New Discovery

You’re so off-base it’s ridiculous. This is NOT a version of compatibilism

It’s not me that’s not getting it, it’s you! I have always agreed that nothing is free from causality, but the word cause is misleading for it implies that something other than you yourself is forcing a choice upon you in advance. That is called a modal fallacy. This may help a little even though this professor believes that because we’re not forced, we have free will. Lots of people are confused on this issue.

[i]Proposal Three: The truth of propositions does not ‘make’ events happen (occur).

Consider: My wearing a short-sleeved shirt today [Oct. 28] is what makes (the proposition expressed by) “Swartz is wearing a short-sleeved shirt on Oct. 28, 1997” true. It is not the other way round. Logical fatalism confuses the semantic (truth-making) order. It makes it appear that the truth of a proposition ‘causes’ an event to occur. It is, rather, that the event’s occurring tomorrow ‘makes’ (but does not cause) the proposition to be true today. This is not ‘backwards causation’: the relation between an event and the truth of the proposition describing that event is not a causal relation whatever. It is a semantic relation.

The logic of the preceding paragraph can perhaps be made apparent by switching the example to one of speaking about the past rather than the future.

John Lennon was shot and killed in 1980. Let’s suppose a group of ten persons is arguing about the year of his death. Alice says that it was 1976; Betty, that it was 1977; Cathy, that it was 1978; Denise, that it was 1979; Edith, that it was 1980; Freda, that it was 1981; etc.

Of the ten claims made, only Edith’s is true. The other nine are false. Now ask yourself: Does Edith’s making a true claim today (about the year of Lennon’s death) account for Lennon’s killing? Did Edith’s asserting a truth today about Lennon’s killing somehow or other ‘force’ Mark David Chapman to fire five bullets into Lennon’s chest? Of course not. Now what if the year of the discussion were 1975? Alex says, “Lennon will be killed in 1976.” Bellamy says that it will happen in 1977. Charles, that it will happen in 1978. Damien, that it will happen in 1979. Eduardo, that it will happen in 1980. Frank, that it will happen in 1981. Graham, that it will happen in 1982. Etc. Of the ten discussants, one, namely Eduardo, gets it ‘right’; the other nine make false predictions. Does Eduardo’s true prediction (in 1975) somehow or other ‘force’ Mark David Chapman to fire five bullets into Lennon’s chest five years later, in 1980? Of course not.

Similarly you and I can make all sorts of predictions – some true, some false, some on the basis of excellent evidence (“There will be a lunar eclipse on Sept. 19, 2499”), some on the basis of no evidence whatever (“Simon Fraser University will remove all tuition fees in 1999”) – but those that are true do not ‘force’ the predicted events to occur.

sfu.ca/~swartz/freewill1.htm#part2[/i]

Ambiguous keeps saying the laws of matter made him repeat his comments. These laws don’t have the power to do that unless he desires to repeat his comments in the direction of greater satisfaction, which is also beyond his control. His idea of autonomy takes him out of necessity, into contingency. But the interesting point here is that “greater satisfaction” is not based on a modal fallacy, therefore the distinction he is making between autonomy and the laws of matter are contrived based on an inaccurate definition. Our movement in the direction of satisfaction is part of our brain state, true, but the distinction I’m trying to make is that nothing other than OURSELVES (the “I” that distinguish us from others) can force us to make a particular choice…where the agent or self has no say. That is what the present definition of determinism implies. Once again, you can’t say nature forced me to make the choice therefore I’m not responsible. You are not responsible because you could not have chosen otherwise based on your heredity and environment. This is important because it has to do with who was responsible for making said choice, not morally responsible which goes back to the free will (or the “could have done otherwise”) that compatibilists use to justify blame and punishment.

That’s exactly right. Think about it this way: If you are not free to choose “y” because it gives you less satisfaction under the circumstances, you are not free to choose “x”. You 're correct that the word choice is misleading because it implies we can choose x or y equally, which cannot be done when we are comparing meaningful differences. This IS an invariable law.

I know you haven’t read it by what you’re saying, so how can you be so sure that there is nothing new here? I can promise you this is groundbreaking and it has nothing to do with compatibilism. Compatibilism tries to have its cake and eat it too by defining the word “free” in a way that does not grant us free will at all. It’s just their way of defining a word to make it seem compatible, but it is anything but. It states that the person who was not under duress was free not to do what he did, which is absolutely false. This is the antithesis of everything the book is demonstrating to be true . To repeat: Just because we do not have anything constraining our choice externally (like a gun to our head) or internally (like having OCD), does not in any way give us the freedom of choice that would justify blame and just desert. It is true that when we have a gun to our head, it appears that we don’t have a choice because one choice (to do what the person wants and not get shot) is so superior than the alternative (getting shot) that no hesitation is required to decide which choice is preferable, whereas other choices need a more careful consideration. But this does not take away from the fact that in both cases we have a choice, although never a free one.

[i]The government holds each person responsible to obey the laws
and then punishes those who do not while absolving itself of all
responsibility; but how is it possible for someone to obey that which
under certain conditions appears to him worse? It is quite obvious
that a person does not have to steal if he doesn’t want to, but under
certain conditions he wants to, and it is also obvious that those who
enforce the laws do not have to punish if they don’t want to, but both
sides want to do what they consider better for themselves under the
circumstances.

The Russians didn’t have to start a communistic
revolution against the tyranny that prevailed; they were not compelled
to do this; they wanted to. The Japanese didn’t have to attack us at
Pearl Harbor; they wanted to. We didn’t have to drop an atomic
bomb among their people, we wanted to. It is an undeniable
observation that man does not have to commit a crime or hurt
another in any way, if he doesn’t want to. The most severe tortures,
even the threat of death, cannot compel or cause him to do what he
makes up his mind not to do. Since this observation is
mathematically undeniable, the expression ‘free will,’ which has come
to signify this aspect, is absolutely true in this context because it
symbolizes what the perception of this relation cannot deny, and here
lies in part the unconscious source of all the dogmatism and
confusion since MAN IS NOT CAUSED OR COMPELLED TO
DO TO ANOTHER WHAT HE MAKES UP HIS MIND NOT
TO DO — but that does not make his will free.
In other words, if someone were to say — “I didn’t really want to
hurt that person but couldn’t help myself under the circumstances,”
which demonstrates that though he believes in freedom of the will he
admits he was not free to act otherwise; that he was forced by his
environment to do what he really didn’t want to do, or should he make
any effort to shift his responsibility for this hurt to heredity, God, his
parents, the fact that his will is not free, or something else as the
cause, he is obviously lying to others and being dishonest with himself
because absolutely nothing is forcing him against his will to do what
he doesn’t want to do, for over this, as was just shown, he has
mathematical control.

“It’s amazing, all my life I have believed man’s will is free but for
the first time I can actually see that his will is not free.”
Another friend commented: “You may be satisfied but I’m not.
The definition of determinism is the philosophical and ethical
doctrine that man’s choices, decisions and actions are decided by
antecedent causes, inherited or environmental, acting upon his
character. According to this definition we are not given a choice
because we are being caused to do what we do by a previous event or
circumstance. But I know for a fact that nothing can make me do
what I make up my mind not to do — as you just mentioned a
moment ago. If I don’t want to do something, nothing, not
environment, heredity, or anything else you care to throw in can make
me do it because over this I have absolute control. Since I can’t be
made to do anything against my will, doesn’t this make my will free?
And isn’t it a contradiction to say that man’s will is not free yet
nothing can make him do what he doesn’t want to do?”

“How about that, he brought out something I never would have
thought of.”

All he said was that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t
make him drink, which is undeniable, however, though it is a
mathematical law that nothing can compel man to do to another what
he makes up his mind not to do — this is an extremely crucial point
— he is nevertheless under a compulsion during every moment of his
existence to do everything he does. This reveals, as your friend just
pointed out, that man has absolute control over the former but
absolutely none over the latter because he must constantly move in
the direction of greater satisfaction.

