Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

I can’t find the video where he said “how dare you have the disgusting effrontery to exist” from the christian perspective, but this one is pretty good too:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNeaZeFbhH0[/youtube]

I was in Mexico last August
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studying this, because I wanted to go down there and find out
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why their form of Catholicism is so agonizing.
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And…
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I meditated a long time on this,
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in the cathedral of Wahaga.
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And
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Here was the main altar
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– no, not the main altar. The chapel where the sacrament is reserved
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The central figure behind the altar is a huge crucifix
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of Christ covered in blood and wounds.
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The sores are all modeled, you know?
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And then on either side of the walls facing this,
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there are great paintings.
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One of Christ carrying the cross and being mocked and scourged,
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and the other, of the agony in the Garden of Gethsemane,
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and all around in the stores,
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where they sell bondieuserie in the neighborhood of the cathedral,
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you can buy these agonized faces of Christ
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with a crown of thorns.
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And every thorn individually sticking in,
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and little dribbles of blood,
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the face is kind of green and ghastly.
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And the people dig this!
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They love it!
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They’ll go walking into the Shrine of our Lady of Guadalupe,
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go for a whole mile on their knees!
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You see young girls doing this!
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What is this about?
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Well, you see, some people
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don’t really feel they exist until they are sitting on the point of a thorn.
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Let me put it that way.
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Like reality is a measure of pain.
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See, pain, in this way of looking at things,
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is the most real thing that there is.
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Pleasure, the pleasures of this world
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escape and disappear and pass away,
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there’s nothing to cling to, so don’t go after pleasure, my dear friends!
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That’s awful, that’s a deceit, because the real thing in life is pain.
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And so, what you do is you train yourself from childhood
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to deal with pain.
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We were brought up in a school system
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where it was simply axiomatic that suffering builds character.
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So therefore, anytime you inflicted pain on anybody,
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you were perfectly justified in your own conscience
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because you were doing him a favor.
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You were building his character for him.
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Do him good!
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Hit him hard on the head! (laughs) You know, that sort of attitude. (laughter)
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And, uh…
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(chuckles)
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And so this is based on this philosophy of
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“pain is reality.”
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Is the ultimate
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penitential philosophy.
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Going down, down, down into the most awful.
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“I am wrong.”
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See? “I am a mistake.”
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“I am responsible for this mistake.”
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“Therefore, I ought to suffer.
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and I go right into that state of mind.”
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“And if I’ve got guts and courage, I’ll go as far into it as possible.”
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“And what will I find out at the end?”
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Now, if you go far enough…
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the trouble is, a lot of people don’t.
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And they stay around, mimble-mambling about
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their sins and all that, which is sort of disgusting.
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And they never really get down to it.
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They never find out
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what I’ll call “the moment,” the hidden motivation behind all this.
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Behind self-renunciation.
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Behind wallowing in
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the reality of pain.
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They don’t see that it’s phony.
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Because
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nothing can be more egotistical
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than true repentance.
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As I pointed out, you’re safe
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when you’re repentant enough.
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Therefore, you…
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conceal from yourself, temporarily, what an egotist you are.
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But if you really get down to the bottom of this thing
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as some of the Christian saints have done,
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and find out what that repentance is all about,
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and you suddenly see
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why it’s your old sin all over again.
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What I thought was good, was, as a matter of fact, evil.
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It was the same self-seeking and self-righteousness
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and ineradicable pride and irreducible rascality,
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which the Hebrews call,
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the yetzer hara.
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Which means, ‘the evil inclination.’
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But they say that the evil inclination was created by the Lord God.
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And probably the Lord God has a yetzer hara himself.
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That the Lord
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has his own element of irreducible rascality.
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And that is, of course, what you might call the dark side,
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the left hand of God.
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The left hand that doesn’t know what the right hand doeth.
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'Cause that mustn’t be let out; that’s the secret.
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You see?
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If the game of the cosmos is of the fundamental pattern of hide and seek,
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Then when ‘hide’ turns up, and it’s the time for ‘hide’ to happen
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Then
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darkness has its day.
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Hide in the dark.
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But when it’s time for ‘seek,’
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then light has its day,
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and we find out what was hidden in the dark,
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and then the right hand suddenly discovers what the left hand was doing.
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(chuckles)
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At first, it’s shocked!
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(chuckles)
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What, that?!
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(laughs)
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What is that, by the way?
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What is the fundamental taboo?

