New Discovery

Again, there’s my bottom line here and yours.

Mine: how we define determinism in a wholly determined universe is how we could only ever have defined it. Just as any gap between how we define it and the way it really is reflects nature’s way.

Yours: that I’m still trying to grapple with.

From my perspective: There you go again!

We were never really free not to have been through this. But somehow the natural fact of it is still the embodiment of my flaw and not yours.

Now, I’m not arguing that we are either free or not free. I’m merely pointing out that here and now I don’t have access to either an argument or a demonstration that convinces me one way or the other. Why? Because, like you, I don’t have access to a complete understanding of existence itself.

So, everything that we do is necessarily in sync with nature’s way. But, unlike dominos, we “choose” to be in sync with nature. Even though that “choice” must in turn be subsumed in everything.

And how would the “definition that you are using” – “choosing” – not also be subsumed in everything?

The laws of nature would compel particular brains to define determinism “normally”. Just as the laws of nature compel my brain not to. Just as how your brain defines an “accurate” definition of determinism is compelled by whatever set into motion the laws of nature.

My brain is wholly determined by the laws of matter. And that would seem to include my brain ignoring your important adjunct. My brain cannot freely choose to lead the horse to water. The horse’s brain cannot freely choose to drink the water.

Instead, nature unfolds such that I was never not able to lead it to water and it was never not able to drink or not drink it. Only the horse’s brain is not able to reconfigure its “choice” into a philosophical quandary like mine “chooses” to.

If you could never not say that 2 + 2 = 5, and someone else could never not correct you, and you could never not have appreciated it…

We’re just stuck here. I am still – necessarily – at a loss regarding your own – necessary – rendition of determinism defined.

Nor does it take away the fact that any correction that is made was only ever going to be.

And the only reason I was not able to understand how you are using the term “responsibility” was because I was never able to understand it. Nature had other plans. Plans that are reflected only in her immutable laws. Laws that we still have no complete understanding of.

In either context, what this person knows is a natural fact.

Thus:

That is how I would put it. We veer or do not veer because we must. We want or do not want to injure someone because we must. The consequences are what they are because that is quite simply nature’s way.

Nothing at all that unfolds is other than as nature compelled it to.

Bingo. If I could allow you to show me…". But: however I want to sustain what I construe to be my greater satisfaction here is all at one with nature itself.

Then back to you concuring with me…

There is no final analysis here other than that which is necessarily in sync with nature unfolding as it must. “I” am just along for the ride.

Again, from my own necessary frame of mind you have yet to demonstrate to me that this “knowledge” is anything other than an argument – a world of words – wholly in sync with the internal logic of its own assumptions. Not only am I compelled to “choose” not to read it but I am compelled in turn to note that your own assumptions regarding “peace and brotherhood” in the future are just existential contraptions, rooted in dasein and conflicting goods. And, as well, in the assumption that we do have some measure of autonomy in choosing to understand them as we do.

I think of myself as unable to determine [conclusively] what I ought to think of myself as here. If my “I” is but an adjunct of my brain is but an adjunct of the laws of nature then these very words that I am “choosing” to type here and now I was never able not to type here and now.

Only my attempts to wrap my head around that are in turn wholly in sync with nature. Or there is some aspect of “I” as “mind” which is somehow able to transcend the laws of nature in a “dualistic” universe where [either through God or No God] “I” am [up to a point] able to choose certain things of my own volition.

Either because I pick only that which I could never have not picked or, given some degree of autonomy, I pick that which here and now seems more reasonable.

And being better off depends on my own existential understanding of a particular situation construed subjectively from the perspective of “I” as dasein.

It’s not a flaw to say determinism in a wholly determined universe is how we could only ever be (let’s leave the definition out for a second). But the problem is you keep repeating it, as if I am denying this fact.

It is not a prerequisite to be all knowing. What you are implying is that we will never know the truth of our nature because no one can ever get close to understanding the meaning of existence itself.

Nothing. We are all obeying the law of greater satisfaction when meaningful differences between two or more alternatives are compared.

We don’t choose to be in sync with nature, as if we have a choice not to be in sync. We can’t help but be in sync with nature. It’s beyond our control.

It is. I am only clarifying two things. One, we are always moving in the direction that pushes us away from a dissatisfying position to a more satisfying position every single moment of our lives. This means we can’t choose what we, not others, believe is worse for ourselves when something better, in our eyes, is offered as an alternative. Two, nothing but nothing can force us to do anything against our will, or without our consent, not nature, not God, not anything therefore it is incorrect to say “I was made to do something against my will” because nothing has the power to do that.

That’s true, your brain is compelled to define determinism one way, and mine another, but they are not that different in the most important sense (i.e., could not do otherwise) and do not have to create a stumbling block.

The horse’s brain can’t freely choose to drink the water, but he also can’t freely choose not to drink the water. The only adjunct is that the horse can’t be forced to drink the water (barring being forced physically by being held down, which is not what I’m referring to) if he doesn’t want to. There is nothing inconsistent here.

That is true. Life moves in one direction only (toward greater satisfaction even if it’s just scratching an itch), which is why no living creature has a free choice.

Nothing could not be as it is. I was only saying that most people, when shown they are incorrect about something will want to know how to correct their mistake. Their desire to fix their error would give them greater satisfaction than not fixing it.

No one is disputing this.

We do have an understanding of determinism. We don’t have to have a complete understanding of all of nature’s immutable laws to understand some of nature’s immutable laws. Determinism, the way it’s accurately defined, is one of them. What lies beyond this understanding is fantastic because it has the power to prevent war, crime and poverty on a global scale.

Regardless of what a person believes regarding nature’s purpose, the cars piling up and the human brains that brought this situation (apart from dominoes crashing where there is no choice whatsoever) will be prevented from coming into existence as part of the “unfolding as they must” deterministic process.

True, and as we understand how to prevent conflict and create cooperation, this unfolding is also nothing other than as nature compels it to be. Today, some want to injure as they must. Tomorrow, they will be compelled to not injure as they must. Same nature, but veering in a different direction as it must.

I’m having difficulty with this because what you are saying in so many words is back to having no choice because nature (as if nature is something other than ourselves) is forcing our choices. Obviously, the future is a continuation of antecedent events, our heredity, and our experiences.

We are just along for the ride but we do play a part in how nature unfolds. None of the unfolding “as it must” is of our own free will but that does not mean we simply do nothing, nor does it mean we don’t find great satisfaction in finding a sense of purpose based on our talents and what we’re called to do.

There are no assumptions here, and this is not logic.

Man has the ability to think, to create, to observe, and to discover. Call it autonomy if you like. The label you give it doesn’t matter. It’s the reality behind the label that counts. I’m not sure why you call the claim that peace and brotherhood are within our reach, just assumptions. You have no basis for this comment other than your opinion and your belief that peace is impossible. You are dead wrong.

No, the problem is that, given my own understanding of determinism, I can never not keep repeating it as long as repeating it is wholly in sync with the laws of matter.

So “flaws” are merely built right into this exchange. Whereas in an autonomous universe flaws result from you and I having the actual capacity to get something right…but one of us still keeps getting it wrong.

I’m merely pointing out the obvious: That, here and now, neither you nor I can connect the dots between the truth about determinism and the manner in which cause and effect itself is wholly explanable given a complete understanding of existence.

Then the part about the future here is either going to be what it could only ever be or [somehow] human brains/minds have the inherent capacity to shape that future one way rather than another.

Then it is back to be rephrasing that and you being entirely in agreement:

As though our “greater satisfaction” is not in turn a necessary aspect of nature unfolding like clockwork – with or without a clockmaker.

It’s “beyond our control” to be in sync with nature. We “can’t help it”. But somehow that’s not the same as a domino being in sync with it because dominos can’t “choose” to be.