It is true that nothing in the past
can cause what occurs in the present, for all we ever have is the
present; the past and future are only words that describe a deceptive
relation.
Consequently, determinism was faced with an almost
impossible task because it assumed that heredity and environment
caused man to choose evil, and the proponents of free will believed the
opposite, that man was not caused or compelled, ‘he did it of his own
accord; he wanted to do it, he didn’t have to.’ The term ‘free will’
contains an assumption or fallacy for it implies that if man is not
caused or compelled to do anything against his will, it must be
preferred of his own free will. This is one of those logical, not
mathematical conclusions. The expression, ‘I did it of my own free
will’ is perfectly correct when it is understood to mean ‘I did it because
I wanted to; nothing compelled or caused me to do it since I could
have acted otherwise had I desired.’ This expression was necessarily
misinterpreted because of the general ignorance that prevailed for
although it is correct in the sense that a person did something because
he wanted to, this in no way indicates that his will is free. In fact I
shall use the expression ‘of my own free will’ frequently myself which
only means ‘of my own desire.’ Are you beginning to see how words
have deceived everyone?[/i]

What do you think I’m trying to do promethean? I’m trying to demonstrate how the world will look when we apply this principle. Why are you being so premature in your judgment, the very thing this author urged people not to do?

there is no ‘yourself’ here that is free from causality, therefore to introduce the intermediate position ‘self’ into a series of causal events is nonsense. think about this really hard; you’re telling me that everything that’s happening around me in the world is compelled by natural forces to be what it is, when it is, as it is, except this thing called ‘choosing’, which is a special kind of event unlike all the other events in the world, that is not subject to the same natural forces. this is the agency you’re introducing here, the ‘self’, which you’re saying is what is responsible for the physical actions of your body following the event of ‘choosing’. you’re saying that this ‘choosing’ somehow magically escapes and transcends the causality that affects everything else in the world.

you know who else did this? descartes. we call it substance dualism, and by that we mean that ‘consciousness’, or the ‘soul’, or the ‘mind’… three words that are notoriously turned into metaphysical concepts by philosophers… and we say that this second substance is ontologically different from the other substance, physical stuff, and therefore exempt from the causality that the physical stuff is under the jurisdiction of. descartes had a helluva time explaining how these two things - the self and the world - can interact causally if they’re two distinct substances… an impasse that spinoza later pointed out.

how does a ‘choice’ cause an ionized particle to cross a membrane? is this some harry potter shit because i didn’t read the books or watch the movies.

so you’re a closet cartesian (or ‘clotesian’) if you believe that ‘choices’ aren’t also the effect of some prior state of affairs and/or events in the world, but instead a different kind of event that is caused by something other than natural forces.

the ‘self’ is nothing more than a kind of temporarily sustained bundle of sensations, perceptions and impressions. it’s not some concrete thing that exists unaffected by the changing, empirical world. and just like every other natural process or body, it too acts, changes and develops under the influence of natural forces.

you’re right… the premise ‘something other than yourself is forcing a choice upon you’ is not true, but not because it’s false. no seriously. there are some statements that can’t be true or false because they make no sense… and this is one of em. there is no ‘self’ in the philosophical sense that you’re meaning it, so that statement can’t be true… but it can’t be false either.

the fact is, i could not have chosen to put ketchup rather than arby’s special sauce on the curly fries i just ate, but this doesn’t mean i am passive… because there is no ‘I’ here to be passive. the saucing of the curly fries - natura naturata - followed from the necessity of nature naturing itself… of the fries saucing themselves. remember what nietzsche said; there is no subject ‘fries’ and predicate ‘sauced’. there is only the saucing. to separate the saucing from the saucer is only a convenience in language.

What the hell? There is no ghost in the machine that would allow for free will. Who is introducing an intermediate position of self that is not part of the deterministic process? I AM IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU. If there’s any problem with our communication, it needs to be improved upon because we’re basically on the same page.

I am having a hard time believing that this is what you’ve gotten out of my posts. The only thing I’m saying is that human beings are different than dominoes in that they have choices, dominoes don’t.

Of course we have agency. Who else is making choices but you? When you choose what to eat for breakfast is it something other than you making the choice?

That is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that we are compelled to choose one thing over another if there is a meaningful difference, but it is not forced upon us by by a past event. We live in the present therefore everything happens in the present using our memory of the past to influence our choices in the present. To say the past caused us to act in a certain way is misleading. Where am I magically escaping from causality? The problem with the word “cause” is significant though. Have you even tried to understand what is being said before disputing it?

The fact that will is not
free demonstrates that man, as part of nature or God, has been
unconsciously developing at a mathematical rate and during every
moment of his progress was doing what he had to do because he had
no free choice. But this does not mean that he was caused to do
anything against his will, for the word cause, like choice and past, is
very misleading as it implies that something other than man himself
is responsible for his actions. Four is not caused by two plus two, it
is that already.

I don’t know where you got the idea that this is dualism or two distinct substances. Everything we do comes from the brain but the mechanism that causes us to move in the direction of greater preference cannot be found through dissection. We cannot pinpoint greater satisfaction directly therefore it can only be observed indirectly through inference. There is nothing supernatural about this finding.

Why are you choosing to put “greater satisfaction” in the same category as a pool ball, or any situation that can be traced to a single cause? That’s not the way human agency works because there are many factors that lead to greater preference. This is not that difficult to understand unless you are bent on proving him wrong without actual proof. It’s sad that the people who have the greatest capacity to understand this simple equation make it more complicated than it is because they can’t believe it’s that easy.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. You are stuck in a certain way of thinking which makes it hard for you to grasp the simplest of explanations. Are you forgetting Occam’s razor?

Absolutely, but we are not caused to do anything without our permission. That’s all I’m saying but you’re making much to do about nothing because you can’t believe it’s that easy. If a well-known philospher came onto this site and said this author was correct, what would you have to say then? You would respond differently.

Huh? It is either true or false, because it definitely makes sense. Determinism, as it’s presently defined, implies that we have no choice due to the fact that the choice has already been made since the Big Bang rendering us impotent and making a mockery of contemplation.

There is definitely a self that we call “I”. We don’t have to say each time that our biology, our neurons, our brains did this. We can just say 'I", as we can call a table a table without having to go any deeper in the table’s make-up.

Just because this idea came from a respected philosopher such as Nietzsche does not make it right. I am different from you. Ketchup is different from arby’s special sauce, and you cannot use the excuse that you are the killer and the victim because there is no difference. Language plays an important part to distinguish real objects from another. There is a definite separation because these items are separate entities that language is identifying. Language doesn’t create an artificial division unless the word being used to describe an object has no real object to describe. This is like creating heaven using the word when no such corresponding accuracy can be detected in the real world.

i’m saying technically we don’t have a choice… at least not what you think is a choice and what choosing entails.

when we are faced with making a decision we imagine in our heads at least two possible future events; i’m sitting here and i’m thinking about standing up. i can picture in my head what it would be like for me to stand up because i’ve stood up many times before. i know that standing up is a logically possible future event, just like remaining seated. but to say it is actually possible is something i cannot know, so i cannot say the possibility of standing up presents itself as a choice. there can’t be both events in the future - i stand up and remain seated - and neither can i know that i can stand up until i do stand up. again, it’s logically possible that i can stand up, but it might not be actually possible, because for all i know, the arrow of time in this particular reality might lead to the event ‘remaining seated’ instead of standing up.

so having a ‘choice’ really means something like this; imagining in your head a past event one was involved in and recognizing that it is logically possible for a similar event to occur again in the future. when i’m getting ready to choose to stand up, i’m not suspending a causal chain of events so that it has to wait on my decision before it can continue in one of two or more directions. i don’t actually have a ‘choice’ in the sense of being able to make the chain proceed in one direction rather than another. it’s only because i’ve stood up before that i can imagine it happening again in a logically possible future reality.

this…

is talking in circles. specifically this phrase: ‘he is obviously lying to others and being dishonest with himself
because absolutely nothing is forcing him against his will to do what he doesn’t want to do’.

