Is 1 = 0.999... ? Really?

The first expression is true if what it represents is “A number greater than every integer + 1 = a number greater than every integer”. Strictly speaking, however, this is not a mathematical expression since “A number greater than every integer” is not a specific number, but rather, a class of numbers (i.e. the number of numbers greater than every integer is greater than (1).)

But what if by (\infty) we refer to some specific infinite quantity such as “The smallest number greater than every integer”? (Note that there is only (1) such number.) In such a case, the first expression is not true because “The smallest number greater than every integer + 1 > The smallest number greater than every integer”.

And what about the second expression?

The second expression is true only if (\infty) refers to a specific number. Otherwise, it is not true. “A number greater than every integer - a number greater than every integer” is not necessarily equal to (0) in the same way that “A number greater than (3) - a number greater than (3)” is not necessarily equal to (0) (e.g. (5 - 4 = 1 \neq 0).)

Infinity cannot be defined as the smallest number greater than any integer because it is not a number as such
And adding one onto the largest integer makes that number the largest integer and it carries on ad infinitum

Where two infinities are identical the answer is 0 when they are subtracted
And so for example the infinite set of primes - the infinite set of primes = 0

Actually (\infty) - (\infty) = (\infty)

All the results can be derived from the starting equation (\infty) + I = (\infty)


when (\infty) = (\infty) then (\infty) - (\infty) = 0
when (\infty) < (\infty) then (\infty) - (\infty) = < 0
when (\infty) > (\infty) then (\infty) - (\infty) = > 0

If you accept that (\infty)+1= (\infty) then none of those three equations makes sense. That’s because they all depend on some sort of definite value/quantity for “each” infinity.

The size of an infinity is relative to how many members it has
For example the infinite set of integers is smaller than the infinite set of irrationals
So even though they are both infinite one is demonstrably larger than the other one

Those equations deal with infinity as a numeric concept. They are not about sets or the number of elements in a set.

What do you get if you add 1 to infinity? Is the result infinity or is it something else?

Your initial equations started with $$ \infty + 1 = \infty $$

If you accept that as true then the other results follow directly. If you subsequently deny those results, then you are not being consistent.

Had some irl stuff take priority over this joke of a thread. A lot of persisting nonsense to catch up on, unfortunately.
Interesting to note that phyllo, already established as a competent mathematician here, has re-joined to argue the same points as me. It’s almost as if it’s only mathematicians who understand the maths behind this topic.

Compare and contrast this response to the following 2 we’ve seen literally just before your accusation:

A simply explained correction of her math, and yet(!) - honesty offered and repsonsibility taken.

An insignificant typo that I pointed out, and yet - gratitude.

Magnus, the reason your notation made me laugh is because you’re pretending to be something you’re not and your misuse of terms unfamiliar to you gives it away as obviously (to adults) as a child pretending to be an adult. It’s funny because it’s adorable in the same way - though I don’t mean to discourage you from trying to learn. Making mistakes and making a fool of yourself will help you learn faster. This doesn’t make me “deeply insecure” :laughing: It’s your flaw and you owned it many posts ago before I was applying pressure on you to stop acting like you’re a mathematician when you already know you’re not. Ever since I did this, your insecurities have been triggered strongly enough to provoke responses such as this - of psychological projection onto others, who you understand deep down to be most threatening to your perception of yourself as capable, which I’ve already said you probably are in other areas than mathematics. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses - including me. I have no issue telling you and everyone else all about my weaknesses - I’ve admitted several times that there are far better mathematicians out there than me, you’re just not one of them and you know it. In contrast to you, one of my strengths is to stay relatively silent on issues where I’m no expert, and not pretend they’re my strengths.

Through this display you further evidence your deficit of mathematical thinking by failing to think Bayesian - as in “Bayes’ theorem”.
In Bayesian probability, one considers their observations in terms of their context in order to conclude more accurately.
Your projection of your insecurity onto me is based on two factors: not only that I’ve pointed out a relatively insignificant error of yours, but also the frequency with which I point out relatively insignificant errors for anyone. Bayesian thinking places the former within the context of the latter and although I’ve just now cited two very recent examples of me pointing out relatively insignificant errors on top of yours, this thread and forum as a whole is littered with small mistakes: spelling, grammar etc. which I do not point out. Far more often I do not call these into question. However in your case, your continued pretense of mathematical capability is hugely affecting this thread to its detriment and thus cannot be counted as insignificant, and even if it was, it is not frequent for me to point out such things given the far higher frequency with which I notice them. And either way, your willingness to take a specific instance and transform it into a general rule - and an ad hominem one too - betrays several fallacies and cognitive biases in the space of just one sentence.

