Something Instead of Nothing

And that might be perfectly clear if you were then able to connect the dots between what you think in your head here and now about it and all that can be known – must be known – about existence itself in order to confirm that it is beyond all doubt and in fact true.

I’m with you in that until others like phenomenal_graffiti are able to connect those self-same dots between an argued for life after death for “I”, and an ontological understanding of existence, things are looking bleak for any particular “I” that topples over into the abyss.

But given that logic is an invention of the human species and that the human species is no doubt but an infinitesimally insignificant speck in the vastness of what way well be the multiverse, well, what does that tell us about logic itself?

Also, what if logic too is but an inherent manifestation of the laws of matter? Matter encompassed in minds encompassed in brains that are among nature’s most sophisticated set of dominoes “set up” – by what? by who? – to topple over only as they ever could have?

Imbigious, having technical problems, so I can only comment on Your reply here, in this manner.

I do understand Your point of view, and the point of view is not arguable as such, because, it appears, that we are operating in a feedback system. By ‘we’ I mean You and I and anybody reading this now, or in the future, including the structural build up of all the prior constructed analysis, reasoning, and tentative conclusions of it with tentative reification, epoches and inquires, fed back repeatedly within the scope of noticeable and in-noted material.

This material, is, as a down to earth examplefecation is obtuse/obstruct, within or without specifications deemed for assignment.

Moral applications can be bracketed within, for general specification, or without, whete particular case by case analysis need to exemplify any substantial qualification.

Whenever a jury of 12 suffices to adjudicate an agreed upon moral justification, it is deemed ethically right, even if the content of which is mistaken, or even wrong morally.

In case of that being down to the realms of agreed upon understanding, the doubt can never be transcended, and Your point is totally agreeable.
For that reason, the categorical imperative must over come the naturalistic fallacy , even if ’ by fiat’.
Otherwise this argument fails S well, by appeal of the hypothetical Absolute, which must, necessarily be, pre-supposed.

For me, no two ways about it.

Michael Brake from Philosophy Now.

And what might “metaphysical necessity” be contingent upon? Sooner or later the words that we can connect to actual “things” must give way to the words that we can only connect to other words.

No, any number of us are far more fascinated with the question “why is there something that we can grapple with in order to explore how it came to exist at all?”

One way or another the part about science is going to bump into the part about metaphysics.

He describes it. Maybe even “proves” it mathematically. But where are these universes actually observed?

On, say, youtube?

Unless of course this part is just way over my head.

It is notnreallu a matter of.god existing or not, but which way is the trend following: toward or away from what is considered good or bad. Without this dialectic the whole of morality could could not have been constructed.

This energy of constructing ideals come from the very progression of ideals of.which Leibnitz is referring to, of course in terms of the religious, the constituents for whom he was writing.

Having tech problems, so Imbigious I can only post new ideas and cannot refer to Your post, sorry.

I don’t want to reduce the existence of.God to am either or proposition, either , but what may be more likely is, that morality is auto generated coincidentally with the advent of conacioisness.

That probably is the foundation from which all arguments descend on a hopeless efforts to disentangle the long lines of fed back inputs.

And what might “metaphysical necessity” be contingent upon? Sooner or later the words that we can connect to actual “things” must give way to the words that we can only connect to other words.


Contingent upon the appearance of the beginning of the word.

Without which the question of this forum could not possibly even considered, or even posed.

Religious faith has only contingent validity about this, or faith, or anything else similar as a possible scenario.

Now, if any THING is to believed, the above is necessary by way other then contingency, thereby negating itself, establishing the elemental(substantive) faith in nothingness, and by that token getting caught in infallibility of the insubstantility of that very substance.

Here substance is a duplex of both some thing and no thing.

Prior to this , a pre symbolic manifestation gave rise to sub stance-standing below some thing, or foundation to it. (The pre symbolic)

If bi -logically considered, but bio-logically must be understood.

This is basically or, probably the manner in which Platonic ideas animate from the cave of both: Plato and Nietzsche, the latter comes through as in a Repetition which overlays the aesthetic principles.

No need to group and limit/ in a sequential spatial temporal sequence because its Being is embedded in a transcendentalky tacit knowledge.
(POLANYI)

Filter out what is not derivable in possible situations , such , which present options. The non optional situations for close on this linear and contradictory option, hence as soon as it attempts it It quickly enclosed itself into the Absolute.