If there are stumbling blocks how are they not entirely of nature’s making? Again, they are not stumbling blocks in the manner in which autonomous human beings view them. Why? Because autonomous human beings are able to actually get around them of their own volition. They accomplish this, whereas entirely determined men and women merely “accomplish” it.

Hmm. That sounds familiar. Just as the points I raise sound familiar to you. So, the “stumbling block” here is either within our capacity to move beyond or it’s not. Meaning that if one of us does make a breakthrough and the other finally “sees the light” it was only because that was always going to be the case.

Nature prevails! Again!!

If determinism is embedded in that which explains a complete understanding of all of nature’s immutable laws, how can we have a complete understanding of one without a complete understanding of the other? That makes no sense.

Here I keep coming back to this:

It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe.

This continues to boggle my mind. All this stuff about “free will” in a universe where the “immutable laws of matter” relect less than 5% of the universe.

Or the multiverse?

Sure, shrug that part off. That’s what all folks who have these grand understandings of all things do, in my view.

For example:

From my frame of mind, it is the believing in things like this itself that propels you into the future. A whole new progressive world if only others would grasp the author’s points. Or, perhaps: If only others could grasp his points. In a world where nature and nature alone decides these things. Ultimately.

How we both agree and disagree about the very same things! That’s what fascinates me. In many ways, you reflect what I imagine a wholly determined universe is. But then we imagine the consequences of it in very different ways.

The future is as it must be but it must be more progressive if nature compells enough people to read the author’s book. This makes sense to you in a way that does not to me. I’m not saying that you are wrong, only that I still have no capacity [autonomous or not] to grasp it here and now.

Thus:

I’m not arguing that men and women here on earth don’t choose behaviors that propel the future in one or another direction, only that in a determined universe as I understand it here and now, they have no option, no capacity to actually choose anything other than what nature’s laws compel them to “choose”. At least in our 5% of the universe.

From my frame of mind, to say that human beings have the capacity to think, to create, to observe, and to discover is merely to acknowledge that you were compelled to think, feel and say that here and now. And that, in turn, how I and others react to it is no less compelled by the laws of nature. And that whatever I call it I was never able to not call it. And thus the “basis” for all of this is determinism.

And I’m not saying that peace is impossible. I am merely pointing out that it will be predicated on those who have the capacity to enforce particular sets of behaviors in particular contexts.

Hitler might have conquered the world way back when and the world war would have been over. Peace would prevail.

Not what some would call a “progressive” peace, but peace none the less.

But in an autonomous universe we would at least have the capacity to judge that peace from conflicting moral and political narratives. Whereas in a wholly determined universe Hitler was no more flawed in his thinking than those who fought against him.

The Holocaust simple was what it could only ever have been.

And it is the implications of this that [I would imagine] most deeply disturb the free will folks among us.

duplicate

you probably ought to stop reading that book, peacegirl, because if it’s responsible for putting into your head this confusing version of compatibalism that you seem to be espousing (without knowing it), you’re going to either a) remain in a state of confusion indefinitely, or b) hit yourself in the head once/if you finally understand how all this is nonsense, and curse yourself for the time you wasted.

what iambiguous is saying is nauseatingly simple to understand and i can’t imagine why you aren’t getting it. all these factors which you introduce as things free from causality, i.e., ‘desire for greater satisfaction’ or ‘desiring one choice over another’, are just as much subject to casually sufficient antecedent conditions as anything else in the universe. if determinism is true, NOTHING is ‘free’… not your desires, not your particular conditions for greater satisfaction, not your deciding one choice over another. everything going on in your brain is compelled to be in a particular state, a particular way, by the state of events that preceded it, and so on to infinity (or a first cause, if you want to go that route… but i wouldn’t).

so when you think to yourself ‘gosh i think i should choose x rather than y because it would lead to greater satisfaction’, you aren’t free to decide you would be more satisfied by choosing x. you have become conditioned to be more satisfied when x, and those forces that engendered in you the experience of satisfaction when x, were never under your control… much less a matter of you choice.

this book your are reading is pushing a compatibalist idea that was refuted a hundred years ago or more, and there is nothing new or groundbreaking in it, i can promise you (without even reading it).

a much more interesting subject would be a politically oriented discussion about what would happen, and how it would happen, if the doctrine of determinism were literally taught in schools and became as commonplace as the belief in gravity. that’s what would catch my eye; the nervous fervor of the world that would result from the official abolition of the belief in freewill. i’d buy a ticket for that event in a minute. imagine the mayhem that would ensue (hopefully). it’d be the kind of monumental paradigm shift that would literally shake civilization. something that would force radical political changes or usher in a return to barbarism. in either case, we’d finally get some action worthy of attention.

let’s assume a ‘type physicalism’ approach to the matter of volition. all mental events are correlated to physical events in the brain. this is a common sense empirically sound position, but there’s problems with it. one of which is the question; do physical events in the brain cause mental events, or are they merely contiguous to them (we ask this because of hume, the inglorious bastard with his induction fallacy). if we supposed they were only contiguous (or parallel), we’d have to replace one kind of causality with another since we’d still have to explain what ‘made’ the mental event happen.

hold that question for a moment and look at the model we now have. we are postulating two kinds of ontologically distinct substances; one is the physical world, and the other is… whatever human ‘agency’ is made of. each distinct substance would be operating by its own kind of causality… but these two kinds of causality couldn’t ever intersect, couldn’t ever affect each other. we have a ball that gets put into motion by physical force x, and we have a human being that is put into motion by ‘agency’ force x (that somehow mysteriously ‘touches’ the brain to make a mental event occur which then causes you to raise your arm). even though there are two different forces working here, there are still forces operating… so whatever compels the ‘agency’ force to happen is just another kind of causality. in that case, the ‘agency’ isn’t free either… even though it isn’t affected by the physical causality operating in the world.

see what’s just happened? we’ve found a problem with emergent materialism regarding the nature of the causality through/by which the ‘agency’ acts. so even when we don’t reduce mental events to effects of physical events, we still have to explain how the mental events come about, as well as the mysterious causal connection the mental event has with the physical substance of the brain.

because of hume, we can’t logically deduce that causality is happening (one event follows another, that’s it. doesn’t mean one ‘caused’ the other). okay fuck it. we’ll let hume have that one. but now watch what happens when you take the indeterminist position; every single event that occurs, occurs spontaneously and without being conditioned by anything else. but here’s the kicker. it keeps on happening like this. it’d be one thing to say a finite set of spontaneous events occurred and then stopped… but quite another to watch a series of indeterminate events occur over and over and over again. something must be causing this series to occur, and the cause can’t be from any of the individual things happening. it’d be a cause that oversees the entire system of indeterminate events.

does hume really want to take this position? i doubt it. so i think kant’s synthetic a priori category of causality is the best we can do. we can’t ‘experience’ causality, but at the same time, if it isn’t real, we’ve got a whole nuther set of conceptual antinomies to contend with. so we logically infer kant’s synthetic a priori category of causality to avoid this mess.

so we’re back at type-physicalism because now we can logically infer that physical events cause mental events. now we’ve got to ask; are mental events epiphenomena? that is, can mental events cause physical events. wait… that’s a trick question. remember, we just concluded that there aren’t mental events, only physical events, a certain type of which we call ‘mental’ events. so then this is a non-problem at this point.

all that’s left to do is explain how freewill is impossible in the model we are using now. we know that all mental events (thoughts, feelings, notions, whatever) follow physical events in the brain. we might as well say ‘are caused by’ so we don’t get caught up in that indeterminist problem pointed out earlier. well then it’s simple. ionized potassium particles travel along an axon and charge an action potential in a dendrite that either fires and produces a muscle contraction, or not… and you don’t ‘choose’ whether or not it will. if it does fire, you raise your arm and think ‘hey i just chose to do this’, and that mental event is also part of the set of physical events that involved the action potential that resulted in the raised arm.

nothing is random here, nothing is indeterminate, nothing is free.