I took it as an elective lol

He says there is just one thing: the self. I suppose he means the Brahman.

Why do you feel that way?

But any combination of interest in others will ultimately also come back to an interest in yourself, so there is no combination.

But water is not a function of impurities. Water is H2O and the impurities are not water. Tea is water + impurities (the tea flavors).

In that case, there is no ‘other’. What do ‘selfless’ and ‘selfish’ mean? Nothing?

One often encounters posters who are “surprised” that everyone does not think as they do. They are “surprised” that there is more than one way to look at a subject. They are “surprised” that there is something to debate.

LOL

What do you expect? People who thank you for posting informative videos and who always agree with you?

People were able to identify water long before anybody thought of hydrogen, oxygen or molecules. They could distinguish tea from water as well.

I think that they can identify love in spite of whatever selfish/selfless labels philosophers insist on attaching.

What a Gnostic Christian is is best described by the name of my god.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god “I am”, and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name “I Am” you might see as meaning something like, — I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

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I don’t think the Bible clearly says this, though SOME quotes can be interpreted this way. And if it is clear then we certainly don’t need outside experts, ones strongly affected by the lens of other religions or psychologies, to show what the Bible really means - re: the videos you suggest.

And the section of the Bible specifically referring to childish things also says that women were made for men, but men were not made for women.

That writer seems not to have given up childish things, nor is it made clear exactly what is meant by childish things. As in many parts of the Bible, it is open to interpretatoins, especially given the many writers and modes in the full context of the Bible, and of course its two halves.

and of course Jesus said that only one who is like a child…etc.

And yes, I realize that is also open to interpretations, some which might work with the other quote, some that might not.

No argument on this. You are correct in that it is how you think of the supernatural that is important to you.

Do you think a supernatural invisible realm as a good realm to build an ideology on?

Would you let a childish mind guide humanity based on imaginary entities?

Regards
DL

Oh holy hell you gotta stop with the holier than thou innuendo.

You said “I guess it comes down to the fact that I don’t understand a lot of this.” And now you imply I have no justification to be surprised. Well how can you tell if you know nothing about it and had no class in philosophy? Go take a poll of philosophy students and if you discover that many of them believe there are selfless acts, then come tell me I’m wrong. Until then you’re just pedestalizing yourself by speaking from ignorance as if you knew enough to judge me.

Well good. If you already know everything, then stop asking questions.

1 Corinthians 3
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Matthew 18
18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

There are two senses of child: one means inability to understand spiritual concepts and the other means humility.

I’ve been listening to Bart Ehrman who happened to remark that Gnostic Christians believed there is special knowledge and might have implied it was like magic chants or incantations. Alan also said that if one knew the name of God, he could exercise some special power with it. I don’t know much about this topic.

Does that imply anything about the name Will I am (William)?

I currently believe that any mind picture of God is a graven image and it’s more prudent to not try to conceptualize God. Faith is not-clinging.

How does one become brother to Jesus?

What do you make of the verse:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

That satanist on youtube (Mark Passio I think) says the verse alludes to duality and the nondual (eye be single). I’m not sure.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is not a direction to keep the commandments, but keeping the commandments is evidence of a saved condition.

Predestination supports the idea that there is nothing to be done.

Reminds me of this

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YwEArrXNnI[/youtube]

Yes I did because love of others and caring for others can be easily seen. I don’t understand why somebody would deny the reality of those observations.

As far as I’m concerned the better questions are : do you see people who love others? do you see people who care about others?

You’re the one talking down at me as if you and the philosophy 101 students have the ONLY TRUE KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.

My post was about the Bible. You have not responded to the points I made.

That is not relevant. I am not one of the writers of the Bible. We were talking about what a quote meant and the Bible’s position or positions on the supernatural. The Bible portrays all sorts of supernatural events and entities and you add to them elsewhere with God walking around in clothes.

