How to become Ubermensch?

Ubermensch could be apolitical, and asocial, but insofar as they were political, they’d favor some form of aristocracy or autocracy, and insofar as they were social, they’d surround themselves with other great men and women like themselves.

Society and government would primarily serve the interests of great people, the smartest, strongest, healthiest, wealthiest, most beautiful and ethical people.
Here I say ethical rather than moral, because for N, insofar as the strongman values others, or themselves for that matter, they do so according to their nature, their perceptions and sentiments.
It’s not something they try to artificially impose upon themselves externally, for fear of transgressing some deity or ‘objective moral’.
Of course the wealthiest aren’t always the smartest and so on, but they tend to be.
The amount of sociopolitical power and privilege a person is afforded would be determined by a multitude of factors, rather than a single factor like wealth or ancestry/birth, and by a multitude of powerful and privileged people, rather than a single person.

But yea, it’s an aristocratic philosophy, not anarchy, or 1 man = 1 vote.
Of course in the real world, 1 man doesn’t = 1 vote anyway, but it’s convenient for our elite we go on believing that 1 man = 1 vote anyway.

i’d probably have to argue that fritz got the concept wrong and was a little over-romantic about it, though. lotta circumstantial bias and prejudice there dictating how he was going to conceive it. consider the indecisive political state of europe during the 19th century. lotta religious and political turbulence there, so naturally this ‘ideal man’ would be something that was able to rise above and transcend all of that particular mess. the ubermensch then becomes something circumstantial, not eternal.

now if you want an eternally applicable image of the ubermensch, you’d look to max stirner’s individual-egoist. this ‘ideal’ is universally solid under any circumstances. the cool thing about max’s ideal is that it allows for altruistic ends, provided that these end are not sought involuntarily… that is, under the false impression that they should be sought as causes in themselves rather than simply as something that pleases the egoist. this way a selfish sonofabitch can be moral and still avoid all the ideological spooks. the thing with fritz wuz that he was just another ideologue, albeit a radically new kind. but a spook is a spook man. duddint matter how you dress it up.

and there’s the connection i made earlier between the anarchist and the ubermensch. when the amoralist’s egoistic action results in something revolutionarily moral, a paradox emerges within the original formula for the overman and you get an exception to the rule. previously it was decided that the overman would make a concerted effort to remain amoral… or of the ‘master’ morality, which when contrasted to the normative ethics amounts to the same thing in practice. he must, in principle, keep his distance and do nothing for the well being of the masses unless it’s accidental. that is to say, he has to keep in mind that distinction he’s made between his morality and the herd’s morality and be careful not to ‘step in it’. but in making this conscientious effort he becomes an ‘objectivist’ and is therefore no different in form than the herd. he becomes the amoral moralist and an oxymoron. next thing you know the criteria for upholding the standards he has for himself becomes a matter of determining whether or not what he does benefits the herd he distinguishes himself from. now he’s created a ‘cause’ he sacrifices himself for and as such becomes the involuntary egoist; he loses himself momentarily so that he may produce for himself something to ‘stand by’ to recapture his identity… and he does this to avoid the ‘nothing’ that he ultimately is. on the other hand, the stirnerite egoist does not acknowledge any spook such as ‘master/slave morality’ in the first place, and so doesn’t have a predisposed standard he holds himself answerable to. rather he does what please him only, and if this incidentally favors the herd, it is of no consequence to him. the stirnerite violates no forumla and is no objectivist like those philosophers who use such things as ‘social darwinism’ to not only justify their elitism but declare it necessary.

that’s some MAXimum psychoanalysis for ya. the shit cuts deep, bro. what if all overmen prior to this post were just scared leetle girls?

Reminder, Untermensch is not a Nietzsche concept. Nazis came up with that.

Mensch, for Nietzsche, was low enough.

N said remarkably little about America but it is safe to say that the idea of “self-evident rights” for humans amongst each other is something he would have laughed very hard at. As do I.

Its funny how you can lay waste to an entirely noble population of warriors and enslave people and then claim “self-evident rights” - complete hypocrisy.

Stirner and Nietzsche, S&N were similar, in that they both weren’t afraid of moral gods, ghosts or ectoplasm, yet they didn’t do away with sociability, creativity for its own sake, or altruism altogether, only the contrived kind, instead they placed sociability, creativity and altruism in the realm of the subjective, of perception and sentiment, like David Hume did.

