Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

Scholars disagree about whether or not Marcion was a Gnostic. Wiki says the following:

I already stated that Jesus seems to contradict the sermon on the mount elsewhere in the texts. Your example may be an instance of that.

To be unconditional, is to impose no conditions, qualifications, stipulations. To be of the highest form might be something else. I don’t see why love couldn’t be granted unconditionally and yet still have the capacity to greater or lesser. So, imagine a woman who loves her abusive husband but realizes that if she stayed with him he would kill her. So she leaves him but still has feelings of love for him. Such love as she has for him is unconditional love. Is it the highest love? I don’t know. How does one determine that?

If that is true then you aren’t here now. What happens once in eternity, never happens.

Luther was one sick dude.

:confused:

Just great.

Hello Felix

I don’t think he would, but, as a jew, his approach to his father was much more like Job than like our critics. When he was praying to his Father, Yahweh, it was clear that his resolve was faltering and that he would’ve rather the Father effect his solution in some other way that in the brutalization of the Son, and yet Jesus ultimately resigns to His will, whatever reservations or criticism he might have had. The story of Job also shows a critical believer, who obviously was far from approving of Yahweh’s treatment of him, a faithful servant, nevertheless submitting to His will.
Now, before one goes on, it is important to acknowledge that there are differences between the Barbaric Yahweh, the Loving Jesus, and the philosophical God of John’s gospel. These differences lead one to doubt the claim that the Bible is a work inspired by God but instead informed by the culture of the time which surrounds it. You look at the history of the Catholic Church and we see even today pagan beliefs rolled in as Christian beliefs, simply because they were part of the culture that was absorbed into the Church. Same goes for the amplified role for Satan and the views about the afterlife, from something denied, to something they embraced.
This cultural influence has always required an explanation from the believer, hence the title of the original post. But, in my opinion, the answer is not in the facts but in the person. Would Jesus condemn Yahweh? Doubt it. Yahweh’s barbarity was not a long forgotten memory but something lived. Jesus was a jew, not a Christian. He celebrated passover, the remembrance of the death of an innocent child for the sins of his father, who may very well have been destined. Some of this jewish culture still produced ideas that only Yahweh could carry out, as in Paul’s Potter. actions beyond explanation. Barbaric, cruel. Love is talked about by Paul in such a way, but away from the jewish sources. When dealing with certain passages, Paul has to deal with Yahweh head on and the look is not good. But condemn Yahweh? Farthest thing from their minds.

Again, I think that we are judging ancient conceptions we no longer understands. The effects of philosophy changed what humans needed their gods to be, but Hell, Day of Judgment, Lake of Fire…these ideas precede Christianity, just as the idea of an All-Father that can intercede in our stead. We, as a species, seem to be ok with immense suffering, as long as there is a way for us to avoid it.

There is much to what you say, Omar, but the criticism of Yahweh isn’t merely the result of modern historical distance. We have Marcion of Sinope for one who was obviously a critic of Yahweh as the demiurge way back in the second century. Marcion was certainly innovative and the first to compile a NT canon. What Marcion, the so-called Gnostics and some of the early so-called church fathers seemed to be doing was applying Greek philosophy to their analysis of the Hebrew Bible and the kerygma.

The remarkable thing about Jesus’ view in some places is his faith in an all good God given the adverse circumstances in first century Palestine. If God is all good then how does one account for the evil state of the world? Thus, the necessity of an almost equally powerful evil deity, Satan the devil. This dualism you don’t see in the Hebrew Bible aka the Old Testament where the true God’s sovereignty over all isn’t seriously challenged. There Satan is an angelic messenger of God and while people may go astray to worship foreign gods, such are no true rivals to the All-Mighty in the narrative cosmologies of the authors.

Many modern NT scholars don’t believe Jesus or his followers anticipated his crucifixion. There was no expectation of a crucified messiah in the first century. Jesus and his disciples had expected that with divine intervention from above he would become the reigning king of Israel. Obviously that didn’t happen. Christianity, the spiritualization of Jesus as the Christ of Faith, was the creative response to the trauma of the crucifixion of the founder.

Hello Felix da Kat. It is good to read such an informed talk on Jesus. I was wondering if this means you reject the drama from “father let this cup pass me by!” which has captivated me always. Because I have religion and wonder how it would feel if I Odin would abandon me. I always admired Jesus for going through with his ordeal even though he knew it and didn’t like it.