what he wants to do, he cannot choose to want… and since the same causality responsible for making him want something, compels him to act, it cannot be said to be ‘forcing him against his will’, because that would mean that causality were fighting against itself; that his will follows one kind of causality while his acts follow another. it divides causality into two types; one type governs the movement of physical bodies in space, and the other governs the ‘will’, which is not ‘forced’ by the former type of causality.

maybe now you’re starting to see the cartesianism i mentioned earlier emerging in this kind thinking. forget about the ‘will’. there is no entity ‘will’, no ‘self’ that stands above and beyond causality such that it can ‘decide’ to do what it wants.

there is no ‘for or against’ the will because there is no will in the way that vitalists use the term in philosophy. there is a single will pervading throughout the entire universe, and this will expresses itself in the various modes and modifications that substance takes the form of. therefore, because these modes and modifications all fall under the operandi of a single causality, they cannot be in conflict with one another. ergo; there is no ‘battle of individual wills’. ‘conflict’, the idea of it, is an example of inadequate knowledge of how things work… usually based on a standard of some form of pleasure/pain; we are on conflict when we experience pain, and not when we experience pleasure. but these ‘conflicts’ are not indicative of the actual order of things and do not express a breakdown in the harmony of order.

this might shock you… but nothing is evil, and everything is good. the more an acquisition of the power and capacity to act is granted, the greater a thing is. some modes are determined to acquire more power than others, and it is at the expense of these greater modes that morality was invented. morality is the objection to the pain experienced during a causal interaction with something more powerful… and it has hitherto depended on the notion that the cause of the pain is the force of the stronger. this is the origin of resentment. in reality, it is the privation of the power of the weaker that is the cause of the pain. not that the strong has more force, but that the weak doesn’t have enough. having less of a capacity to act is the origin of pain… not the capacity to act of the external body (one’s ‘offender’). morality springs from the offensive nature of what is external as the cause of the experience of emotion… rather than what is internal, a lack of constitution and capacity to act. every emotional state is a state of aggravation and confusion… of experiencing the body as either approaching or leaving a greater state of power and capacity to act. in this sense every ‘complaint’ is an expression of a misunderstanding of causality in addition to the experience of one’s own lesser degree of power and capacity.

you’re going to ask ‘what does this have to do with anything’, and i’ll respond ‘everything… but it would take more effort than i’m willing to give at the moment to explain.’

Unless you are lame in some way, or something gets in the way of your standing up, you do have a choice. IOW, the choice to stand up is something that is feasible because people, of sound body, can stand up. This is different than thinking you can fly and choosing to jump off a building. Of course, there is always the possibility that your choice can be blunted by something unforeseen. In that case you would have to drop that as an option and make a different choice based on a new set of alternatives.

That is true. You are not suspending a causal chain of events from occurring because you don’t actually have a choice in the sense of being able to make the chain proceed in a way that is counter to the choice made. That is why the word choice is misleading since you have no control over the direction your desire will take you. Knowing in advance that gravity will allow you to stand up gives you confidence that this choice is possible, so you move in the direction of pushing yourself to a standing position.

You are correct that it’s the same causality. There is no causality that fights against itself. There is no contradiction between these two principles because they are both under the compulsion of greater satisfaction, over which we have no control.

Just because I cannot be made to do
something against my will does not mean my will is free because my
desire not to do it appeared the better reason, which gave me no free
choice since I got greater satisfaction. Nor does the expression, ‘I did
it of my own free will, nobody made me do it,’ mean that I actually
did it of my own free will — although I did it because I wanted to —
because my desire to do it appeared the better reason which gave me
no free choice since I got greater satisfaction.”

No one is saying that there is a will or self that stands above and beyond causality. But the word causality must be qualified, as many consider “to be caused” to mean “to be forced” against one’s will.

I agree to a point. We are all part of an original source but we are separate beings. As such, we have different genes and different environments. Even identical twins have different predispositions which lead to different behaviors under the same roof. To say that there is no ‘battle of individual wills’, ‘conflict’, is definitely an example of inadequate knowledge of how things work. Once we are able to use the knowledge that lies behind the door of determinism, conflict and battles of individual wills will no longer take place because we will have found a way to prevent the conflict and battles. Having pain does not express a breakdown in the harmony of order, because everything had to be. But that does not mean that we can’t work toward eliminating emotional and physical pain and in so doing promote more pleasure.

To show you how confused is the understanding of someone who
doesn’t grasp these principles, a local columnist interested in my
ideas, so he called them, made the statement that I believe that man
should not be blamed for anything he does which is true only when
man knows what it means that his will is not free. If he doesn’t know,
he is compelled to blame by his very nature. Christ also received
incursions of thought from this same principle which compelled him
to turn the other cheek and remark as he was being nailed to the
cross, “They know not what they do,” forgiving his enemies even in
the moment of death. How was it possible for him to blame them
when he knew that they were not responsible? But they knew what
they were doing and he could not stop them even by turning the other
cheek. Religion was compelled to believe that God was not responsible
for the evil in the world, whereas Spinoza and Christ believed correctly
that there was no such thing as evil when seen in total perspective.

But how was it possible, except for people like Christ and Spinoza, to
forgive those who trespassed against them? And how was it possible
for those who became victims of this necessary evil to look at it in
total perspective? Is it any wonder man cried out to God for
understanding? The time has arrived to clear up all the confusion and
reconcile these two opposite principles, which requires that you keep
an open mind and proceed with the investigation. Let me show you
how this apparent impasse can be rephrased in terms of possibility.

People are born with greater or lesser capacities. What causes pain is not having the basic necessities of life, as well as the lack of opportunity to advance.

I’m not sure why you posted this excerpt by Spinoza. I don’t see anything in his writing that negates these two principles?

[i]This knowledge was not available before now and what is revealed
as each individual becomes conscious of his true nature is something
fantastic to behold, for it not only gives ample proof that evil is no
accident but it will also put an end to every conceivable kind of hurt
that exists in human relations. There will take place a virtual miracle
of transformation as each person consciously realizes WHAT IT
MEANS that his will is not free, which has not yet been revealed.
And now I shall demonstrate how these two undeniable laws or
principles — that nothing can compel man to do anything against his
will because over this his nature allows absolute control, and that his
will is not free because his nature also compels him to prefer of
available alternatives the one that offers greater satisfaction — will
reveal a third invariable law — the discovery to which reference has
been made.

[/i]

This then cues my point about how human wants and human satisfactions are in turn necessarily rooted in the human brain necessarily rooted in nature necessarily rooted in its laws of matter.

Then around and around and around and around and around we go. Necessarily in other words.

Until nature compels you to reconfigure your argument into something that makes this part go away nature will continue to compel me to react as I do now.

Ironically, our only hope then is that we actually are autonomous beings able of our own volition to rethink each other’s points.

Thus:

I’m not arguing that. Again, what is considerably more obvious to me than to you is that an understanding of determinism is inherently embedded in an understanding of existence itself. And no one seems able to explain existence here and now. And you and I will be long, long, long dead and gone if and when it ever is.

Unless your “progressive future” includes a life for “I” after death. Does it?

From my frame of mind [and “for all practical purposes”] this is still a difference without a substantial distinction. Either way you are only able to say that I am only able to say that these things “caused” me to make a choice. Instead, from my frame of mind, given a determined universe, nature caused me to make a “choice”.

And then I still have no way in which to determine definitively if I either do or do not have any measure of autonomy in noting this.

Let’s just say that we are talking past each other here. You make these claims regarding what is true about the universe when science points out that only 5% of universe as we know it today contains the kind of matter that might be subject to immutable laws. Including our brains.

You insist you don’t shrug this part off but then you go on to make your claims anyway. Like the only thing in the universe that really matters here is the stuff that we make claims about on earth. Then you ask me to please stop making my own claims as though this is something that I am actually able to accomplish of my own volition.

And yet given my very point here I was never able not to keep repeating it.