That’s where you’re confused. You can stop repeating it as long as you want to stop repeating it, in the direction of greater satisfaction. It is giving you greater satisfaction to say the same thing over and over. You are using this as an excuse by saying the repetitiveness of your posts has already been embedded with the laws of matter, preventing you from making another choice. This is false.

You are incorrect. You and me may not be able to communicate, but that does not mean the truth of determinism cannot be understood. I maintain that this concept is not only wholly explainable but extremely significant.

We have the inherent capacity to shape the future because we are able to analyze, compute, and develop our world, but this capacity is not free since we can only move in one direction.

We are part of nature and its laws. We cannot escape from it, which is why will is not free. But that does not mean it is correct to say we were caused, for example, to shoot someone since nothing has the power to make us do this without our permission, or desire.

[i]The fact that will is not
free demonstrates that man, as part of nature or God, has been
unconsciously developing at a mathematical rate and during every
moment of his progress was doing what he had to do because he had
no free choice. But this does not mean that he was caused to do
anything against his will, for the word cause, like choice and past, is
very misleading as it implies that something other than man himself
is responsible for his actions. Four is not caused by two plus two, it
is that already. As long as history has been recorded, these two
opposing principles were never reconciled until now. The amazing
thing is that this ignorance, this conflict of ideas, ideologies, and
desires, theology’s promulgation of free will, the millions that
criticized determinism as fallacious, was exactly as it was supposed to
be. It was impossible for man to have acted differently because the
mankind system is obeying this invariable law of satisfaction which
makes the motions of all life just as harmonious as the solar system;
but these systems are not caused by, they are these laws.

“Can you clarify this a little bit more?”

“Certainly. In other words, no one is compelling a person to work
at a job he doesn’t like or remain in a country against his will. He
actually wants to do the very things he dislikes simply because the
alternative is considered worse and he must choose something to do
among the various things in his environment, or else commit suicide.
Was it humanly possible to make Gandhi and his followers do what
they did not want to do when unafraid of death which was judged,
according to their circumstances, the lesser of two evils? Therefore,
when any person says he was compelled to do what he did against his
will, that he didn’t want to but had to — and innumerable of our
expressions say this — he is obviously confused and unconsciously
dishonest with himself and others because everything man does to
another is done only because he wants to do it, done to be humorous,
of his own free will, which only means that his preference gave him
greater satisfaction at that moment of time, for one reason or
another; but remember, this desire of one thing over another is a
compulsion beyond control for which he cannot be blamed. All I am
doing is clarifying your terms so that you are not confused, but make
sure you understand this mathematical difference before proceeding
further.”
[/i]

That’s what I just said. We can’t help but move in the direction of greater satisfaction which is why our choices are beyond our control.

The end result is the same (we have no free will), but you can’t use the excuse that nature forced a choice on you like a domino falling down with no will of its own. IOW, a person can’t say he shot someone since his choice was wholly embedded. Only looking back in hindsight can a person say he had no choice, not before.

They are of nature’s making. I am just pointing out that this stumbling block is causing problems because you don’t seem interested in any other definition but the conventional one, which is causing a lack of understanding. I will repeat: Once you make a choice, it could not have been otherwise, but nothing has the power (not nature, not God, not your mother, not your father) to force a choice on you, therefore you cannot say that nature caused someone to rob a bank. He robbed a bank because he wanted to; it gave him greater satisfaction under his circumstances. This is an important distinction which you won’t understand until it is explained.

We cannot separate ourselves from the laws of our nature. There is no way we can escape our heredity, environment, experiences, predispositions, life circumstances, where we were born, our culture, etc. which in turn influence our choices each and every moment of time. But you cannot say that these things “caused” you to make a choice. They created the conditions that led you to desiring one choice over another.

Obviously!

As it always has! :slight_smile:

You’re right, it makes no sense. Who in the world said that determinism is that which explains a complete understanding of "all of nature’s immutable laws? It is true that the universe is not a free for all, but again the understanding of what this means in terms of our nature does not mean we are not free to choose that which we want, not what nature (as you place it) demands or forces upon us.

I’m not shrugging it off; I just don’t know how it negates what has been observed on planet Earth, which to me is more important than any other theory about multiverses or life on other planets, or even what the universe is made of. You’re throwing in everything but the kitchen sink.

We decide things. Nature is what we are a part of. Please stop separating nature from our ability to choose, as if it’s a separate entity that we have no say in.

Nature meaning ourselves. Nature unfolds the way it is compelled to, which only means our choices unfold in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is nature unfolding as it must.

The consequences are part of the stream of nature’s law, but due to the fact that we are not dominoes, we can change our course and still be subjected to nature’s law. I don’t quite understand what you disagree with.

It’s very simple. It is what it is. People will move in the direction of interest or they won’t, all in keeping with deterministic law. Nature cannot compel you to read the book anymore than Gandhi could have chosen to give up his fight for freedom. :-k

That is true iambiguous, but we are not dominoes that have no choice. It seems like you close your ears to anything I’m saying and you revert right back to the same refrain over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. The repetition doesn’t change the fact that we get to choose, although our choice is never free.

That is true but why keep repeating it? You’re preaching to the choir.

I get that. It’s not a matter of being flawed in the deepest sense knowing that the Holocaust had to occur based on the
sign of the times. The world was ripe for such a happening. Hitler has now become a symbol for evil. The truth is that he
could not have chosen any differently than what he did. The author of Decline and Fall of All Evil was a Jew yet he was
quite clear in his understanding that Hitler and his philosophy of hatred against the Jews was based on his
ability to find a scapegoat.

[i] The same nature that permits the most heinous crimes, and
all the other evils of human relation, is going to veer so sharply in a
different direction that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and
their subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in
such a way that no more wars will ever again be possible. If this is
difficult to conceive, does it mean you have a desire to dismiss what
I have to say as nonsense? If it does, then you have done what I tried
to prevent, that is, jumped to a premature conclusion. And the
reason must be that you judged such a permanent solution as
impossible and therefore not deserving of further consideration, which
is a normal reaction, if anything, when my claims are analyzed and
compared to our present understanding of human nature. War seems
to be an inescapable feature of the human condition which can only
be subdued, not eradicated. But we must insert a question mark
between the empirical fact that a feature is characteristic of human
life as we know it, and the empirical claim that this feature is a
sociological inevitability. Another reason that war is viewed as an
unfortunate and intractable aspect of human existence is due to
suffering itself, which sadly robs its victims of the ability to dream or
have the breadth of vision to even contemplate the possibility of peace.
The evil in the world has so constricted man’s imagination that his
mind has become hardened, and he shows contempt for anyone who
dares to offer a solution because such claims appear ludicrous and
unfounded.

[/i]

duplicate

You’re so off-base it’s ridiculous. This is NOT a version of compatibilism

It’s not me that’s not getting it, it’s you! I have always agreed that nothing is free from causality, but the word cause is misleading for it implies that something other than you yourself is forcing a choice upon you in advance. That is called a modal fallacy. This may help a little even though this professor believes that because we’re not forced, we have free will. Lots of people are confused on this issue.

[i]Proposal Three: The truth of propositions does not ‘make’ events happen (occur).

Consider: My wearing a short-sleeved shirt today [Oct. 28] is what makes (the proposition expressed by) “Swartz is wearing a short-sleeved shirt on Oct. 28, 1997” true. It is not the other way round. Logical fatalism confuses the semantic (truth-making) order. It makes it appear that the truth of a proposition ‘causes’ an event to occur. It is, rather, that the event’s occurring tomorrow ‘makes’ (but does not cause) the proposition to be true today. This is not ‘backwards causation’: the relation between an event and the truth of the proposition describing that event is not a causal relation whatever. It is a semantic relation.

