Do people value consent in argument?

I don’t think it’s such a bad exercise to explore the validity of a set of propositions, regardless of how sound the premises are.

If anything, I would more than recommend it to everyone, seeing as nowadays all anyone wants to do is further their preferred premises regardless of the validity of any development of them, nevermind to their initial soundness.

However, to a guy who insists on speaking in poetic metaphor and verbose riddles such as Guide, confirming the specifics of the premises in the first place is going to be far too much of an effort in and of itself - however valuable he may proclaim such a task to be to undertake. To deserve consent in an argument, one must first earn it by doing one’s intended interlocutors the courtesy of clarity and communicability. Else you only show yourself to be out to peacock a self-proclaimed yet obfuscated authority - a kind of sparring by running: dancing for its own sake. And dancing is fine, but it is best expressed as itself and not as what it is not. What I have just written is as pretentious as anyone could ever need to get on this forum, let it be your guide.

That is agreeable and sensible , except that both , the premise and the conclusion must be compatible , and no amount of illogical skirting around it , should be a confirmation of applicability , as by the use of rhetorical gyrations, although, such have become in vogue, since at least the last five decades of the twentieth century. The use of very carefully crafted clarity, at times will mask the logical weaknesses inherent within , on account with the demolition of reductive logic .

It is possible to really equovocate a thesis into its obvious contradiction nowadays, by simply changing current usage to conform to desired meanings, and that has been going on since the black letter has been abandoned in many cases to mirror expectations rather then what a confirmation really should have been.

It is very hard and at times almost impossible to argue for what is good , right right and just.

Positivism has gone too far, and it has turned into rather an apologia for lack of proper foundation.

The problem is with the polarization of beliefs structurally suited to apply to a universal line connecting intent with objective. It has been misplaced bybprobable outcome.

Place ones’self into the shoes of the man who is surmised to have been in such and such of situation, frame of mind, and reliance, and try going from there. Good intentions may be lost to a dubious outcome, nevertheless, and judgement strays from the affect into the effected newly formed situation, the existential morass from which there is no appearing escape.

The object captures the subject, intentionality aside. Common sense has no longer any spatial temporal dimension to the degree that is has once had, and that is the fuel over the fire of a prejudicial life, by far deterministic than not. Get someone to argue a child’s innocence out of an time scape, and that innocence will not be described as robbed, and if such mentality was reversed at the time of the abolition of child labor, progressives would have never the chance.

Sorry, double.As I read what I have written, an idea has occured, that the foundation, rather the lack of it, is pesupposing a judgement over the last decades, without the necessary predisposition to appreciate the innate objective wellness that humanity would need as a sine quo non. Sure, the progressives’ have gone far in meritorious achievements, but guidelines have not controlled over the top interpretations, colluded the difference with disposing the worth while with that which should be tossed.

Granted:
-used to admit that something is true, before saying something else about it:
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio … sh/granted

In the art of speaking within philosophy, ‘granting a premise’ [as above] is not a fundamental and critical element.

The following are the critical and fundamental elements within a philosophical discussion,

  1. The patience to determine the ‘Problem Statement,’ question and premise to be accepted [not agreed] for the discussion.
    If this is not done, then both parties will be arguing pass each other and time is wasted.

  2. Adopting the Principle of Charity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

  3. The arguments presented need to be logical and rational

Any ‘granting the premise’ [as defined] would only be a condition and qualification to the argument.

Even though I’m not completely sure what you’re saying, this kind of hurt my feelings a little bit.

It is obvious that inferences of the kind can be made where there is a fair belief of certainty that the narrative goes unnoticed by the one who is seen responsible for lapses of judgement within the narrative. Such oversight neither serves the adjudicator nor the purpose for which such lapses can account for.
There are stylistic formal indistinctions, that cover the reversal of non parity, of the substantial kind, whose forfeiture is much more serious.

That is, a central point that balance around which the meaning structure of that narrative can be unbalanced.
Lack of balance negates the inquiry about consent of their values within any argument.
Its a tricky thing to peg down approximate yet paradigm characteristic types of responses, as far as creating model agreements or disagreements with a proposal, as to characterize a definite type, because responses vary over time, and some are counter tests measuring intentional or non casual inducements.
I am sure at this stage , none could generally be characterized with a rote, propositional description as instigated by primal jealousy.

A better description may be competitive acceptance on basis of some measure of qualification and acceptance on somewhat along its own terms.

“Are we, these days, capable to see the most great worthiness of the art of speaking that operates by granting a premise? And then arguing with what is granted by the human being in discussion.”

This is an epitomized, out of the general opinion, “no” synonymous with: my dad told me this is the way and what you say is not what he said. I can’t think for I must rush to the answer book and don’t really understand in any serious sense what he says (or what you write), though I can give a prospectus of dad’s notions in mere words, so could a machine or a written poster, even though the poster understands nothing; and I myself even less, since I even actively “understand” something else in the place of dad’s concept, thus obstructing myself and driving it even deeper from the warm rays of thought into the intense chillness of winter ground and total hibernation under a desk in the academy at the time of a boring lecture while I fiddle with my braids. As to your wrongheaded ideas, that are unlike what my dad says, I don’t even read them after the first line assaults my eyes; never have I seen such wrongness.