So the Critiques ( Kant) are again metaphorically rigid, so as to simulate the absolute set in terms of partial differentiation. (Per: Your initial point made)

Science Newsfrom research organizations
Did humans speak through cave art? Ancient drawings and language’s origins
Date:
February 21, 2018
Source:
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Summary:
When and where did humans develop language? To find out, look deep inside caves, suggests a professor.
Share:

FULL STORY

Ancient art in the Altai Mountains, Russia. While the world’s best-known cave art exists in France and Spain, examples of it abound throughout the world.

When and where did humans develop language? To find out, look deep inside caves, suggests an MIT professor.

More precisely, some specific features of cave art may provide clues about how our symbolic, multifaceted language capabilities evolved, according to a new paper co-authored by MIT linguist Shigeru Miyagawa.

A key to this idea is that cave art is often located in acoustic “hot spots,” where sound echoes strongly, as some scholars have observed. Those drawings are located in deeper, harder-to-access parts of caves, indicating that acoustics was a principal reason for the placement of drawings within caves. The drawings, in turn, may represent the sounds that early humans generated in those spots.

In the new paper, this convergence of sound and drawing is what the authors call a “cross-modality information transfer,” a convergence of auditory information and visual art that, the authors write, “allowed early humans to enhance their ability to convey symbolic thinking.” The combination of sounds and images is one of the things that characterizes human language today, along with its symbolic aspect and its ability to generate infinite new sentences.

“Cave art was part of the package deal in terms of how homo sapiens came to have this very high-level cognitive processing,” says Miyagawa, a professor of linguistics and the Kochi-Manjiro Professor of Japanese Language and Culture at MIT. “You have this very concrete cognitive process that converts an acoustic signal into some mental representation and externalizes it as a visual.”

Cave artists were thus not just early-day Monets, drawing impressions of the outdoors at their leisure. Rather, they may have been engaged in a process of communication.

“I think it’s very clear that these artists were talking to one another,” Miyagawa says. “It’s a communal effort.”

The paper, “Cross-modality information transfer: A hypothesis about the relationship among prehistoric cave paintings, symbolic thinking, and the emergence of language,” is being published in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The authors are Miyagawa; Cora Lesure, a PhD student in MIT’s Department of Linguistics; and Vitor A. Nobrega, a PhD student in linguistics at the University of Sao Paulo, in Brazil.

Re-enactments and rituals?

The advent of language in human history is unclear. Our species is estimated to be about 200,000 years old. Human language is often considered to be at least 100,000 years old.

“It’s very difficult to try to understand how human language itself appeared in evolution,” Miyagawa says, noting that “we don’t know 99.9999 percent of what was going on back then.” However, he adds, “There’s this idea that language doesn’t fossilize, and it’s true, but maybe in these artifacts [cave drawings], we can see some of the beginnings of homo sapiens as symbolic beings.”

While the world’s best-known cave art exists in France and Spain, examples of it exist throughout the world. One form of cave art suggestive of symbolic thinking – geometric engravings on pieces of ochre, from the Blombos Cave in southern Africa – has been estimated to be at least 70,000 years old. Such symbolic art indicates a cognitive capacity that humans took with them to the rest of the world.

“Cave art is everywhere,” Miyagawa says. “Every major continent inhabited by homo sapiens has cave art. … You find it in Europe, in the Middle East, in Asia, everywhere, just like human language.” In recent years, for instance, scholars have catalogued Indonesian cave art they believe to be roughly 40,000 years old, older than the best-known examples of European cave art.

But what exactly was going on in caves where people made noise and rendered things on walls? Some scholars have suggested that acoustic “hot spots” in caves were used to make noises that replicate hoofbeats, for instance; some 90 percent of cave drawings involve hoofed animals. These drawings could represent stories or the accumulation of knowledge, or they could have been part of rituals.

In any of these scenarios, Miyagawa suggests, cave art displays properties of language in that “you have action, objects, and modification.” This parallels some of the universal features of human language – verbs, nouns, and adjectives – and Miyagawa suggests that “acoustically based cave art must have had a hand in forming our cognitive symbolic mind.”

Future research: More decoding needed

To be sure, the ideas proposed by Miyagawa, Lesure, and Nobrega merely outline a working hypothesis, which is intended to spur additional thinking about language’s origins and point toward new research questions.