From my frame of mind, you are speaking of historical events here as though the participants were able to choose a “true peace”, but, instead, like Hitler, “chose” a false peace. As though had the author of the book written it decades before the Nazis, the Holocaust might not have unfolded at all. Why? Because the right people might have “chosen” to read it and stopped the fascists in their historical tracks.

Or, sure, I am still just utterly confused about it all.

If the truth is “he could not have chosen any differently than what he did” how then were the Jews not fated by nature to be sent to the death camps? Surely, what would be construed by many of us as more horrible than the Holocaust itself, is the possibility that it is but one teeny, tiny manifestation of nature unfolding only as it ever could going all the way back to the Big Bang. Utterly “beyond our control” as wholly determined men and women.

This is simply unbelievable to me. He is telling us that in the future nature will shift gears and be entirely in sync with his own “progessive” assumptions about human interactions — as though nature itself would have no choice in the matter.

How are his perceptions of evil not entirely in sync with his brain being entirely in sync with the laws of matter being entirely in sync with human interactions [past, present, future] being entirely in sync with nature unfolding only as it must like clockwork.

Again, with or without the clockmaker.

You are the one choosing to go round and round, in the direction of greater satisfaction. And yes your choice to repeat over and over could not have been otherwise, but that does not mean you cannot change your response since there is no natural law prescribing in advance that this is what you must choose.

There most likely will be no connecting the dots and that’s okay. You will never agree that I can do something of my own volition without having free will. And I can have autonomy without having free will which only means I can be independent without the help of others.

Again, I reiterate that for the purposes of this discovery and its significance for the betterment of humanity, we do not have to understand all of existence here and now. Understanding the why of existence may never be fully understood by man.

The “I” we are now won’t be here, but he made an interesting observation regarding death. Interesting you brought that up.

[i]CHAPTER TEN
OUR POSTERITY

There is an aspect of life that doesn’t seem fair. There are
people who have suffered and died to develop this world
who will not be around when the fruits of their labor have
ripened to maturity.

“No matter how wonderful this Golden Age will be, how can God
be a reality when there is no way perfect justice can prevail? Doesn’t
the thought occur to you that it is awfully cruel of God to make the
man of the past pay a penalty and be made to suffer in order for the
man of the future to reap the harvest of the Golden Age?”

“You will see shortly why perfect justice does prevail. But I don’t
want to get ahead of myself.”

Even though the other two discoveries will bring about an entirely
new world for the benefit of all mankind, the blueprint of which is
demonstrated as I extend the principles into every area of human
relation; the discovery which I am about to reveal in this chapter is my
favorite. When thoroughly understood it might be yours too. Well,
my friends, I have great news! Wouldn’t it make you feel wonderful
to know as a matter of undeniable knowledge, equivalent to two plus
two equals four, that there is nothing to fear in death not only because
it is impossible to regret it, but primarily because (don’t jump to any
hasty conclusion) you will always be here. Although the basic
principle has been an infallible guide and miraculous catalyst through
the labyrinths of human relations, it cannot assist me here; but it did
not help other scientists discover atomic energy, nor was it used to
reveal itself. However, that of which it is composed, this perception
of undeniable relations that escapes the average eye will take us by the
hand and demonstrate, in a manner no one will be able to deny, that
there is absolutely nothing to fear in death because we will be born
again and again and again. This does not mean what you might think
it means because the life you live and are conscious of right now has
no relation whatsoever to you and your consciousness in another life.
Therefore, I am not speaking of reincarnation or a spiritual world of
souls or any other theory, but of the flesh, of a mind and body alive
and conscious of existence as you are this moment.[/i]

The only thing the principle that “nothing can make a person do anything against his will” does is it places the responsibility for a choice where it belongs (i.e., on the person who made the choice). If I push the accelerator and run a red light, I made the choice to push the accelerator. I wasn’t forced against my will to push the accelerator. You keep saying nature made you make the choice, as if you and nature aren’t one and the same. :confused:

As I stated above, we really don’t need to have a complete understanding of all of nature’s immutable laws that are based on determinism to have a powerful enough understanding of determinism to make great strikes here on earth.

I made no claims regarding what is true about the entire universe. The claim regarding man’s will and how this truth can change our world for the better has no bearing on the 95% of the universe we know very little about.

.

I don’t shrug off any part that matters here on Earth. What matters here IS that stuff that can help our world by claims that are true. I am asking nothing of you iambiguous. If you make claims that are in opposition to the claims presented here, I am not telling you to disregard yours. But if you do disregard your claims because you find my presentation more valid, this change of heart will be of your own volition (or desire) which does not in any way, shape, or form, take away from the fact that you made this choice not of your own free will.

Once made, you were never able not to keep repeating it. I’ve said this many times.

Never did I suggest that the participants were able to choose a “true peace.” Where are you coming from?

No one is saying this. Nothing could have been any different than how it unfolded, so what is it that is causing you to come to these false conclusions? Of course, if the events were different the historical reality may have been different, but they weren’t different so the Nazis era could not have been different.

Not that confused. Just a little. :wink:

They were fated to go to the death camps looking back in hindsight. But that does not mean that nature as something apart from us, prescribed this to happen. It happened because the people involved got greater satisfaction out of using the Jews as a scapegoat, because they were an easy target.

Nature meaning the individual. No one has ever had a choice since the beginning of time. The only difference is that what gave greater satisfaction to hurt others in the past will be replaced by the desire not to hurt others as the preferable alternative. How this is accomplished is amazing, but you don’t seem interested at all in understanding how this can actually become a reality. :frowning:

Everything is in sync with nature unfolding only as it must like clockwork, but that does not mean we are not co-creaters in what unfolds, as our choices, although unfree, play an important part in this inevitable unfolding.

right, because we’re anthropomorphizing nature when we say it can ‘prescribe’, just like we are when we use the word ‘determine’. it’s the ordinary uses of these words and their connotations that confuse the frick out of these arguments when they’re used in a philosophical environment.

in every way that we use the word ‘determine’, there are grammatical elements involved that make no sense when we use the word to describe some aspect of nature. it’s because of the family resemblance of the words ‘cause’ and ‘determine’ that leads to this overlooked misuse. subtle little intersections of meaning that evade us. like i might say ‘joe is determined to go to the store’ and mean ‘joe has in mind going to the store’. but if i said ‘the storm has determined the floods to happen’, i couldn’t mean ‘the storm had in mind causing the floods.’

better to stick with ‘cause’. so look… we can’t say that nature prescribes ‘in advance’ what biggy will choose… but we can say nature is in way x such that in the next thirty seconds, the result will be biggy’s choice y. we’d not say anything about being ‘in advance’ because nature does no ‘determining’ (does not deliberate), but we must say that given state of nature at time x, state of nature y was going to follow necessarily. which means, there is no ‘choice’ here, because biggy cannot prevent state of nature y.

So does the word “free”. The only “free” we are interested in regarding this argument is whether we are free to choose otherwise. If we could have chosen otherwise, we could then accept freedom of the will, but we don’t have free will because we are constrained by our very nature (which we cannot escape from) to choose ONLY the alternative which we believe offers us the greater satisfaction of the options available, and there is only one choice that can be made each and every moment of time. Compatibilists try make a case that some choices are not free (if they meet the compatibilist qualification of no physical or emotional constraint) and some are. In their way of thinking people who make the wrong choice (according to the law) deserve retributive justice because, according to their way of thinking, they could have chosen better. This division between free and not free is a false distinction (because no one is free in a free will sense) which confuses the truth and allows for the the status quo of blame, punishment, retaliation, and just desert to continue without looking deeper for a better solution.

