Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:06 pm

omar wrote:I don't know Felix
I think that there is more than one "Felix", more than one "Omar" because we leave only impressions, not our essences in our personal encounters. Thus every writer encounters Jesus for the first time. The Gospels, separated by time, place and even language, HAD TO present different versions of Jesus. The only reason that there were agreements was due to the existence of a written account of all his deeds, which they fleshed out for their communities.
More importantly though is the existence of various Christianities, some which remain in the Biblical narratives.
The important thing is what about Heaven? Because if there is a Heaven/Hell realities, eternal (unlike the current life), then EVERYTHING that has and can happen takes on a different meaning. For example, the flood. If there is no life after death then it was the permanent extinguishing of millions. If there is an after life then there were millions added either to heaven of hell, given their proper judgment, thus just placement. A Judge is not regarded as a criminal.


OK, so we agree there are different characterizations of Jesus in the New Testament [NT]. There are even disagreements about his deeds. The point is, that presents problems when we go to try and figure out if Jesus would condemn or condone Yahweh actions in the OT.

The heaven and hell question is a good one. Of course, that's a NT conception. The "Old Testament" that the church appropriated from the Jews doesn't depict heaven or hell that way. Personally, I don't think the idea of eternal punishment is moral. It's a disproportional to the crimes even of a mass murderer like Hitler. And without the possibility of repentance and rehabilitation it serves no purpose. It seems to be the projection of powerless people onto God that makes Him look like a person who is spiteful because He is unable to create an absolutely good universe. So, the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount wouldn't condone the teaching of the Jesus who preached eternal judgment.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:27 pm

felix dakat wrote:
we agree there are different characterizations of Jesus in the New Testament [ NT ] There are even disagreements about his deeds
The point is that presents problems when we go to try and figure out if Jesus would condemn or condone Yahweh actions in the OT

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger of God so there should be no ambiguity in relation to Gods message
But there is as the various incarnations of the Bible were all written by different men at different times
Was it the actual word of God that had been written or dictated by him there would only be one version
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:44 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
felix dakat wrote:
we agree there are different characterizations of Jesus in the New Testament [ NT ] There are even disagreements about his deeds
The point is that presents problems when we go to try and figure out if Jesus would condemn or condone Yahweh actions in the OT

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger of God so there should be no ambiguity in relation to Gods message
But there is as the various incarnations of the Bible were all written by different men at different times
Was it the actual word of God that had been written or dictated by him there would only be one version


There's plenty of ambiguity about who Jesus was and what was his message. The Bible is a complex book with a complex history. There are various faith positions that people take on it. It seems to me you might have one of those.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:34 pm

I am an atheist with no particular faith position to declare so am merely pointing out the
various inconsistencies that exist both within individual Bibles and all the Bibles together
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Destiny » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:36 pm

Jesus forgives criminals so he won't judge God.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:45 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:I am an atheist with no particular faith position to declare so am merely pointing out the
various inconsistencies that exist both within individual Bibles and all the Bibles together

Then I wonder why you declared that Jesus was a prophet and messenger of God rather than stating that he thought he was a prophet and messenger of a god who doesn't exist.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:12 pm

Because I am simply following the narrative as it is written
I am interested in its logical consistency not its truth value
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:44 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Because I am simply following the narrative as it is written
I am interested in its logical consistency not its truth value
Then why did you cherry-pick the titles prophet and messenger when the narrative also famously claims that Jesus was Christ and the Son of God?

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:11 pm

Jesus was not the Son of God for that was a title given to him by Christians
A Prophet or Messenger is only human and so cannot attain God like status
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:11 pm

A Prophet or Messenger is only human and so cannot attain God like status
Based on which theology?
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry
It doesn't violate the first commandment if Jesus is just an avatar of the one and only God.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:10 pm

felix dakat wrote:
quote="Greatest I am"]True that Gnostic Christians rightly pegged Christianity as an immoral creed a long time ago.
You may be right. But first, why do you think Marcion was a gnostic? What is gnosticism? What is the immoral creed? Or shall we agree that these are digressions which will take us too far afield from the OP thesis?


I can be brief and this is not too far off the moral part of the topic.

Marcion disagreed with the orthodoxy and that might be enough to have me see him as a Gnostic as it shows he is a free thinker. Gnostic Christianity has evolved over time and it would be best to discuss his position on thing and compare them to modern Gnostic Christian thinking though as Christianity won the god wars and muddied the waters in terms of what we actually believed. Like the lies that we do not venerate matter and think the world corrupted.