Regarding the cave art itself, that could mean further scrutiny of the syntax of the visual representations, as it were. “We’ve got to look at the content” more thoroughly, says Miyagawa. In his view, as a linguist who has looked at images of the famous Lascaux cave art from France, “you see a lot of language in it.” But it remains an open question how much a re-interpretation of cave art images would yield in linguistics terms.

The long-term timeline of cave art is also subject to re-evaluation on the basis of any future discoveries. If cave art is implicated in the development of human language, finding and properly dating the oldest known such drawings would help us place the orgins of language in human history – which may have happened fairly early on in our development.

“What we need is for someone to go and find in Africa cave art that is 120,000 years old,” Miyagawa quips.

At a minimum, a further consideration of cave art as part of our cognitive development may reduce our tendency to regard art in terms of our own experience, in which it probably plays a more strictly decorative role for more people.

“If this is on the right track, it’s quite possible that … cross-modality transfer helped develop a symbolic mind,” Miyagawa says. In that case, he adds, “art is not just something that is marginal to our culture, but central to the formation of our cognitive abilities.”

Story Source:

Materials provided by Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Original written by Peter Dizikes. Note: Content may be edited for style and length.

Journal Reference:

Shigeru Miyagawa, Cora Lesure, Vitor A. Nóbrega. Cross-Modality Information Transfer: A Hypothesis about the Relationship among Prehistoric Cave Paintings, Symbolic Thinking, and the Emergence of Language. Frontiers in Psychology, 2018; 9 DOI: 10.3389/fpsyg.2018.00115
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Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “Did humans speak through cave art? Ancient drawings and language’s origins.” ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 21 February 2018. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180221122923.htm>.
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Now I am anticipatimg an objection here, regarding how to connect the above possibility with its religious counterpart, via: "in the beginning was the word’. Ex post facto can the two ideas be connected dericotovely?

In a version quoted above on sponteniois generation, the quantum based idea can indeed extrapolate the idea gained by an initial choice: obviously sourced from an exclusion of any kind of probability function other than a total exclusion of effective cause from internal sources.

There was a minimum of internal analysis available and a maximum of causative outer effective agents.

That understood from a point of view of outer to inner continuous generational quantum choices , could not occur to early man. He at first thought of the word of god, (GOD) to express his inability to include an Absolute as an inclusion of everything, including his self, or, himself. It is the later that he could in any possibility conceive , his self dis not consider early on , at least to the time beyond Narcissua. He could not reflect of his self on the basis of himself sans his self consciousness.

At this stage , a goddess punished him for this error, .and this disconnect showed a later trend where the self and consciousness could differentiate and form a gap.

This ideation went on until Jesus in the Western World, where God the Father gained wisdom and sacrificed His Son, in fact Himself to show this differentiation necessitated IT’s Self,

That is how difficult the word was thought to be by the very earliest Holy Fatthers who wrote of the Word.

Little did they fathom that even the incredible job it took to reify ’ The Word’ , it would be their undoing

The connection was broken into two. the primal contradiction was reconstructed by the will to power over god, .

God exists.by utility, and as the early agnostic god of.dyanisus overboard any semblance of the appolonoan relic, the force of kumdalini was finally instrumental in extinguishing its serpent fire.

Is there a correlate that’s more down to earth?

Certainly. Our very developmental beginnings , more serpent like then human, was able to deceive Adam through Eve, his double, and they lost the actual but unknown to them Paradise. .

God had to sacrifice love, in order to teach the lesson of love. Contrarily, starting from the ground up, ezxeprinf some miracles harboring the transcendental

The early word was such a tool, whereby it too can lead to Paradise, through the only way possible, through its metaphysical-quasi religious argumemt. The thousand year old argument over.the transcendental, east and west, NECESSITATES its eternal inclusion, in and out of IT’s. self.

The closer we.get.to the promised Singularity , forecasted in about less them a generation, the more acute it will get.to close.that.gap, WHICH will finally avert the coming of to solve this problem of Some THING or.No.Thing

Do to technical problems I am unable to edit the above. Will do so as soon as I get back to the states. Please omit any unreadable worda, but for the most part such words can be ommitted without losing sense.
I apologise, but the tech problem in addition to a displacement of.eye glasses is the cause.

Again, to the extent that we are able to understand it, the evolution of matter in the universe begets life begets consciousness begets self-consciousness begets philosophy. And [among our species] it is all bursting at the seams with words.

On the other hand, language was created not in order to philosophize but in order to facilitate subsistence and reproduction; and, having achieved this, any number of other human interactions that revolve less around needs and more around wants.