Yeah we all just parrot what we learned by rote. But you’re special - you go, you!

It took you 172 words to say “you learned by rote”. 2% efficiency isn’t worth your time, never mind ours. I even agreed with the value behind your thread title’s suggestion, idiot.

In most of your OPs I had missed what is your intended question or issue.

The ‘wrongness’ and problem is you are a very bad communicator, not me since I could understand most of the other OP and responded correctly.
There is no need to be arrogant when others failed to answer to your expectations. Are you trying to score cheap points to feed your ego?
The correction to such is you should make your OPs more simpler and clearer so that more people understand your intention.

Note this recent OP of yours;

What is the European Science?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194651

MagsJ: Does changing the label change the meaning? i.e. fact/truth…

Attano: I am not certain about what the OP actually means, yet I suppose that Guide is implying something different, which is indeed related to meaning.

Most of the time, people are guessing what your OPs actually mean.

I suggest you state clearly your intended thesis, issue or question in your OP.

Only through learning philosophic scrutinizing, and so, proper or scientific (not in the sense now in power) dialogic exchange, will they set aside this concern. However, the only way to learn is through participating in genuine philosophical exchange. So, you have to put academic standards away. They are made for the university, which is a servant of technology, and so, in the most extreme sense, not for philosophy.

My question was so that I could clarify my own position, to better respond from… I quite like the nature of Guide’s initial position in his OPs, as it takes the mind to many places in order to understand and respond from… parallel thoughts/thinking, if you will, but it seems that it’s just me who likes that. :blush:

I live my life by that quote… I use it all the time. Id like to believe I value truth over hurting my “opponent” but I have made mistakes in the past as well in which I try to win instead of reach truth. I’d much rather lose if one is to or even I learn from my losing.

To debate clearly I feel all ideas/conclusions should be stowed unless arrived at independently. Is this what you are saying? How people are so easily and potently indoctrinated by ideology without realizing? That the only source of discussion should be from the self and nothing external?

This is not what I understood the topic to be. What I mean is that the premise is, MUST BE, supplied ad hominem. So that one can speak to the human being as exists in the granted premise. Old Socratic dialogic. The way now in power is sheer sophistry. The pretense that there is an “argument” independent of human beings and thus the tacit exclusion of “value”, to use the current term (a strange dogmatic vert-frei deliberation, deliberation as mere techne or instrument of nothing). Our sophistry is based on the presupposition that value is not scientific, therefore the human must be excluded from the discussion. The very act of discussion implies the value or altitude as what gives light, the nobility, of discussion as scrutiny into being. If human beings find satisfaction, importance, in discussion, discussion itself is “subjective”, unscientific, by the current state monopoly on metaphysics. The whole procedure is idiotic. The radical and naked exclusion of philosophy from academic “philosophy”. What is the cause: large scale education, ergo, sheer depredation in the service of technology.

Dialogic is not sham-democratic “debate”. Even that much is impossible to communicate to the idiot mind formed of state manipulation. I have zero interest in debate. This is a forced perversion of the current state tyranny that depreciates the human being so radically only “subjective” debate makes sense to the populations. The real sense of collective research is banished.

My idea of ad hominem is when one begins to insult the other individual instead of focus on the conversation. I do not blame them for they do not understand most often. They focus on the attempt of making the others character look weak, deterrent of the topic, a fallacy.

I agree with the idea of socratic dialogic, I just don’t use the same terminology due to independent thought/perception, I haven’t adopted the terminology yet because I have focused more on self thinking rather than reading books, seeking inconsistencies in argument, character, ideals. It’s common sense but common sense is not too common these days for the general public, which I am apart of still of course by force of will and misconceptions of society on average, just not in the form of thinking.

In simpler terms, science has become a method of indoctrination through an authoritative stance. A type of method in which one only learns to think in sense of literal only and not be open minded to metaphorical and interpretation. The value of repeating old knowledge is the unique new person, the diversity in perception and unique thinking, who repeats it, for new ideas may come and be added on.

Your choice of words to the simple man would appear insulting using “idiot mind”, I feel one should attempt at associating context of the other individual into the factor to make it as easy to understand as possible. An unbiaseness in speaking, neutrality. Criticism is grand but the other must learn to accept such as well.

You’re being seduced to place warm emotions and consideration for others above the scrutiny of the investigation! The ability to call an idiot an idiot is of infinite value to intelligent discussion. We could skirt the issue by using less blunt words, but then we lose clarity in the mercury of the nuances which would amount to putting velvet gloves on the tiger of truth.