The state of nature x can only predict state of nature y to follow necessarily if there is a direct cause and effect relationship like the storm causing floods. There is no choice. If I misstep and fall due to a tree branch I didn’t see, cause and effect will force me to go down. But it’s not the same with biggy. It cannot be predicted that biggy will necessarily choose y from state of x because there is no way such an accurate prediction can be made until biggy in fact, chooses y. There is no causal chain coming from nature forcing biggy to choose y, which the conventional definition of determinism implies and many philosophers object to. This goes back to the confusion with the word “cause”, which is a misnomer since it implies that necessarily biggy must choose y even if y is not his preference. There is a subtle difference between saying “he was compelled, of his own free will (which only means of his own desire), to choose y because under the circumstances it gave him greater satisfaction (which is the only choice he could have made since he can’t move in the direction of dissatisfaction)” in contrast to "necessarily he was forced to choose y because that is how it was programmed all the way back to the Big Bang even if the choice was against his will. No past event (even if it was a minute ago) can force us to choose a particular option. We make choices in the present based on the factors that are being considered. All this means is that there is nothing that says a person cannot alter his choice up to the instant a choice is made. Making choices based on contingency does not mean we have the kind of autonomy that frees us from the law of determinism or greater satisfaction. Due to the fact that man’s will is not free, everything that has ever happened up until the present time was predestined to happen because we were never given a free choice.

Again, I can only imagine those truly autonomus aliens following this exchange. Here you are once again agreeing that I have no “choice” but to go around and around in sync with how nature has compelled me to embody a particular sense of greater satisfaction, and me necessarily insisting that this is only a nominal “choice” and not an actual autonomous choice like the aliens made to follow this exchange.

But that somehow I might “choose” to change my response as though that too is not just the embodiment of the laws of matter manifested in brain matter that has emerged necessarily from the evolution of life on earth.

In a wholly determined universe there either are or are not connecting dots. The fact that you don’t know for sure yourself merely reinforces my point about the gap between what you think you know about these relationships here and now and all that would need to be known. All that can be known. And this is now deemed to be okay by you because nature compels you to see/feel/experience this frame of mind as reflecting a necessary sense of greater satisfaction.

If and when you are ever able to actually demonstrate this beyond merely asserting that it is true in a “world of words” I will be most interested in witnessing it.

You will either be compelled someday by nature to grasp how ridiculous nature has compelled me to view this or you won’t. How can the past, present or future not be profoundly intertwined in whatever is “behind” the existence of existence itself?

It would be like someone who has absolutely no understaning of an automobile as an actual entity being given a sparkplug and then asked to encompass what a car is. In other words, given all of the “unknown unknowns” that must stand between what we think reality is now and all that is yet to be grasped about it down the road.

But to think like that widens the gap considerably between the human condition as it is now and this fabled “progressive” future that you have thought up in your head. So, of course you going to shrug off those “unknown unknowns”.

As for this…

…how is it not just one more gigantic “intellectual contraption” bursting at the seams with assumptions that in no way shape or form are actually demonstrated to be true? Again, from my frame of mind, the whole point of “thinking up” an alternative reality to “brute facticity” embedded in a human existence that has no meaning or purpose behind it – and that ends in the obliteration of “I” forever and ever – is to create a psychological defense mechanism that allows for some measure of comfort and consolation in what can be a truly grim and gruesome “human reality” from day to day.

And, sure, to the extent that the author and you are able to actually believe it, more power to you.

And around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around we go. Then I’m back to this:

Until nature compels you to reconfigure your argument into something that makes this part go away nature will continue to compel me to react as I do now.

If nature and “I” are one and the same then the accelerator must be pushed and the red light must be run. And if there are terrible consequences as a result of that, well, que sera sera…right?

How on earth can you possibly know this?! You can’t even admit to yourself how crucial that relationship must be for grappling with determinism in that context which encompasses all of existence itself.

Instead, you wrap everything around that puny 5% that we still are a long, long way from fully grasping because that which you claim to grasp now is the part that comforts and consoles you.

Looking back in hindsight? How are we not in turn fated to look back at the Holocuast in hindsight only as nature compells us to? How is the greater satisfaction that we get in doing this really any different from the greater satisfaction that folks back then got in using the Jews as a scapegoat? Nothing is not compelled in a wholly determined universe as I am either compelled or not compelled to understand it.

I’ll tell you how I think the author accomplish it: in his head. Then it’s only a matter of whether he could have chosen autonomousy to perhaps have accomplish something else instead.

Let’s just say that we are far, far removed regarding what “for all practical purposes” this tells us about human interactions out in a wholly determined world.

Connecting the dots in a way you believe is necessary not what is actually necessary. A discovery has been made and you refuse to want to know more about it. I agree, you cannot help yourself because your responses are part of your background and heredity that make you say what you say and believe what you believe, true or not.

He has without a doubt shown that we move in the direction of greater satisfaction, rendering only one choice possible each moment in time. Will is not free, and you cannot escape this fact no matter how you try to make the case that autonomy or free will, or the ability to act or behave outside of natural law is a real possibility because you continue to define determinism as being nothing more than a domino without a will to resist being forced to do what you really wish you didn’t have to do. I have no desire to prove anything iambiguous. You have a one track mind, and you are committed to creating a false narrative.

You’re right, this isn’t going to work. You are bringing into the equation something that is totally unnecessary. You are creating a prerequisite that is ridiculous because it’s like saying I would have to know all the causes in a deterministic world to learn anything new, create anything new, or advance in anything new.

No one has to understand anything other than how to use a sparkplug in a moving vehicle, which is what a car is. Of course he would have to know what a car does to work on how a car can be better designed. He needs not know anything more about the existential reasons for why cars were created to make a better designed car. You’re off base.

Um, I think our progressive future has come to fruition in many ways through all kinds of discoveries. How you call this fabled, I have no idea. I’m very well aware that there are unknowns. But the FACT that will is not free IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

In your desire to be open-minded you are extremely closed minded and the antithesis of a true investigator. We all know you’re not to blame so don’t repeat yourself. You read one paragraph and you already have come to a conclusion that this is an intellectual contraption. You are lost in your own confused thinking which is the intellectual contraption you don’t realize you are caught up in.

You should not be reading this book. Please stay in your gruesome “human reality” if you feel this knowledge is just a psychological defense mechanism. It’s anything but. I don’t think there is any purpose to our continuing the conversation because you will only fight me without really taking the time to understand the principles.

YOU STILL DON’T GET IT. Nature is YOU and therefore being you, you cannot be forced to push on the accelerator and take the risk of killing someone, UNLESS YOU WANT TO. In a court of law they would not accept the excuse that nature made you hit a person because of running the red light. You hit the person because you desired to speed up, and the person became the collateral damage. Now you would be forced to pay for what you did. But before you push on the accelerator, you have a choice. Once you make the choice, it could not have been otherwise. But now there is a way to increase responsibility to such a high degree that under the same conditions you would never desire to take a chance speeding up, and the accident would be avoided as a consequence. But you’re not interested in knowing how this is possible since you have already made up your mind that “for all practical purposes” there is nothing here that can change human conduct. Your mindset is in stone.

No iambiguous. You are using the fact that if we cannot understand the entire universe we can’t begin to understand anything. The 5% that we can know here and now is more important in the scheme of things than the 95% that we may never come to understand. We are a small planet but it’s our home. Discoveries have been made that have improved our world and the human beings that live here. This discovery is one of them, and a very significant one.

The fact that you keep repeating what you know I already know is true and have agreed with umpteen times, is just delaying any productive conversation.

Tell me, how else could a discovery be made if not through someone’s intellect (which is in his head) using astute observation and careful analysis as tools to create something new from things old? To say “in his head” the way you’re using it is to be derogating due to your lack of understanding and misplaced skepticism.

This knowledge “for all practical purposes” is able to show the way out of misery, hatred, greed, poverty, murder, jealousy, and war (because of its ability to change every aspect of human relation from economics to child rearing, to the medical field) and you tell me without any understanding of this law and how its applied that you know more than the author did after 30 years of observation and careful analysis of what you think this discovery can do or not do. How absurd!

Peacegirl,

Arrogant name, but, whatever.

Many people are masochists, they find joy on wounds being constantly afflicted upon them.

In order to find someone willing to do this, besides themselves, they need to find sadists.

sadists don’t like masochists, because the whole point of being a sadist is to derive joy by violating consent, which is hard to do to a masochist.