And, in regard to this, we have invented any number of words that can be connected to actual things. And these words either describe these things as they in fact are or as they in fact are understood by “I” to be.

Then communication revolves around the extent to which the words we use are successful in conveying information about “I” out in a particular world with others.

Do we merely think that the words we use [regarding anything] are in sync with reality, or can we go further and demonstrtate that in fact all rational people are obligated to think the same?

Really, what else is there [for all practical purposes] in probing the relationship between words and worlds?

But when words are used only to define and to defend other words, what happens when there are no “things” to connect them with?

Well, among other things, in my opinion, we get assessments of this sort:

A world of words in which we are only able to discuss if what you thnk they mean is, in turn, what all reasonable men and women are obligated to think they mean too.

And all I can do is to ask what on earth you are talking about here in regarding to actual human behaviors or interactions.

As that relates to something rather than nothing at all.

Removed for over redundancy

Here, instead of writing the usual complex and oft confusing analysis, a better way may be had by referring to a source who may help clarify this problem at hand:

From Denney and Sellars, this: ( however such fragment may not clear up the problem in total, I will print out the website, for a further look.

‘We shall take the cogito only as a means of suspending objectivity claims and of thereby inducing infallibility in what remains of the objectivity claim after suspension. This last point is important. For every objective truth claim, in which I am invariably fallible, there is a corresponding trivial truth claim, in which I am infallible, a truth claim which is fulfilled by the sheer fact that I seriously and honestly claim so. For every objective, thick truth claim, that p, there is a corresponding trivial, thin truth claim, that I think that p (or that it seems to me that p)’ (p. 73).

Now if we take two propositional ideas, one substantive , the other claimed insubstantive, for the claim given appears to favor SOMETHING via a first person singular look, here is a way, attained through a test included in the referred test, which sets up correlation between it and objectivity.
I recall mentioning this in another forum I believe , but in this context, it appears to solve the problem of conflicted values and the existential reductio.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5572271/

This would set a minimum epoche, or context from within which the connection to without which may be grasped and connected.

Here phenomenology, structural neurology may be conjoined by psychoanalysis. Where the analytical search for causation could be bonded with the phenomenological reduction , by validating Dennet’s centerpiece basis.

My starting point was, whete several ILP members charged a psychological weakness as the low point where arguments clashed (unambiguous counter argument’s partial claim), in addition to understanding the structural similarities between a phenomenological reduction, versus a psychoanalytical search for effects of casual analysis, especially in drastic psychic regression affects.

I saw and still see no problem in this way of looking at from the point of view of searching for Iambiguous’ problem of his repeated charge of devising merely intellectual contraptions.

The reason why, in his narrative, there can not be any connection, whereby the aforementioned test may offer to approach some measure of linkage.

What particular “objective truth claim” regarding what particular human interactions in what particular context?

In my own opinion, they are just as egregious as you are in avoiding that part.

Again, fallibility/infallibility, in terms of the reduction to that level(existential=nihilistic), and as a formula, plug in anything You like in this epoche, and You will find an approximated association between the object(ive) and the Dasein.

An approximated measure of certainty becomes more or less precise, in in terms of Your/mine/ or any one’s value function.

And this is how You and I and any/everyone can integrate/differentiate value, so they arrive a workable scheme.

This is not my idea, as the above is referenced, but it appears reasonable.

Okay, give me an example of this from your own life.

In particular, a context that involved integrating/differentiating a particular value into a particular workable scheme.

Ok, try.

As I am as much aware of the factors involved in a nihilistic state of Being, as any other man, inescapably and admittedly unable to overcome it, ( presumeably a credibility admission as infallible evidence of truth factors associated).

How are those distinguished from psychological phenotypes, (markers), which would help differentiate those claims, within larger causative (fallible and objective determinants)?

I am referring to the specific ways use a modicum of effective change may be considered, in order to leap from the existential state, versus an objective and shared psychological phenotype which may be shared between two or more people.

How can the affective way felt as a possible genotype separated from a phenotype, in the formation of a trait in personality development?

This leads to a possible general analysis in establishing the factors which may have set the epoche within and without , nihilism can be discussed.

My plane is leaving soon to the States, so it may be worth while to further discuss this within the specific requirements which entail a sufficient scope for individual versus general requirements for discussion.