The logic of the preceding paragraph can perhaps be made apparent by switching the example to one of speaking about the past rather than the future.

John Lennon was shot and killed in 1980. Let’s suppose a group of ten persons is arguing about the year of his death. Alice says that it was 1976; Betty, that it was 1977; Cathy, that it was 1978; Denise, that it was 1979; Edith, that it was 1980; Freda, that it was 1981; etc.

Of the ten claims made, only Edith’s is true. The other nine are false. Now ask yourself: Does Edith’s making a true claim today (about the year of Lennon’s death) account for Lennon’s killing? Did Edith’s asserting a truth today about Lennon’s killing somehow or other ‘force’ Mark David Chapman to fire five bullets into Lennon’s chest? Of course not. Now what if the year of the discussion were 1975? Alex says, “Lennon will be killed in 1976.” Bellamy says that it will happen in 1977. Charles, that it will happen in 1978. Damien, that it will happen in 1979. Eduardo, that it will happen in 1980. Frank, that it will happen in 1981. Graham, that it will happen in 1982. Etc. Of the ten discussants, one, namely Eduardo, gets it ‘right’; the other nine make false predictions. Does Eduardo’s true prediction (in 1975) somehow or other ‘force’ Mark David Chapman to fire five bullets into Lennon’s chest five years later, in 1980? Of course not.

Similarly you and I can make all sorts of predictions – some true, some false, some on the basis of excellent evidence (“There will be a lunar eclipse on Sept. 19, 2499”), some on the basis of no evidence whatever (“Simon Fraser University will remove all tuition fees in 1999”) – but those that are true do not ‘force’ the predicted events to occur.

sfu.ca/~swartz/freewill1.htm#part2[/i]

Ambiguous keeps saying the laws of matter made him repeat his comments. These laws don’t have the power to do that unless he desires to repeat his comments in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is also beyond his control. His idea of autonomy takes him out of necessity, into contingency. But the interesting point here is that “greater satisfaction” is not based on a modal fallacy, therefore the distinction he is making between autonomy and the laws of matter are contrived based on an inaccurate definition. Our movement in the direction of satisfaction is part of our brain state, true, but the distinction I’m trying to make is that nothing other than OURSELVES (the “I” that distinguish us from others) can force us to make a particular choice…where the agent or self has no say. That is what the present definition of determinism implies. Once again, you can’t say nature forced me to make the choice therefore I’m not responsible. You are not responsible because you could not have chosen otherwise based on your heredity and environment. This is important because it has to do with who was responsible for making said choice, not morally responsible which goes back to the free will (or the “could have done otherwise”) that compatibilists use to justify blame and punishment.

That’s exactly right. Think about it this way: If you are not free to choose “y” because it gives you less satisfaction under the circumstances, you are not free to choose “x”. You 're correct that the word choice is misleading because it implies we can choose x or y equally, which cannot be done when we are comparing meaningful differences. This IS an invariable law.

I know you haven’t read it by what you’re saying, so how can you be so sure that there is nothing new here? I can promise you this is groundbreaking and it has nothing to do with compatibilism. Compatibilism tries to have its cake and eat it too by defining the word “free” in a way that does not grant us free will at all. It’s just their way of defining a word to make it seem compatible, but it is anything but. It states that the person who was not under duress was free not to do what he did, which is absolutely false. This is the antithesis of everything the book is demonstrating to be true . To repeat: Just because we do not have anything constraining our choice externally (like a gun to our head) or internally (like having OCD), does not in any way give us the freedom of choice that would justify blame and just desert. It is true that when we have a gun to our head, it appears that we don’t have a choice because one choice (to do what the person wants and not get shot) is so superior than the alternative (getting shot) that no hesitation is required to decide which choice is preferable, whereas other choices need a more careful consideration. But this does not take away from the fact that in both cases we have a choice, although never a free one.

[i]The government holds each person responsible to obey the laws
and then punishes those who do not while absolving itself of all
responsibility; but how is it possible for someone to obey that which
under certain conditions appears to him worse? It is quite obvious
that a person does not have to steal if he doesn’t want to, but under
certain conditions he wants to, and it is also obvious that those who
enforce the laws do not have to punish if they don’t want to, but both
sides want to do what they consider better for themselves under the
circumstances.

The Russians didn’t have to start a communistic
revolution against the tyranny that prevailed; they were not compelled
to do this; they wanted to. The Japanese didn’t have to attack us at
Pearl Harbor; they wanted to. We didn’t have to drop an atomic
bomb among their people, we wanted to. It is an undeniable
observation that man does not have to commit a crime or hurt
another in any way, if he doesn’t want to. The most severe tortures,
even the threat of death, cannot compel or cause him to do what he
makes up his mind not to do. Since this observation is
mathematically undeniable, the expression ‘free will,’ which has come
to signify this aspect, is absolutely true in this context because it
symbolizes what the perception of this relation cannot deny, and here
lies in part the unconscious source of all the dogmatism and
confusion since MAN IS NOT CAUSED OR COMPELLED TO
DO TO ANOTHER WHAT HE MAKES UP HIS MIND NOT
TO DO — but that does not make his will free.
In other words, if someone were to say — “I didn’t really want to
hurt that person but couldn’t help myself under the circumstances,”
which demonstrates that though he believes in freedom of the will he
admits he was not free to act otherwise; that he was forced by his
environment to do what he really didn’t want to do, or should he make
any effort to shift his responsibility for this hurt to heredity, God, his
parents, the fact that his will is not free, or something else as the
cause, he is obviously lying to others and being dishonest with himself
because absolutely nothing is forcing him against his will to do what
he doesn’t want to do, for over this, as was just shown, he has
mathematical control.

“It’s amazing, all my life I have believed man’s will is free but for
the first time I can actually see that his will is not free.”
Another friend commented: “You may be satisfied but I’m not.
The definition of determinism is the philosophical and ethical
doctrine that man’s choices, decisions and actions are decided by
antecedent causes, inherited or environmental, acting upon his
character. According to this definition we are not given a choice
because we are being caused to do what we do by a previous event or
circumstance. But I know for a fact that nothing can make me do
what I make up my mind not to do — as you just mentioned a
moment ago. If I don’t want to do something, nothing, not
environment, heredity, or anything else you care to throw in can make
me do it because over this I have absolute control. Since I can’t be
made to do anything against my will, doesn’t this make my will free?
And isn’t it a contradiction to say that man’s will is not free yet
nothing can make him do what he doesn’t want to do?”

“How about that, he brought out something I never would have
thought of.”

All he said was that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t
make him drink, which is undeniable, however, though it is a
mathematical law that nothing can compel man to do to another what
he makes up his mind not to do — this is an extremely crucial point
— he is nevertheless under a compulsion during every moment of his
existence to do everything he does. This reveals, as your friend just
pointed out, that man has absolute control over the former but
absolutely none over the latter because he must constantly move in
the direction of greater satisfaction.

