back to the beginning: morality

Okay, let’s bring these “assessments” down to earth. There is what John believes is true subjectively about gun control “in his head”; and there is everything that we can determine is true objectively about gun ownership out in the world of human interactions.

But some philosophers here seem more intent on first establishing what we can know – know – about human ethics up in the “general description” clouds of abstraction. We must first rigorously define the meaning of the words we use in our discussions/debates. And indeed we can encounter arguments that go on and on for pages and barely touch down on or in any particular context where actual behaviors do come into conflict over value judgments.

Instead, only after having being in sync technically, intellectually can we then go on to assess the moral parameters of gun control such that we can then go on to establish legislation that will go a long way toward minimizing – eliminating? – the sort of carnage we just witnessed in El Paso and Dayton.

Same with human sexuality. Only when we are entirely clear and in sync technically, intellectually, philosophically about those behaviors argued to be objectively good or objectively bad can we jettison such “external measures” as God and establish moral obligations in regard any and all sexual behaviors.

Then even the sexual sociopaths who, in a No God world, insist that morality here revolves around satiating their own wants and needs can at least know that philosophically they are behaving immorally.

Question of the Month
“Is Morality Objective?”
From Philosophy Now magazine
Jonathan Tipton

And, yet, for many, after the “initial” reaction is long gone they are still fiercely convinced there is [there must be] an intrinsic value to be found in one set of behaviors over another.

Some, of course, will allow themselves to acknowledge the complexities we can encounter out in the real world:

But this sort of thinking is almost never taken in the direction that I go on this thread. Instead, the assumption is made that when push comes to shove, complexities or not, there is still a fundamental obligation to be found in any given context. We might not be able to quite pin it down but it’s still there.

For some through God and for others through Humanism.

But it is clearly not possible for many to believe there is no final obligation at all. The implications of that for human interactions is just too…dreadful?

Even the Karpel Tunnels among us who accept that objective morality is not likely to be around, concoct a rendition of “pragmatism” that still manages to afford them some measure of comfort and consolation given the behaviors that they choose.

I’m simply unable to grasp how this actually “works” for them “in their head” given the manner in which I have come to understand the role that dasein and conflicting goods plays in human interactions out in the is/ought world. The “fractured and fragmented” sense of “self” down in the “hole”.

This is what my own subjectivist / objectivist mind thinks about this from an essentially objectivist perspective which is the correct one :

Morality by definition is subjective so the notion of objective morality is an oxymoron and therefore something that is logically impossible
The irony therefore is that those who declare morality to be objective are without realising it making a statement that is purely subjective

Even if it did exist the fact that it would at least in part be subject to interpretation would render it subjective / objective rather than truly objective

Human minds usually like things to be nice and simple which is why they want morality to be objective but only within their own imagination can it be so
Morality as a concept with real world application is anything but nice and simple for reality is itself not nice or simple so there must be consistency here

Morality is objective.

If it is true for all possible subjects, its objective.

It is true for all possible subjects that nobody wants their consent violated. That’s an objective law of good / bad. Someone tried to claim that masochists are the obvious exception, this is false. Masochists feel pleasure where most people feel pain, this is not a statement of consent, there are probably an infinite number of ways that you can violate the consent of a masochist.

Since everyone in existence is having their consent violated in one form or another, we reach a second law of morality - existence is morally wrong as it currently is. It’s bad. It’s currently evil.

The question is: will it always be evil?

This always gets tricky [for me] because in discussions of morality [in philosophy venues], we can slide in and out of the “technical” components embedded in logic and epistemology, and the “existential” components embedded in points of view regarding particular conflicting goods.

“I” is ever and always the subject inherently citing subjective points of view about morality as an objective truth.

Were there no subjects around there would be no discussions.

After all, up until the evolution of matter into self-conscious minds [assuming some measure of free will] this whole controversy would be entirely moot.

So, sure, “I” is the subject. But in regard to human interactions “I” seems clearly able to establish some things and some relationships as true objectively for all of us.

And isn’t that really as far as we can go?

We are no less subjects when we point out that 22 human beings were killed by Patrick Wood Crusius in a recent mass shooting in El Paso. And there are many, many facts that all rational men and women would be able to concur regarding.

But when he explains why he felt justified in doing what he did, how are philosophers/ethicists able to establish that in fact this constituted [objectively] an immoral act?

Or that objectively it is immoral for private citizens to own assault weapons.

Or that objectively it is possible to establish the optimal or the only rational argument in regard to immigration policy.

My own subjective frame of mind “here and now” is basically in sync with this. It seems a reasonable manner in which to think it through.

But in turn I deem it to be nothing more than another existential contraption. There does not appear to be a way in which to establish beyond all doubt that all rational men and women are obligated to share this frame of mind.

And that is because there does not appear to be a way in which to rule out entirely the existence of God. Or, sans God, the existence of an argument able to be demonstrated as in fact an obligatory frame of mind for reasonable and virtuous human beings.

I can only note instead how “here and now” I think this instead of that. Knowing that a new experience, a new relationship or access to new information and knowledge might result in me changing my mind.

Iambiguous,

I answered your question perfectly through non contradiction.

You are scared of the only true and possible answer.

Your consent is currently being violated by a fragmented self and conflicting goods.

Your entire being is a just a horrible, disingenuous subset of my sublime

Admittedly, I’ve never been exactly sure how seriously to take you. Sometimes you come off [to me] as just another godawful Kid here. Other times as [even worse] another godawful objectivist Kid.

But, sure, maybe I’m wrong.

All I can do is to bring your “general description” argument above down to earth.

Now, in regard to the El Paso shooting above, how does someone not wanting his or her consent violated factor into your overall view of objective morality.

The people he shot did not consent to being killed by him. On the other hand, he did not consent to people coming into the country that violate his own sense of what makes America great.

How [philosophically] is it determined which consent here takes precedence?

Same with the argument over assault rifles.

Some give their consent to owning them while others give their consent to living in the country where they are banned.

And neither want their respective consent to be violated.

So [philosophically] which consent takes precedence?

Objectively, as it were.

All consent violations are objectively bad iambiguous.

The reality itself needs a different construction to account for this; such as hyperdimensional mirror realities.

Okay, the godawful objectivist Kid it is then. :laughing:

You’re a scared little kid, who’s too afraid to admit that reality is currently, objectively, by definition, evil.

Let’s take this to Rant, okay? You start the thread. :wink:

It scares you to have it objectively solved …

Yet you call me the kid. The rant part was started by you, again a manifestation of your fear.

We’re done here. You know, this being the philosophy board. I’m more partial myself to dealing with retorts of this sort in rant. There it just makes more sense not to take them seriously. :wink:

“You’re a scared little kid”

Don’t you dare talk to biggy like that. Private Biggs was packing it on the mekong delta knee deep in the shit before you were even born, sonny.

Yeah… well he’s taken to trolling his own thread so that he can’t be disproven in a public forum on ILP

private biggs doesn’t ‘troll’… he ‘patrols’.

I submitted proof through contradiction by self evident definition.

Iambiguous is trolling. He’s also scared.

You did not. You failed to establish your quantifier transformation which resulted in biconditional disjunction and irreflexivity. Therefore there was no proof of the sequent.

I told you about this, man, and you’re still doing it.

Is that what someone should say to you when they hit your foot with a hammer??

Read the post above as well…

Iambiguous could have been polite enough to post this, wow, he really is scared:

viewtopic.php?f=6&p=2735447#p2735447