So in response to your conclusion that my behaviour is not normal, I can confidently say that your condensed series of mistakes is unfortunately very normal.

Enough though.

0 raised to any finite number greater than 0 will be 0, because as I said, zero lots of anything, whether zero multiplied by itself several more times or not, is zero.
I specify “greater than 0”, because 0 to powers less than 0 results in division by 0, which is undefined, just the same as 0 to the power of 0.
So the truth of 0 raised to any finite number being equal to 0 is already in dispute.
As for 0 raised to an infinite number, already the above shows that “0 raised to an undefined quantity being equal to 0” is not as simplistic as your understanding might suggest.

Take, for example, your other mention of 1 to the power of an infinite number. This doesn’t even have the same problem that 0 has: of the power being 0 or less than 0 for finite numbers. And yet:
(\lim_{x\to0}({\frac{sin(x)}x})^{x^{-4}}=0)

The base, (\frac{sin(x)}x), tends towards 1 as x approaches 0.
The index, (x^{-4}), tends towards infinity as x approaches 0.
The whole expression of this “1 to the power of infinity”, as x approaches 0… approaches 0.

A mathematician will be aware of examples where infinities seem to cause unintuitive answers as a result of infinity being undefined.

Your intuitions about infinities are that they have to follow the patterns that finites look like they’re tending towards.
This is why it’s so significant and laughable that you’re not a mathematician and yet you’re pretending to be one.

It’s only of help to define what you’re looking for such that it’s actually possible to find it and verify it.

It’s of no help to suggest that something “ought” to exist because your adolescent mathematical intuitions seem like they might point that way - and to criticise the idea of trying to define such a thing to replace this “ought” with an “is”.

It’s not a coincidence that trying to define a quantity between (0) and (\prod_{x=1}^\infty\frac1{10_x}) is undefinable. No matter how much “special pleading” you apply to your naivety on the topic, “looking for a number that does not exist” is all that is possible to do here.

Thank you for explaining to me what I’ve already explained to you.
Again.

Actually, if you’d read my post, you’d realise it’s one of our points of agreement - at least for finite natural numbers:

In short, of course for all finite natural numbers, 10 to their negative power is greater than (0).
And of course for the infinite product, the undefined element leads to an undefined answer that tends towards a defined limit, which just so happens to back up the lack of possibility to define a quantity between zero and the difference between (1) and (0.\dot9), resulting in there being no defined distinction between the two representations.

There’s nothing approximate about the impossibility for any defined quantity to between (1) and (0.\dot9).

(\frac{1}{0}) can be substituted with “undefined”. (\infty) suggests the direction it’s headed to an undefined degree. It’s practical for mathematicians who understand these implications to swap these things out for display purposes, because they all know what is meant by it, which isn’t that (\infty) is a defined quantity that can be definitely operated upon by dividing 1 by it.
As such, as I keep having to clarify for you, I’m not saying that they’re equal, given any reason - “numbers you can multiply by (0) and get (0)” or not.

(0.\dot01) is a contradiction in terms because it pretends that you can bound the boundless. It’s not a contradiction in terms because there’s no quantity greater than (0) and the infinite product of tenths - that’s just a symptom of it being a contradiction in terms. It’s just another piece of evidence, alongside the limit of the infinite product of tenths being 0, even though infinite series never terminate to a defined answer. Combine the evidence of the limit with there being no definable quantity between 0 and the infinite product of tenths, and with the various proofs that you’re trying to dismiss as merely “Wikipedia proofs”, and the contradiction in terms is simply verified from all sides and validly falsified from none. Thus there’s no difference between (1) and (0.\dot9). Done. Easy. Simple.

You keep telling me your straw men are my point of view.
I keep telling you to stop this.
You never listen.
If you have a question about my point of view, ask it. Don’t tell me the answer.

Another red herring:
“infinite” (\to) “an example involving properties” (\to) “infinite doesn’t mean not conforming with afore-mentioned properties in some expected way”.
Certainly indeed, irrelevant conclusion indeed.