The point is, people have mutually exclusive consents, or as iambiguous would say, conflicting goods.

So if everyone is seeking pleasure but everywhere you look you find polar opposites of what pleasure is, you don’t have a solid philosophic principle.

Not only did you not discover anything new, which you brazenly claim is the newly discovered answer to world peace - you are also wrong.

let me tell you what i really do. i soak myself in lamp oil, and then i burn myself in front of the crowd. […] i’m also known very very well for pulling large pieces of furniture from my ass

What does that have to do with anything? You can get satisfaction out of being a masochist.

These are people who get joy out of hurting others. This is not something they were born with, which is what you’re insinuating. I wasn’t born yesterday Ecmandu. I know the depth of pain people can impose on others. These behaviors didn’t come out of nowhere. The removal of these behaviors will also be eliminated when a changed environment produces changed behaviors. You’re acting as there’s nothing we, as a society, can do to prevent these type behaviors, but you’re incorrect. When the environment that triggered these behaviors is changed, so will the behaviors.

Conflicts are symptomatic of a society where people are struggling to survive. Conflicting goods can be eliminated when everyone has their basic needs met. Self-preservation is the first law of nature and without it conflict is bound to occur.

This is not the pleasure principle. People do many things for greater satisfaction that have nothing to do with pleasure. You are the brazen one to come into a thread and claim that you know what you’re saying when you don’t know the first thing. You’re all so arrogant. You give a bad name to philosophy.

How on earth can you possibly know what is actually necessary here given that the existence of determinism [as either you or I understand it] seems to be encompassed in only 5% of the universe that science has just barely begun to scratch the surface in understanding?

And then back again to…

1] accusing me of refusing to want to know about this discovery

and

2] acknowledging that I can’t help but refuse to

This makes sense to you. It doesn’t to me.

See, that’s our problem here. What I deem to be a discovery able to be demonstrated, you still confine to the definitions that the author gives to the words used in his “analysis” and “assessment” of these relationships. The part where this “world of words” is connected to actual human interactions able to be approached and understood through experiments, predictions and replicated results is no where to be found. Still.

And since there is seemingly no way around this for you, you shift gears and turn the argument into a critique of me. I have a one track mind. I am commited to a false narrative. While once again [no doubt] admitting that I was never actually able not to embody these things.

Thus [over and again]:

No, in a determined universe as I have come to understand it, I have necessarily brought into nature’s equation that which you have necessarily attempted to debunk.

And, no, I am suggesting that one would need to have a complete understanding of existence itself before grasping the part that either determinism or autonomy plays in human interactions. That’s just common sense to me.

And [in my view] you need to ask yourself why you seem [increasingly] compelled to attack me with these accusatory interjections. From my frame of mind [in an autonomous world] it is because you have invested so much of your own particular “I” [psychologically] in the confort and consolation the the author’s argument has provided you. I am a threat to that. The intellectual contraption that the author has created is at risk of tumbling down. And I know of this calamity myself because my own objectivist contraptions are to this day still in heaps of rubble all around me.

“I” am fractured and fragmented here in a way that most folks will do almost anything to avoid. Both in terms of the is/ought world and in terms of all those really, really Big Questions that “I” will almost certainly go to grave without answers to.

No, I am necessarily off base in a wholly determined universe as I understand it. I’m just grappling to figure out if, autonomously, I have the capacity to comprehend how you understand it. In other words, given those parts we seem to overlap regarding.

And what of those who curse the internal combustion engine in cars and yearn to create a “progressive” future in which mass transit is the primary means of moving us about? What will the future actually be? And what actual choice do any of us have in bringing it about?

Here [of course] you completely avoid responding to my question. How is this not “an ‘intellectual contraption’ bursting at the seams with assumptions that in no way shape or form are actually demonstrated to be true?”

Because in my view that is clearly what it is.

There you go again [in my view] reacting subjunctively in a manner in which I would expect someone who believes in free will might. Becoming aggitated that I am still refusing to grasp the importance of the author’s discovery in a world where I am never able to react to it other than as I do. Which is as I must.

No, I still cannot get it. Not until nature compels me to get it. Maybe in the next post. Maybe on the next tread. Or maybe never at all. If “I” am not just along for the ride – inherently, necessarily embedded in “nature’s way” – then, sure, I am not understanding – defining – nature and determinism correctly. Like I have any real choice to.

Which brings me to to this part. My latest contribution to your own Determinism thread:

[b]Then we head in the direction that peacegirl always seems to go:

Frank S. Robinson from “Defending Free Will & The Self” in Philosophy Now magazine

Which is basically my point here as well. But she somehow sees this point as missing her point. And even though I am not able to not miss her point, I still seem to be “responsible” for missing it. In a way I am simply unable to grasp.[/b]

Yes, but in a wholly determined universe as I understand it, all of the proceddings in this court of law would no less unfold only as they were ever able to.

Right?

Obviously, once a choice is made it cannot be unmade. But if that choice was never able not to have been made in the first place…?

Everything in the courtroom is set in stone. If that “stone” comprises the immutable laws of matter [including the human brain begetting human consciousness beggetting human interactions] unfolding only as they are/can/must necessarily.

That in my view is nothing short of ridiculous. Consider what our species thought it knew about that 5% of the universe 5,000 years ago. And what it knows now. How on earth could computer technology and the internet come into existence unless human knowledge of the seeming either/or world hadn’t exploded over the past centuries?

But that still doesn’t make the fact that the other 95% is still beyond the reach even of those who pursue knowledge using the scientific method.

What “method” have you or the author employed so far? You “think up” certain assumptions about matter [and a “progressive” furture] in that 5% and then shrug off the rest of it as really not all that important at all in fitting a complete understanding of human consciousness into existence itself.

We are expected to accept thinking like this…

…as being as far as it is necessary for our species to go. When, in my view, it is as far as you are willing to go in order to broach and then sustain considerably more psychological comfort and consolation than folks like me are able to.

Only, in a determined universe as I understand it, as far as you are willing to go is really just another way of saying as far as you are able to go.

No, the fact that I am not “for all practical purposes” able to not keep repeating myself until whatever propels nature to unfold as it must compels me to is the main point of my argument. As though it really is the “choice” that “I” make here that is holding things up!

Or: Tell me, how can someone’s intellect not be entirely the product of nature having reconfgured matter through the evolution of life on earth into someone’s brain wholly in sync with the laws of matter? How can anything created [old or new] not be entirely in sync with the same? Ditto for human understanding and skepticism. What on earth is not compelled to unfold only as nature necessitates it to?

Just as nature necessitated this:

Now let’s see if nature can actually pull it off “in the future”. In reality as it were.

My guess: Neither you nor I will be around to confirm it. One way or the other.

Unless, in some mysterious way the author hints at, “I” actually will be.

I already answered this. We are not talking about the entire universe. We are talking about man’s will.

I’m accusing you of accusing me.

I can point something out to you without accusing you of having a choice.

What he did was just a clarification of determinism. He didn’t change the definition to mean something altogether different. The only difference he pointed out is that even though will is not free, nothing can make you do what you don’t want to do. Many people think determinism means you have to do what you are forced to do, even if it’s against your will. His clarification of determinism is correct. Remember, definitions mean nothing where reality is concerned unless it reflects reality.

I am not critiquing you. I’m sorry you don’t like my wording. I am only pointing out that you keep using the excuse that you can’t help the way you respond. If you wanted to respond differently, you could. Nothing is stopping you but your desire not to change. To repeat: it is true that once you give a response it could not have been otherwise, but my correcting you may alter your response subsequently based on my response. We are constantly evaluating and reevaluating our responses based on input from the external world.

You are in a world of words, not me. “Behind” the existence of existence itself is very arcane and makes it seem like there’s no answer that could possibly be valid. I don’t have to grasp the reason you view the importance that lies behind existence itself as necessary to understanding that man’s will is not free and what this means for our benefit. It’s not a prerequisite.