It is true that nothing in the past
can cause what occurs in the present, for all we ever have is the
present; the past and future are only words that describe a deceptive
relation.
Consequently, determinism was faced with an almost
impossible task because it assumed that heredity and environment
caused man to choose evil, and the proponents of free will believed the
opposite, that man was not caused or compelled, ‘he did it of his own
accord; he wanted to do it, he didn’t have to.’ The term ‘free will’
contains an assumption or fallacy for it implies that if man is not
caused or compelled to do anything against his will, it must be
preferred of his own free will. This is one of those logical, not
mathematical conclusions. The expression, ‘I did it of my own free
will’ is perfectly correct when it is understood to mean ‘I did it because
I wanted to; nothing compelled or caused me to do it since I could
have acted otherwise had I desired.’ This expression was necessarily
misinterpreted because of the general ignorance that prevailed for
although it is correct in the sense that a person did something because
he wanted to, this in no way indicates that his will is free. In fact I
shall use the expression ‘of my own free will’ frequently myself which
only means ‘of my own desire.’ Are you beginning to see how words
have deceived everyone?[/i]

What do you think I’m trying to do promethean? I’m trying to demonstrate how the world will look when we apply this principle. Why are you being so premature in your judgment, the very thing this author urged people not to do?

there is no ‘yourself’ here that is free from causality, therefore to introduce the intermediate position ‘self’ into a series of causal events is nonsense. think about this really hard; you’re telling me that everything that’s happening around me in the world is compelled by natural forces to be what it is, when it is, as it is, except this thing called ‘choosing’, which is a special kind of event unlike all the other events in the world, that is not subject to the same natural forces. this is the agency you’re introducing here, the ‘self’, which you’re saying is what is responsible for the physical actions of your body following the event of ‘choosing’. you’re saying that this ‘choosing’ somehow magically escapes and transcends the causality that affects everything else in the world.

you know who else did this? descartes. we call it substance dualism, and by that we mean that ‘consciousness’, or the ‘soul’, or the ‘mind’… three words that are notoriously turned into metaphysical concepts by philosophers… and we say that this second substance is ontologically different from the other substance, physical stuff, and therefore exempt from the causality that the physical stuff is under the jurisdiction of. descartes had a helluva time explaining how these two things - the self and the world - can interact causally if they’re two distinct substances… an impasse that spinoza later pointed out.

how does a ‘choice’ cause an ionized particle to cross a membrane? is this some harry potter shit because i didn’t read the books or watch the movies.

so you’re a closet cartesian (or ‘clotesian’) if you believe that ‘choices’ aren’t also the effect of some prior state of affairs and/or events in the world, but instead a different kind of event that is caused by something other than natural forces.

the ‘self’ is nothing more than a kind of temporarily sustained bundle of sensations, perceptions and impressions. it’s not some concrete thing that exists unaffected by the changing, empirical world. and just like every other natural process or body, it too acts, changes and develops under the influence of natural forces.

you’re right… the premise ‘something other than yourself is forcing a choice upon you’ is not true, but not because it’s false. no seriously. there are some statements that can’t be true or false because they make no sense… and this is one of em. there is no ‘self’ in the philosophical sense that you’re meaning it, so that statement can’t be true… but it can’t be false either.

the fact is, i could not have chosen to put ketchup rather than arby’s special sauce on the curly fries i just ate, but this doesn’t mean i am passive… because there is no ‘I’ here to be passive. the saucing of the curly fries - natura naturata - followed from the necessity of nature naturing itself… of the fries saucing themselves. remember what nietzsche said; there is no subject ‘fries’ and predicate ‘sauced’. there is only the saucing. to separate the saucing from the saucer is only a convenience in language.

What the hell? There is no ghost in the machine that would allow for free will. Who is introducing an intermediate position of self that is not part of the deterministic process? I AM IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU. If there’s any problem with our communication, it needs to be improved upon because we’re basically on the same page.

I am having a hard time believing that this is what you’ve gotten out of my posts. The only thing I’m saying is that human beings are different than dominoes in that they have choices, dominoes don’t.

Of course we have agency. Who else is making choices but you? When you choose what to eat for breakfast is it something other than you making the choice?

That is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that we are compelled to choose one thing over another if there is a meaningful difference, but it is not forced upon us by by a past event. We live in the present therefore everything happens in the present using our memory of the past to influence our choices in the present. To say the past caused us to act in a certain way is misleading. Where am I magically escaping from causality? The problem with the word “cause” is significant though. Have you even tried to understand what is being said before disputing it?

The fact that will is not
free demonstrates that man, as part of nature or God, has been
unconsciously developing at a mathematical rate and during every
moment of his progress was doing what he had to do because he had
no free choice. But this does not mean that he was caused to do
anything against his will, for the word cause, like choice and past, is
very misleading as it implies that something other than man himself
is responsible for his actions. Four is not caused by two plus two, it
is that already.

I don’t know where you got the idea that this is dualism or two distinct substances. Everything we do comes from the brain but the mechanism that causes us to move in the direction of greater preference cannot be found through dissection. We cannot pinpoint greater satisfaction directly therefore it can only be observed indirectly through inference. There is nothing supernatural about this finding.

Why are you choosing to put “greater satisfaction” in the same category as a pool ball, or any situation that can be traced to a single cause? That’s not the way human agency works because there are many factors that lead to greater preference. This is not that difficult to understand unless you are bent on proving him wrong without actual proof. It’s sad that the people who have the greatest capacity to understand this simple equation make it more complicated than it is because they can’t believe it’s that easy.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. You are stuck in a certain way of thinking which makes it hard for you to grasp the simplest of explanations. Are you forgetting Occam’s razor?

Absolutely, but we are not caused to do anything without our permission. That’s all I’m saying but you’re making much to do about nothing because you can’t believe it’s that easy. If a well-known philospher came onto this site and said this author was correct, what would you have to say then? You would respond differently.

Huh? It is either true or false, because it definitely makes sense. Determinism, as it’s presently defined, implies that we have no choice due to the fact that the choice has already been made since the Big Bang rendering us impotent and making a mockery of contemplation.

There is definitely a self that we call “I”. We don’t have to say each time that our biology, our neurons, our brains did this. We can just say 'I", as we can call a table a table without having to go any deeper in the table’s make-up.

Just because this idea came from a respected philosopher such as Nietzsche does not make it right. I am different from you. Ketchup is different from arby’s special sauce, and you cannot use the excuse that you are the killer and the victim because there is no difference. Language plays an important part to distinguish real objects from another. There is a definite separation because these items are separate entities that language is identifying. Language doesn’t create an artificial division unless the word being used to describe an object has no real object to describe. This is like creating heaven using the word when no such corresponding accuracy can be detected in the real world.

i’m saying technically we don’t have a choice… at least not what you think is a choice and what choosing entails.

when we are faced with making a decision we imagine in our heads at least two possible future events; i’m sitting here and i’m thinking about standing up. i can picture in my head what it would be like for me to stand up because i’ve stood up many times before. i know that standing up is a logically possible future event, just like remaining seated. but to say it is actually possible is something i cannot know, so i cannot say the possibility of standing up presents itself as a choice. there can’t be both events in the future - i stand up and remain seated - and neither can i know that i can stand up until i do stand up. again, it’s logically possible that i can stand up, but it might not be actually possible, because for all i know, the arrow of time in this particular reality might lead to the event ‘remaining seated’ instead of standing up.

so having a ‘choice’ really means something like this; imagining in your head a past event one was involved in and recognizing that it is logically possible for a similar event to occur again in the future. when i’m getting ready to choose to stand up, i’m not suspending a causal chain of events so that it has to wait on my decision before it can continue in one of two or more directions. i don’t actually have a ‘choice’ in the sense of being able to make the chain proceed in one direction rather than another. it’s only because i’ve stood up before that i can imagine it happening again in a logically possible future reality.

this…

is talking in circles. specifically this phrase: ‘he is obviously lying to others and being dishonest with himself
because absolutely nothing is forcing him against his will to do what he doesn’t want to do’.

what he wants to do, he cannot choose to want… and since the same causality responsible for making him want something, compels him to act, it cannot be said to be ‘forcing him against his will’, because that would mean that causality were fighting against itself; that his will follows one kind of causality while his acts follow another. it divides causality into two types; one type governs the movement of physical bodies in space, and the other governs the ‘will’, which is not ‘forced’ by the former type of causality.