Gnosticism, defined in short form, is a creed of esoteric ecumenists and naturalists who recognize that all gods are man made and we just openly admit it and if we are all to make up our own gods then why not take the label of god, which we do, by naming god I am and actually meaning ourselves. Knowledge and honesty is paramount to us and that is what frustrates some as we will only speak to what we know or can be known, which excludes anything supernatural.

Greatest I am wrote:As to following a policy of unconditional love, I would think that if it has value, then it has conditions. I do not think unconditional love is really a thing because, for love to be true love, it takes two and an absentee god cannot love unconditionally if love needs works, deeds and reciprocity, and it does.


Whether unconditional love is "true" or not, it's what Jesus is said to have taught in the Sermon on the Mount and contradicted in other places. And, I thought that the Jesus of the Bible, is what we were talking about.


If Jesus had unconditional love for all, he sure did not show it to the merchants who had the temples permission to be where they were when Jesus chased them away from the temple.

However, I think there is plenty of evidence that unconditional love exists. Haven't you ever read about a mom who loves her axe-murderer son? Parents not infrequently can't stop loving their unworthy children and vice versa, children their unworthy parents. Love isn't rational in a narrow sense.
[/quote]

Unconditional love would be epitome of love. Love of the highest form. I think.

Ask those mothers if their love would grow for their children if their children had not been axe murderers or otherwise unworthy.

If they say yes, which I think they would, then they have conditions to the degree of love they have even for their children.
That fact negates unconditional love of the highest degree.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:13 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Jesus was not the Son of God for that was a title given to him by Christians
A Prophet or Messenger is only human and so cannot attain God like status
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry


I agree, but knowing what the bibles says of these two, to me, fictional characters, would Jesus condone what Yahweh purportedly does in the bible?

Mine is a moral question that seeks to ignore reality questions. Analysing the myth and morals people get from it is my goal here.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:21 pm

Destiny wrote:Jesus forgives criminals so he won't judge God.


So you are saying that Jesus judges humans yet will not judge god.

Why not?

Do you see Jesus forming an immoral double standard of morality the way Christians do to forgive god for things he would condemn in men?

Here is an example of that and that propensity, that you sort of indicate Jesus has, is immoral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mJCCARjyNM

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:24 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:Because I am simply following the narrative as it is written
I am interested in its logical consistency not its truth value


I had to chuckle at your "logical consistency".

Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Logic is a part of reason and sense.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:08 pm

phyllo wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry

It doesnt violate the first commandment if Jesus is just an avatar of the one and only God

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger not an avatar of God

God expects unconditional worship from all his followers
Worship of anything or anyone else is expressly forbidden

The First Commandment is the greatest Commandment of them all
And a Prophet or Messenger cannot be anything else because of this

Both the Jews and the Christians worshipped or continue to worship false gods
The Jews worshipped the golden calf and the Christians worship Jesus and Mary
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity which violates the First Commandment too

In Islam however there is only one God and no one else is equal to him and this is acknowledged by all Muslims
There is no Trinity and Jesus is only a Prophet and Messenger and Mary is only his mother and neither is Divine

The worship of Jesus and Mary that occurs in Christianity and the worship of the golden calf that occurred in Judaism is expressly forbidden in Islam
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
phyllo wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry

It doesnt violate the first commandment if Jesus is just an avatar of the one and only God

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger not an avatar of God

God expects unconditional worship from all his followers
Worship of anything or anyone else is expressly forbidden

The First Commandment is the greatest Commandment of them all
And a Prophet or Messenger cannot be anything else because of this

Both the Jews and the Christians worshipped or continue to worship false gods
The Jews worshipped the golden calf and the Christians worship Jesus and Mary
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity which violates the First Commandment too

In Islam however there is only one God and no one else is equal to him and this is acknowledged by all Muslims
There is no Trinity and Jesus is only a Prophet and Messenger and Mary is only his mother and neither is Divine

The worship of Jesus and Mary that occurs in Christianity and the worship of the golden calf that occurred in Judaism is expressly forbidden in Islam


So is equality of the sexes which shows just how corrupt an ideology Islam is, as it goes directly against it's own reciprocity rule.

I have seen where Allah says not to put a partner with him but I have not seen where he forbids putting someone above him.

Do you gave a quote that does?