Physical constraints aside - I know you’re not a fan of them - even a conceptual infinite line of apples being added or removed from the universe brings with it problems of “the undefined” by virtue of the line being infinite. It is necessarily going to be undefined whether or not even a conceptual infinite “anything” has been/can be constructed/destroyed: it’s a contradiction to suggest the termination of an infinite process, whether adding or removing an infinite “anything”.

The rest of this post has already been dealt with: you’re using your intuitions about finites. Still. Continue your mathematical learning, then get back to me once you’ve understood and accepted the undefined nature of infinity.
I’m saying that (0.\dot01) is a contradiction and doesn’t exist. This is not saying it’s equal to anything.
There’s no definable difference between what’s “intended” by this contradiction, and 0. The gap you insist “ought” to exist from the suggestions of finites, cannot. Done. Easy. Simple.

I can’t believe that I’m having to explain that f(x) = 4x is not f(x) = 2x. The former won’t have elements 4x-2 even though the latter will, so suggesting surjection on those grounds is just another red herring.

Yes, infinity has nothing to do with size - I’m going to pretend you’re finally on board and have convinced yourself that you came to this conclusion all by yourself as though it countered the same point I’ve been making this whole time.

“Anything infinite is not bounded within a defined measurable set” indeed.
Doesn’t that contradict what you said immediately before about “infinity becomes self-defining”?
How can infinity be accepted as not boundable by a defined set, and yet also be self-defining?

Not really what I said - definition needs “what you’ve got” as well as “what you ain’t got”. But I’m glad you liked it.
“Infinity” only has “what you ain’t got” so doesn’t qualify as being defined as what it is (only what it isn’t i.e. finite, which is fully definable).

I wouldn’t object to finitude and infinitude being binary opposites - though I have extensively covered combinations of the two and how they must be strictly separated in order to get at the exact sense in which different infinite series can “appear” to have different sizes: it’s the number of finite constraints around the infinity of a series that determine any difference in size, and not the infinity itself that has difference in size. This is why different “infinite series” all being collectively and homogenously referred to as “infinite series” is misleading, when they only differ by their finite constraints and they are a mix of these finite constraints with infinity - “infinite series” are not “only infinite”. There is an infinite element that is side by side with finite elements, and each are only one and not the other (no overlap or middle ground).

As I just explained to Magnus, “0.0…1” is a contradiction so can’t even exist, never mind be equal to anything.

The intended implication of the contradiction is indistinguishable from zero though - yes.
As you say, you never ever ever get to any terminating “1”. It never comes into existence, leaving you only with the “0.0… = 0”

Concerning this “0.999… + 0.111… = 1.1…0”:
in the same way that you never ever ever reach the “terminating” 1 in “0.0…1” leaving you with only “0.0…”,
you never ever ever reach the “terminating” 0 in “1.1…0” leaving you with only “1.1…”.
I’m sure you have no objection with (\frac{9}9+\frac{1}9=\frac{10}9), which is the fractional representation of the decimal sum you’re demonstrating.
Perhaps you’d like to quantify the difference between (\frac{9}9) and (0.\dot9), (\frac{1}9) and (0.\dot1) and (\frac{10}9) and (1.\dot1) individually?

I get that you’re trying to accumulate these suggestions of “terminating” digits in non-terminating decimals such that they seem to become significant, but the problem is in the inherent contradiction of trying to do so. There are no terminating digits to accrue into something significant.

As I was trying to explain to Magnus, there’s two ways to look at this:

1.) completed infinity (on this you are 100% correct)

2.) process towards infinity (on this I am 100% correct)

So… I posit this to you:

Does endlessness ever become complete?!?!

I think you’ll like that train of thought!

There is no concept of time in mathematics.

Ideas like process and completion don’t make any sense.

“T” (time) is a variable in all branches of mathematics.

I know you’re trying to sound profound —- thing is, without time we couldn’t possibly have or understand this discussion on ANY level!

That’s really careless. Dismissing the definition of “quantity”? Really? Well then, I guess we can put in whatever we want for n. How 'bout “cow”? Is “cow” > 0? If so, then I can prove that (\sum_{i=1}^{cow} \frac{9}{10^i} < 1). But I think even you can appreciate that there is a limit to what we can substitute for n.