maybe now you’re starting to see the cartesianism i mentioned earlier emerging in this kind thinking. forget about the ‘will’. there is no entity ‘will’, no ‘self’ that stands above and beyond causality such that it can ‘decide’ to do what it wants.

there is no ‘for or against’ the will because there is no will in the way that vitalists use the term in philosophy. there is a single will pervading throughout the entire universe, and this will expresses itself in the various modes and modifications that substance takes the form of. therefore, because these modes and modifications all fall under the operandi of a single causality, they cannot be in conflict with one another. ergo; there is no ‘battle of individual wills’. ‘conflict’, the idea of it, is an example of inadequate knowledge of how things work… usually based on a standard of some form of pleasure/pain; we are on conflict when we experience pain, and not when we experience pleasure. but these ‘conflicts’ are not indicative of the actual order of things and do not express a breakdown in the harmony of order.

this might shock you… but nothing is evil, and everything is good. the more an acquisition of the power and capacity to act is granted, the greater a thing is. some modes are determined to acquire more power than others, and it is at the expense of these greater modes that morality was invented. morality is the objection to the pain experienced during a causal interaction with something more powerful… and it has hitherto depended on the notion that the cause of the pain is the force of the stronger. this is the origin of resentment. in reality, it is the privation of the power of the weaker that is the cause of the pain. not that the strong has more force, but that the weak doesn’t have enough. having less of a capacity to act is the origin of pain… not the capacity to act of the external body (one’s ‘offender’). morality springs from the offensive nature of what is external as the cause of the experience of emotion… rather than what is internal, a lack of constitution and capacity to act. every emotional state is a state of aggravation and confusion… of experiencing the body as either approaching or leaving a greater state of power and capacity to act. in this sense every ‘complaint’ is an expression of a misunderstanding of causality in addition to the experience of one’s own lesser degree of power and capacity.

you’re going to ask ‘what does this have to do with anything’, and i’ll respond ‘everything… but it would take more effort than i’m willing to give at the moment to explain.’

Unless you are lame in some way, or something gets in the way of your standing up, you do have a choice. IOW, the choice to stand up is something that is feasible because people, of sound body, can stand up. This is different than thinking you can fly and choosing to jump off a building. Of course, there is always the possibility that your choice can be blunted by something unforeseen. In that case you would have to drop that as an option and make a different choice based on a new set of alternatives.

That is true. You are not suspending a causal chain of events from occurring because you don’t actually have a choice in the sense of being able to make the chain proceed in a way that is counter to the choice made. That is why the word choice is misleading since you have no control over the direction your desire will take you. Knowing in advance that gravity will allow you to stand up gives you confidence that this choice is possible, so you move in the direction of pushing yourself to a standing position.

You are correct that it’s the same causality. There is no causality that fights against itself. There is no contradiction between these two principles because they are both under the compulsion of greater satisfaction, over which we have no control.

Just because I cannot be made to do
something against my will does not mean my will is free because my
desire not to do it appeared the better reason, which gave me no free
choice since I got greater satisfaction. Nor does the expression, ‘I did
it of my own free will, nobody made me do it,’ mean that I actually
did it of my own free will — although I did it because I wanted to —
because my desire to do it appeared the better reason which gave me
no free choice since I got greater satisfaction.”

No one is saying that there is a will or self that stands above and beyond causality. But the word causality must be qualified, as many consider “to be caused” to mean “to be forced” against one’s will.

I agree to a point. We are all part of an original source but we are separate beings. As such, we have different genes and different environments. Even identical twins have different predispositions which lead to different behaviors under the same roof. To say that there is no ‘battle of individual wills’, ‘conflict’, is definitely an example of inadequate knowledge of how things work. Once we are able to use the knowledge that lies behind the door of determinism, conflict and battles of individual wills will no longer take place because we will have found a way to prevent the conflict and battles. Having pain does not express a breakdown in the harmony of order, because everything had to be. But that does not mean that we can’t work toward eliminating emotional and physical pain and in so doing promote more pleasure.

To show you how confused is the understanding of someone who
doesn’t grasp these principles, a local columnist interested in my
ideas, so he called them, made the statement that I believe that man
should not be blamed for anything he does which is true only when
man knows what it means that his will is not free. If he doesn’t know,
he is compelled to blame by his very nature. Christ also received
incursions of thought from this same principle which compelled him
to turn the other cheek and remark as he was being nailed to the
cross, “They know not what they do,” forgiving his enemies even in
the moment of death. How was it possible for him to blame them
when he knew that they were not responsible? But they knew what
they were doing and he could not stop them even by turning the other
cheek. Religion was compelled to believe that God was not responsible
for the evil in the world, whereas Spinoza and Christ believed correctly
that there was no such thing as evil when seen in total perspective.

But how was it possible, except for people like Christ and Spinoza, to
forgive those who trespassed against them? And how was it possible
for those who became victims of this necessary evil to look at it in
total perspective? Is it any wonder man cried out to God for
understanding? The time has arrived to clear up all the confusion and
reconcile these two opposite principles, which requires that you keep
an open mind and proceed with the investigation. Let me show you
how this apparent impasse can be rephrased in terms of possibility.

People are born with greater or lesser capacities. What causes pain is not having the basic necessities of life, as well as the lack of opportunity to advance.

I’m not sure why you posted this excerpt by Spinoza. I don’t see anything in his writing that negates these two principles?

[i]This knowledge was not available before now and what is revealed
as each individual becomes conscious of his true nature is something
fantastic to behold, for it not only gives ample proof that evil is no
accident but it will also put an end to every conceivable kind of hurt
that exists in human relations. There will take place a virtual miracle
of transformation as each person consciously realizes WHAT IT
MEANS that his will is not free, which has not yet been revealed.
And now I shall demonstrate how these two undeniable laws or
principles — that nothing can compel man to do anything against his
will because over this his nature allows absolute control, and that his
will is not free because his nature also compels him to prefer of
available alternatives the one that offers greater satisfaction — will
reveal a third invariable law — the discovery to which reference has
been made.

[/i]

This then cues my point about how human wants and human satisfactions are in turn necessarily rooted in the human brain necessarily rooted in nature necessarily rooted in its laws of matter.

Then around and around and around and around and around we go. Necessarily in other words.

Until nature compels you to reconfigure your argument into something that makes this part go away nature will continue to compel me to react as I do now.

Ironically, our only hope then is that we actually are autonomous beings able of our own volition to rethink each other’s points.

Thus:

I’m not arguing that. Again, what is considerably more obvious to me than to you is that an understanding of determinism is inherently embedded in an understanding of existence itself. And no one seems able to explain existence here and now. And you and I will be long, long, long dead and gone if and when it ever is.

Unless your “progressive future” includes a life for “I” after death. Does it?

From my frame of mind [and “for all practical purposes”] this is still a difference without a substantial distinction. Either way you are only able to say that I am only able to say that these things “caused” me to make a choice. Instead, from my frame of mind, given a determined universe, nature caused me to make a “choice”.

And then I still have no way in which to determine definitively if I either do or do not have any measure of autonomy in noting this.

Let’s just say that we are talking past each other here. You make these claims regarding what is true about the universe when science points out that only 5% of universe as we know it today contains the kind of matter that might be subject to immutable laws. Including our brains.

You insist you don’t shrug this part off but then you go on to make your claims anyway. Like the only thing in the universe that really matters here is the stuff that we make claims about on earth. Then you ask me to please stop making my own claims as though this is something that I am actually able to accomplish of my own volition.

And yet given my very point here I was never able not to keep repeating it.

From my frame of mind, you are speaking of historical events here as though the participants were able to choose a “true peace”, but, instead, like Hitler, “chose” a false peace. As though had the author of the book written it decades before the Nazis, the Holocaust might not have unfolded at all. Why? Because the right people might have “chosen” to read it and stopped the fascists in their historical tracks.

