Should we expect two astrologers doing a reading on the same person to produce the same result?
In many fields, this probably isn’t true anymore. For example, AlphaZero doesn’t use human input at any point during its training, and is much, much stronger than any human. It is unlikely that pairing it with a human would improve its performance. Even where humans can sometimes bring intuition, more often they introduce unforced errors.
So, if we say that the CPI is flawed, and that’s what led to the null result in test 1, then we must say that astrology is also flawed, because the results were the same. The authors propose that self-recognition is to blame, and so they don’t hold this against astrology. But if you choose instead to hold it against CPI, you must also hold it against astrology. If we reject them both, then we can discount the second test, but then we don’t need the second test because we have our answer.
But the CPI has been used and tested a lot, its validity and reliability are well attested. There have been criticisms of it, but there are criticisms of all personality tests, and CPI is about as good as any we could use in your experimental design. Vindication for astrology would look like having the same validity and reliability as the CPI.
No, though there would be a lot of overlap if they know their stuff. Nor would two AIs produce the same result. And this, in part, is why I would want groups of astrologers, when testing them. To get that overlapping core. I could even see eliminating ‘clients’ when there isn’t consensus.
I don’t think you read me correctly. COMBINED computer and human teams beat computers working alone. At least according to a recent book I read. The humans provide strategy and focus for ‘crunching’ the computers do that tactical crunching. I believe this is also true for Go.
Ah, good point. But the second test is tainted if the CPI is not good. The astrologers were comparing its results with cpi descriptions. I’d be interested in how they chose the astrologers, were they in groups or alone, had they worked with written descrptions or just dialogue with clients, were they well respected by their peers and clients. I’d be interested in exactly what the ‘clients’ were told and what they were given to choose from/between. AGain, I am a bit proud that what I thought was a good protocol matches many facets of what both scientists and astrologers came up with. Both parts. However I don’t have enough to go on yet to know their whole process. It’s also one study.
And, with astrology, all one need do is to believe in it. Or, sure, not believe in it but able to convince others to believe in it. It’s like God. The truth about Him need not be relevant if any particular human behaviors are predicated on the belief that He does or does not exist. The consequences are still the same.
It all comes down to a particular war in a particular set of circumstances and who has the greater knowledge of what those circumstances actually are. If the stars and/or God can be used to achieve your objective, then, here, you are willing to be either more or less cynical about it.
Of course defending the means is one thing, defending the ends another thing altogether. Them is where the components of my own argument come into play.
With the prisoner’s dilemma, it depends on who the prisoners are in relationship to the other prisoners. The calculations here are often anything but “analytical”.
And “randomness” with astrology seems particularly problematic. Are the stars and the moons and the planets “in place” because there is some teleological component in the universe that brings all of this about? Or, instead, is it all just embedded in some mysterious “force”…a reality “out there” that makes it so for entirely – largely? – unfathomable reasons?
And then that existential gap between the heavens propelling you to choose as opposed to compelling you to choose. That mysterious instance when “I” makes or breaks a particular outcome.
And, again, the beauty of it all is that, for any particular individual, it doesn’t matter what he or she can or must know about any of this, but what he or she simply believes they know about it.
And, me, I’m willing to keep an open mind. If they are able to demonstrate that what they believe about it is true, it’s got to be a hell of a lot more “comforting and consoling” then what I have come to believe I think I know about what’s left of my own essentially meaningless existence.
In Defense of Astrology
by HILARY CARITO in the Lesley College Public Post
In other words, it goes “deeper” than those who are only out to make a buck on it in the popular media. But, however deep one goes, there is still the part where, through experiments, predictions and replicated results, one is able to demonstrate that there really is “something to it.”
After all, there are those who argue that, in ways other than those defended by astrologers, we are all “at one” with the universe in some manner. Either literally in a universe wholly determined or in some “spiritual” sense – a connection that can only be experienced on the path to enlightenment.
Still, my interest is always focused on the manner in which this can all be explained given the behaviors we choose in our interactions with others from day to day. Whether the font is astrology, religion, nature, philosophy, science, political ideology or something else, how is one able to describe in some detail the manner in which their own beliefs impact the things that they do choose to think, feel, say and do. Why this and not that?