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:37 pm

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger not an avatar of God

God expects unconditional worship from all his followers
Worship of anything or anyone else is expressly forbidden

The First Commandment is the greatest Commandment of them all
And a Prophet or Messenger cannot be anything else because of this

Both the Jews and the Christians worshipped or continue to worship false gods
The Jews worshipped the golden calf and the Christians worship Jesus and Mary
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity which violates the First Commandment too

In Islam however there is only one God and no one else is equal to him and this is acknowledged by all Muslims
There is no Trinity and Jesus is only a Prophet and Messenger and Mary is only his mother and neither is Divine

The worship of Jesus and Mary that occurs in Christianity and the worship of the golden calf that occurred in Judaism is expressly forbidden in Islam
This is your interpretation of Christianity.

You completely ignore what Christians say about the nature of Jesus within the Trinity.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
This is your interpretation of Christianity

You completely ignore what Christians say about the nature of Jesus within the Trinity

My interpretation of Christianity is based upon the Commandments which God gave to Moses
What Christians say about the Trinity is irrelevant because Jesus can not be the equal of God

It makes no sense at all to elevate him from Prophet and Messenger to the equal of God
None of the other Prophets or Messengers were elevated so neither should he have been
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:08 am

Greatest I am wrote:
I have seen where Allah says not to put a partner with him but I have not seen where he forbids putting someone above him

Do you gave a quote that does

The First Pillar Of Islam references that Allah is the one and only true God so there can be no one above him
The notion of God having a partner is not acceptable in Islam for there is none who is actually equal to Allah

Islam completely rejects such a notion which is why it rejects Trinitarianism which also references equality with God
As a philosophical concept it makes no sense at all for it is impossible for God to be dead and alive at the same time

Even he cannot violate the Law Of Non Contradiction
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby felix dakat » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:12 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
phyllo wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
Making Jesus God violates the First Commandment which forbids idolatry

It doesnt violate the first commandment if Jesus is just an avatar of the one and only God

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger not an avatar of God

God expects unconditional worship from all his followers
Worship of anything or anyone else is expressly forbidden

The First Commandment is the greatest Commandment of them all
And a Prophet or Messenger cannot be anything else because of this

Both the Jews and the Christians worshipped or continue to worship false gods
The Jews worshipped the golden calf and the Christians worship Jesus and Mary
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity which violates the First Commandment too

In Islam however there is only one God and no one else is equal to him and this is acknowledged by all Muslims
There is no Trinity and Jesus is only a Prophet and Messenger and Mary is only his mother and neither is Divine

The worship of Jesus and Mary that occurs in Christianity and the worship of the golden calf that occurred in Judaism is expressly forbidden in Islam

"Surreptitious75--You claim to be an atheist yet your point of view on these issues seems to be Islamic. What's up with that?
Last edited by felix dakat on Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Serendipper » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:34 am

The Jesus character in the bible is most certainly the antithesis of the Father character while the Holy Spirit character is rarely, if ever, personified (certainly not in the greek).

Those I've challenged in the past have simply dismissed the murders of the Father on the basis of his never committing sin, but Jesus had likewise never committed sin yet he said to turn the other cheek and the meek shall inherit the earth, so if Jesus' words are true, the tyrannical Father will NOT be inheriting the earth, though he might destroy it since he appears to have a healthy appetite for destruction if the bible is any sort of guide on the matter.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Serendipper » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:39 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
phyllo wrote:
This is your interpretation of Christianity

You completely ignore what Christians say about the nature of Jesus within the Trinity

My interpretation of Christianity is based upon the Commandments which God gave to Moses
What Christians say about the Trinity is irrelevant because Jesus can not be the equal of God

It makes no sense at all to elevate him from Prophet and Messenger to the equal of God
None of the other Prophets or Messengers were elevated so neither should he have been


Right, Jesus is A son of god and not THE son of god. The A has been perverted into THE for reasons I'm not quite clear on. The greek language doesn't suggest that.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby Serendipper » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:42 am

Greatest I am wrote:Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Good stuff! The deification of ignorance.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby phyllo » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:10 am

What Christians say about the Trinity is irrelevant ...
:shock:
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Re: Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes aga

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:38 am

felix dakat wrote:
surreptitious75 You claim to be an atheist yet your point of view on these issues seems to be Islamic

Jews and Christians had corrupted the teachings of God so he had the Koran dictated to Mohammad by the angel Gabriel for future believers
I do not believe in God but if he does exist I will be shown no mercy on the Day Of Judgement and thrown into Hell with all the other infidels

I think religion is man made however and was created by him to overcome his irrational fear of death
I have no such fear and have no need for any God and will be quite happy to go when my time comes

I have no problem spending the rest of eternity in a state free from all suffering forever more
I was actually in that state of perfect non existence before my parents decided to create me

But when I return there I will never be interrupted again
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