This author demonstrated a two-sided equation. Nothing to do with math, per se. What’s your equation?

But that leaves you with a free floating “I can oppose you whenever you lean to one side.” You don’t take a position. I am taking a position because there is no such thing as free will, or autonomy as you like to put it, which only means the ability to think for yourself. Determinism doesn’t prevent anyone from thinking for themselves, but you make it appear (by the way you interpret determinism to mean) as if you can’t think for yourself (you’re just a robot doing what nature causes you to do) if your will is not free. This is far from true. I can ask a question to a child and say to him, don’t ask anyone else what they think. Think for yourself. Do you actually think this makes his will free?

Stop acting like a victim when you aren’t one. You want me to turn the other cheek after you slap me in the face by your accusation that my interest in this knowledge is only a psychological defense mechanism.

You are no threat. I am not depending on you for anything. To be clear, you are making assumptions about knowledge you haven’t read, or even cared to read. You don’t see yourself. You are coming off as this innocent person who is being accused yet you accusing me of using this knowledge as a defense mechanism, nothing more. This is a serious insult which requires me to be very clear about who is striking the first blow. If someone strikes a first blow, the one being struck is justified to strike back.

You can ponder the Big Questions all you want and never get a satisfactory answer. Maybe we’re not supposed to understand the Big Questions. The Big Questions are existential in nature. Science, on the other hand, can catapult us closer to the truth with each new discovery, creating a better world for all. Socrates was known for saying, “Know Thyself” which we are at last getting to understand.

You have the capacity to understand what I’m saying if you really take the time. This is not rocket science. The problem is your resistance to trying. We don’t know how the future will unfold or the time it will take for this discovery to be brought to light. It will depend on many factors that cannot be predicted. Just like we didn’t know that we would replace candles with incandescent light for most of our lighting needs. What does this have to do with the fact that will is not free and what this means for the betterment of mankind?

Your view doesn’t mean much when you have only read a paragraph and are assuming that because he didn’t die, he couldn’t know what death is. He found clues that demonstrate we are born again and again, not the “I” that is you now. This is a difficult concept but before you even read his observations, you immediately jump to the conclusion that this is “an intellectual contraption.” These words you constantly use keep you at a distance so you don’t have to do anything but repeat the same old refrain.

I am allowed to be agitated, even if you couldn’t react to it other than as you do. It doesn’t matter. Our nature doesn’t change just because we know will is not free. I am also reacting to you the way I am compelled to react to you. Determinism doesn’t turn us into non-thinking, not emotional robots that don’t have the ability to answer in a way that we see fit.

Maybe if you stopped pooh poohing this knowledge and gave it a shot, you would get it. You’re not allowing yourself to get it. I know you can’t help yourself.

All I can say is keep trying. Maybe you will get it someday.

You choose chocolate over vanilla because you prefer it, but you can’t choose what you prefer.

No one said you’re responsible for not understanding it. You are not responsible for slamming on the accelerator either and possibly killing someone. Your will is not free so who is blaming you?

That should be understood by now, but that was not my point in explaining what happens in a free will society.

The only way we can know that the choice was never able not to have been made in the first place is when we make it. We cannot determine that the choice was already made in advance of it being made, as if our choice was prescribed or fated to happen even if we didn’t give consent to it. But we do have a choice every moment of every day, although the choice we make after deliberation could not have been otherwise.

But don’t you see, the courtroom is set in stone in the here in now. It is not set in stone that the court of law, as we know it, will continue to be the best procedure therefore it may be replaced by something better.

Let it go! :stuck_out_tongue:

youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU

And information technology is continuing to explode without understanding the part of the universe we don’t understand. Geeze! #-o

The point is we human beings are advancing by huge leaps and bounds within the 5% of knowledge that you say doesn’t count for much.

You’re talking gobbledegook now. I have no assumptions about matter. The will of man is not free, period. This is not an assumption. A progressive future is based on this knowledge, which you have no understanding of. I never said other discoveries won’t be made and we won’t learn more about the universe, but what does this have to do with the discovery that I’m presenting? Nothing.

Wow, you are continuing to make false accusations, probably because you can’t wrap your head around the fact that this is a genuine discovery.

You have a choice every single time you make a choice. You have a choice right now to stay or to leave this thread. If you stay, your choice in the direction of greater satisfaction is to stay. Don’t tell me you had to stay because you didn’t have a choice, and that the choice was already embedded in the laws of matter, which make it seem, the way it’s expressed, that the choice was already made for you (i .e. that you necessarily must choose that option) which is exactly what compatibilists disagree with. There is nothing that says you must make a particular choice UNLESS YOU WANT TO. Don’t you see that?

Everything had to be just as it unfolded, but it’s a modal fallacy to say necessarily you must choose to stay in this thread. You stay in this thread because it gives you greater satisfaction than to leave, not because you are being forced by the Big Bang that says you must follow a prescribed path if it’s not your preference.

No worries, you will be, not your posterity. :slight_smile:

Does or does not “man’s will” – free or determined – exist in the universe? Is there or is there not a definitive explanation for that?

And how on earth could this not be profoundly intertwined in the things we are discussing here? It’s just plain silly to me to argue that one isn’t integral to the other.

Besides, I asked and you answered in accordance with whatever that explanation might be. But: Only if the human brain is even capable of grasping something like that. Given that in some capacity the conscious mind is able to pursue it with some measure of autonomy.

Who cares if any and all accusations made by mere mortals are what they were only ever able to be.

Who cares if everything we point out is only as we ever could have pointed it out.

Another “world of words” that swirl around the definition and the meaning given to the words in the “assessment” itself. Connected to no other demonstration that the words are in fact true experientially relating to actual human interactions. The only “reality” here is the intellectual ccontraption. Words he was determined to write, words you were determined to post here, words I am determined to read. But only if my own assessment of determinism is true. And how on earth would I go about actually demonstrating that?!

Well, not of your own free will.

I’m sorry I wasn’t able to consider the wording and then, of my own volition, like the wording instead.

This is the part where I point out that in a determined universe [as I understand it] nothing that I want or desire is not in turn beyond my autonomous control. The external world and the internal world are all necessarily in sync with the laws of matter.

Well, autonomously or not, we’ll have to just agree to disagree about this. First blow, last blow. And all the blows inbetween. Just don’t call them “fated”?

Note to others:

All I can do here is to consider your own attempts to explain this better. Do I or do I not have the true capacity to understand her here? Is my resistence something that I have any true capacity to “for all practical purposes” reverse?

Given what you think she is attempting to convey about human will in a determined universe.

What does it mean to speak of behaviors being “allowed” in a determined universe? You acknowledge that I could not have reacted to it other than as I did. As in fact I must. And that you could not have been anything other than agitated as you were at my reaction. As you must have been. But this thinking and feeling of ours is not “robotic”? What we are to the dominoes, nature is not to us?

All I can do is to note how peculiar it seems to me to argue that I can’t help but do the things that I am determined to do but that I should stop doing them anyway.

It’s irrelevant. I don’t have to know if 1+1 is true in the entire universe to know that 1+1=2 is true on earth.

It’s not silly at all. It actually gets us somewhere. Otherwise you’re just staring at your navel and pondering questions that cannot be answered.

You refuse to consider that determinism does not mean we don’t have the kind of autonomy that would necessitate free will, especially the way it’s accurately defined.

That’s your cop-out. You wondered why I was accusing you. I answered that you accused me first by saying things about me that are wrong. All you do is go in circles because you repeat what we already know. All you ever say is how you could not have answered the way you answered. I KNOW THAT IAMBIGUOUS, but it certainly doesn’t get us any further.

Is anyone here getting my points or am I wasting my breath?

The reason you don’t see a demonstration is because you’re not letting me demonstrate. We haven’t gotten past Chapter One in the book let alone the first three chapters. And to call this an intellectual contraption is a joke. You have no clue, and yes, you can’t help yourself.

Of course it’s not of my own free will. That should be understood by now.