And how do their set of assumptions stack up against my own?
Surrep is right that I get irritated. I get irritated by flat-earthers too. Its so simple to find out the truth, and so much effort is spent on avoiding it. Please, just, let it lie or study it. But… the Shadow. You cant do astrology and run away from yourself at the same time.
One time I showed Sauwelios his progressions. He concluded that it was all far too accurate for comfort and that he didn’t like for life to be written out, and then decided, consciously, to disregard it because he preferred ignorance. He’s honest like that.
I used to be in the habit of reading peoples charts for free, out of interest and philanthropy and what not but its dangerous stuff - especially partial self-knowledge, when the knowledge is profound, can fuck up a psyche very deeply.
Its not that hard to develop a falsification system and prove the validity. Ive proven it in many ways one of which I have performed here, by having people give different dates and me “guessing” the one that is their birth date. It’s science.
Ive realized the reason people don’t investigate it is pain; astrology is the way of attaining the profoundest self-knowledge, and most people would rather die than know themselves in any profound way.
Odin agrees with them; “it is best to be moderately wise.” Of course he doesn’t usually follow the advice he gives to men.
Yes, this reminds me that it is often stated, even by professionals in the relevant fields, that people fear public speaking more than death. I am not sure how they manage to measure this and I am skeptical. But I believe the fear of public speaking is incredibly high precisely because through the eyes and ears of others we fear getting a very strong, uncontrolled glimpse of what we are. Politicians and stand up comics and actors have spend so much time controlling what they show, they are not risking showing their true selves when getting up in front of the crowd. Though all three will go through, in most cases, a hellish transition period.
Of course you cannot turn weaknesses into strengths if you don’t want to notice the weaknesses at all.
We manage impressions and manipulate other people, as much as we can - by hiding things that are facets of us and claiming things that are not true about ourselves - much more as a rule that most of us want to admit or notice at all. If they think I am X, then it is easier for me to think I am X. And this is especially true in relation to not being X. Trying to get other people to think ‘I am not X’ is the root of so much social behavior.
What’s tucked away in the 12th house?
What is Saturn sitting on?
When Pluto transits a natal planet or the ASC or MC, do you want to deny your own Plutonic facets? Well, good luck cause then they come home to roost from the outside.
Anyone whose responses (and responses to criticism) could all be looked as ‘I’m just…’ likely has a huge un-integrated shadow.
Astrology is a bit like LSD I a sense, it will fuck you up in some way. Truth, beheld like that, is just able to fry your ego.
This is why it is used as a weapon. More perhaps than as a healing tool.
A brainwash programme of the Pentagon will first of all go into the natal chart.
I suppose it is a kind of death but one you have to live with.
Many high representative politicians have gone through an extensive mind-moulding neurolinguistic programming trajectory before they attained that MC Hammer attitude.
And there are so many of them, in almost everybody.
So much so that each strength is also a thousand weaknesses.
Yes - and still - even when we engage these things knowingly its not going to be easy or even successful necessarily.
Sometimes I do think it is more useful to not know ones own chart.
But then, it is the truth, and it’s just too fascinating.
2] Does the placement and the movement of stars and planets and other celestial bodies impact on our personality at birth? Are they pertinent in making decisions regarding some of the most important events in our life?
Let’s ask the scientists.
Now, in regard to the flat-Earthers, has the truth of their claim been established by science beyond all doubt?
But what of the claims of the astrologers? What have the scientists been able to come up with here in order to demonstrate the veracity of their claims.
And, if some have, link me to them.
As for doing astrology, what does that entail in regard to the decisions that you make over the course of living your life? Cite some examples of what knowledge you have been able to glean from these celestial bodies. And why and how you are convinced that there is no other possible explanation for what did in fact unfold.