This is in line with an argument with a past member by the name of Hobbs Choice in reference to philosophical psychology, or convertibly , with psychological philosophy.
This for starters, as the application of the above can not brutely be adopted without further fine combing it.
Since application to Nihilism it’self may be such a general state of Being, it may be worthwhile to serve common purposes better, and to revisit the central issue with abortion , and how that particular concern may be analyzed from the point of view of this strategic tool.

Turning tables here, does serve the purpose of seeking out specific qualification toward more specificity.

My own example may not match Your well analyzed work with the above. However, once the abortion issue is finally put to some kind of rest, that may serve as a springboard, from which other forms of application could be considered.

This is what I asked of you:

And this is as close as you get to that:

We are to, what, revisit the issue of abortion? Analyze it from the point of view of this “strategic tool”?

Seriously, what on earth is your actual motivation for continuing this exchange?

What I need you to do is to note your thoughts and feelings about abortion; and then connect that to your thoughts and feelings about the existence of something rather than nothing.

I have thought of a way out for this problem and applie Your situation , as I proposed, in terms of Your situation .
This proposition is reasonable because it is Your claim.

Let me detail it here.

What is going on here in this argument is a.circularity , between nothing and something. Into which trap we have fallen

The Nihilistic nothingness and the existential something, under which hides the Being or Dasein, is challenged, by an appeal to reason, whwre it always comes back with a vengeance to prove some Thing, whereas that some thing appealed to is negated on the basis that whatever existential leap is attempted , always leaps to other possibilities , with constant need for re proof as.to which one is more preferable.

Right, up to this there appears incongruity.

Now I introduce a.fallibility test, which is nothing else then a showing that the only fallible choice is the one that You are exercising, namely the one from which You can not make the leap, the most generalized form of Dasein, that is the nihilistic trap.
I call it a trap, because it appears to meet the test of existential ground.
This ground is the one which is chosen to be infallible, that of not making a choice.

The existential pre contraptive intellectual choice then reduces below the ‘cogito’ into the world of deciding that as soon as a choice is made to leap out of this dilemma, the minute a way out is chosen, it adapts to conditions of fallibility , adopting a circularitu within which the thread back to the cogito is attempted.

In other words all is fallible other then an intellectual excercise, and the trespass of all modern logical solutions (Descartes) are prevy to Its very self , It’s own ground, which becomes the bases for Its own ground, Dasin.

So You Yourself assert that.to find a way out is not possible , given being stuck at the level of argument sustaining the Evil Genius notion of uncertainty on the level of apprpvatong any objectivity. Not only does the doubt within an absolute idea become inarguably , but the test for it in terms of which is fallible other then the absolute nothingness , in which the position becomes intolerable albeit infallible.
What is going on here is a primal adoption in good faith in the fallibility test within the cogito itself.

This type of argument is common with thinkers who resist any challenge which presents an opportunity to abandon an ideal form of representing the "i’, .as a cognitively held claim in good faith.

Nothing wrong with it, except the undertow of a negative feeling over this, that wants to resolve both paradoxes, one cognitive , the other affective singularly, but such a singularity resulting , is most of represented in self doubt, and colluding the two types into social repression , formed by undefined conflicting goods

This time there is no mention of abortion at all. Not that I actually read every word. :wink:

I can only conclude that you are being ironic. You share my consternation regarding “serious philosophers” exchanging autodidactic, “intellectual contraptions” up in the clouds of abstraction and you expose that to them here by doing it yourself. You show them what they are.

Unless of course I’m wrong.

Yes, there is irony, tainted with an unwitting cynicism, who deny the importance in absolutely valued judgements. Apart from this, the questionable value of depth analysis as a thrown away object is also doubted. However, the necessity of contraptions , intellectual or otherwise is absolutely tied in, and right or wrong, it has become seen as expandable, or irrelevant, and harbors grave dangers of abandoning.

Right or wrong, the death of the gods mean nothing to those who hold them dear.

Alanna Blackshaw in Philosophy Now

So, philosophically or otherwise, is there a way around this? How can the question of something rather than nothing not just leave our heads spinning?

Even in speaking of “square one” we are merely making something up for lack of anything better.

Then it comes back to the reason why each of us as individuals are either more or less intrigued and/or dumbfounded by it all.

Attempts are then made to bring it all down to earth:

The parts we can’t explain.

Then the part where it all basically becomes a word game…

And this explains what exactly?

But what else is there but in taking stabs at it?