Where they differed is in what sort of perceptions and sentiments they had.
S’s were more egalitarian, he believed many, most or all at some point in the future could liberate themselves from belief in gods and objective morality, whereas N’s were more elitist, he believed only the elite could.
S didn’t divide the world into two camps, the uber and the unter, N did.
Both S and N spoke of unions of egoists in their own way, but S was open to all sorts of nonbinding unions, whereas Nietzsche was only interested in the uber uniting to further their interests, and rule the unter.

So two people can do away with moral monsters, boogeymen, but still think and feel very differently about the world and the people who inhabit it.
It’d be interesting to compile all the great ethical subjectivists, from about Hume onward, to see how their ethical subjectivism manifested differently.

Did he not rather say the higher man would employ the “educated masses” (cosmopolitans middle class) to shape the base of a pyramid?
This distance is not a hermit-like distance, even though still a hygiene, but definitely not a complete separation.

That is to say, the normal humans would remain unaware of the existence of the Uebermensch.

Dudes can we please spell it right it is jarring.

Ue is U-umlaut.

I think youre not taking this from N directly.
What he always asks about a taste, which separates types of people. Not morals.

Morals are simply bad taste.

I don’t see N in this.
Pls quote.

N was no fan of Darwin though, he writes contemptuously of him.

Not afraid, but N completely rejected morality and moral gods.

Nietzsche was against all morality, he never advocated Master Morality. He just said it existed.

All morality is anti-Nietzschean.

No more important point in N than that men, up to and at least 100 years beyond him, had not been great enough.
Not even Napoleon had his respect, because of the cause he led.

The concept of Uebermensch, I don’t know what’s so difficult to understand about this. (lol yeah of course I do but it’s mean) is the conceptualization of mankind as being by definition insufficient to please his tastes.

All this about already existing Uebermenschen is from other sources than Nietzsche.

Am I the only one who understands the concept of sourcing, quoting, referring - am I the only one who is not content to just blindly imagine things?

Perhaps Im the only one who has read Nietzsche to any serious extent.

How elitist of me.

But really. Only the elite of this planet can endure reading Nietzsche. That’s the whole point. His writing is a selecting mechanism.

He exudes this whole taste for rank so very utterly that one must have quite a strong stomach.

In this sense, America as being a mechanism for rank-creating, did, I think, have his respect.

Naturally he wasn’t so silly as to believe men have intrinsic rights, he wasn’t as silly as to disregard reality of how men interact, nor did he value men in particular as more ontologically significant than animals, so he did not value the base narrative of the USA, but he must have valued the massiveness of its power machinations.

And since he considered overcoming and self-overcoming as a crucial aspect of noble nature, he would definitely have had some pleasure in the path to power of the African gene pool. He certainly wasn’t racist.

What he loathed about the US type base narrative is the whining demands that all men are given rights without any of their own efforts.
Still, since he valued the Noble Lie, he would have respected the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as - noble lies. Meaning statements which serve a deeper purpose than to convey some moral truth.

The difference between truth and reality.

I know a little about Nietzsche but I seriously need to read up on him to gain a greater understanding of him
I understand how he thought one can become better through suffering because it is suffering that defines us
I would not be put off by him at all because my sense of detachment does not allow for emotional judgements
I am currently reading The Gulag Archipelago which in terms of enduring extreme suffering is as Nietzschean as it is possible to be
The Nazis took his idea of Superman and completed distorted it because it was about self improvement not creating the master race

You certainly don’t sound as misguided as most.

I have a biography of his which I never finished because the writing was so dry and academic but I will give it another go
I have Zarathustra but need to get Will To Power and maybe Ecce Homo and perhaps a really good biography of him too

Am going through a serious book binge at the moment and one name on that list is Nietzsche
Also Marx / Popper / Locke / Hume / Kant / Crowley / Aurelius / Socrates / Aristotle / Rand

So much to read and so little time to read it but one does what one can
Knowledge is to the mind what exercise is to the body so read on I say

Solid programme - N comes into his own among his peers.
Here’s a piece of very early writing.

oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201 … _Sense.htm

Given your focus now on Russia, and suffering; of Dostoyevsky, N said that he was the only one of whom he could still learn some psychology.

:-"