I’m going to demonstrate how you’re confusing intuition for logic. Your argument is:

  1. (\sum_{i=1}^{n} \frac{9}{10^i} < 1) for every (n > 0)
  2. (\infty) > 0
  3. Therefore (\sum_{i=1}^{\infty} \frac{9}{10^i} < 1)

^ Seems logical, right? But you’re missing a crucial step between 2) and 3): (\infty) is a valid value for n. I know you feel intuitively that (\infty) must be a valid value for n because (\infty) is a quantity, so no need to prove it. But when you’re arguing with someone who disagrees with you on that, you do need to prove it. You can’t just run on intuition. If I argued that “cow” > 0, and therefore the formula applies to cows as well, you would insist I prove that “cow” is a valid value for n, wouldn’t you? Same onus falls on you to prove that (\infty) is a valid value for n. But so far, all I’ve seen from you is re-assertion after re-assertion that (\infty) is a number–no proof–which tells me you believe it on intuition, not logic. You need to prove this just as much as you need to prove that what applies to finite sets also applies to infinite sets (and I wonder if this is just a special case of the same thing). But seeing as how you refuse to prove your point when I ask you too, I’m guessing you’ll cower away from this one too.

Well, it applies to any real number greater than 0. But what that means is: grab any number on the number line. (\infty) is not on the number line. It’s a direction in which the number line extends.

That’s a mathematical representation of time when modeling some physical situation. There is no time within mathematics itself. Nothing within mathematics requires time to complete.

I can have a variable “U”(unicorns) but it does not mean that unicorns are a part of mathematics.

Humans exist within time and therefore need time to understand things.

The explanation I gave earlier in the thread for any “concept of time in mathematics” was that there’s a difference between quantity and representation of quantity. The former is “already there” (for infinite quantities, it’s undefined where exactly “already there” is), but representations of quantities as well as representations of how to construct/deconstruct quantities have ordered steps that occur before or after other ordered steps - according to that order and therefore implying temporality.

When I say endlessness in reference to quantities, I’m referring to the quantitative boundaries (ends) that specfically define a quantity as distinct from higher or lower quantities. Not having this, as with an undefined/indefinite/infinite, means it has no ends. Mathematical construction of such endlessness would take an endless amount of time to complete, just as its deconstruction to a definite quantity would never happen. The best you can do is imply endlessness by using a symbol/notation that only looks like it’s “bounding” boundlessness, which has to be treated very carefully and separately from defined, bounded finites, which have specific ends. Otherwise you can be fooled into thinking there’s more than one kind infinity, and/or that each one can have a different size, when in fact it’s the finite constraints around infinity only that affect anything to do with size: there’s only one way in which endlessness can be endless.

Nothing in mathematics requires time to complete ?!?!?!?!?!

Really!?!?!?!? Please explain!

What is there to explain?

If you are presented with the fraction 1/3 , then it takes some time for you to do the division. It might take you 10 minutes, it might take you 5 seconds to realize that 1/3=0.333… (Or you might never realize it.)

It takes you time because time applies to you. Mathematics is not a “being” who has to “do” something. It doesn’t “need” to “get to the end”. It doesn’t need a process to “do” the calculation. Mathematically 1/3=0.333… - that’s it.

Time is just not applicable to some stuff.

Phyllo,

Even if 1/3 is equal to 0.333… that means that 0.333… *3 is equal to 0.999…, which looks ALOT different than 1!

If you say they are equal, you’re making the claim that EVERY counting number is equal to an infinity of infinities (contradiction)

If you say they’re not equal, then you are drawing a line which states “counting numbers are finite” (which is correct)

1/3=0.333…
3*(1/3)=1
3*(0.333…)=0.999…
Therefore 1=0.999…

If that’s not true, then simple division and multiplication don’t work.

You can even take out the multiplication: 1/3+1/3+1/3= 0.333… + 0.333… + 0.333… = 0.999… = 1

It’s not rocket science.

Phyllo, you don’t understand what I’m saying when I say the implication is that all finite numbers are infinite (in fact you avoided it)

Let’s say we hypothetically live in a world where fractions don’t exist… it would be unfathomable that 0.999… = 1.

In a decimal world. 0.111… * 9 equaling 1 is impossible.

The problem is not with my logic, the problem is how operators work with 1 minus base, to make them ‘appear’ equal… but then again, they don’t appear equal at all do they !!!