Or, sure, I am still just utterly confused about it all.

If the truth is “he could not have chosen any differently than what he did” how then were the Jews not fated by nature to be sent to the death camps? Surely, what would be construed by many of us as more horrible than the Holocaust itself, is the possibility that it is but one teeny, tiny manifestation of nature unfolding only as it ever could going all the way back to the Big Bang. Utterly “beyond our control” as wholly determined men and women.

This is simply unbelievable to me. He is telling us that in the future nature will shift gears and be entirely in sync with his own “progessive” assumptions about human interactions — as though nature itself would have no choice in the matter.

How are his perceptions of evil not entirely in sync with his brain being entirely in sync with the laws of matter being entirely in sync with human interactions [past, present, future] being entirely in sync with nature unfolding only as it must like clockwork.

Again, with or without the clockmaker.

You are the one choosing to go round and round, in the direction of greater satisfaction. And yes your choice to repeat over and over could not have been otherwise, but that does not mean you cannot change your response since there is no natural law prescribing in advance that this is what you must choose.

There most likely will be no connecting the dots and that’s okay. You will never agree that I can do something of my own volition without having free will. And I can have autonomy without having free will which only means I can be independent without the help of others.

Again, I reiterate that for the purposes of this discovery and its significance for the betterment of humanity, we do not have to understand all of existence here and now. Understanding the why of existence may never be fully understood by man.

The “I” we are now won’t be here, but he made an interesting observation regarding death. Interesting you brought that up.

[i]CHAPTER TEN
OUR POSTERITY

There is an aspect of life that doesn’t seem fair. There are
people who have suffered and died to develop this world
who will not be around when the fruits of their labor have
ripened to maturity.

“No matter how wonderful this Golden Age will be, how can God
be a reality when there is no way perfect justice can prevail? Doesn’t
the thought occur to you that it is awfully cruel of God to make the
man of the past pay a penalty and be made to suffer in order for the
man of the future to reap the harvest of the Golden Age?”

“You will see shortly why perfect justice does prevail. But I don’t
want to get ahead of myself.”

Even though the other two discoveries will bring about an entirely
new world for the benefit of all mankind, the blueprint of which is
demonstrated as I extend the principles into every area of human
relation; the discovery which I am about to reveal in this chapter is my
favorite. When thoroughly understood it might be yours too. Well,
my friends, I have great news! Wouldn’t it make you feel wonderful
to know as a matter of undeniable knowledge, equivalent to two plus
two equals four, that there is nothing to fear in death not only because
it is impossible to regret it, but primarily because (don’t jump to any
hasty conclusion) you will always be here. Although the basic
principle has been an infallible guide and miraculous catalyst through
the labyrinths of human relations, it cannot assist me here; but it did
not help other scientists discover atomic energy, nor was it used to
reveal itself. However, that of which it is composed, this perception
of undeniable relations that escapes the average eye will take us by the
hand and demonstrate, in a manner no one will be able to deny, that
there is absolutely nothing to fear in death because we will be born
again and again and again. This does not mean what you might think
it means because the life you live and are conscious of right now has
no relation whatsoever to you and your consciousness in another life.
Therefore, I am not speaking of reincarnation or a spiritual world of
souls or any other theory, but of the flesh, of a mind and body alive
and conscious of existence as you are this moment.[/i]

The only thing the principle that “nothing can make a person do anything against his will” does is it places the responsibility for a choice where it belongs (i.e., on the person who made the choice). If I push the accelerator and run a red light, I made the choice to push the accelerator. I wasn’t forced against my will to push the accelerator. You keep saying nature made you make the choice, as if you and nature aren’t one and the same. :confused:

As I stated above, we really don’t need to have a complete understanding of all of nature’s immutable laws that are based on determinism to have a powerful enough understanding of determinism to make great strikes here on earth.

I made no claims regarding what is true about the entire universe. The claim regarding man’s will and how this truth can change our world for the better has no bearing on the 95% of the universe we know very little about.

.

I don’t shrug off any part that matters here on Earth. What matters here IS that stuff that can help our world by claims that are true. I am asking nothing of you iambiguous. If you make claims that are in opposition to the claims presented here, I am not telling you to disregard yours. But if you do disregard your claims because you find my presentation more valid, this change of heart will be of your own volition (or desire) which does not in any way, shape, or form, take away from the fact that you made this choice not of your own free will.

Once made, you were never able not to keep repeating it. I’ve said this many times.

Never did I suggest that the participants were able to choose a “true peace.” Where are you coming from?

No one is saying this. Nothing could have been any different than how it unfolded, so what is it that is causing you to come to these false conclusions? Of course, if the events were different the historical reality may have been different, but they weren’t different so the Nazis era could not have been different.

Not that confused. Just a little. :wink:

They were fated to go to the death camps looking back in hindsight. But that does not mean that nature as something apart from us, prescribed this to happen. It happened because the people involved got greater satisfaction out of using the Jews as a scapegoat, because they were an easy target.

Nature meaning the individual. No one has ever had a choice since the beginning of time. The only difference is that what gave greater satisfaction to hurt others in the past will be replaced by the desire not to hurt others as the preferable alternative. How this is accomplished is amazing, but you don’t seem interested at all in understanding how this can actually become a reality. :frowning:

Everything is in sync with nature unfolding only as it must like clockwork, but that does not mean we are not co-creaters in what unfolds, as our choices, although unfree, play an important part in this inevitable unfolding.

right, because we’re anthropomorphizing nature when we say it can ‘prescribe’, just like we are when we use the word ‘determine’. it’s the ordinary uses of these words and their connotations that confuse the frick out of these arguments when they’re used in a philosophical environment.

in every way that we use the word ‘determine’, there are grammatical elements involved that make no sense when we use the word to describe some aspect of nature. it’s because of the family resemblance of the words ‘cause’ and ‘determine’ that leads to this overlooked misuse. subtle little intersections of meaning that evade us. like i might say ‘joe is determined to go to the store’ and mean ‘joe has in mind going to the store’. but if i said ‘the storm has determined the floods to happen’, i couldn’t mean ‘the storm had in mind causing the floods.’

better to stick with ‘cause’. so look… we can’t say that nature prescribes ‘in advance’ what biggy will choose… but we can say nature is in way x such that in the next thirty seconds, the result will be biggy’s choice y. we’d not say anything about being ‘in advance’ because nature does no ‘determining’ (does not deliberate), but we must say that given state of nature at time x, state of nature y was going to follow necessarily. which means, there is no ‘choice’ here, because biggy cannot prevent state of nature y.

So does the word “free”. The only “free” we are interested in regarding this argument is whether we are free to choose otherwise. If we could have chosen otherwise, we could then accept freedom of the will, but we don’t have free will because we are constrained by our very nature (which we cannot escape from) to choose ONLY the alternative which we believe offers us the greater satisfaction of the options available, and there is only one choice that can be made each and every moment of time. Compatibilists try make a case that some choices are not free (if they meet the compatibilist qualification of no physical or emotional constraint) and some are. In their way of thinking people who make the wrong choice (according to the law) deserve retributive justice because, according to their way of thinking, they could have chosen better. This division between free and not free is a false distinction (because no one is free in a free will sense) which confuses the truth and allows for the the status quo of blame, punishment, retaliation, and just desert to continue without looking deeper for a better solution.