Also not a response to the points I made which were about the Bible. As I said there are quotes in the Bible that can be, but need not be, interpreted as saying that something more metaphorical is meant. But there are many quotes and ways of describing events such that they come off as describing real supernatural events.

Here you go personal and mention the supernatural being important to me. But the issue is not my beliefs or lack of in the supernatural. The issue is what the Bible is saying.

Here you make no attempt to respond to my points about the Bible and shift to focusing on me.

You’re not much of a philosophical discussion partner. You are a proselytizer, who posts as if, at least, you either are afraid to deal with ideas that differ from yours or think that people should only listen to you or agree with you after repetition.

That is childish. I’ll check back in few months and see if you can actually read other people’s posts AND show this by responding to the points, at least some of them, that other people make.

If I see a mother doing something for her child …

Why wouldn’t I say that she cares about the child?

Why would I say that she cares only about herself?

:confused:

It seems to me you’re describing an ideal prototype which is the best example of a category and the standard against which all category members are to be judged. Such is the absolute or essence or ideal of something which was the best example of that thing in experience or fantasy. This idealized experience becomes the standard against which all lesser real things are measured. Ideologues and absolutists believe uncritically in the reality of their absolutes or ideals. Sure we need ideal prototypes to communicate. But it doesn’t follow from that that they are real. Language is the imperfect product of human primates. Words referring to actual phenomena can’t be understood as naming fixed and discrete entities or properties. They’re naming points on a curve of probabilities.

You’re just mad and don’t really mean that :slight_smile:

I’m not condoning his behavior (nor condemning it because I’m not really following closely enough), but why should the rest of us suffer because you’re mad at him? I’d prefer it if you didn’t take a few-month vacation.

We all want to be here and this wouldn’t be a place to be if it weren’t for us, so let’s try to get along.

Per the thread about moderation, this is how one moderates an extreme situation. Bring it back to center and try to keep people from escalating and leaving. I may not be that good at it, but this is basically how lol

I can live with words not being real, but if we’re going to communicate, we must have absolute definitions so we know clearly what each other are talking about. Also, I’ve noticed that most arguments stem from not having agreeable definitions.

For instance, atheists are offended when someone insists they believe there is no god, but that’s what the word means, or should mean, because else we’re left with atheism = agnosticism and then we need a new word for people who believe there is no god. Why insist on having this much confusion?

This is where I differ with Christopher Hitchens who believes agnostics are disingenuous and loathes the advent of the word, and I can’t for the life of me figure out why he’s so married to a particular word. Why not say “Fine, I’m agnostic. Happy?” It’s better than enduring a 2 hour debate centered around semantic bickering regarding the meaning of atheism rather than the validity of it.

I could also speak critically of definitions within the science of physics. What is heat? There are oodles of quora pages defining what heat is. Why does a simple definition need to be so difficult to convey? What are gamma rays? It depends who you ask. A science should have clear and absolute definitions; otherwise it’s an art.

Likewise with love. If there isn’t a clear, concise, and absolute definition for the word, then defining the word becomes an art.

But caring about others is caring about yourself.

Sure I see people who care about others, but only because they care about themselves.

No, philosophy 101 students represent what most philosophers believe and not what is true. I’m surprised this is an issue because most philosophy students would not require this to be explained to them. If this were a motorcycle forum, I would not be surprised that members have not encountered the “no selfless acts” claim, but on a philosophy forum, it is surprising to me and my surprise is justified by my experience in philosophy class and not my arrogance.

You’ve distorted that in every way possible: You’ve implied through exaggeration that I’m surprised that people do not agree with everything I say and then painted a picture that I should expect people to worship me for posting some videos n stuff. Now you distort my surprise as being a claim of what is correct or incorrect. It is not, but it’s a claim about popular knowledge (right or wrong) I expected philosophers to already have. And it’s not an appeal to authority by popularity anymore than expecting most mathematicians to already be familiar with 1+1=2.

I just find it odd that everyone offline knows what I’m talking about, but everyone online doesn’t. How can there be such a disconnect?

She doesn’t ONLY care about herself, but she cares about the child BECAUSE she cares about herself. If the child dies, it would hurt her, so if she doesn’t want to be hurt, she has to care for the child.