I guess what I am secretly saying is, Jesus is greater when he knew the future. If he is only a rebel who was martyred then the whole deal of Christianity doesn’t seem so magical and holy.

Still though even if Jesus himself didn’t know he was gonna get nailed to a cross, the early Christians did know that and still didn’t renounce their faith. Thus did they follow an example Jesus didn’t even really set? If so they were braver than Jesus. Even braver. Pretty strong dudes. And dudettes.

I agree with that last.

If the notion of God having a partner is not acceptable because of equality then how is it that Muslim men partner with women who are a measure below men?

I would have thought that Muslims would live by the same or as close to the standards of Allah, which means that you would have to scrap the notion that your women are inferior to you just because they are women.

Regards
DL

Yet Allah and Yahweh are the same god to Islam. Or are you denying this.

Regards
DL

All kind of weird eh?

Regards
DL

I would guess by calling unconditional love the epitome of love and comparing that highest degree to whatever degree is being shown.

Some might say of your example that if she loved that fool unconditionally, her of fear of death would not drive her away.

That love she is sharing cannot be unconditional or even true love because true love requires reciprocity and good works and deeds. Obviously the good works and deeds are negated by his threats to kill his wife.

I would not say that she in unconditionally in love. I would say she is insane to stay with the prick.

Regards
DL

Not to butt in but I cannot agree.

Jesus wanted to die. This is obvious from his bribe and show of love by passing a sop to Judas at the last supper and all the other disciples just sitting back and letting Judas go do as Jesus trusted him above the others to do. I think he was hoping that what would happen and did not, his resurrection, would happen.

The Jewish always expected a messiah and Jesus might have been delusional enough to give it a god and do what the tradition promised.

youtube.com/watch?v=UrDGgKunPsY

Regards
DL

Hey. I saw your avatar and say my hand scar, inherited through my Viking blood, pictured.

What came first? The natural scaring from the blood produce growth in the hand that is left after the operation or dide the Vikings tattoo the hand before the condition shows itself? The nickname for Dupuytren’s nickname is Viking hand.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren%27s_contracture

You probably have no idea but I thought I would see how Viking you are, brother.

Regards
DL

You’ve got your definition and I’ve got mine.

I don’t presume to know. A historical reading of the texts suggests that Jesus regarded himself as the messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term. In other words he thought of himself as a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman occupiers, set up a Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of world peace, justice and prosperity. This is what it meant to be Messiah according to many Jews based on the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible.

Jesus was apparently not a militarist. He didn’t build up an army to fight the Romans since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome. According to Zechariah 14:4 the miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives. That may be what Jesus was praying for In The Garden of Gethsemane. If God had initiated the “day of the Lord” on the Mount of Olives the cup of crucifixion may have indeed passed from him.

By the time of his prayer in the garden, Jesus had already drawn negative attention to himself from Jewish and Roman authorities by disrupting order in the temple and he may have sensed that the end was near. When God did not intervene his messianic dream failed.

After his death it was up to his followers to reimagine his mission. The New Testament record shows that Paul of Tarsus was instrumental in this project. According to tradition at least 10 of the 12 apostles were martyred. Some say Matthew was not martyred others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia. Only John is generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. But the documentation on this is questionable. Only the deaths of Judas and James the son of Zebedee are recounted in New Testament texts.

The historical basis for the last supper story is questionable. The preponderance of the evidence I’ve seen suggests that Jews in the first century were not expecting a crucified messiah. If Jesus had expected to become the messiah/king/savior of an earthly Israel, Jesus’ followers would have needed to reimagine Jesus’ mission in order for the movement to continue when his expectation failed. The video you linked is interesting. However, as the video’s narrator notes and is further documented here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel%27s_Revelation the meaning and provenance of the writing on the stone is inconclusive.

I don’t know anything about Islam and far too much about Christianity.

Before we get too carried away nuancing every bump n wiggle throughout the life of Jesus, have we established that he even existed?

Don’t watch this video from 5:00 to 30:00 if you want to preserve your faith.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0[/youtube]

“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.” Thomas Paine.

What blows my mind is how someone living in the 1700’s could know that.

I know too much about both. Have a chuckle on me.

youtube.com/watch?v=KYV7KWQ-fY4

Regards
DL

Yeah I love that video :slight_smile:

If Jesus was a myth, then discussing whether he would have condemned or condone Yahweh is absurd. I think it’s more likely that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person whose story was mythologized by the church after he died.