Animalism, Earthism

I don’t buy it. He’s no different than 13 years ago. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153476

That’s a good thread btw.

He’s an absolutist/objectivist/Nietzschean fundamentalist/whatever you wanna call it. Always has been and apparently always will be.

I can only assume you mean to refer to this one concession that you posted while I was writing my post:

Between the time I started writing and the time I pressed submit, I apologise profusely for not checking what has thus far been flat-out raging against that which you can’t/won’t understand - and simply putting words in the mouths of others.

I had had no prior indication that you were going to randomly provide the least bit of honesty at that time, I am sorry.

Yes the capitalist is after money, I am so glad you admit this. Any creation, which is more often not present in the Capitalist but in the people he hires to realise the way in which he wants to make money, which is often the same way that others have been doing already, is no less present in the Socialist - however much you insist it isn’t. You can tell other people how they think until you’re blue in the face. More often than you seem to respect, it is the Socialist grafting in his basement to create, but lacking the funds to realise his efforts, and knowing this is the case for countless others who would otherwise be able to contribute their creations but cannot due to the demands of the capitalist system that they must waste their time and energy monkeying away for a pittance for someone else. So inefficient - and most likely intentionally so, because those benefiting don’t want the competition. “Perfect competition”, the classical liberal ideal would even things out, even if everyone was all better off as a result, but “fortunately” the capitalist system keeps down the competition as much as it can.

The Socialist can in fact be more inclined to want to create and contribute with no thought of reward. I am first hand testimony so don’t you dare tell me I am not what I am.

The reality imposed on them by the Capitalist system must eventually dawn on them, however, that they cannot give freely out of love - they must demand that others give to them in exchange for what they offer - the last thing they want to do. They are often not fit for the capitalist environment of demanding things in return for a contribution, and sometimes a non-Capitalist system of distribution is all that can work.

Socialists come in other shapes and sizes as well: for example they can volunteer to help out a cause and find their hard work is barely compensated enough to live the most basic of lives, irrespective of the effort that they put in, and even though employers can clearly afford more generosity. They are being taken advantage of due to their more giving and loving nature - by Capitalists. In my workplace, I see workers stressed out of their heads all day every day, before and after “official” working hours, meanwhile the upper echelons casually trot around, laughing and joking, on their phones, and occasionally having a chat in meetings. I am to suppose that their sheer love and creativity is so intensely packed into the short amounts of time that they’re actually working, that they can afford all this leisure, and us workers simply can’t imagine the magnitude of their next-level abilities.

There are so many counter examples to your myopic and generalised accusations, where you would have vast swathes of a population be reduced to one simple dismissal that just so happens to embody the worse case scenario imagined by the biased accuser who clearly never even attempted to understand the people unto whom he projects that which he probably just hates in himself.

“it’s human nature to invent ways to produce more abundantly and efficiently,”

Well listen, if this is the level of lazyness you’re gonna bring into this, then I’m gonna stop trying too.

Soviet Russia what?!?

You’ve been trying? :open_mouth:

don’t… you… dare, jakob milikowski.

you see what he did there, dipper? he’s using my own guy against me. that sonofabitch will stop at nothing. until this day i hadn’t thought jakob was capable of sinking to such lows… but now i know. i didn’t want to believe it when i saw it. i thought ‘this is just a typo… he was trying to say beta kappa or something.’ i even refreshed the page, thinking i was hallucinating.

now you listen to me, jakob milikowski. frank was a musician and composer, not a philosopher. you know damn well what you’re doing is not fair. how was he to know? he grew up during the red scare when that cock sucker McCarthy had everybody stirred up about the evils of communism. and in fact, frank saw through that ass rocket and knew he was up to no good. want proof… go to 8:59. now i sincerely believe that had frank learned about socialism in a different environment, he’d not find it as reprehensible. but in any case, duddin’t matter where you put frank. communism, capitalism, feudalism, whatever. he’d be doing the same thing, because whoever was in charge would see to it that the maestro was given all the resources he needed to compose.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdncUKMFPiI[/youtube]

soviets, dude. worker’s councils. not the country… the governing structures that oversaw production. tighten up, rengel.

Frank said JE Hoover and Raygun should be on birdshit mtn too. I know zip about zappa, so I don’t get the anti-socialist allusion. (Seems a sharp guy tho)

“because whoever was in charge would see to it that the maestro was given all the resources he needed to compose.”

Yes, that is totally how censorship regimes in communist states works. They totally would have been like, just: “listen to that guy. Give him whatever he needs! In fact, half rations for the miners so we can get him the guitar today.”

Iss like… I know it FEELS good, but you must still think young one, no matter how seductive she is, always you must force yourself to think!

I’m… I’m a little stunned. Do you have any actual grasp of how soviets worked? Or is all history capitalist propaganda?

this is how it would go down. mao, stalin, castro and the rest of the team would be seated in the theater loge. zappa’s musicians would be ready at their stations. the lights would dim, and the maestro would enter the stage as a hush fell over the audience. he would approach the marshall stack centered beside bozzio’s drum kit and pick up the golden baton. for a brief moment he would study it, turning it over in his hands and rubbing it’s smooth finish. once he felt satisfied with the quality of the instrument, he would turn to face his musicians, who now stand at attention. the band is ready. frank would slowly turn and look up at the loge. stalin would raise his hand and gesture for the band to proceed. after one last inspection, frank would issue the command: ‘achtung!’, and the band would come to life. within seconds the theater would be totally consumed by it’s energy, staring in amazement, entranced by the strange new dynamic sounds. it would take only one song, and the nation would never be the same again. institutions for the study of his music would be built, orders for mandatory participation of theater performances would be issued to all citizens, and december 21rst would become a international holiday.

one song, rengel. just one… and not even the real hard stuff. just the easy, teenage new york version is all it would take to revolutionize the entire world:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA_F87l7o_k[/youtube]

Right, sorry, those guys (and the current ones) weren’t REALLY communists…

holy shit…

Please, do tell us about the soviets.