The state of nature x can only predict state of nature y to follow necessarily if there is a direct cause and effect relationship like the storm causing floods. There is no choice. If I misstep and fall due to a tree branch I didn’t see, cause and effect will force me to go down. But it’s not the same with biggy. It cannot be predicted that biggy will necessarily choose y from state of x because there is no way such an accurate prediction can be made until biggy in fact, chooses y. There is no causal chain coming from nature forcing biggy to choose y, which the conventional definition of determinism implies and many philosophers object to. This goes back to the confusion with the word “cause”, which is a misnomer since it implies that necessarily biggy must choose y even if y is not his preference. There is a subtle difference between saying “he was compelled, of his own free will (which only means of his own desire), to choose y because under the circumstances it gave him greater satisfaction (which is the only choice he could have made since he can’t move in the direction of dissatisfaction)” in contrast to "necessarily he was forced to choose y because that is how it was programmed all the way back to the Big Bang even if the choice was against his will. No past event (even if it was a minute ago) can force us to choose a particular option. We make choices in the present based on the factors that are being considered. All this means is that there is nothing that says a person cannot alter his choice up to the instant a choice is made. Making choices based on contingency does not mean we have the kind of autonomy that frees us from the law of determinism or greater satisfaction. Due to the fact that man’s will is not free, everything that has ever happened up until the present time was predestined to happen because we were never given a free choice.

Again, I can only imagine those truly autonomus aliens following this exchange. Here you are once again agreeing that I have no “choice” but to go around and around in sync with how nature has compelled me to embody a particular sense of greater satisfaction, and me necessarily insisting that this is only a nominal “choice” and not an actual autonomous choice like the aliens made to follow this exchange.

But that somehow I might “choose” to change my response as though that too is not just the embodiment of the laws of matter manifested in brain matter that has emerged necessarily from the evolution of life on earth.

In a wholly determined universe there either are or are not connecting dots. The fact that you don’t know for sure yourself merely reinforces my point about the gap between what you think you know about these relationships here and now and all that would need to be known. All that can be known. And this is now deemed to be okay by you because nature compels you to see/feel/experience this frame of mind as reflecting a necessary sense of greater satisfaction.

If and when you are ever able to actually demonstrate this beyond merely asserting that it is true in a “world of words” I will be most interested in witnessing it.

You will either be compelled someday by nature to grasp how ridiculous nature has compelled me to view this or you won’t. How can the past, present or future not be profoundly intertwined in whatever is “behind” the existence of existence itself?

It would be like someone who has absolutely no understaning of an automobile as an actual entity being given a sparkplug and then asked to encompass what a car is. In other words, given all of the “unknown unknowns” that must stand between what we think reality is now and all that is yet to be grasped about it down the road.

But to think like that widens the gap considerably between the human condition as it is now and this fabled “progressive” future that you have thought up in your head. So, of course you going to shrug off those “unknown unknowns”.

As for this…

…how is it not just one more gigantic “intellectual contraption” bursting at the seams with assumptions that in no way shape or form are actually demonstrated to be true? Again, from my frame of mind, the whole point of “thinking up” an alternative reality to “brute facticity” embedded in a human existence that has no meaning or purpose behind it – and that ends in the obliteration of “I” forever and ever – is to create a psychological defense mechanism that allows for some measure of comfort and consolation in what can be a truly grim and gruesome “human reality” from day to day.

And, sure, to the extent that the author and you are able to actually believe it, more power to you.

And around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around we go. Then I’m back to this:

Until nature compels you to reconfigure your argument into something that makes this part go away nature will continue to compel me to react as I do now.

If nature and “I” are one and the same then the accelerator must be pushed and the red light must be run. And if there are terrible consequences as a result of that, well, que sera sera…right?

How on earth can you possibly know this?! You can’t even admit to yourself how crucial that relationship must be for grappling with determinism in that context which encompasses all of existence itself.

Instead, you wrap everything around that puny 5% that we still are a long, long way from fully grasping because that which you claim to grasp now is the part that comforts and consoles you.

Looking back in hindsight? How are we not in turn fated to look back at the Holocuast in hindsight only as nature compells us to? How is the greater satisfaction that we get in doing this really any different from the greater satisfaction that folks back then got in using the Jews as a scapegoat? Nothing is not compelled in a wholly determined universe as I am either compelled or not compelled to understand it.

I’ll tell you how I think the author accomplish it: in his head. Then it’s only a matter of whether he could have chosen autonomousy to perhaps have accomplish something else instead.

Let’s just say that we are far, far removed regarding what “for all practical purposes” this tells us about human interactions out in a wholly determined world.

Connecting the dots in a way you believe is necessary not what is actually necessary. A discovery has been made and you refuse to want to know more about it. I agree, you cannot help yourself because your responses are part of your background and heredity that make you say what you say and believe what you believe, true or not.

He has without a doubt shown that we move in the direction of greater satisfaction, rendering only one choice possible each moment in time. Will is not free, and you cannot escape this fact no matter how you try to make the case that autonomy or free will, or the ability to act or behave outside of natural law is a real possibility because you continue to define determinism as being nothing more than a domino without a will to resist being forced to do what you really wish you didn’t have to do. I have no desire to prove anything iambiguous. You have a one track mind, and you are committed to creating a false narrative.

You’re right, this isn’t going to work. You are bringing into the equation something that is totally unnecessary. You are creating a prerequisite that is ridiculous because it’s like saying I would have to know all the causes in a deterministic world to learn anything new, create anything new, or advance in anything new.

No one has to understand anything other than how to use a sparkplug in a moving vehicle, which is what a car is. Of course he would have to know what a car does to work on how a car can be better designed. He needs not know anything more about the existential reasons for why cars were created to make a better designed car. You’re off base.

Um, I think our progressive future has come to fruition in many ways through all kinds of discoveries. How you call this fabled, I have no idea. I’m very well aware that there are unknowns. But the FACT that will is not free IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

In your desire to be open-minded you are extremely closed minded and the antithesis of a true investigator. We all know you’re not to blame so don’t repeat yourself. You read one paragraph and you already have come to a conclusion that this is an intellectual contraption. You are lost in your own confused thinking which is the intellectual contraption you don’t realize you are caught up in.

You should not be reading this book. Please stay in your gruesome “human reality” if you feel this knowledge is just a psychological defense mechanism. It’s anything but. I don’t think there is any purpose to our continuing the conversation because you will only fight me without really taking the time to understand the principles.

YOU STILL DON’T GET IT. Nature is YOU and therefore being you, you cannot be forced to push on the accelerator and take the risk of killing someone, UNLESS YOU WANT TO. In a court of law they would not accept the excuse that nature made you hit a person because of running the red light. You hit the person because you desired to speed up, and the person became the collateral damage. Now you would be forced to pay for what you did. But before you push on the accelerator, you have a choice. Once you make the choice, it could not have been otherwise. But now there is a way to increase responsibility to such a high degree that under the same conditions you would never desire to take a chance speeding up, and the accident would be avoided as a consequence. But you’re not interested in knowing how this is possible since you have already made up your mind that “for all practical purposes” there is nothing here that can change human conduct. Your mindset is in stone.

No iambiguous. You are using the fact that if we cannot understand the entire universe we can’t begin to understand anything. The 5% that we can know here and now is more important in the scheme of things than the 95% that we may never come to understand. We are a small planet but it’s our home. Discoveries have been made that have improved our world and the human beings that live here. This discovery is one of them, and a very significant one.

The fact that you keep repeating what you know I already know is true and have agreed with umpteen times, is just delaying any productive conversation.

Tell me, how else could a discovery be made if not through someone’s intellect (which is in his head) using astute observation and careful analysis as tools to create something new from things old? To say “in his head” the way you’re using it is to be derogating due to your lack of understanding and misplaced skepticism.

This knowledge “for all practical purposes” is able to show the way out of misery, hatred, greed, poverty, murder, jealousy, and war (because of its ability to change every aspect of human relation from economics to child rearing, to the medical field) and you tell me without any understanding of this law and how its applied that you know more than the author did after 30 years of observation and careful analysis of what you think this discovery can do or not do. How absurd!