Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

heaven represents total pleasure hell represents abscence of pleasure.

if you obey the rules you are promised with heaven. if you disobey the rules you are promised with hell.

this is viewed as moral in the sense that we derive our morals from pleasure and pain. And in this self-referntial context, disobedience would cause pain to self, therefore disobedience in of itself is immoral.

This circular reasoning causes Christians to dogmatically obey.

Indeed.

While Christians ignore that purposeless torture in hell would only be practiced by an insane God.

Only morally corrupted Christians and Muslims will follow such a vile God.

Regards
DL

I wonder how that Story would have been written if it had been told/written after we attained to all of the knowledge about evolution, science, ad continuum ~~ ALL OF IT?

Perhaps it would have not been told at all.

It is just myth, human infallible men trying to make sense of things as they were back then. Perhaps they did the best job they could with what they had to work with.

You might as well discuss Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf.

??

Has Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf created a religion that has victimized so many women and gays with a homophobic and misogynous ways?

Has Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf use Inquisitions and Jihads against humanity?

For evil to grow, all good people need to is ignore the evils of religions and see those vile and damaging stories as just a version of Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf.

Do you really see a moral equivalence in the two myths?

Regards
DL

Karpel Tunnel,

What do you see as the real weak area?

Greatest I am

The point that I was trying to make is that much of it is myth and fantasy just as many stories are written, from one’s imagination albeit there is also much history there.
Do you ever stop to consider and mention the good things about the bible, the beautiful pearls of wisdom there?

Have you ever stopped to consider that humanity (at least much of humanity) has reached more of an enlightened stage than there was back then? When you consider these things, do you ever have THAT in mind?

No, but people who are the despots and the puppeteers have a need to have things their way, their beliefs practiced their way, their thinking and ideas their way, are the real big bad wolves.

I love wolves and I am sorry wolves that I maligned you in such a way. :evilfun:

This is what you do not see at least I think you do. You take everything in the bible so literally and you do not take into account the culture and beliefs of that time.

For evil to grow all people ALSO need to do is to not see the good which comes from some religions. There is always another aspect of things - the light and the dark, the good and the evil, the hot and the cold, the thinking and the unthinking.
You are actually throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Unless you can also see the good, you may also be adding to the corruption of a religion.

Religion is composed of PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS. Perhaps if you read the NT you can see that there is much good in the words of Christ whether or not he existed is another thing.

It is not necessarily a bad thing ~~ it is probably a good thing to point out the negative unenlightened areas of the bible like anti-semitism, hatred and bashing of gays, incest, et cetera, but if you do not see and also point out the good parts, you lose your credibility. If you cannot understand that many if not most people back then were ignorant meaning never having learned about something in the first place, how can come to the truth about things.

You cannot just show one side of something without the other and get at the truth, can you?

Original Sin in general as a concept. Apart from taking the story literally and then having Adam and Eve’s kids finding wives, which is a recipe for a mindfuck. I mean who did they marry? But the idea of original sin is horrendous.

Jews know this but somehow the Christians missed it.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Christians are so keen to ride their scapegoat Jesus into heaven that they forget that Jesus, a Jewish Rabbi, would tell them that they are choosing Satan’s ways and not his.

Regards
DL

I show where I stand and position and leave it to dissenters to show theirs.

Like here, if asked, I show the good I see as well as the evil, and show my verdict.

You are quite slow to show your verdict and thus promote the immorality of the religions you do not condemn.

As Jesus said, be hot or cold. Get off the fence.

Regards
DL

They may not have the concept formally, but they, like nearly everyone else confuse guilt with love and self-hatred with some positive form of humility. And let’s not forget shame.
There are a lot of ways to undermine someone and Judaism competes quite well the Christianity.

I do not see Jews competing with Christianity. They mostly ignore Christians from what I can see. That or try to show Christians where they went wrong but most Christians ignore this as if they have forgotten where Christianity plagiarized it’s religion from.

The Abrahamic cults, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, do not respect each others contradicting views.

Gnostic Christians like me dislike their ideologies and say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian and we do not mind arguing our case. Those who can discern a good ideology from a poor one will agree. That is why they use Inquisitions and Jihad to grow while Gnostic Christians just use sound and moral arguments. They could not best us and resorted to murdering us.

Regards
DL

Greatest I Am,

I am going to whittle this down quite a bit here.

Let us leave God out of this …or not.

Is there any way in which you can look at the above and learn from it, derive any truth or wisdom at all from it?

Yes.

If I did not already, I would not use the quote.

There is some cases where the children will suffer from their parents actions, but to legislate or demand that suffering is immoral.

Regards
DL

Greatest I Am,

I show where I stand and position and leave it to dissenters to show theirs.

Can you please remind me of the good which you see. Point it out because I am missing it.

Yes perhaps I am. How can there even be a verdict when the waters are so muddied by misunderstandings, biases, so much tunnel vision. For crying out loud, we blame a God for things which we ourselves have done and are doing. The Bible is, erroneously, to many more or less the exact inspiration and voice of God. We believe this instead of coming to realize that it is no more nor less the voices of those who lived back then and interpreted their world according to their beliefs and cultures. If you are going to condemn and hand down a verdict, hand it down on individuals who deserve it ~~ those who have not learned anything from the past and who insist on following the same patterns antiquated patterns because it suits their desires and purpose.

You talk about cherry picking. It seems to me that this is what you are doing.
Things are not so black and white and I really do not like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So you agree with Christ about that? Is hot or cold like black and white? Are there never any gray areas albeit there are times when one cannot be on the fence.

Do you actually believe that a God is responsible for all of the wrongs in this world?

Karpel Tunnel wrote:

In Genesis 5 it tells you Adam and Eve not only had Cain and Abel and Seth, it says they had other sons and daughters. Adam married his sister, basically, they both had the same Creator. They married their sisters. You have to keep reading to find out where they came from. He took one of his sisters with him. Abraham married his half sister, Sara.

It is never stated that these were the wives or if the timing is right. But let’s say it is…
then it is incest.
One can then say that only later was incest labelled bad by God.
But then this means that morals are arbritrary.
Incest is OK for a while, then not OK.
Cause I said so.

And the Bible never says they married their sisters.
Process of elimination indicates this.
But then, if we are going to decide certain things must be the case but are left out,
perhaps other things are left out.
Like others were made.

Mostly, yes. Imaginary Gods.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

If you get off the fence, you will agree.

Regards
DL:

Mostly, yes. Imaginary Gods.
[/quote]
What about what atheist communist regimes and neo-con corporate processes, like those, say, in Latin America carried out by corportions. That easily outdoes in the 20th century deaths related to religion.

I see no reason to assume that the end of the organized religions will get rid of most of the wrongs in the world?

which does not mean i am a fan of them.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:

Genesis 20:2
2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.”

Intermarriage among close family members was a necessity in the generations immediately following Adam and Noah.

Since God made no one else. And yes, it says that about Abraham, but ‘sister’ often meant any female relative. His nephew Lot is called brother. Furtherh there were whole other groups, like the Cananites, whose land Abraham was given. He could have married one of them. In his lifetime there were also Egyptians. With Adam’s children it is a deiduction that it is sisters. And again the relativeness of the issue with incest is odd. Abraham could have found a wife in another group. God could have made other people for A and E’s sons. Incest isn’t bad in itself, it simply becomes a rule, later. IOW it is not inherently a bad thing. God makes it a rule. Like it’s breaking the rules to touch a football with your hands. We don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that act, it’s just one of the restrictions in the game. It’s odd that God would make it so heinous after it is not. It is also odd he did not prevent it.