Again, I’m not dismissing astrology as necessarily false. After all, an explanation for the very existence of existence itself conjures up all sorts of really, really mysterious possibilities. God being the most common. But mere mortals have also attributed “reality” to such surreal things like solipsism, sim worlds, dream world and worlds inhabited by “oracles”.
that’s a good open-minded point, biggs. it’s along the lines of: if we can’t explain how everything works, we might be wrong about how something in particular works. so for all we know, there might be something to the astrology. ah but here’s the thing. part of that system of how everything works must involve a particular circumstance that makes us unable to know how everything works (cue things like falsifiability, fallacious inductive reasoning, etc.). in that case, we might be right about astrology, but wouldn’t know how, in which case we’d have made a lucky guess. the problem with lucky guesses is minimal in the case of astrology - i mean it’s not the kind of thing where we’d suffer tremendous dangers if we got it wrong… it’s not like sending a shuttle into space. but it does allow charlatans to pretend they know what’s going on with it, and that’s offensive to an honest intellectual. we honest intellectuals don’t like to guess, see, so we don’t bother with shit we can’t be sure of. and we sure as shit don’t say ‘see, i told ya so’ when the stock market crash happens to coincide with the position of mercury.
other than that, i will tell you that astrology is probably true because i happen to have a very powerful chart. if i had a bunch of lame signs and placements instead, i’d tell you it was false. i’m sure you understand.
Most people dont associate astrology with self knowledge because they dont regard it as a serious discipline
But most people also dont want to look into the abyss because they are afraid of what they might see there
They think that psychology or philosophy or religion are ways of understanding the abyss rather than astrology
And so those are the areas they would avoid if they had an irrational fear of self knowledge and not astrology
In Defense of Astrology
by HILARY CARITO in the Lesley College Public Post
Or is the surface all there is?
So, again, we are back to pinning down where to draw line between the information that is fundamentally attributable to these “celestial bodies”, and what “I” am able to do with this information that is not fundamentally attributable to them. Which is why I would need someone who believes in astrology to take me through their day and explain where they themselves draw the line in regard to the particular behaviors they choose. Especially given a context in which those who do not share their own sign choose something entirely different. Finally, in a context in which those behaviors comes into conflict over value judgments.
So, the fact that you have this illness – how much is that is attributable to the position and movement of celestial bodies? How would someone who believed in astrology situate the current COVID-19/coronavirus outbreaks in their frame of mind.
Bingo!
It’s somewhat analogous to those who argue that God made them who and what their are so who are mere mortals to tell them to be otherwise. Or, as with the existence of commandments in most religious scriptures, is there something about the position and movement of heavenly bodies that allows – requires? – believers to choose behaviors that are more acceptable? More likely to play to their own advantage in whatever astrologers conceive the afterlife to be?
World Transits 2000–2020 An Overview by Richard Theodore Tarnas (born February 21, 1950) a cultural historian known for his books The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas That Have Shaped Our World View and Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View. In 1968 Tarnas entered Harvard, graduating with an A.B. cum laude in 1972. Tarnas is professor of philosophy and psychology at the California Institute of Integral Studies, and is the founding director of its graduate program in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness.
“So, the fact that you have this illness – how much is that is attributable to the position and movement of celestial bodies? How would someone who believed in astrology situate the current COVID-19/coronavirus outbreaks in their frame of mind.”
The virus broke out exactly as the apocalyptic conjunction of Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-Pluto the astrologers have been anticipating for years occurred.
As far as personal afflictions with it, of course thats in the personal transits.
What does not “believing” in astrology mean? As that pertains to a particular context that most of us here will be familiar with.
Also, take the “decades of research” there in turn. Scientific research.
In other words, a set of circumstances involving human interaction. There we can focus in turn on the distinction that I make between astrology in the either/or world and astrology in the is/ought world.
Astrology as it relates to the laws of nature, the “in fact” empirical world around us, the logical rules of language, mathematics etc., and astrology as it relates to the components of my own moral philosophy: dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.
Again, I’m less interested in what people think or believe or claim to know about astrology and more in regard to what they are actually able to demonstrate – scientifically, philosophically – that all rational men and women are obligated to believe about it. Linking us, for example, to actual experiences and experiments they themselves have had, have tried or are familiar with.
Also, just out of curiosity, how do you imagine astrology fitting into your own life, given that which is of most importance to me philosophically — morality here and now, immortality there and then.
And go into some detail regarding the behaviors that you chose in a particular context of late. The existential relationship between “I” and the celestial bodies.
“It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe.” NASA
Where does astrology fit into all of this? Given that 95% of the universe is not even “normal matter”?