Because of a presupposition: everything is “individual” under the wholly unthought out, taken for granted: conception of “subjectivity”, or the commonplace existentialism. Each one has the right to interpret existence in their own way. This leads to a dreamlike impotence of all discussion, and sheer power controls everything. Since in institutions the correct and incorrect are laid down by main force. All conversation then drifts from what is serious, the views to be taken by institutions and the state. By education and the courts. As soon as we admit that some answers or statements are right (correct), and some wrong, with respect to anything at all, then we see that it is crazy not to regard some people as idiots. And not to be squeamish about saying it. An idiot thinks they are right, when they are wrong. The whole issue is in the very trite reality that people are often wrong about quite a number of trivial things while claiming to be right. Idiots. It is right to point out idiocy, a clear state of affairs one often encounters.

Thesis: There’s no “conversation”. Only “individuals”. Why? : You say it: “The value of repeating old knowledge is the unique new person, the diversity in perception and unique thinking, who repeats it, for new ideas may come and be added on.”

The “conversation” (or, at length, the “argument”) is nothing else but the way noises are understood by the ones there. There is no “argument” living by itself to take up defense of itself.

Problem: One confuses this, your statement, with this: Enjoyment of variety for its own sake without consideration of whether the thing makes sense or not. Insight is rare, idiosyncratically worthless opinions are commonplace and bequeathed to this forum constantly.

You must first peak the ignorant mans curiosity, before disciplining him about it. This is where we sometimes miss the psychological point. Some are not reachable through discussion at all due to their ego completely disregarding the subconscious, an only literal type of thinking, an entrapment of huge magnitude by their own psyche and only through their last moments before ceasing do they realize or understand, in the flashing of their life before their eyes.

I agree that political correctness is trash but you must understand and I know you do that they do not understand and they cannot be fully blamed for that due to their being indoctrinated, a lot of times through childhood and when they are still gullible, they disregard the subconscious, the intuition or what they deem “magic”, the natural power of the psyche and seeking/understanding of wisdom. I believe they should be tested, but you must be humble in doing such due to the primal instincts embedded in us all, especially more so when one is thinking in literal sense or only one type of specific context. We must understand that they do not understand and the why, who, what, when, how of this.

I agree that the “offense” is created by the individual perception of lacking understanding of diverse context/thought and insecurity but since you understand this and I understand this we have the power and responsibility in trying to create curiosity in them to seek independent education. Since we understand a lot of individuals are blinded by smoke and mirrors that the ego manifests as truth, we also know the proper way in reaching them to try and offer help, the issue is when we waste too much time trying to reach them to come past their egotistical manner of thought. That is when one may choose to turn and leave or if they care about that person and have hope for them they keep trying to use different contexts, analogies, etc, to discover the way they think outside of a “literal” only sense and to try and create some sort of relation between idea which may link two individuals (agreement).

Overall I do agree with you about some or most individuals being this way objectively, I am just stating what I personally deem the best method for trying to get an individual trapped by ego to think. If they resort to fallacy in debate then you can see you have won due to their anger, insecurity about that idea due to it being an unknown truth one’s subconscious may understand. This is a sign of making progress, the first step. The second step is setting them on the path of proving you wrong or an embedded competition/curiosity, the archetype of the “rebel” in a sense.

I view the ignorant differently than the idiot.

To me the ignorant is someone who still possesses curiosity and their spark not lost but only lacks understanding of their knowing.

An idiot is someone who is consumed by tyrannical ego completely and becomes willfully ignorant due to their literal sense only type thought process. They liveth in death and it shalt be their food.

How would you proceed then? Of course, it’s true, in more general terms, human beings are superficial as hell, and it’s all up with them most of the time as long as the multitude shares, in the main, their manner of making empty noises as though to pretend understanding.

I’m not interested in debate. But in clearing up the obstacles to investigation. The whole talk of “fallacy” is an obstacle. It implies that rules are to think for us. Instead of thinking. That made a certain sense, for instance, in the disputations, which were collective research into the truth, of the medievals, because they had a shared goal, were working together, and moreover understood that the fallacy was only relative, and simply a matter of the person involved. For instance, if I speak of a “question begging”, it means only that I don’t accept a premise, and I want to alert the other investigator that they are going on without me. It is never a question of simply a “fallacy” in the sense that this is said in academic and in scientism circles. No such exists for thinking people. Things make sense, or they don’t, that is so. But, it is on the basis of thinking genuinely, not pointing to some rule that then is the measure of the subject matter, rather than letting the subject matter be its own measure.

But, this is very harsh. And repudiates all concessions through courage and superlative effort to the not throwing pearls rule. Rather like not cutting open the belly of a pig, standing shivering in the American snow, and so not letting the red blood spell out their condition, even the most painful way to truth is blocked, since it is supposed to be because of a lack in their innate faculties, and not for the sake of avoiding the nuisance of not being understood. Though, I must admit I have noticed this recalcitrance of character as what is not deliberate but unchosen and constitutional.