Enlighten me.

FIFY. You’re welcome.

The soviets, right here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=194777

well if you’re going to put a gun to my head, i guess i have to.

pedro I rengel (cocks shotgun): “what do you know about the soviets?”

“Sounds like its literal opposite, Authoritarianism” - says every pro-capitalist ever.

“Sounds like communist theory, whose Authoritarian ways have been proven to fail in practice” - says every pro-capitalist ever.

Oh. I thought you were referring to actual things that existed.

Could it exist?

I hold that the world is will to power and nothing besides
Capitalism and Socialism both are will to power, expressions.
Socialism is an idea, I hold, and Capitalism a spontaneous phenomenon, an emerging, phusis, the ancient Greek notion of nature as an unfolding-ruling.

Capitalism is harnessed by hard souls, hard on themselves, it is the prerogative of the few. This much is true, though I dont know about the percentages. Id say more like 20 percent of the people on Earth hold wealth that can be spent freely to an effect on other peoples livelihoods. As I make a point of mentioning I do not think this money is being spent wisely. Musk is one of the few who makes a point of putting himself out there with all his power and being cool on behalf of humanity in the pursuit of a cleaner planet and a wider scope of operations as mankind.

Nietzsche spoke of higher men, and then of the superman, as the project of these higher men.
Socialism as an idea has also involved higher men, and women for that matter, it has been respectable enough as a competitor, it has struck a mighty blow on Capitalism, designating it as an ideology, degrading it to merely a form of politics, rather than a naturally emergent prospering. It is now compelled to agitate against Socialism as if Socialism is not a form of itself.

I see Socialism as the shadow self of world capitalism. It is a naturally emergent phenomenon among those parts of human nature that can not take care of themselves, let alone others.
What it really is is an appeal, from the “weak” to the wealthy to spend their powers more to the benefit of this or that portion of the world which is sick and cant help itself. This portion has received a power from Marx to organize in a faith. It has taken on the substance of divine ordinance and people simply bow to its ideas like boulders they carry and toss around, blindly except to the tricky mud below their feet, which they interpret as The World.

There will be a mass religion built of Socialist pathos, it is hard to imagine a world without it. The question is what the capitalistic class will be like at that point. Nietzsche foresaw family-unions controlling the educated masses of the west like clay, and hints that the purpose of this will be the superman.

I guess my point is that the world is will to power, not will to consensus.

The is and the ought, and then there is the can.

Is, ought to be, and can be.
the father, the son and the holy spirit.
For all I care.

Capitalism is. Justice ought to be. And something, a third phenomenon, can be.
Not an utopia but an unfolding-mastering.

Something in which justice is seen in relation to merit, as merit is directly literal.
No cushions. Existence as the fast paced dirt rally that it is closer to its physical sources, you need your copilot, and you cant be bothered about much else than the road ahead.
If this is given to everybody, capitalism is complete. The worker will control his destiny and he employs the elements of the world as they employ him.
In the meantime people are still going to be smoking cigars in leather armchairs, projecting the course of self-employed workers in the terms of ancient, established trends and values.
We are at the juncture now, this time is a sole occurrence, a planet is awakening as a single intelligence. Philosophy online, if it is gritty enough, is a pioneering function of this event. This here, in our oil state as designated by the self declared benevolent ruler Carleas, is a cortex.

“I have an idea.”

Ok, that’s good, that’s a definite something. How are you going to execute that idea?

Communist: “Fuck you!”

Capitalist: “Like this and like this and like that, thoough, you know, no battle plan survives contact with the enemy!”

Socialist: “What is an idea?”

The truth is, the communist cannot answer because, no matter how sweet the idea sounds, it is inherently divorced from reality.

Like I can imagine now, prometheous75 thinking how obviously the capitalist is superfluous, how it’s the simplest of thought experiments to imagine workers working together to get shit running as complex and fruitful as a nuclear reactor. But they don’t exist in real life. Actual workers don’t want noneothat. It’s cruel even to try to demand it of him. A worker just wants a nice life with his wife and whatnot. Capitalism can do this, though it takes some building. It is not a perfection, a platonic idea like communism, that comes down from heaven and is implemented. It is built.

The thought experiment is just that, a thought experiment. The soviet is not in fact possible, not feasable, no matter how possible it is. That is the absolute only reason why it hasn’t, why Russian soviets and Lybian workers’ whatevers and Venezuelan colectivos only ever really were ways for the would-be rulers to build deeply vertical command structures to demolish capitalism. That’s all they can ever be. What’s more, that’s all the members of the soviets ever want it or need it to be. That’s life man. That’s facts. That’s truth. And yes, there will always be a percentage, maybe it is Jakob’s 20 or so percent, that will actually be a creative train and be frustrated by the state of soviets. Those people would undoubtedly be better served by accepting his brothers as the tranquil working men they want to be and take it upon themselves to build something beautiful that is built only on themselves, not some idealized collective.

The people will love you for it, and you will discover that they are right to love you for it, and you will love them back. Cause people are cool. It’s just, you know, not everybody is a Dr Dre.

Can I just say, Jakob, that your past two responses on this thread infintely surpass anything I’ve read that you’ve said since I returned, thank you.