessed with this story but do you not recognize that the Eden story has been used to discriminate against women without a just cause from it’s inception?
Regards
DL