Again, you keep going back to your innocence. And by the way, you do have the volition (or autonomy) to change your mind due to contingent events or sudden changes and still be in sync with the laws of matter.

So where’s the argument? Determinism does not mean autonomous control (what I call the control to give or deny consent to an action) is out of sync with the laws of matter or what gives greater satisfaction.

You’re confused here. Fate does not dictate in advance how a situation must turn out. After someone gets killed, you can call it fate ordained, but not before.

You have the capacity but your way of thinking about determinism is so entrenched, I don’t think it’s possible to reverse.

Iambiguous, you refuse to look at the distinction. I said many times that dominoes have no choice. Humans do have a choice, although not a free one. This means that given a different environment, we can change the trajectory of our world but still in the direction of greater satisfaction. IOW, nature doesn’t say that necessarily we must have war, crime, and poverty because a deterministic universe planned it that way and there is no recourse.

You are using determinism to justify victim behavior. That’s all you’re doing, as if you can’t change your ways if YOU WANT TO. =;

It’s irrelevant to you. Therefore others are obligated to see it as irrelevant too? Even in an autononmous universe? After all, in a wholly determined universe, the laws of matter decide what we think we know is true or not true.

It gets us somewhere because you simply dismiss all those “unknown unknowns” as irrelevant to that which you seek to convey here: that your own “progressive” future hinges on having enough people “choose” to grasp the author’s wholly determined point of view.

You acknowledge there are seemingly questions that cannot be answered but whatever those answers might be have nothing to do with your own answers here and now.

Then [in my view] back to your own rendition of “definitional logic”:

What compels me to refuse here? Is it “I” or my brain embedded in that which compels nature to compel all of us to think, feel, say and do things that are ever and always wholly in sync with the laws of matter?

Like whatever gets us further is not in turn just another inherent, necessary manifestion of nature.

You ask…

As though any of us can actually choose of our own free will to get them. From my frame of mind the more you embrace the idea of “choosing” to get things, the more you sound just like the libertarians who argue that they actully do choose to get things.

And the reason I’m not letting you…? Then around and around we go. Only I am more than willing to concede that my frame of mind here is beyond my own capacity to demonstrate as either free or determined. How on earth could I possibly know that given all that I am still unable to grasp about the objective relationship between “I” and “all there is”. If it is even objective at all.

On the Science Channel last night they speculated about yet another component embedded in the mystery of our existing universe:
sciencechannel.com/tv-shows … a-hologram

“I” in the hologram?

Entrenched? Exactly!!

Or maybe others here may well succeed in helping me to understand the different ways in which being entrenched might be understood in a determined universe.

Like this “different environment” is within our actual capacity to make more “progressive”. Like if enough of us “choose” to read and concur with the author’s own determined assumptions above, nature at least stands a chance of being more in sync with your own moral and political prejudices regarding that which constitutes “peace and prosperity”.

And this [of course] has nothing to do with my own assumption that [either freely or not] you and the author have concocted this frame of mind in order to sustain the psychological “comfort and consolation” that it brings you.

No, I am pointing out that one very important consequence of embracing a wholly determined universe is that being a victim is just an illusion. You become only that which you were never able not to become. Wanting to or not wanting to is no less embodied in the laws of matter unfolding necessarily in accordance to…to what exactly?

To the physics behind the hologram above? To God’s will?

But here you are able to sustain what may or may not be the illusion that you know best how to grasp these extraordinary relationships.

No one is obligated to see anything they don’t want to see. I am not out of line though to say that it’s irrelevant to know whether 1+1 is true in the entire universe to know that it is true here on earth and is the basic building block of many physical structures.

This new world is not dependent on your understanding specifically.

They don’t. They are irrelevant because they don’t apply.

It is not definitional logic to give an accurate definition of what is actually taking place in the real world.

The mind of man is so utterly confused with words that it will require painstaking clarification to clear away the logical cobwebs of ignorance that have accumulated through the years.

I have never denied this, but you refuse to consider that nature cannot make you do anything against your will. This entire 10 pages has only been a repeat of two sound principles 1) WE ARE COMPELLED TO MOVE IN THE DIRECTION OF GREATER SATISFACTION and 2) NOTHING, NOT EVEN NATURE, CAN MAKE OR FORCE US TO DO ANYTHING AGAINST OUR WILL IF WE DON’T PERMIT IT. Why can’t you be a good investigator to see where this leads rather than waste lots of bandwidth?

I told you I’m not accusing you of refusing to want to know about this discovery if you’re not interested. I know your lack of interest is beyond your control.

Because accusations are a form of attack, which lead to counterattacks. This can be on an individual or a collective scale, which warrants attention if we want to prevent conflicts that often lead to war, crime, and other forms of hurt.

Who is saying it’s not? But again, being that every action is in the direction of greater satisfaction does not mean you can’t change your Modus operandi if you want to. Your signature answers are keeping you stuck.

This needs qualification again. If “of your own free will” means “of your own desire”, yes you can actually choose a different way of responding IF you find that your present way of responding isn’t helpful.

I’ve clarified this many times. You actually DO choose to get things. That is where part of the confusion lies. Although choice is not free the second you choose, of meaningful differences, what you prefer, you could have not chosen otherwise. But this doesn’t mean you didn’t have a choice beforehand.

[i]It is true that nothing in the past
can cause what occurs in the present, for all we ever have is the
present; the past and future are only words that describe a deceptive
relation. Consequently, determinism was faced with an almost
impossible task because it assumed that heredity and environment
caused man to choose evil, and the proponents of free will believed the
opposite, that man was not caused or compelled, ‘he did it of his own
accord; he wanted to do it, he didn’t have to.’
The term ‘free will’
contains an assumption or fallacy for it implies that if man is not
caused or compelled to do anything against his will, it must be
preferred of his own free will. This is one of those logical, not
mathematical conclusions. The expression, ‘I did it of my own free
will’ is perfectly correct when it is understood to mean ‘I did it because
I wanted to; nothing compelled or caused me to do it since I could
have acted otherwise had I desired.’ This expression was necessarily
misinterpreted because of the general ignorance that prevailed for
although it is correct in the sense that a person did something because
he wanted to, this in no way indicates that his will is free. In fact I
shall use the expression ‘of my own free will’ frequently myself which
only means ‘of my own desire.’

Religion was compelled to believe that God was not responsible
for the evil in the world, whereas Spinoza and Christ believed correctly
that there was no such thing as evil when seen in total perspective.
But how was it possible, except for people like Christ and Spinoza, to
forgive those who trespassed against them? And how was it possible
for those who became victims of this necessary evil to look at it in
total perspective? Is it any wonder man cried out to God for
understanding? The time has arrived to clear up all the confusion and
reconcile these two opposite principles, which requires that you keep
an open mind and proceed with the investigation.
[/i]

The objective relationship between you and all there is, is irrelevant to the knowledge that life on earth moves in one direction only, rendering FREE choice an illusion, but a persistent one. How in the world can our choices be free when we are under a compulsion to choose what gives us greater satisfaction from one moment to another? This is an invariable law that cannot be broken.

I am only interested in demonstrating how we can eliminate the hurt in human relations right here on earth. There are so many theories out there.
Holograms may be interesting to think about but they do not negate the authenticity of this discovery.

When you say “determined universe” you are implying that you are just a peg in a wheel. If we are to communicate you need to stop thinking that you have no choice before you do something. We were given the attribute of contemplation which is comprised of options.

Not only are you assuming that the author made assumptions (which he didn’t), but now you are assuming I have moral and political prejudices. :open_mouth:

Another accusation, eh? If this wasn’t such an important discovery, this conversation would be humorous! :laughing:

Just because everything had to be does not mean we can’t prevent people from becoming victims (those that have been hurt by others) and it certainly doesn’t mean we can’t define the word.

[i]vic·tim
/ˈviktəm/
noun

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.[/i]

Hologram or no hologram, the purpose of this discovery is to show how we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment were previously necessary… but when this knowledge will be brought to light is anyone’s guess. I just hope it’s sooner rather than later. :confused: