## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

Molly's game is poker. And her game attracted any number of celebrities, high rollers and corporate executives. And then, over time, this attracted the Russian mob.

And we know all this because Molly's game is based on a true story. Molly Bloom's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Bloom_(author)

A rather extraordinary life to say the least.

Anyway, Molly's game was eventually busted by the FBI. Why? Because, along with the Russian mob, gambling itself is construed by different people in different ways. And while in some parts of the world it is all perfectly legal, in other parts it's not. Even within any particular country there conflicting jurisdictions.

And the laws here are often all over the board. What exactly can you do and what exactly can't you do? Even the lawyers themselves can be flummoxed at times.

Anyway, gambling it seems is a pursuit that some take to in a big, big way. It can take over their life. It can steer it in any number of ominous directions. It can even destroy it. Whereas, for folks like me, I don't get it. I've never been attracted to it all. And I really don't understand the mentality of those who are. And I'm not alone:

Jessica Chastain knows very little about gambling and has no interest in it. IMDb

And then the part where gambling gets intertwined in a post modern technology the authorities now have access to. Who really knows what information can be garnered from what device.

A lot of narrating here. And while some will find it annoying, I rather enjoyed it. Not much you won't learn about the world of high-stakes poker. And, as with other worlds of this sort, there are a lot of things that most of us don't really know at all. On the other hand, as a few reviewers point out, the movie is really just a "dumbed down" version of the book.

IMDb

Molly Bloom is banned from Canada because she pleaded guilty to a federal crime in the United States. She was granted a 48-hour pass to visit Canada for the movie's premiere at TIFF. Ironically, the film was shot in Canada.

According to Molly Bloom, the most money she'd ever seen lost in a card game session in one night was $100 million. The losing player settled the debt the following day. All of the extras in the card games are professional poker players. First-time director Aaron Sorkin wanted realism, right down to the way players handled cards during games. The amount of money that the FBI took from Molly, and the fine she paid, was substantially larger in the movie. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4209788/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://youtu.be/Vu4UPet8Nyc trailer: https://youtu.be/Vu4UPet8Nyc Molly's Game [2017] Written and directed by Aaron Sorkin Molly [voiceover]: A survey was taken a few years ago that asked 300 professionals one question: "What's the worst thing that can happen in sports?" Some people answered losing a Game 7. And other people said getting swept in four. Some people said it was missing the World Cup. But one person answered that the worst thing that can happen in sports was fourth place at the Olympics. This is a true story, but except for my own, I've changed all the names and I've done my best to obscure identities for reasons that'll become clear. ... Molly [voiceover]: I have a BA in Political Science from the University of Colorado where I graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 3.9 GPA. The median L-SAT score at Harvard Law School is 169. My score: 173. ... Molly [voiceover]: When I was 12 years old, for no particular reason, my back exploded. Less than ten minutes later, I was in the back of an ambulance. I had what's called rapid onset scoliosis. My spine was curved at 63 degrees and I'd need a 7-hour surgical procedure that involved straightening my spine, extracting bone from my hip, fusing 11 vertebrae together and fastening steel rods to the fused segments. ... Molly [voiceover]: My boots are basically welded to my skis. Right...so how does this happen? It happened because I hit a pine bough that had become frozen in the snow. And I hit it so precisely that it simply snapped the release of my bindings. Right in that moment, I didn't have time to calculate the odds of that happening because I was about to land pretty hard on my digitally remastered spinal cord which is being held together by spare parts from an Erector Set...None of this has anything to do with poker. I'm only mentioning it because I wanted to say to whoever answered that the worst thing that could happen in sports was fourth place at the Olympics...seriously, fuck you. ... Larry [Molly's father interviewing her as a child]: Who are the heroes or heroines in your life? Who uh, who do you really respect? Molly: I don't have any heroes. Larry: You don't have any heroes. Molly [voicover]: How's this for hubris? I don't. Because if I reach the goals I'd set out for myself, then the person I become, that'll be my hero. Even by teenage girl standards, I would appear to be irrationally angry at nothing in particular. It would be another 22 years before I'd find out why. ... Molly [voiceover]: Like I said, the day started by being about bagels. But that would abruptly change. Dean: My weekly poker game's moved to the Cobra Lounge. Tomorrow night and then every Tuesday night. You'll help run it. Take these names and numbers. Tell 'em to bring 10 grand in cash for the first buy-in, the blinds are 50-100. ... Molly [voiceover]: I'd regarded Dean as a nitwit when I regarded him at all. But on that pad were nine names along with phone numbers of some of the most wealthiest and most famous people in the world. ... Molly [voiceover]: I'd just finished counting out$90,000 in cash. I was in a room with movie stars, directors, rappers, boxers. They were going all-in all the time, burning through their buy-ins over and over. I Googled every word I heard that I didn't know. Flop, river, fourth street, tilt, cooler, boat, nuts...

...

Charlie [a lawyer]: I read your indictment after I got your call last night and I bought your book. I'm only on page 112, but Molly, did you commit a felony and then write a book about it?
Molly: I haven't run a game in two years. Not to spoil the ending, but that's when the government raided my game and took all of my money, assuming all of it was made illegally which it wasn't.

...

Charlie: Have you seen the other names in your indictment? Nicolas Koslovsky, Peter Druzhinsky, Peter Antonovich, the Gershen brothers, I mean, come on, Molly, just how deep into the Russian mob were you? Because your book doesn't say.

...

Molly: I've never hurt anyone in my life.
Molly: I've never heard of 90 percent of the names in the indictment.
Charlie: And the other 10 percent?
Molly: I didn't know they were connected. I had no idea who they really were.

...

Charlie [to Molly]: We regularly lend out our best litigators like me to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, veterans groups, but I don't think I can convince my partners to take a flyer on the Poker Princess.

...

Molly [voiceover]: The game had regulars and the game had guests. And four of the regulars were famous actors. And I'm gonna call one of them Player X. Player X subscribed to the belief that money won was twice as good as money earned. He lived to beat people and take their money.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Player X was the best player at the table and tonight this guy was the worst. He's staring at his cards. Even a reasonably good amateur would know it was mathematically the best hand which in poker is called the nuts. There was $47,000 in the pot and the guest was holding the nuts but he was starting to get confused because a movie star was talking to him. ... Molly [voiceover]: A fish is a particular kind of player. A fish has money. A fish plays loose and doesn't fold a lot. A fish is good but not too good. ... Molly [voiceover]: My job security was gonna depend on bringing Player X his fish. But where would I find people with a lot of money who didn't know how to spend it and liked to be around celebrities? ... Molly [voiceover]: Poker was my Trojan horse into the highest level of finance, technology, politics, entertainment, art. All I had to do was listen. ... Charlie: You extended credit. You're destitute and you leave two and a half million dollars on the street? Molly: I had to. Charlie: Didn't anyone try to buy your debt sheet? Molly: Everyone tried to buy my debt sheet, is this the right time...? Charlie: Why didn't you sell it like you sold your clothes? Molly: I couldn't. Charlie: Why? Molly: I couldn't be sure how they were gonna collect. Charlie: I was afraid you were gonna say that. ... Molly [voiceover]: There was a track star in the 1930's named Matthew Robinson. Matthew Robinson shattered the Olympic record in the 200 at the Berlin Games in 1936. Absolutely shattered the Olympic record...and came in second. The man who came in first was Jesse Owens. Jesse Owens went on to be a legend. Matthew Robinson went on to be a janitor at a whites-only middle school in Pasadena. The difference was four-tenths of a second. As if that wasn't enough, Matthew Robinson had a little brother who was also an athlete. His name was Jackie. ... Larry: What did everyone learn in school today? Molly [as a highschooler]: Uh, I learned that Sigmund Freud was both a misogynist and an idiot and anyone who relies on his theories of human psychology is a quack. Larry: I don't know why you'd say that. Molly: You asked me what I learned in school today. Larry: Is this Mrs. Linwood? Molly: Yep. Larry: Did she happen to mention anything about his work on the unconscious mind? Molly: His dream analysis has the credibility of a horoscope, but what got my attention was that he opposed the women's emancipation movement. He believed that a woman's life is about her reproductive function. Larry: So you're really getting to the nuts and bolts of why middle-class suburban white girls have been oppressed for centuries. Molly: Mrs. Linwood was just teaching us... Larry: Barbara Linwood doesn't like men, Molly. Molly: She doesn't like dicks, Dad, there's a difference. ... Dean: Is he cheating? Molly: No. Dean: How would you know? Molly: I'd know. Dean: He and Diego aren't in bed together? Molly: No. Dean: What about him and you? Molly: A 52 card deck produces hundreds of millions of random patterns but every time one of you loses two weeks in a row, you're sure something fishy's going on? ... Molly: You're gonna stop paying me to do that job because I'm making too much money doing my second job and if I say no I'll lose both jobs because "it doesn't seem fair"? Dean: Business is bad right now. Welcome to the real world. Molly: All right, here it is. Banks are loaning you money and they shouldn't. You're a bad risk, they know it. So the debt service on your loans is close to 20 percent which is crazy. 20 percent is barely survivable if it's a bridge loan but like, for instance, it's taken you ten years to build seven houses, all of which are worth less than they were before you built them because the housing market is on a downward trajectory for the first time in the history of houses and that's why business is doing bad, not because you're paying me$450 a week.

...

Player: Where's Dean?
Molly: I'll be hosting a game in this suite every Tuesday night. If you play tonight, you'll be guaranteed a chair for a year. If you prefer to play at the Cobra Lounge, there'll be no hard feelings.

...

Molly [voiceover]: The game was mine now.

...

Lawyer: Are you taking a rake?
Molly: No.
Lawyer: Then you're not breaking the law. Can I give you some advice?
Lawyer: There's a saying in my business. Don't break the law when you're breaking the law. Molly: What do you mean?
Lawyer: No drugs, no prostitutes, no muscle to collect debts.
Molly: Oh, I don't do anything like that. But you just said I wasn't breaking the law.
Lawyer: Keep it that way, because you don't want to break the law when you're breaking the law.
Molly: Am I breaking the law?
Lawyer: Not really.
Molly: We're able to find out for sure, aren't we? Laws are written down.
Lawyer: You're not taking a percentage of the pot?
Molly: No.
Lawyer: You're running a square game.

...

Player X: Are you fuckin' nuts? Donnie Silverman won the World Series of Poker.
Molly: You can watch it online. He took 11 hands at the final table. But he had the nuts on eight of them. And three of those...three were two-outers with four players still in the hand. He ran hot. He doesn't lock his chips down, he's reckless, he gives tons of action, and he's got 12 million dollars.
Player X: You know, I don't like playing poker.
Molly: Why do you play?
Player X: I like destroying lives. Give him a chair.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Bad Brad had raised 700 million dollars for a fund that traded oil futures. And every week, he came to the game. Lost $100,000 and tipped me$5,000 so he could play the next week. He wasn't getting any better. And the guys were feasting on him.
Brad: Can I get another fifty?
Molly: Can we talk for a second?
Molly: Brad, this game might not be for you.

...

Molly [voiceover]But first...Harlan Eustice. Player X said he met Harlan at the Commerce Casino and that he'd be good for the game but I wasn't seeing what he was seeing. He played tight, folding after the hole cards 64 percent of the time. It wasn't clear where his money came from. He produced backyard wrestling videos and other low-rent productions. But worst of all, Harlan Eustice was a good card player. Why would Player X want someone at the game who could beat him? I'd learn the answer to that one the hard way.

...

Charlie: This is the Russian mafia. And the three are tied together in the indictment through... A poker game.
Molly: Were they tapping my phones?
Charlie: No.
Molly: Thank God.
Charlie: They were tapping the phones of everyone you talked to. They've got you confirming that you ran rake games at the Plaza Hotel and various locations in New York. They've also got a confidential informant confirming that you ran raked games at the Plaza Hotel and various locations in New York. You were in violation of 1955, which is the part of the U.S. Code that makes it illegal to run an illegal gambling business. You know what you did? You finished writing a book before the good part happened.

...

Charlie: I need your hard drives.
Molly: Going back how far?
Charlie: What do you mean?
Molly: Well, I kept my hard drives when I'd buy a new laptop.
Charlie: You're kidding.
Molly: No, it had a record of who owed what and spreadsheets on the players.
Charlie: It has more than that. Every time you charge your phone by plugging it into the computer, the computer takes a record of all your text messages and e-mails.
Molly: My laptop has a record of all text messages and e-mails received years ago on phones that have been smashed with an aluminum bat?

...

Charlie: I want to run forensic imaging on your hard drives.
Molly: Oh, no, thanks anyway, but I'll be destroying those hard drives.
Charlie: Well, you can't do that, they're evidence.
Molly: Well, I'm gonna blow 'em up, I am literally gonna use explosives and scatter the remains in the sea.
Charlie: Except you told me they exist.
Molly: You're gonna have to pretend I didn't tell you.
Charlie: Can't do that.
Molly: Yes, you can.
Charlie: You were the one who wanted a lawyer that wasn't even a little bit shady.
Molly: New information has come to light, now I see that that was stupid. There are no hard drives.
Charlie: If you destroy evidence and obstruct justice on top of the charges already brought against you in this case, you will be, I promise, incarcerated.
Molly: You don't understand what's in those text messages.
Charlie: I understand you've had boyfriends and there'll be some exchanges that are a little bit, you know, embarrassing.
Molly: I don't care about embarrassing text messages from boyfriends as there's not left a small corner of my private life that isn't available for public scrutiny. There are messages that would destroy other lives. There are messages that would end careers and obliterate families. f those text messages were to be made public,
Charlie: They won't be.
Molly: If they were...
Charlie: They won't be.
Molly: ...it would be catastrophic for many people.
Charlie: I'm a lawyer. I'm legally...listen to me...I am legally prohibited from disclosing anything...
Molly: Someone leaked my last deposition to the National Enquirer, Charlie.

...

Molly [after Charlie tooses her his phone]: What is this for?
Charlie: It's got every text message and e-mail I sent in the last year as well as a variety of incriminating evidence about my clients. Now, if anything of yours gets leaked, you can sell my phone to the highest bidder and I'll lose my job and get disbarred.
Molly: So, in order to demonstrate the sanctity of your attorney/client confidentiality, you're betraying the confidentiality of all your other clients.
Charlie: I know you're not gonna look at it.
Molly: How do you know?
Charlie: I don't know.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I liked Harlan. But nobody else like him except Player X. He played tight, didn't give a lot of action and always got his money in good which means he was running the odds. In other words, he was playing poker and the others were gambling. And he won. By midnight, Harlan had tripled his original $50,000 buy-in but everything came off the rails with one hand. And that's how it happens. That's how you go full tilt. Harlan, the best player at the table, the best player at most tables, was about to get bluffed off the win by, of all people, Bad Brad. How? Because Harlan had never played with Brad before and didn't know yet that Brad was bad. Harlan's got a boat, nine's full. Brad's got nothing but his pre-flop betting made it look, entirely accidentally, like there was a chance he had pocket kings, which, if true, would give him the better full house. Brad's counting off 20 thousand which means he's gonna call and Harlan knows that if Brad's gonna call and not raise it means he didn't have the boat and he's betting a high two-pair, probably kings and queens. But then instead of calling the bet, Brad pushes 72 thousand dollars into the pot. Harlan looks a Brad. Every tell Harlan knows about, carotid artery pumping, stiff hands, Brad's doing the opposite. Brad's betting had represented a huge hand by calling on the flop, check-raising the turn and bombing the river. Of course, Harlan didn't know that Brad didn't know what any of that meant. So Harlan, always a good sport, said, Nice bet. I'm laying this down. As he tossed in what he didn't realize was the winning hand. Brad tosses in his cards too and one of them flips over and Harlan sees... Harlan: You didn't have pocket kings? Brad: I didn't have any kings. Except the one in the middle. Harlan: You had two pair? Brad: I had one pair, the nines in the middle. ... Molly: You're on tilt. Everybody knows it. You're playing without the weapons you need to win. Harlan: You're right. Just give me 500,000. I just gotta get back to even. Molly [voiceover]: That should be the second line of every gambler's obit. "Mr. Feldstein died while trying to get back to even." Harlan never did. You can say that again. Player X: I think we should talk about capping your tips. Molly: You want to get together with the other players, who on my tax return are called clients, and discuss putting a ceiling on my wages? Player X: That's right. Molly [voiceover]: Right there, right then, that fast, I lost the game. It was the next Tuesday, game night. He waited until he knew I'd be on the way to the hotel and then sent me a text. It said, "We're playing at Dave's tonight. No need to show up." And I knew the truth even before I answered the call that came next. Player X [on the phone to Molly]: You are so fucked. ... Molly: I'm refusing you permission to seek a minor role reduction. I'm refusing you permission to invalidate my entire career. I built a successful... Charlie: Hey, do you want kids? You interested in having a family? Molly: Very much. Charlie: I don't get you some point reductions and the sentencing recommendation guidelines say 8 to 12 years and that's before they try to jam you up more for money laundering. Molly: Money laundering? Are you... Charlie: The moment you changed the Russians' money for chips. Molly: I would've had to have been aware where the money was... Charlie: Find me 12 men and women who'll believe that you weren't aware of exactly who was sitting at your table and where their money came from. So, that's it. You were a cocktail waitress. ... Molly [voiceover]: When I lost the L.A. game, I told myself it was no big deal. It was just supposed to be an adventure and a way to meet influential people. And I'd saved over$200,000. But that was just a weak firewall I'd hastily built to keep out the humiliation and depression I knew was coming. It had to end sometime. I just thought it would be on my time. The game had given me an identity, respect, and a defined place in a world that was inaccessible and in one irrational heartbeat it was taken away. I was irrelevant and forgotten overnight. It'd been two weeks since I lost the game and I made an appointment to see someone because now the humiliation and depression had given way to blinding anger at my powerlessness over the unfair whims of men. It was that there weren't any rules. These power moves weren't framed by right and wrong, just ego and vanity. Selfish whims with no regard for consequence. No fairness, no justice. And that giggling, cackling call from Player X. You are so fucked. I couldn't lose to that green-screened little shit and I didn't want a therapist to make me feel okay about it. You know what makes me feel okay about losing? Winning. I got on a plane to New York.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Wall Street, Madison Avenue, Fifth Avenue, the Dakota, the San Remo... the players were here, I just had to bait the hook. This time, I didn't have movie stars. This time, I used Playboy Playmates.

...

Molly [voiceover]: We couldn't promise anyone they'd rub elbows with movie stars. But New York has one thing Hollywood doesn't. The Yankees. And there was one Yankee in particular that every man in America would line up to lose to.

...

Molly [voiceover]: It took only seven weeks of recruiting to get ten players and seven on a waiting list. And in these circles, that was more than enough to start the mythology. By morning, gamblers would be telling and hearing stories about this game in London, Tokyo, and Dubai. All in. At the end of that year, I reported an income of four million, seven hundred and seventy-three thousand dollars. Every square inch of it legal and on the books. I was the biggest game runner in the world. All tips. I still hadn't taken a rake. And I still hadn't accidentally recruited members of a Russian crime syndicate.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Casinos had discovered that certain scents make people more likely to place big bets. The casinos pump those scents in through the ventilation. I had custom candles made.

...

B: Your exposure's crazy. It's not if, it's when. You're gonna get blown up. Your risk is nuts.
Molly: If I took a rake, this game would no longer be legal.
B: And if you can't cover, this game will no longer exist. You're the bank now. You're guaranteeing the game.

...

Molly [voiceover]: There was now 3 million dfollars on the table. B was right, I was extending credit, big numbers. And it's not like Harlan Eustice hadn't already put the fear of God into me. If I couldn't pay, one time, that'd be the end of the game. I was the house. That's how quickly I made the decision. And just as quickly, B calculated two percent of the pot and took it off the table. That was it. I'd just taken a rake, in violation of U.S. Criminal Code 1955.

Cue the Russians?

Molly [voiceover]: People have asked, "Wasn't there any way to tell that some of the players at your game are connected to one of the darkest, deadliest, and far-reaching organized crime syndicates in the world?" No. There wasn't.

...

Charlie: The government is expressing an interest in you being a cooperating witness.
Molly: You don't say. Who could have possibly seen that coming? Let's have the conversation. It'll be short because I don't know anything at all that can help them.
Charlie: You don't know anything that can help them convict the Russians but you know things that can help them.
Molly: Did you know that 97 percent of federal cases never make it to trial? Even though the chances of being convicted at trial is a little more than one in a hundred.
Charlie: If you want to go to trial, that's fine but it's gonna cost you in the area of three and a half million dollars.
Molly: Which the Justice Department knows I don't have because they took all of my money in a civil forfeiture which they can do without a warrant because my property doesn't have a presumption of innocence. Then after I'm arrested by 17 agents holding automatic weapons, totally necessary and not at all meant to intimidate me, I'm given two days to hire a lawyer and appear in a courtroom on the other side of the country.
Charlie: If you are saying that everything that happens from the moment you are arrested is designed to persuade you to plead guilty, you are correct.

...

Charlie: So, to be clear, you're not interested in entering a cooperation agreement with the prosecutors.
Molly: If I had testimony that would lead to the conviction of a bad guy, no one would have to coerce me into cooperating. But I don't. I have dirt. I have dish. I have gossip. So my value to the prosecution is exactly the same as it is to Hollywood. I'm here to ensure the New York Post covers the trial. I'm here to sell tickets.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I felt like I was in a hole so deep, I could go fracking. It didn't feel like depression, it felt more violent. I was tired of living in the frat house I'd built for degenerates. I was tired of the greed-- mine, not theirs. Everybody's. I was sick of being high all the time. I was sick of living in the gray area. I couldn't recognize myself and what I recognized, I couldn't stand.

...

Russian mob thug [to Molly after beating her up]: It wasn't an offer they made. It wasn't a suggestion. This'll be your only reminder.

...

Molly [voiceover]: I couldn't call a doctor or go to an E.R. They'd take one look at me and call the police. My eyes were swollen and black. my lips were cut and bloody. I couldn't feel my face.

...

...

Larry [to Molly]: You tripped over a stick. Okay? Twelve years ago you tripped over a stick. It was a one-in-a-million thing. You tripped over a stick. That's what you did wrong.

...

Charlie: There's a new offer on the table. We hand over the hard drives. We hand over the forensic imaging of the e-mails and texts in exchange for uh...
Molly: What could they possibly offer for me to do that?
Charlie: Your money back. They'll give you all your money back plus interest. It's over 5 million dollars.
Molly: Is that why they took it in the first place? So they could offer it back to me?
Charlie: Yeah. For what it's worth, if we went to trial you'd have to hand over the forensic imaging in discovery.
Molly: But that's different from voluntarily handing it over.
Charlie: Sure, but it's not really voluntary anymore when the alternative is prison. And that's what they're gonna recommend, 42 months.
Molly: Why do you keep breaking eye contact with me?
Charlie: I-I'm looking right at you.
Molly: You think I should do it.
Charlie: You gotta let me keep you out of prison.
Molly: You've seen what's on those hard drives.
Charlie: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot more than a little color. Yeah, but complete immunity. All right? You get all your money back. You'll be the first defendant to walk out of a courtroom better off than when you walked in.
Molly: Careers will be ruined. Families. Wives, lives on both coasts...
Charlie: Hey, when a rich guy goes to jail he spreads his money around. His-his lawyer knows how to take care of that. He spreads his money around. You don't have any! The composition of female inmates in federal prison...they did not commit financial crimes. They're drug dealers. They get raped by prison guards. You...you will not be anonymous, Molly. You will be a target!
Molly: Children will read their father's text messages saying he wished he'd never had kids. Charlie: These guys...These guys, where are they? Why are you in this alone? Where are your friends? Where is the one guy saying, "Hey, you know, Molly, I know you're doing everything to save my life, what can I do for you? Let me buy you a sandwich. Where are they, Molly?" You kept their secrets. Where are the people you're protecting by not telling the whole story in the book, by settling the Brad Marion suit, by not taking five million dollars of your own money, by going to jail? Where did everybody go?!

She doesn't buy it. Why? To protect her good name.

Judge: Understanding everything you've been told, do you now wish to enter a plea?
Molly: Yes, sir.
Judge: How do you plead to the charge?

...

Molly [voiceover]: And then something happened.

...

Judge: Would the defendant please rise for sentencing.
[Molly stands]
Judge: Based on all available information, this court manifestly disagrees with the government's sentencing recommendation. This courthouse is located within spitting distance of Wall Street. I know this from my personal experience trying to spit at it. The men and women who work there will commit more serious crimes by lunchtime today than the defendant has committed in this indictment. I simply don't see how either the people or the cause of justice are served by locking Molly Bloom in prison...Ms. Bloom, this court sentences you to two hundred hours of community service, one year of supervised probation, drug testing and a two hundred thousand dollar fine. This case is adjourned.

...

Molly [voiceover]: And that was that. It was crying and hugging, jokes from my brothers. Tough talk about how no one messes with the Blooms and level-headed talk about Christmas miracles. Steaks and beer bought by my father and full reenactments. And in the middle of it all, as grateful as you are, the reality starts creeping toward you like the tide. And that's the first time you have the thought... "What do I do now?"

...

Molly [voiceover]: I'm a felon. I'm 35 years old, unemployed, and pled guilty in a mob indictment. I owe the government close to two million dollars in taxes assessed on the civil forfeiture plus the two hundred thousand dollar fine. And you better believe they're gonna come get it. I have a quarter of a million dollars in legal bills. I don't know what I'd say in a job interview, or if I'll ever be given a job interview. And for some reason, I'm not allowed to go to Canada.

...

Molly [voiceover]: Did anything good come of this? Not really. But I learned something encouraging. I'm very hard to kill. Winston Churchill defined success as The ability to move from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. So, I guess I'm pot-committed.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

What seems like centuries ago, I toyed with the idea of becoming a "Maoist". So, as a consequence, I was ever keen on figuring out how life actually did unfold for "the ordinary people" who were embedded both historically and existentially in the revolutionary upheals unfolding in China back then.

Well, as they say, that's all over. China today [politically] may well still basically be in the hands of an autocratic few, but the economy [like the social interactions] is anything but what it once was "back then".

It appears that the "cultural revolution" has given way [almost unimaginably] to a rendition of "state capitalism" that some argue will soon become the dominant economy around the globe.

So, naturally, I'm curious once again to understand what life might be like for the "ordinary people" now that these enormous changes continue to reconfigure what I once thought was into what I think might be now.

In Old Stone, "a Chinese taxi driver finds himself plunged into a Kafkaesque nightmare where no good deed goes unpunished...in a society rife with bone-chilling callousness and bureaucratic indifference."

On the other hand, as with Daniel Blake's travail in England above, is the ordeal endured by Lao Shi in China basically a snapshop of the world to come for all of us? Is this the path we are all headed down? And how typical is this sort of thing in modern day China?

Stil, as with Daniel Blake, in turn, it's just a single snapshot of a particular narrative revolving around a particular context. So, by and large, we will generally take out of it only that which we first put into it: our own unique sense of reality.

Here's how one reviewer [Manohla Dargis] reacted:

His first mistake is reporting the accident; his second is trying to help the bleeding victim instead of splitting. No good deed goes unpunished in this vision of contemporary China, a dog-eat-dog world in which the strong don’t just consume the weak, they also suck the marrow out of every last bone.

What else is there until someone is able to tell us definitively that which all "rational and virtuous" men and women are obligated to think and to feel.

Until then, we're on our own.

This is basically the story of an honest and decent man who tumbles down into a set of circumstances that reconfigures him into something altogether different. Then it's only a matter of asking yourself, "what would I have done?"

And this is also a world in which, yet again, as with Daniel Blake above, Lao Shi's own unique set of circumstances [as a teeny tiny individual] get dumped into a labyrinthian procession of one or another official "procedures".

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Stone
trailer: https://youtu.be/1CGfmjazFz4

Old Stone [Lao Shi] 2016
Written and directed by Johnny Ma

Doctor: We need to get him registered first so we can perform surgury. The cashier is over there.
Lao Shi: But isn't this covered by insurance?
Doctor: Hurry!

...

Sign on the wall in the hospital: HAVE YOU SMILED TODAY?

...

Cashier: It's 234 rmb for this bill. And this one is 12,340 rmb.
Lao Shi [shocked]: how can it be so expensive.
Cashier: The surgery alone is over 8,000. And the emergency room is 1,000.

He may as well live in America.

Lao Shi [to the police]: I was driving, and I had a passenger who was very drunk. He grabbed my arm all of a sudden causing me to swerve. That's how I hit the motorcycle.

...

Police: It's against procedure to leave the scene before we've arrived.
Lao Shi: I had no choice. The doctor said he would have died if I had been any later.

...

Wife: What's wrong? You've been acting strange all day.

...

Insurance agent: Normally the driver should report the accident to the company as soon as possible. Then the company reports to us. That's the procedure. Now, the most important thing is the police accident report.
Lao Shi: I tried to save someone. I didn't have time to wait for some report.
Taxi company official: We have our procedures, so does the insurance company. They can't just pay if we don't follow the right procedure.
Insurance agent: Mr. Shi, without the accident report, we cannot know if the man's injuries are from the accident or from you driving him to the hospital. How do we know if it's our responsibility to pay?
Lao Shi: What are you saying, that I hurt him by helping him?!

So, it's all about the money there too. And now the guy on the motorcyle is in a coma. With bills mounting everyday.

Captain: What's that?
Lao Shi [holding a phone]: Someone left it in the cab. I think it belongs to that drunk guy I picked up the other day.

...

Wife: So what were you doing at the hospital today?

...

Wife: My husband is a taxi driver, and he had an accident a few days ago. He took the guy directly to the hospital and didn't wait for the police to arrive. These are the hospital bills. We've been paying for everrything so far.
Lao Ma [a lawyer]: This is not a nice thing to say, but if he had died at the scene, this would be a much easier situation. But now this is a lot more complicated.

...

Wife: How much more have you not told me? What else are you hiding?
Lao Shi: I just didn't want you to worry.
Wife: How did you know their family doesn't have money?
Lao Shi: His wife told me.

...

Wife: So what do you propose we do now?
Lao Shi: I already told them I would pay.

...

Lao Shi: Nurse, I wanted to ask...how often do people in his condition wake up?
Nurse: It's hard to say. Some after a few days, others a few months. But the one on the 9th floor, he's been laying there for five years. Still asleep. The ones who are asleep, they have it easy. It's the ones who are awake that are suffering.

...

Cashier [after swipting Lao Shi's credit card]: It says you don't have enough funds.
Lao Shi: I just used it yeaterday.
Cashier: Do you have another card? It says there are "insufficient funds".

...

Lao Shi [on phone]: What happened to all the money in the account?
Wife: I took it all out. If you're not going to protect this family, I will.

...

Lao Shi: You took my taxi. Do you remember?
Taxi passenger [the drunk who caused the accident]: Taxi? Oh, right...to the airport.
Lao Shi: You were pretty drunk that day.
Passenger: I left my phone in the taxi.
Lao Shi: That's why I'm here, to give it back.
[the man tries to offer him money]
Lao Shi: No, no, no. I didn't bring your phone because of money. I need to talk to you...when you took my cab, we got into an accident. The injured person has been in the hospital all this time, and hasn't woken up. I've been paying the medical bills for months now.
Passenger: How's this my problem?
Lao Shi: You can't possibly forget. You were so drunk that day, and you grabbed my arm, causing me to swerve...
Lao Shi: Yes.
Passenger [aruptly]: Thank you for returning my phone, but I really have to go now, really.

Nope, he's not nearly so foolish as Lao Shi. There's what's true and there's what's in his own best interest.

Passenger: Why are you following me? Even if I was responsible as you say, can you prove it? You go ahead and try.
Passenger: What do you want from me?
Lao Shi: Not much. Just come to the police station with me and make a statement. And I'll never bother you again. Simple as that.

Though not quite as simple [and dumbfounding] as what comes next.

Lao ma [to Lao Shi]: Even though the patient has been discharged from the hospital, his head wounds have not fully healed. His future expense will continue to be your responsibility. If something should ever happen, and you default on your legal obligation to pay then the debt will be transferred to your family. You need to stop dragging them down with you.

Of course all the while we are reacting to this as someone who knows where the truth really lies here.

Man from the motorcycle accident: Where you from? You look kind of familiar.
Lao Shi: Just passing through.

...

Man from the motorcycle accident [yanking off his head bandage]: I'm sick of wearing this all the time just to get an extra bit of money.

...

Man from the motorcycle accident: Help! Help! Murderer! Don't come any closer...stop right there. What did I ever do to you?!

Cue the really grim [and really ironic] ending.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Just as there are arguments regarding the best movie ever made, there are arguments regarding the worst.

And there are a lot to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f ... _the_worst

And, apparently, The Room might just be that film. But the weird thing is that, over time, some of these films actually become beloved [more pr less] precisely because they are considered to be so bad.

This is a movie about the making of the movie The Room. About all the "weird and mysterious" characters involved. One in particular.

The idea being that just because the powers that be in Hollywood reject you, that doesn't mean the film is not going to be made. And many are able to convince themselves that what they imagine in their head is, if not pure genius, close enough. But then once the film is made you still have to deal with, among other things, the reaction of the audience. And just because you pride yourself on being "independent" doesn't mean that the film won't stink. Still, not every so-called "bad movie" becomes [in the opinion of some] "the cult film equivalent of Citizen Kane".

You know, whatever that means.

In other words, while some might imagine the film will be mocking Tommy Wiseau and The Room, it's actually just the opposite: a celebration of them.

Then it's up to us to decide if it really should have been the other way around.

On the other hand, how many people will there be [like me] who knew nothing at all about either one? I have absolutely no idea how to react to them myself. Tommy sees himself and the world around him from his "very own planet". He's just fucking weird.

For some the film is an all-time classic. But from Tommy's point of view, for all the wrong reasons. So now he has to learn to laugh along with them. Even though he suspects that many of them are really laughing at him.

Look for Tom Cruise. And Tom Berenger. Sort of.

IMDb

To promote the film the distributor rented the same billboard on Highland Avenue in Los Angeles that Tommy Wiseau rented for five years to promote The Room (2003), mimicking the layout of the original billboard and including a phone number to RSVP to screenings.

James Franco spoke like Tommy Wiseau throughout each day's filming, and even directed using Wiseau's distinctive voice and syntax, though Jason Mantzoukas said that Franco did not direct in character and only spoke like Wiseau.

James Franco recalled driving in Los Angeles after 2003 and seeing the giant billboard for the film that Wiseau rented for five years. Franco said he initially thought it might be for a cult, because of the phone number on the billboard.

Tommy Wiseau himself appears in the post credit scene as an invented character named Henry. The scene was written and filmed as one of the conditions for selling his life rights to the film.

In the rehearsal scene of "Waiting For Godot," the director says that it's pronounced "Guh-DOH," not "GOD-oh." However, Samuel Beckett stated that "GOD-oh" is in fact the correct pronunciation, thus the actor was actually correct, though that was in all likelihood not the intent here.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3521126/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disaster_Artist_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/cMKX2tE5Luk

The Disaster Artist [2017]
Directed by James Franco

Celebrity narrator: If you were to ask the five best filmmakers in the world right now to make a movie like this... it... it wouldn't even be in the same universe.

...

Celebrity narrator: I was blown away. Like, like three minutes into it, I figure this is the fucking greatest movie I've ever seen in my life.

...

Celebrity narrator: It has withstood, like ten years? And people are still watching a movie and talking about a movie. People aren't doing that about whatever won the Oscar for best picture ten years ago.

...

Celebrity narrators: What genius is behind this? Tommy wanted to break barriers in filmmaking. I think that he had a very clear vision. He is a figure of mystery where, you know, you do wanna learn more about him.

...

Celebrity narrators: Who is this man? Who is this auteur? The kind of sheer ambition of it... is...is in-incredible. The numbers probably prove how unlikely it is that you'll make it. If I had a time machine...I would go back and try and get on that set just to watch and feel what it was like 'cause it has to be...unbelievable.

...

Tommy [moaning and groaning, climbing the wall, writhing on the stage floor]: Stella... Stella... Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella. Stella! Stella! Stella! Stella! Don't ever leave me, baby.

...

Tommy: Why you pullin'?
Greg: No, just, you know, none of my friends have a car this nice.
Tommy: 'Cause all your friends little kids.
Greg: You know, I just mean it's expensive, It's nice, that'-that's all.
Tommy: Don't talk about me. What I drive. What I say, what I do. Don't tell anybody. You understand, yeah?
Greg: Yeah. No, I-I won't.
Tommy: 'Kay. And don't look at robot crab. He's shy.

...

Tommy: I don't see point.
Greg: Okay, um. All right, listen, when um, when I... When I get up on stage in front of people... It's like all I could think about is uh... "what if-what if they laugh at me? Or if I embarrass myself?" Mm-hmm. Um, but you, man, you're like fucking fearless! And I just-- I-I wanna feel that too. I just, I want--I want that.

Fearless? Cue the scene in the restaurant.

Greg: Your accent threw me off.
Tommy: What accent?

...

Tommy: I don't want career.
Greg: You don't want a career? I thought that's...
Tommy: I want my own planet.

...

Greg: You know he died just a little bit south of here? I wanna go one day to the crash site. Pay my respects.
Tommy: Why don't we go now?
Greg: Now? Now, Tommy, it's not that close. It's like 300 miles away.
Tommy: 300 mile, who care? We just do it.
Greg: It would take hours, man....Tommy, are you serious?
Tommy: Yeah, I'm serious. Greg, the Dean won't come to you. You have to go to the Dean. Road trip!

...

Woman [at an audition]: Am I hearing an accent?
Tommy: Uh, no, no, what do you mean?
Woman: 'Cause I'm hearing a kinda eastern European accent.
Tommy: Nah, that, uh, that's from New Orleans.
Woman: Where? What?
Tommy: New Orleans, you heard? You know? The Big Easy?
Woman: Oh, New Orleans! I thought, I didn't know what you were saying. Okay, yeah, well... Can we just try to lose the accent?

He sort of loses it.

Tommy: You heard of Konstantin Stanislavski?
Greg: Of course, yeah, he's like the greatest acting teacher of all time.
Tommy: Yeah, and now he Tommy acting teacher. He seen something special in me, you know, maybe you know, I become big star. So I have first class this evening.
Amber: I'm pretty sure Stanislavski's dead.

...

Friend: Fire that fuckin' spooky friend of yours. That fuckin' vampire-lookin' motherfucker. It's like...
Greg: Tommy?
Friend: Who is-who is he?
Greg: He's just-I don't know, he's a friend. He's my roommate.
Friend: 'Cause he's fuckin'...You can't go anywhere with that dude. Hollywood's pussy dries up when you walk in with this dude. I... I... I... They just fuckin' clamp shut like a fuckin'... Hollywood puts on a fuckin' chastity belt around him.

Cue Tommy auditioning Shakespeare in a Hollywood restaurant.

David [a Hollywood producer]: Tommy? Just because you want it doesn't mean it can happen. Okay? It's one in a million, even if you have Brando's talent. It's not gonna happen for you. Okay?
Tommy: Maybe...
David: I'm not saying maybe. I'm saying not in a million years.
Tommy: And after that?

...

Tommy: This town, Greg. They don't want me. They don't understand me. Maybe I don't have what it take.
Greg: Yeah, man, I know what you mean.
Tommy: You do?
Greg: Yeah. My agent won't return my calls, and...all I hear is no all day, every day, it's... it's fuckin' hard, man.
Tommy: Nobody like me, Greg. Nobody give me chance. My whole life.

...

Greg: All right, we said we were gonna push each other. Never give up on our dreams, right?
Tommy: I just don't know how, Greg.
Greg [wistfully]: I wish we could just make our own movie.
Tommy [the light blub turning on]: That great idea.

...

Greg: You finished?
Tommy [slamming The Room script on the table]: It's my masterpiece. Greatest drama since the Tennessee Williams.

...

Tommy: And of course, you play Mark.
Greg: What? You want...you want me to play Mark in this? Hey, big role.
Tommy: Second lead. Yeah, it's a huge role.
Greg: Are you-are you sure?
Tommy: Well, you don't wanna do it, fine. Maybe Johnny Dapp available.

...

Tommy: We don't rent, we buy.
Greg: Is that not normal?
Birns and Sawyer: Industry standard is pretty much that you would rent the equipment because it's so prohibitively expensive to own it.
Tommy: Okay. I said no problem. Okay, I guess we'll buy.
Birns and Sawyer: You wanna shoot 35 or HD?
Tommy: Well, we'll shoot both on this film.
Birns and Sawyer: Digital and film? But you'd need twice the crew, uh, twice the equipment. I mean...they're lit differently. It's just not done.
Tommy: I have vision.
Greg: Tommy, the pioneer, man. He--that's--He wants to go outside the box. It's what he does.

...

Tommy [explaining his "vision" of the movie to the cast and crew]: Okay, everyone gather round. Everyone gather round. Come on, don't be shy....Today our top of mountain day. Today we take first steps on a great journey. After today, which one of ourselves will ever be same? This play work if chemistry between character make sense. Human behavior. Betrayal. It applies to all of us. It's in ourselves. You love someone. What is love? You need to have spirit, hope. Be optimist. But can you handle all your human behavior and behavior of others? Right? Right, see what I'm saying? You don't wanna be good. You wanna be great.

...

Tommy: We do alley scene.
Sandy: This set of the alleyway looks exactly like the real alley out there.
Tommy: That's right. That's what we do in Hollywood movie, right?
Sandy: Well, why don't we just shoot in the real alleyway?
Tommy: Because is real Hollywood movie.

...

Sandy: I'd like to cash this check if uh, possible.
Bank teller: Okay. Uh, is 20's okay?
Sandy: Went through?
Bank teller: Yeah.
Sandy: That is shocking. There's actually money in there?
Bank teller: This account...It's like a bottomless pit.

...

Sandy: Take 67. Action!

...

Sandy: Cut! Oh, God.
[he walks over to Tommy]
Sandy: Uh. Hey, uh... So... the story he's telling you...the one you... yourself wrote...
Tommy: Yeah?
Sandy: It's not a funny story, Tommy. I thought this was a serious scene, Tommy? Why are you laughing?
Tommy: Well, some-sometimes people do crazy things, right? Human behavior.
Sandy: Okay, fair enough. Maybe just get one...where you don't laugh at the story, okay?

Nope, doesn't happen.

Tommy [to no one in particular]: It's human behavior.

...

[Tommy watches himself being discussed on the documentary video]
Raphael: He knows nothing about filmmaking. He's a complete idiot. I don't even think he's seen a movie.
Sandy: Clearly never been on a set before.
Raphael: Have you ever heard of someone producing, directing...
Tommy [to himself]: This guys doesn't know anything.
Raphael: Who gives this guy money?
Sandy: Oh, I don't even wanna get into that, that's something I don't even want to probe.

...

Greg: This is not necessary.
Tommy: No, very necessary. I need to show my ass to sell this movie.
Greg: Maybe uh, at least we have a closed set?
Tommy: Not closed set, open set. Life is not closed set. I want everyone to see. You especially.
Juliette/Lisa: What? Why? What?
Tommy: Brad Pitt do this in "The Legend of the Falls."

...

Greg: What's going on with you?
Tommy: Stanley Kubrick, he nice to actors? Alfred Hitchcock? Let me tell you something, Greg. He do this movie, "Birds."
Greg: Yeah, I'm aware of The Birds.
Tommy: On this movie, he terrify actors. He locked them in room. He throw-he throw birds at them. Real birds! Th-Th-Th... Nasty stuff. The actors, they cry every day. But this movie win every award. Is Mr. Hitchcock bad man? No. He great director.
Greg: Yeah, but he was an asshole. And I bet he didn't direct with his fucking dick out!

...

Juliette: I think you're aiming a little bit high.
Tommy: I aim where I aim. Just do the scene.
Sandy [watching the scene]: Why is he having sex with her belly button? He knows where her vagina is, right?

...

Tommy [to the whole crew]: Where Markus? Markus! This Mar--film now. This Markus, I hire him do documentary "The Making of The Room." He capture every comment. "Oh, yeah, Tommy weird." "Tommy like Frankenstein." "He like, he like vampire rapist." I hear everything. I have ears everywhere. I hear your whispers in your souls. You're on my planet. Okay?

...

Tommy [to camerman]: Make sure you see my ass!

...

Cast member: Hey, Greg. Can we ask you something?
Greg: Yeah.
Cast member: What is this movie about?

...

Tommy: I take you to Los Angeles, give you place to stay. I write you this part. I do this whole movie for you, Greg?....Don't betray me, Greg.
Greg: I'm not betraying you.
Tommy: What I say? We do this together? Now you betray me.
Greg: So, are you gonna let me do it or not?
Tommy: Not up to me, Greg. Up to you. You have to choose. You do this TV show, "Little Malcolm." Or you do the movie. Our movie, Greg.

...

Sandy: Let's go to a bar and erase the memory of today.

...

Tommy: Greg! Dammit, why you throw this tricky stuff?
Greg: All right, man, you wanna get real? You wanna get real for the cameras, let's get real. Hey, you guys gettin' this? Yeah, good. Let's get real. Where were you born, Tommy?
Tommy: No... Greg, that not part of scene.
Greg: Where are you from? It's a simple question.
Tommy: I'm from New Orleans. New Orleans. From the bayou.
Greg: You guys hear that? This guy with this fuckin' accent is from "the bayou."
Tommy: Greg...
Greg: Oh, you want an easier question? Let's see...where does the money come from, huh?
Tommy: Greg, stop! This on camera!
Greg: I know it's on camera just like you wanted. All right, just tell me this one thing...How old are you?
Greg: You're my age? You're my age?! I'm just your friend....There is no fucking way you're in your 20's, all right? You are a fucking villain! Fucking Frankenstein-looking motherfucker!
Tommy: I not villain!

...

Tommy: You didn't RSVP.
Greg: Yeah, I'm not coming. And...honestly, maybe...maybe you shouldn't have a premiere at all.
Tommy: Greg. We made pact. Remember? To never lose sight of our dream. Well, on Friday... they premiere a movie. Our movie, Greg. In real live theater. I know you don't like me anymore. So don't do it for me. Do it for you, Greg. You'll finally get to see yourself on big screen. This was your dream too, Greg.

...

Raphael [at the movie premier]: That was fucking weird.
Sandy: Yup. At this point, it would be fucking weird if he didn't do something that was fucking weird.

Audience reaction at the premier? Brutal. Really brutal. They are basically howling with laughter.

Greg: Hey, Tommy.
Tommy: They hate it. I know. I know, they're...
Greg: They're just- they're just laughing.
Tommy: Yeah, they're laughing. Laughing at me. Maybe it's true, you know. Maybe everybody right, maybe... Maybe I just big joke. Ha ha.
Greg: Come on, Tommy.
Tommy: I tried to open my heart, show them my soul, and... they just hate me. Even you hate me, Greg.
Greg: Hey, hey, hey. Listen to me, all right? All right, that thing up there? That's your movie. You made that. All right, like you said, you did that all by yourself.

So, is that consolation enough?

Greg [to Tommy]: Maybe it didn't turn out exactly as you hoped. But just listen for a second... Look how much fun they're having. They fucking love it, man....How often do you think Hitchcock got a response like this?

...

Audience [shooting at the screen..the scene where Tommy puts the gun in his mouth]: Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Tommy! Go, man!

Cue the standing ovation.

Tommy [standing up on the stage, the audience cheering]: Okay. Wow. I'm glad you like my comedic movie! Exactly how I intended.

...

Title card: The Room was released in one theater on June 27th, 2003. Tommy paid to keep it there for 2 weeks in an effort to qualify for the Academy Awards. Though the exact figures remain confidential, its production budget is alleged to have exceeded 6 million dollars. It grossed $1,800 on its opening weekend. It has since gained cult status and turned a profit, regularly playing to sold out midnight screenings around the world. To this day no one knows where Tommy is from. Or where he made his money. Or how old he is. Title card: Tommy Wiseau and Greg Sestero still speak everyday. They continue to write, act and produce together. They are best know for The Room. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 28796 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Liberals just love the Washington Post. And why not? With respect to almost all "social issues", the Post [like the New York Times] can be depended on to toe the progressive line. On the other hand, as with the New York Times, when it comes to Wall Street at home and American foreign policy abroad, both papers are solidly embedded in the ruling class. Here they are part and parcel of the military industrial complex; of policies that basically revolve around the interest of those corporations that butter their bread. Through, for example, advertising. The media industrial complex in America is there for all to see. The dots are clearly there to be connected. Consider: http://americanfreepress.net/washington ... g-silence/ https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/20 ... men-124074 This is simply how "the system" works. But don't expect editorials in the Washington Post or the Times to actually own up to this. Let alone it being a focus in the movie rendition. You see it today with Trump v. Press. In some respects, the media industrial complex go after him. But in other respects they will almost certainly leave him alone. To the extent that Trump attempts to reconfigure such things as "free trade" or the liberal rendition of American foreign policy, he is pummeled. But make no mistake that with respect to the war economy and a foreign policy that revolves around securing cheap labor, natural resources and lucrative markets, Trump and the Post are basically just two sides of the same crony capitalist coin. Newspapers, after all, are a business. Businesses revolve around the bottom line. And that intertwines them with, among others, bankers and advertisers and shareholders. Only this business revolves around selling "the news". The potential for a conflict of interest here is built right into the relationships themselves. And, occasionally, we are nudged in that direction here. But nudged is all. Anyway, you tell me: Is the United States government telling us lies about the "war on terror" today? In, say, the manner in which they lied to us about the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq? IMDb In his memoir, the real Daniel Ellsberg claimed that walking out of RAND with the Pentagon Papers (and returning them) over the course of months was a calculated risk, since he had never had his bag checked by security, but he did not know for sure if it was not policy to do so. In the scene showing Vietnam War protesters, the words spoken by one of them are taken from Mario Savio's "Put your bodies upon the gears" speech during the 1964 Free Speech Movement at the University of California at Berkeley. Though the movie is not about Watergate, it is fitting that the movie ends with the depiction of the Watergate break-in, since it is arguably true that the Watergate break-in would not have happened without the publication of the Pentagon Papers. Nixon's creation of the infamous "Plumbers" group was a direct response to the leaking of the Pentagon Papers (the Plumbers first major effort being breaking into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist in an effort to find discrediting information on him). It would be the major figures in the Plumbers who would hatch and execute the plot to break into the Democratic National Committee offices in the Watergate. The New York Times had published the Pentagon Papers before The Washington Post and had set the stage for legal battle that ended with the Supreme Court ruling in favor of the newspaper in the the case New York Times Co. v. United States (403 U.S. 713) . In June 2011, the entire Pentagon Papers were declassified and made public. In the 6-3 Court decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote, "Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people and sending them off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell." trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6294822/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Post_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/mfe0bnCiVDM The Post [2017] Directed by Steven Spielberg Soldier [in the field]: Who's the long hair? Soldier: That's Ellsberg--works with Langsdale at the Embassy. He's observing. ... McNamara: I've read every one of Ellsberg's reports, and I'm telling you, it's just not the case. Dan, you know Mr. Komer. He's been discussing the war with the President and, well, his sense is that we've made real progress over the past year, but I've been doing my own review and it seems to me that things have gotten worse. But neither of us have been in the field-- you have--you're the one who knows so, what do you say? Are things better or worse? Ellsberg: Well, Mr. Secretary, what I'm most impressed by is how much things are the same. ... Reporter: Mr. Secretary, I'm wondering if the trip left you optimistic or pessimistic about our prospects in this war and our ability to win it? McNamara: Well, you asked whether I was optimistic or pessimistic. Today, I can tell you that military progress over the past 12 months has exceeded our expectations. We're very encouraged by what we're seeing in Vietnam. In every respect, we're making progress. What is known as a government lie. Man [handing Times employee a folder marked "Project X"]: Tell 'em it's from Sheehan. Don't walk. ... Ben: Intern! You uh, workin' on anything important, chief? Intern: Uh, no, Mr. Bradlee. Well, everything we do is important...at The Post. Ben: Here's$40, I want you to take the first train up to New York and go to the-- go to The Times building on 43rd---don't tell 'em who you work for but find a reporter by the name of Sheehan.
Intern: Uh, Neil Sheehan?
Ben: Yeah, yeah, find out what Neil Sheehan is workin' on.
Intern: Is that legal?
Ben: Well, what is it you think we do here for a living, kid?

...

Arthur [after a board meeting]: Kay, it's your decision. But in my opinion, if you want this to be more than a little family paper, it has to be more than a little family business.

...

Kay: The Nixon White House is nothing if not vindictive. Just this morning, they barred us from covering Tricia Nixon's wedding.

Nixon and the Post then, Trump and the Post now. Only back then the Post was still basically just a "local paper".

McNamara [at Kay's home]: Kay, I wanted to tell you and I want you to hear from me first. There's an article about me coming out in The Times tomorrow. It's not flattering.

...

Kay [on the phone]: I'm sorry to bother you so late, but listen. Were you able to make any headway with Mr. Sheehan?
Bob: No, no, no. I haven't.
Kay: I just had an odd conversation with Bob McNamara. And...I think The Times may have a big story tomorrow. You know, he wouldn't give me any details, but Bob said it was quite... detrimental to him.

...

Newspaper headline in the New York Times, June 13, 1971: Vietnam Archive: Pentagon Study Traces 3 Decades of Growing U.S. Involvement

...

Nixon [on phone or from the tapes]: Nothing else of interest in the world?
Haig: Yes, sir, very significant this uh, goddamn New York Times expose of the most highly-classified documents of the war.
Nixon: You mean that...that was leaked out of the Pentagon? The-the whole study that was done for McNamara. This is a devastating, uh, security breach of the greatest magnitude of anything I've ever seen.
Haig: Well...Well, what, uh, what's being done about it, then?

Of course today we know damn well what was done about it.

Nixon [on phone or from the tapes]: Uh, Henry, that thing to me is just unconscionable-- this is treasonable action on the part of the bastards that put it out.
Kissinger: I'm absolutely certain that this violates all sorts of security laws.
Nixon: People have got to be put to the torch for this sort of thing.

...

Newspaper man [reading the Times piece]: Christ! McNamara knew we couldn't win in '65-- that's six goddamn years ago.
Ben: Well, at least we got the wedding.

...

Newspaper man: Ben, come on, it's one story.
Ben: No, it's 7,000 pages detailing how the White House has been lying about the Vietnam war for 30 years. It's Truman and Eisenhower and...Jack...LBJ lying...lying about Vietnam. And you think that's one story?

...

Kay: Bob McNamara's an old friend. He's going through a lot in his life right now. I just...he's probably said all he wants to say. Why, do you think?
Ben: Why? Why? Why is he talking to you?
Kay: Well, I just told you he's my friend, and...
Ben: Well, is he talking to any other friends?
Kay: I'm not sure I appreciate the implication of what you just...
Ben: McNamara is talking to you because you are the publisher of...
Kay: That's not true! -
Ben: ...of The Washington Post.
Kay: No. That is not why.
Ben: Because he wants you to bail him out.
Kay: No, there's no ulterior...
Ben: Because he wants you on his side.
Kay: No, Ben, that's not my role. You know that. I wouldn't presume to tell you how to write about him. Just as I wouldn't take it upon myself to tell him he should hand over a classified study, which would be a crime, by the way, just so he can serve as your source.
Ben: Our source, Katharine.
Kay: No, I--no. I'm not. I'm not going to ask Bob for the study.
Ben: I...I get it, you have a relationship with Bob McNamara. But don't you think you have an obligation as well to the paper and to the public?
Kay: Let me ask you something. Was that how you felt when you were palling around with Jack Kennedy? Where was your sense of duty then? I don't recall you pushing him particularly hard on anything.
Ben: I pushed Jack when I had to...I never pulled any punches.
Kay: Is that right? 'Cause you used to dine at the White House once a week. All the trips to Camp David. Oh, and that drunken birthday cruise on the Sequoia you told me about. Hard to believe you would've gotten all those invitations if you didn't pull a few punches.

...

Newscaster: Street protests broke out today across the country after the publication of more excerpts of a classified Department of Defense study in The New York Times. The study commissioned by former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara has ignited further debate over the ongoing war in Vietnam. As it makes clear that Kennedy and Johnson as well as Eisenhower and Truman deeply misled the country on Vietnam.

...

Nixon [on phone or from the tapes]: You know, Sheehan's a bastard-- he's been a bastard for years.
Ehrlichman: Mr. President, the Attorney General's called a couple of times about these New York Times stories.
Nixon: You mean to prosecute The Times? Hell, my view is to prosecute the goddamn pricks that gave it to him.
Ehrlichman: If you can find out who that is.
Nixon: Yeah, I know. I mean, could The Times be prosecuted?
Ehrlichman: Apparently so.
Nixon: As far as The Times is concerned, hell, they're our enemies, I think we just ought to do it.

...

Kay [on the phone]: Hey, listen, I've...I've got tomorrow's headlines. John Mitchell contacted The Times, seems the President's going to seek an injunction
Ben: No shit! This means we're in the goddamn ballgame. Because if The Times get shut down...
Kay: If they get shut down, there is no ballgame. Ballgame's over.
Ben: But Katharine, any-anybody would kill to have a crack at this.
Kay: Well, sure, but not if it means breaking the law. If a federal judge stops The Times from publishing, well, I don't see how we could publish--even if we could get hold of a copy.
[Ben says nothing]
Kay: So. Ben? You have something?
Ben: No.
Kay: Okay, so then there's nothing to talk about, really.
Ben: No. Nothing to talk about at all, but uh... But thank you for the tip.

...

Cronkite [on TV]: The New York Times late today was barred at least until Saturday from publishing any more classified documents dealing with the cause and conduct of the Vietnam war. The Times, true to its word, said it would abide by the decision of federal judge Murray Gurfein but will resist a permanent injunction at a hearing Friday. The Nixon administration had charged that the final two parts of The Times' series would result in irreparable injury to the national defense.
Reporter: Hell, why bother fighting the communists?
Reporter: I think Jefferson just rolled over in his grave.
Reporter: Have the courts ever stopped a paper from publishing before?
Reporter: Not in the history of the Republic.
Reporter: Good thing we're not part of this mess.
Ben: I'd give my left one to be in this mess.

...

Bagdikian [looking at stacks and stacks of pages]: What the hell?
Daniel: Well, we were all former government guys. Top clearance, all that. McNamara wanted academics to have the chance to examine what had happened. He would say to us, "Let the chips fall where they may."
Bagdikian: Brave man.
Daniel: Well, I think guilt was a bigger motivator than courage. McNamara didn't lie as well as the rest. But I-I don't think he saw what was coming, what we'd find, but it didn't take him long to figure out--well, for us all to figure out. If the public ever saw these papers, they would turn against the war. Covert ops, guaranteed debt, rigged elections, it's all in there. Ike, Kennedy, Johnson... They violated the Geneva Convention, and they lied to Congress and they lied to the public. They knew we couldn't win and still sent boys to die.
Daniel: He's just carrying on like all the others. Too afraid to be the one who loses the war on his watch. Someone said this at some point about why we stayed when we knew we were losing. Ten percent was to help the South Vietnamese. Twenty percent was to hold back the commies. Seventy percent was to avoid the humiliation of an American defeat. Seventy percent of those boys just to avoid being humiliated? That stuck with me.

...

Bagdikian: They're gonna lock you up, Dan.
Daniel: Wouldn't you go to prison to stop this war?
Bagdikian: Theoretically, sure.
Daniel [warily]: You are gonna publish these documents?
Bagdikian: Yeah.
Daniel: Even with the injunction.
Bagdikian: Yes.
Daniel: Well, it's not so theoretical then, is it?

...

Ben: So, can I ask you a hypothetical question?
Kay: Oh, dear, I don't like hypothetical questions.
Ben: Well, I don't think you're gonna like the real one, either.

...

Ben: You know, the only couple I knew that both Kennedy and LBJ wanted to socialize with was you and your husband. And you own the damn paper. It's just the way things worked. Politicians and the press, they trusted each other so they could go to the same dinner party and drink cocktails and tell jokes while there was a war raging in Vietnam.
Kay: Ben, I don't know what we're talking about. I'm not protecting Lyndon.
Ben: No, you got his former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the man who commissioned this study----he's one of about...
Kay: I'm not protecting him.
Ben: ...a dozen party guests out on your patio.
Kay: I'm not protecting any of them. I'm protecting the paper.

...

Ben: I never... I never thought of Jack as a source. I thought of him as a friend. And...And that was my mistake. And it was something that Jack knew all along. We can't be both, we have to choose. And uh...And that's the point. The days of us smoking cigars together down on Pennsylvania Avenue were over. Your friend McNamara's study proves that. The way they lied. The way they lied. Those days have to be over. We have to be the check on their power. If we don't hold them accountable, then, my God, who will?
Kay: Well, I've never smoked a cigar. And I have no problem holding Lyndon or Jack or Bob or any of them accountable. We can't hold them accountable if we don't have a newspaper.
Ben: When I get my hands on that study, what are you going to do, Mrs. Graham?

Cue, among other things [still today], the White House Correspondence Dinner?

Kay [at home]: How you could just lie to us all.
McNamara: Well...i-it's easy for the papers to characterize us as liars, we were just trying to push back...
Kay: Yeah, but you let it go on, and on, and----My son is home now and safe thank God. But you watched him go. You knew we couldn't win over there for years and years and years, and yet you let me...You let so many of our friends send our boys off...
McNamara: Kay, we were doing the best we could. It was domino theory, containment. And eventually, we felt that military pressure was the only thing that was gonna drive Ho Chi Minh to the table. Our decision-making process was...
Kay: "Flawed." It was flawed. That's what your study said.
McNamara: Yes.

...

Lawyer: They will argue it's a violation of the Espionage Act. That is a felony, Ben.
Ben: That's only-only if the documents we print could damage the United States.
Lawyer: There's a federal judge in New York who seems to think that they could.
Ben: Well, I've got six seasoned journalists in the next room who've been reporting on this war for the last ten years. And I'll lay odds that they have a better idea of what could damage the United States than some judge who is just now wading in this territory for the first time.

...

McNamara: Look, Kay, I know why The Times ran the story. But you need to understand, the study was for posterity. It was written for academics in the future and right now, we're still in the middle of the war. The papers can't be objective. I suppose the public has a right to know. But I would prefer that the study not be made widely available until it can be read with some perspective. You understand.
Kay: Mm.

...

McNamara: You know, I worked in Washington for ten years I've seen these people up close. Bobby and Lyndon, they were tough customers. But Nixon is different. He's got some real bad people around him. And if you publish, he'll get the very worst of them the Colsons, and the Ehrlichmans and he'll crush you.
Kay: I know, he's just awful, but I...
McNamara: He's a--Nixon's a son of a bitch! He hates you, he hates Ben. He's wanted to ruin the paper for years. And you will not get a second chance, Kay. The Richard Nixon I know will muster the full power of the presidency. And if there's a way to destroy your paper, by God, he'll find it!

...

Fritz: You're talking about exposing years of government secrets. I can't imagine they're gonna take that lightly. You could jeopardize the public offering. You could jeopardize our television stations. You know a felon can't hold a broadcast license.
Ben: You think I give two shits about the television stations?
Frtiz: You should, they make a hell of a lot more money than you do. And without that revenue, we'd be forced to sell. If the government wins and we're convicted, the Washington Post as we know it will cease to exist.
Ben: Well, if we live in...in a world where the government could tell us what we can and cannot print, then the Washington Post as we know it has already ceased to exist.

...

Art [on phone]: Hello, it's Art. Uh, Ben, there are concerns here that are frankly above your pay grade.
Ben: Well, there's a few above yours. Like fucking freedom of the press.
Art: Let's just be civil if we can.
Ben: Do you think Nixon is going to be civil? He is trying to censor the goddamn New York Times.
Art: Yes, The Times, not The Post.
Ben: It's the same damn thing! This is an historic fight. If they lose, we lose.... Due respect, we all have everything to lose if we don't publish. What will happen to the reputation of this paper? Everyone will find out we had the study. Hell, I bet half the town knows already. What will it look like if we sit on our asses?
Art: It'll look like we were prudent.
Ben: It will look like we were afraid. We will lose. The country will lose. Nixon wins. Nixon wins this one, and the next one. And all the ones after that because we were scared. Because the only way to assert the right to publish is to publish.

...

Kay [on phine]: Fritz, i-is Fritz-Fritz there? Fritz are you on?
Fritz: I'm here, Kay.
Kay: W-What do you think? W-What do you think I should do?
Fritz: I think... there are arguments on both sides. But I guess I wouldn't publish.
Kay [after groping to think it through]: Let's-Let's go. Let's-Let's do it. Let's-Let's-- Let's go, let's go, let's go. Let's-- Let's publish.

...

Fritz: You, you got half an hour. I'm uh, I'm not sure how much thought you put into this decision, but we still have time. The print deadline's not till midnight.
Kay: I know when the print deadline is.
Fritz: Look, I'm still, uh, learning how to do this, but everything I know about business tells me you're making a serious mistake here. One that will cost you and your paper dearly. And hurt every person gathered here, not to mention the hundreds of others who work for you.
Kay: I'm just trying to put my thoughts together.
Fritz: Kay, all I want is-is what is best for you and your business. But I just got off the phone with a couple of bankers, and they think it's possible, likely even, that a number of their institutional investors will pull out if you go ahead and publish, and if they pull out... Kay. You got a couple of hours. For your sake and for the sake of everyone of your employees, I hope you will reconsider.

...

Roger [the lawyer]: If you got the study from the same source, that would amount to collusion.
Bagdikian: Yeah, we could all be executed at dawn.
Roger: And we could be held in contempt of court. Which means Mr. Bradlee and Mrs. Graham could go to jail. Mr. Bagdikian, how likely is it that your source and The Times' source are the same person?
Bagdikian: It's likely.
Roger: How likely?
Bagdikian: Very. It's very likely.

...

Kay: You know, I just wanted to hold on to the company for you and Don and Willie and Stephen.
Daughter: You did. You have.
Kay: Well. You know that quote-- The quote, "A woman preaching is like a dog walking on its hind legs, it's not done well and you're surprised to see it's done at all." Samuel Johnson.
Daughter: Oh, Mummy. That's a bunch of nonsense.
Kay: No, but that's the way we all thought then. You know. I was never supposed to be in this job. When my father chose your dad to run the company, I thought it was the most natural thing in the world. I was so proud because, you know, Phil was so brilliant and he was so gifted and but I thought that was the way it was supposed to be. Everybody thought that way then.

...

Arthur: I disagreed with you earlier, but I thought it brave, but this? If we were to publish knowing this, it would just be irresponsible.
Fritz: Fritz, do you agree?
Fritz: Well, I don't particularly like the idea of Kay as a convicted felon. And then there's the issue of the prospectus. Based on the conversations I've had with my friends at Kravath, I believe a criminal indictment would qualify as a catastrophic event. And given the likelihood of indictment now... Kay, it could--
Kay: Yes, I...I understand. We uh, we have a responsibility to the company, to the- all the employees and to the long term health of the paper.
Fritz: Absolutely, Kay.
Kay: Yes. However, um... The prospectus also talks about the mission of the paper which is outstanding news collection and reporting, isn't that right? And it also says that the newspaper will be dedicated to the welfare of the nation and to the, uh...principles of a free press. So, one could argue that the bankers were put on notice.

...

Rehnquist [on phone]: Good morning, this is William Rehnquist from the office of legal counsel at Justice. Yes, sir. Mr. Bradlee, I have been advised by the Secretary of Defense that the material published in The Washington Post this morning contains the information relating to the national defense of the United States and bears a top secret classification. As such the publication of this information is directly prohibited by the Espionage Act, Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 793. As publication will cause irreparable injury to the defense interests of the United States, I respectfully request that you publish no further information of this character. And advise me that you have made arrangements for the return of these documents to the Department of Defense.
Ben: Well, thank you for the call, Mr. Rehnquist. But I'm sure you understand, I must respectfully decline.

...

Kay: What's next?
Fritz: We're going to court. Today. If we get a ruling in our favor or The Times does, we'll be at the Supreme Court sometime next week.

And let's just say that the ideological makeup of the court back then was rather different.

Supreme Court Justice: Would The Post have published military plans for D-Day if they'd had them in advance?
Roger: Well, I don't think there's any comparison between a pending invasion of Europe and a historical survey of American involvement in the Vietnam war.

...

Cronkite [on TV]: I asked him what he considers the most important revelations to date from the Pentagon documents.
Daniel: I think the lesson is the people of this country can't afford to let the President run the country by himself-- even foreign affairs any more than domestic affairs without the help of Congress. I was struck in fact by President Johnson's reaction to these revelations as close to treason. Because it reflected to me the sense that what was damaging to the reputation of a particular administration---a particular individual was, in itself, treason which is very close to saying, "I am The State."

...

Meg [to the Post staff]: Listen up, everybody, listen up. Uh, Justice Black's opinion. "The Founding Fathers gave the free press the protection it must have to fulfill its essential role in our democracy. The press was to serve the governed, not the governors."

...

Kay: Oh, thank God, the court ruling was very clear.
Ben: Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm sure Nixon will fall right in line.
Kay: Good. Because you know I don't think I could ever live through something like this again.

...

Nixon [on the phone or from the tapes]: I want it clearly understood that from now on, never no reporter from The Washington Post is ever to be in The White House. Is that clear?
Aide: Absolutely.
Nixon: Never, never in The White House. No church service. Nothing with Mrs. Nixon does, you tell Connie. Don't tell Mrs. Nixon 'cause she'll approve it. No reporter from The Washington Post is ever to be in The White House again. And no photographer either. No photographer, is that clear? None ever to be in. That is a total order. And if necessary, I'll fire you. You understand?
Aide: I do understand.
Nixon: Okay. All right. Good.

Cue Frank Wills.

D.C. Police, 2nd Precinct.
Wills: Yes, hello, this is Frank Wills. I think we might have a burglary in progress at the Watergate.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Fashion.

The clothes that we wear. Some [like me] couldn't possibly care less about the threads on our backs. I actually wear the same thing day after day after day. It's strictly functional. End of story. The only thing that changes is the seasons. For others though "fashion" is more akin to a calling. Among other things, they worship and adore those "designers" who make the outfits they wear. And, back in the early 1950s, in and around London, "movie stars, heiresses, socialites, debutantes and dames" all flocked to "the distinct style of the House Of Woodcock".

And Reynolds Woodcock was the owner. With him, women would come and go as he went about the business of dressing them in "the height of fashion".

Until that day when one woman in particular...

He is much older than her. A distinguished gentleman. And she is young and pretty. He is nearer to the top rung in the class struggle, while she is "just a waitress". Not all that uncommon in films of this sort.

And that is basically what this is all about. A man goes about the task of diligently sustaining the fixture that he has become. Until "she" comes along and changes everything. In other words, his "carefully tailored life is disrupted by love."

So, here, everything revolves around how you react to these two characters. And the extent to which their evolving relationship comes to intrigues you. Their romance is said to be "suspenseful". Which, for me, revolved around the extent to which Alma either is or is not being "calculating". She is clearly meant to meld herself entirely into his world. Will she? In other words, in being calculating she will likely be manipulating as well. Then it all comes down to her intentions. And [of course] to the way things play out. There are parts of any relationship of this sort that can seem glorious. But then the day to day interactions bring out other parts considerably less so.

And yet as with so many films of this sort that will only be construed from a point of view. Thus here --- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5776858/re ... ef_=tt_urv --- you come across reactions that could not possibly be more completely at odds. They are all watching the same film, of course, but only, one by one, from within the parameters of a "sense of reality" that they have concocted "inside their head".

How then to pin down the implications of that? The philosophical significance perhaps?

Truth be told, I had once myself been rather contemptuous of those "slaves to fashion". Now, however, such value judgments have become considerably more muddled. For the better and for the worse.

IMDb

Director Paul Thomas Anderson got the initial idea for the film while he was sick in bed one day. His wife, Maya Rudolph, was tending to him and gave him a look that made him realize that she had not looked at him with such tenderness and love in a long time.

In preparation for the film, Daniel Day-Lewis watched archival footage of 1940s and 1950s fashion shows, studied famous designers, consulted with the curator of fashion and textiles at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, and apprenticed under Marc Happel, head of the costume department at the New York City Ballet. He also learned how to sew, and he practiced on his wife Rebecca Miller, trying to recreate a Balenciaga sheath dress that was inspired by a school uniform.

Daniel Day-Lewis and Lesley Manville became real-life friends for six months prior to filming began in order to establish the close relationship between Cyril and Reynolds.

Many of the staff of the Woodcock couture house, as well as other bit parts, are played not by professional actors but by real seamstresses or persons connected with the fashion world.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5776858/tr ... tt_trv_trv
trailer: https://youtu.be/xNsiQMeSvMk

Written and directed by Paul Thomas Anderson

Alma: Reynolds has made my dreams come true. And I have given him what he desires most in return.
Doctor [off camera]: And what's that?
Alma: Every piece of me.
Doctor: He's a very demanding man, isn't he? Must be quite a challenge to be with him.
Alma: Yes. Maybe he is the most demanding man.

...

Johanna: Try these. Reynolds? They're delicious.
Reynolds: Remember I told you, Johanna? No more sludgy things.
Johanna: I didnt know that. You may have told it to someone else.

...

Johanna: Where have you gone, Reynolds? There's nothing I can say...to get your attention aimed back at me is there?
Reynolds: I cannot begin my day with a confrontation. Please? I'm delivering the dress today and I can't take up space with a confrontation. I simply don't have time for confrontations.

...

Henrietta [a countess of her new dress]: Yes?
Reynolds: Let's take it for a walk.

...

Cyril: Well, what do you want to do about Johanna? I mean, she's lovely, but the time has come. And she's getting fat sitting around waiting for you to fall in love with her again. I'll give her the October dress. That's all right?
[Reynolds barely nods]

...

Reynolds: Do you have a photograph of your mother?
Alma: Yes.
Reynolds: Will you let me see it?
Alma: Not here, at home.
Reynolds: Carry it with you. Always carry her with you.
Reynolds [tapping his suit jacket]: She's here in the canvas.
Alma: What do you mean?
Reynolds: Hm. You can sew almost anything into the canvas of a coat. Secrets. Coins. Words, little messages. When I was a boy, I started to hide things in the linings of the garments. Things that only I knew were there. And over my breast, I have a lock of my mother's hair. To keep her close to me always. She's quite a remarkable woman. She taught me my trade. So, I try to never be without her.

...

Alma: If you want to have a staring contest with me, you will lose.
Reynolds: Hm.
Alma: You are a very handsome man. You must be around many beautiful women.
Reynolds: Yes.
Alma: Why are you not married?
Reynolds: I make dresses.
Alma: You cannot be married when you make dresses?
Reynolds: I'm certain I was never meant to marry. I'm a confirmed bachelor. I'm incurable...Marriage would make me deceitful, and I don't ever want that.
Alma: You sound so sure about things.
Alma: I think you are only acting strong.
Reynolds: No, I am strong.
Alma: For who? Not for me, I hope.
Reynolds: I think it's the expectations and assumptions of others that cause heartache.

...

Reynolds [taking her measurements]: You have no breasts.
Alma: Yes, I know. I'm sorry.
Reynolds: No, no, you're perfect. My job to give you some. If I choose to.

...

Cyril: You have the ideal shape.
Alma: I do?
Cyril: Hm. He likes a little belly.

...

Reynolds: I feel as if I've been looking for you for a very long time.
Alma: You found me.
[and then after a pause]
Alma: Whatever you do...do it carefully.

...

Alma [voiceover]: But in his work, I've become perfect. And I feel just right. Maybe that's how all women feel in his clothes.

...

Alma [to the doctor off camera]: Sometimes, we wake up at four in the morning...after we'd gone to bed at midnight. And then he's ready to start again. And I can stand endlessly. No one can stand as long as I can.

...

Cyril: Alma, this fabric is adored by the women who wear our design. It's perfect for this dress.
Reynolds: Cyril is right. Cyril is always right. It's not because the fabric is adored by the clients that Cyril is right. It's right because it's right. Because it's beautiful. Maybe one day you will change your taste, Alma.
Alma: Maybe not.
Reynolds: Maybe you have no taste.
Alma: Maybe I like my own taste.
Reynolds: Yeah, it's just enough to get you into trouble.
Alma: Perhaps I'm looking for trouble.
Reynolds [abruptly]: Stop!

...

Reynolds: Please, don't move so much, Alma.
Alma: I'm buttering my toast. I'm not moving too much.
Reynolds: Well, it's too much. It's a distraction. It's very distracting.
Alma: Maybe you pay too much attention to it.
Reynolds: It's hard to ignore. It's as if you just rode a horse across the room. It's too much movement. It's entirely too much movement at breakfast.

...

Cyril: Perhaps you should take your breakfast after him. Or in your room?
Alma: I think he's being too fussy.
Cyril: His routine when he's in it is best not shaken. This is a quiet time. Not to be misused. If breakfast isn't right, it's very hard for him to recover for the rest of the day.
Alma: I didn't know that.
Cyril: No, of course you didn't. But you do now.

...

Alma [to the doctor off camera]: You see, when you...when you love your work...and you can give like he does you need to come down again. And then, he's...he's a baby, he's...like a spoiled little baby. When he's like this, he's...very tender. Open.
Doctor: How long would these episodes last?
Alma: Only a few days and then he's well again.

...

Alma: What if the mushrooms are yellow underneath and white on top?
Housekeeper: The poisoned ones have gills. Look at the book in the kitchen.

...

Reynolds: I would like the dress back.
Woman: Ms. Rose is sleeping.
Reynolds: She's sleeping. In the dress?
Woman: Well, yes.
Reynolds: Go and take the dress off her and bring it to me right away.
Woman: I don't think so.
Reynolds [angrily]: Take the fucking dress off Barbara and bring it to me or I'll do it myself!

...

Alma [to the woman]: It's no business of ours what Mrs. Rose decides to do with her life. But she can no longer behave like this in a dress by the House of Woodcock!

...

Cyril: I would advise against dinner this, Alma.
Alma: Why?
Cyril: Because he doesn't like surprises.
Alma: He does.
Cyril: Well, he won't like this one.
Alma: I'm trying to surprise him. And love him the way that I want to.
Cyril: Well, if you're looking for something kind to do perhaps, you could think of something else. No, I really must advise against this, Alma. I don't think there could be a more inappropriate time to try something new.
Alma: This is what I want to do. And I think it will be very nice. I respect to your advice, Cyril, but I have to know him in my own way. And this is what I want to do for him.

...

Alma: Do you like it?
Reynolds: I do.
Alma: No, you don't. You don't like it at all. Usually, you always tell me what you think.
Reynolds: What is this?
Alma: You're lying.
Reynolds: As I think you know, Alma, I prefer my asparagus with oil and salt. And knowing this, you've prepared the asparagus with butter. Now, I can imagine in certain circumstances being able to pretend that I like it made this way. Right now, I'm just admiring my own gallantry for eating it the way you've prepared it.
Alma [more to herself]: I don't know what I'm doing here. I...I don't know what I'm doing here. I'm just waiting around like a idiot for you.
Reynolds: This was an ambush, Alma. To what purpose?
Alma: This is not...I know it's not going as I expected, I...I didn't mean these things to come out. I'm sorry, but it was meant to be nice.
Reynolds: Well, what did you expect?
Alma: I wanted time with you. I wanted to have you to myself.
Reynolds: You have me all the time.
Alma: No!
Reynolds: What are you talking about?
Alma: I don't! I...there...there are always people around. And if not, then there's something between us.
Reynolds:Something between us? What?
Alma: Some...
Reynolds: What?
Alma: Distance!

...

Reynolds: What happened to make you behave like this? Is it because you think I don't need you?
Alma: Yes.
Reynolds: I don't.
Alma: Why, that's very predictable of you. Don't act so tough. I know you are not.
Reynolds: Yeah, that's right, that's right. If I don't protect myself, somebody will come in the middle of the night and take over my corner of the room and ask me about their fucking asparagus!
Alma: Don't be a bully. You're being a bully.
Reynolds: There are other things I'd like to do with my time. It's my time. My time!
Alma [again more to herself]: I have no idea what I'm doing here in your time. What am I doing here? I'm standing around like an idiot waiting for you.
Reynolds: Waiting for what?
Alma: Waiting for you.
Reynolds: Waiting for what?
Alma: Waiting for you to get rid of me. So, tell me. So I don't stand around like a fucking fool.

...

Alma: No, it is not about asparagus.
Reynolds: What the hell is it about? Are you a special agent sent here to ruin my evening and possibly my entire life?
Alma: Why are you so rude to me? Why are you talking to me like this?
Reynolds: Is this my house? This is my house, isn't it?
Alma: Yes, this is your house.
Reynolds: Is this my house? Or did somebody drop me on foreign soil behind enemy lines. Alma: You brought me here. I'm surrounded on all sides. It's you who brought me here.
Reynolds: When the hell did this happen? Who are you? Do you have a gun? You're here to kill me? Hm, do you have a gun?
Alma: Stop it!
Alma: Stop being a child.
Alma: Stop playing this game.
Reynolds: I'm not playing a game. What game am I playing? What game? What precisely is the nature of my game? You tell me.
Alma: Oh, this whole...All your rules and your walls and your doors and your people and your money and all this clothes and everything! This! This! This game! Everything here! The whole pfff! Nothing is normal or natural or...Everything is a game!!
Reynolds: If it's my life that you're describing it's entirely up to you whether you choose to share it or not. If you don't wish to share that life as apparently it's so disagreeable to you in every respect, why don't you just fuck off to back where you came from?

...

Cyril: Would you like me to ask Alma to leave?
Reynolds: No, why?
Cyril: Well, if you're going to make her a ghost go ahead and do it, but please don't let her sit around waiting for you. I'm very fond of her.
Reynolds: Oh, you're very fond of her, are you? Well, in that case...
Cyril: No, don't turn it on me. I don't want your cloud on my head.
Reynolds: Oh, shut up, Cyril.
Cyril: No, you can shut right up. Don't pick a fight with me. You certainly won't come out alive. I'll go right through you and it'd be you who ends up on the floor. Understood?

...

Reynolds [after having been poisoned?]: I'm scared, Alma.
Alma: Yes, of course you are.
Reynolds: Do you think I'll ever get better?
Alma: Of course. I'll take care of you.

...

Cyril: The doctor's here.
Alma: What doctor?
Cyril: The doctor I sent for.
Alma: Oh, no, but he's...
Cyril: He needs to be examined.
Alma: No.
Cyril: Yes.
Alma: No, he's not dying.
Cyril: He needs to be examined.
Alma: He's sleeping now, that's what he needs.
Cyril: Let me be unambiguous. Come out of the room and downstairs immediately.

...

Doctor: Hello, Mr. Woodcock. May I examine you?
Reynolds: Keep your hands off me.
Doctor: Well, I would just like to take your temperature.
Reynolds: Alma? There's a strange boy in the room, can you get him out, please?
Doctor: I admit, I do look young...
Reynolds: Fuck off.
Cyril: Reynolds, please, just let him examine you.
Alma: I think this is clear, hm? He wants you to fuck off.

...

Reynolds [the next morning]: I love you, Alma. I don't ever want to be without you.
Alma: I love you.
Reynolds: I have things I want to do. I thought my days were unlimited. The mistakes I've made...I've made again. They can no longer be ignored. There are things nagging at me. Things that now must be done. Things I simply cannot do without you. To keep my sour heart from choking. To break a curse. A house that doesn't change is a dead house. Alma, will you marry me? Will you marry me? What the bloody hell are you thinking about? Will you marry me? No?
[Alma says nothing at first but there is a smile on her face]
Alma: Yes. Will you marry me?
Reynolds: Yes, I will.

...

Lady Baltimore [To Reynolds]: Your wife has got that gorgeous glow you get with a first marriage. It seems my godson's rather enjoying that glow as well.

...

Alma: It's a stupid game anyway.
Reynolds: Well, maybe it seems stupid to you now as you're currently losing, but I dare say, if you were victorious, I'm confident that you'd see it in a different light. Now, they need your chair for my next opponent. Next.
Reynolds [to Alma]: What? What are you so cranky about?
Alma [walking away in a huff]: Have fun with your next opponent.
Reynolds: Well, I-I think I will. A lot more than I did with you.

...

Lady Baltimore [after Alma is gone]: Gosh, she's really very rude, isn't she? My heart breaks for you.
Reynolds: Oh, really?
Lady Baltimore: Being married to a toddler. I don't mean to be racist, but, I mean...Is there some sort of custom at this time of the night in her country where...I mean, what's she doing?Reynolds: What's your point?
Lady Baltimore: I don't know...She's stealing things or attacking people, I mean.

...

Alma: I want to go dancing.
Reynolds [absently]: When?
Alma: Right now.
Reynolds: You're joking.
Alma: No, I'm not. It's New Year's Eve.
Reynolds: Well, I'm not going dancing.
Alma: There's a party at the Devonshire Hall to celebrate the New Year. And I want to go. We need to go dancing. So, what are you going to do about it?
Reynolds: I'm going to stay right here and I'm going to work.

...

Reynolds: Where has Henrietta Harding been?
Cyril: She's been to another house.
Reynolds: Which one? Why didn't you tell me?
Cyril: Because I didn't want to.
Reynolds: Is there something that I'm unaware of? Because as far as I can remember, all I have done is to dress her beautifully.
Cyril: I don't think that matters to some people. I think they want what is fashionable and chic.
Reynolds: Chic? Oh, don't you start using that filthy little word. Chic? Whoever invented that ought to be spanked in public. I don't-I don't even know what that word means. What is that word? Fucking chic? They should be hung, drawn and quartered. Fucking chic.
Cyril: It shouldn't concern you.
Reynolds: It does concern me. It concerns me very much, Cyril because it's hurt my feelings. It's hurt my feelings.
Cyril: So, what's all this moaning about?
Reynolds: I am not moaning. I do not like to be turned away from.
Cyril [calmly]: Nobody does. But I don't want to hear it because it hurts my ears.

...

Reynolds: I've made a terrible mistake in my life, Cyril. I've made a- I made a terrible mistake. I need you to help me.
Cyril: What do you want me to do?
Reynolds [as Alma enters the room]: I can't work. I can't...concentrate. I have no confidence. She does not fit in this house. We built this house. The two of us. Now she's turning the whole bloody place upside down. She's turning me inside-out. She's turning you and me against each other. Her arrival has cast a very long shadow, Cyril.
Alma [from behind him]: Mrs. Vaughan is satisfied with the dress.
Reynolds [angrily]: No one gives a tinker's fucking curse about Mrs. Vaughan's satisfaction!
Cyril [looking past Reynolds]: Thank you Alma.
Alma [calmly]: Not at all.
[she turns and walk out of the room]
Reynolds: What a model of politeness you two are. There is an air of quiet death in this house. And I do not like the way it smells.

...

Alma [to Reynolds who is chewing on her poisoned omelot]: I want you flat on your back... helpless... tender... open...with only me to help. And then I want you strong again. You're not going to die. You might wish you're going to die, but you're not going to. You need to settle down a little.
Reynolds: Kiss me, my girl, before I'm sick.

...

Reynolds [now very sick again]: I think perhaps you should telephone that boy doctor of yours, just in case.
Alma: You don't trust me?
Reynolds: No, I do trust you, it's just...
Alma: If you wish. But I will make you well again. I will.
Reynolds: I love you.
Alma: I love you too.

...

Alma [to the doctor]: If he didn't wake up from this, if he wasn't here tomorrow...no matter. For I know he'd be waiting for me in the afterlife...or some safe celestial place. In this life... and the next.. and the next one after. And for whatever there is on the road that follows from here. It would only require my patience to get to him again. You see to be in love with him makes life no great mystery....Someimes I jump ahead in our life together. And I see a time near the end. I can predict the future and everything has settled. And all our lovers and children and friends come back...and are welcome. And we have large gatherings where everyone is laughing and playing games.

...

Alma: I am older and I see things differently. And I finally understand you. And I take care of your dresses. Keeping them from dust and ghosts and time.
Reynolds: Yes, but right now, we're here.
Alma: Yes, of course we are.
Reynolds: And I'm getting hungry.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

You're only young once.

So, you either make the most of it or you don't. On the other hand, making the most of it often revolves around actual options available. You may want something, you may want someone...but are they within reach?

And this may well get all the trickier when you are leaning more toward the gay end of the sexual spectrum. There just aren't as many opportunities around when only a small percentage of the population is likely to be willing to make the most of it with you.

Unless, of course, serendipitiously, someone just falls right into your lap.

Unless, of course, you are bi-sexual. Then the options can increase rather dramatically. Here you're not entirely certain who is what.

But then there's the circumstances in which the most of it is being made. After all, there are still any number of places where homosexuality is very much frowned upon. And, in some locations, it can even be dangerous.

Here the year is 1983, the place, a villa nestled in a rural community in Northern Italy. Also, the main characters are generally educated, sophisticated and really, really tolerant. And [of course] drop dead gorgeous.

So, here we go again: another "coming of age" saga in which you either will or will not sink down empathetically into the relationship unfolding. A "first love" narrative in which that yawning gap between an educated mind and an uneducated heart make for all manner of yearning, perplexity and, at times, uncertainty.

That and the perfect ending.

Later.

IMDb

Timothée Chalamet learned to speak Italian and play the classical piano pieces used in the film.

Despite various sexual scenes in the film, Armie Hammer stated in an interview that the most uncomfortable he ever felt during filming was when he was filming the dance scenes.

The film is dedicated to actor Bill Paxton, who died in February 2017. Brian Swardson, the husband of one of the film's producers, Peter Spears, was Bill Paxton's best friend and agent. He is also the agent for Timothée Chalamet. Paxton visited the set in Italy and became friends with director Luca Guadagnino. Guadagnino decided to honor Paxton by dedicating the film to him.

Despite considering casting gay actors, Luca Guadagnino cast what he felt were the best actors for role and ended up with two straight actors in the lead roles.

Regarding the peach scene, director Luca Guadagnino went to Timothée Chalamet and told him that he had tried masturbating with a peach himself and found that it was indeed possible to do so. Therefore, he thought they should do the scene. Chalamet responded that he had also tried it and agreed to do the scene.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5726616/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Me_b ... Name_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/Z9AYPxH5NTM

Call Me By Your Name [2017]

Elio [to Oliver asleep from exhaustion]: My room is now your room. I'll be next door. We have to share the bathroom. It's my only way out.

...

Oliver: So, what does one do around here?
Elio: Wait for the summer to end.
Oliver: Yeah? What do you do in the winter? Wait for summer to come?

...

Oliver: Thought you were Jewish.
Elio: Well, we are Jewish, but also American, Italian, French. Somewhat atypical combination. Besides my family, you're probably the only other Jew to set foot in this town.
Oliver: I'm from a small town in New England. I know what it's like to be the odd Jew out.

...

Professor [Elio's father]: The origin of our Italian albicocca is al-barquq. It's amazing that today in Israel and many Arab countries, the fruit's referred to by a totally different name, mismish.
Oliver: I may have to disagree with you there, Professor. I'm gonna talk etymology, so just bear with me a second. You're right in the case that most Latin words do find their origins in Greek words. However, in the case of "apricot," it's a little bit more of a complicated journey.
Professor: How so?
Oliver: Well, here, the Greek actually takes over from the Latin. Latin word being praecoquum or precoquere. So it's, "precook" or "pre-ripen," as you know. To be precocious or premature. And the Byzantines, to go on, then borrowed praecox, which became prekokkia, which then became berikokki, which is how the Arabs got al-barquq. That's courtesy of Philology 101.

...

Elio: Don't you think he's impolite when he says, "Later"? Arrogant.
Father: I don't think he's arrogant.
Elio: Just watch. This is how he'll say good-bye to us when the time comes. With his... "Later."
Mother: Meanwhile, we'll have to put up with him for six long weeks. Won't we, darling?
Father: I think he's shy. You'll grow to like him.
Elio: What if I grow to hate him?

...

Oliver: That sounds different. Did you change it?
Elio: Well, I changed it a little bit.
Oliver: Why?
Elio: I just played it the way Liszt would have played it if he'd altered Bach's version.
Oliver: Play that again.
Elio: Play what again?
Oliver: The thing you played outside on the guitar.
Elio: You want me to play the thing I played outside?
Elio [playing the piano]: Of course.
Oliver: I can't believe you changed it again.
Elio: I changed it a little bit.
Oliver: Yeah. Why?
Elio: I just played it the way Busoni would've played it if he'd altered Liszt's version.
Oliver: And what is wrong with Bach the way Bach would've played...
Elio: Bach never wrote it for the guitar. In fact, we're not even sure Bach wrote it at all.

...

Oliver: Listen to this drivel. Tell me what you think. "For the early Greeks, Heidegger contends, this underlying hiddenness is constitutive of the way beings are, not only in relation to themselves but also in relation to other entities generally. In other words, they do not construe hiddenness merely or primarily in terms of entities' relations to human beings." Does that make any sense to you? Doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think it makes any sense to your dad, either.
Elio: Maybe it did when you wrote it.
Oliver: That might be the kindest thing anybody has said to me in months.

...

Elio [aloud to himself holding one of Oliver's book]: The Cosmic Fragments by Heraclitus.
[he finds something that Oliver had written]
Oliver: "The meaning of the river flowing is not that all things are changing so that we cannot encounter them twice, but that some things stay the same only by changing."

...

Elio: My mom's been reading this 16th-century French romance. She read some of it to my dad and I the day the lights went out.
Oliver: Yeah, about the knight that doesn't know whether to speak or die?
Elio: Right.
Oliver: So, does he or doesn't he?
Elio: "Better to speak," she said. But she's on her guard. She senses a trap somewhere.
Oliver: So, does he speak?
Elio: No. He fudges.
Oliver: It figures. He's French.

...

Oliver: Is there anything you don't know?
Elio: I know nothing, Oliver.
Oliver: Well, you seem to know more than anybody else around here.
Elio: Well, if you only knew how little I know about the things that matter.
Oliver: What things that matter?
Elio: You know what things.
Oliver: Why are you telling me this?
Elio: 'Cause I thought you should know.
Oliver: Because you thought I should know?
Elio: 'Cause I wanted you to know?
Oliver: Because I wanted you to know. Because I wanted you to know. 'Cause I wanted you to know.
Elio: Because there's no one else I can say this to but you.
Oliver: Are you saying what I think you're saying?
[Elio nods]

...

Elio: Shouldn't have said anything.
Oliver: Just pretend you never did.
Elio: Does that mean we're on speaking terms but not really?
Oliver: It means we can't talk about those kinds of things. Okay? We just can't.

...

Elio: So you won't, I guess.
Oliver: You really that afraid of what I think? You're making things very difficult for me.

...

Elio: I love this, Oliver.
Oliver: What?
Elio: Everything.
Oliver: Us, you mean?
[they begin to touch and kiss each other...but Oliver pulls away]
Oliver: Better now?
[Elio rolls onto him, kissing him more passionaitely]
Oliver: No, no, no. We should go.
Elio: Why?
Oliver: I know myself. Okay? And we've been good. We haven't done anything to be ashamed of, and that's a good thing. I wanna be good. Okay?
[Elio reaches over and grabs him at the crotch]
Elio: Am I offending you?
Oliver [pulling his hand away]: Just don't.

...

Mother: You like him, don't you? Oliver?
Elio: Everyone likes Oliver.
Mother: I think he likes you too. More than you do.
Mother: No, he told me.
Elio: When did he say that?
Mother: A while ago.

...

Elio [aloud to himself as Oliver closes the door between them]: Traitor....traitor.

...

Marzia: Do you really read a lot? I love reading too, but I don't tell anyone.
Elio: Why not?
Marzia: I don't know. I think people who read are kind of secretive. They hide who they really are.
Elio: Do you hide who you really are?
Marzia: No, not with you.
Elio: Not with me?
Marzia: Well, maybe a bit.
Elio: What do you mean?
Marzia: You know exactly what I mean.
Elio: Why do you say that?
Marzia: Why? Because I think you're going to hurt me, and I don't want to be hurt.

...

Father: No misbehaving tonight. No...No laughing. When I tell you to play, you'll play. You're too old not to accept people for who they are. What's wrong with them?
Elio: What's wrong with them?
Father: You call them Sonny and Cher behind their backs.
Elio: That's what Mom calls them...
Father: Then you accept gifts from them. The only person that reflects badly on is you. Is it because they're gay or because they're ridiculous?

...

Oliver [about to have sex with Elio for the first time]: Off, off, off, off, off. Just pull it. Or I'll pull it.
[afterward they lay embracing]
Oliver: Call me by your name, and I'll call you by mine.
Elio: Elio.
Oliver: Oliver.
Elio: Elio.
Oliver: Oliver.

...

Elio [to Oliver]: You wore that shirt the first day you were here. Will you give it to me when you go?

...

Oliver: Are you gonna hold what happened last night against me?
Elio: No.

...

Oliver: Elio. Come here. Take your trunks off.
[Oliver bends down and fellates him]
Oliver: Well, that's promising. You're hard again. Good.
[then he closes the door between them]

...

Oliver: You're not sick of me yet?
Elio: No, I just...just wanted to be with you. I'll...I'm gonna...I'll go.
Oliver: Do you know how happy I am that we slept together?
Elio: I don't know.
Oliver: Of course, you don't know. I don't want you to regret anything. And I hate the thought that maybe I may have messed you up or...I don't want either of us to pay for this, one way or another.
Elio: No, I... It's not like I'm gonna tell anyone. You're not gonna be, like, getting in trouble.
Oliver: That's not what I'm talking about.

...

Oliver: What did you do?
Elio: Nothing.
Oliver [holding the "used" peach]: No? Oh, I see. You've moved on to the plant kingdom already.

...

Elio: God, we wasted so many days. Why didn't you give me a sign?
Oliver: I did. I did.
Elio: You didn't give me a sign. When?
Oliver: You remember when we were playing volleyball and I touched you? Just to show you that I liked you? And the way you reacted made me feel like I'd molested you.
Elio: I'm sorry. I'm sorry...

...

Father: You two had a nice friendship. You're too smart not to know how rare, how special what you two had was.
Elio: Oliver was Oliver.
Father [more to himself]: Because it was him. Because it was me.
Elio: Oliver may be very intelligent but...
Father: He was more than intelligent. What you two had, had everything and nothing to do with intelligence.

...

Father [to Elio]: Look, you had a beautiful friendship. Maybe more than a friendship. And I envy you. In my place, most parents would hope the whole thing goes away. Pray their sons land on their feet, but I am not such a parent. We rip out so much of ourselves to be cured of things faster, that we go bankrupt by the age of 30. And have less to offer, each time we start with someone new. But to make yourself feel nothing so as not to feel anything. What a waste.

...

Father: I may have come close but I never had what you two have. Something always held me back or stood in the way. How you live your life is your business. Just remember, our hearts and our bodies are given to us only once, and before you know it, your heart's worn out. And as for your body, there comes a point when no one looks at it much less wants to come near it. Right now, there's sorrow, pain. Don't kill it, and with it, the joy you felt.
Elio: Does Mom know?
Father: I don't think she does.

...

Oliver [on the phone from America]: I have some news.
Elio: News? What, you're getting married? I suppose.
Oliver: I might be getting married next spring, yeah.
Elio: You never said anything.
Oliver: Been off and on for three years.
Elio: That's wonderful news.
Oliver: Do you mind?
[before he can answer his parents are on the line]

...

Elio [on the phone]: They know about us.
Oliver: I figured.
Elio: How?
Oliver: Well, from the way your dad spoke to me. He made me feel like I was a part of the family. Almost like a son-in-law. You're so lucky. My father would have carted me off to a correctional facility.
Elio: Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio. Elio.
Oliver: Oliver. I remember everything.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

..an ex friend of mine, after we finished watching Area 51, said that she will discuss the film with her fellow African friends and not I, because I didn't get the film/the message.. how laughable! as the message was very clear to all who watched it.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

--MagsJ

MagsJ
The Londonist

Posts: 17749
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1

### Re: philosophy in film

Just imagine it...

You are said to be the richest private citizen in the world. But, when your 16 year old grandson is kidnapped, you refuse to pay the ransom. Why? Because, you argue, if you pay it, it will only encourage others to kidnap yet more members of your family.

And this is basically the same frame of mind that whole nations will embrace when citizens are taken by one or another group of revolutionaries or extremists. Sure, the victims might be killed, but it is deemed to be the lesser of two evils. And this all unfolded in the early 1970s in Europe. Lots and lots of radical groups around then.

Or, instead, is the grandfather basically just a cheap bastard ever intent on never parting with his money. And, in this case, 17 million dollars of it.

Here it's easier to imagine a context of this sort because it actually happened. J. Paul Getty's grandson Paul was in fact kidnapped in Rome in 1973. Getty refused to pay.

Actually, however, it was considerably more complicated than that. And that's where Fletcher Chace comes in. He is sent by Getty to Rome to bring his grandson back. And here is where the narrative truly begins to twist and turn. Every 10 minutes into the film it's a different situation.

And then there's this part:

Fletcher to Gail: Did Paul ever talk to you about having himself kidnapped?

And, so, here we are, following a reenactment of the drama in a film.

But: From the perspective of a loving, devoted mother who has little or no patience with all of this hypothetical "what if" speculation. She just wants her son back. On the other hand, she really has no choice but to intertwine her own wants and needs into the conflicting agendas of all the others.

So, another tug of war between love and money is set into motion. And, in this day and age, nothing is ever really set in stone.

IMDb

Christopher Plummer claimed he was prepared to replace Kevin Spacey as J. Paul Getty on short notice because he had previously been considered for the role and had read the script. He had less than two weeks to memorize his lines, but did have the advantage of having met Getty in London at a couple of his parties during the 60s.

After Kevin Spacey was replaced by Christopher Plummer, director Ridley Scott decided not to show Plummer any footage of Spacey in character, or even tell him how Spacey played the scenes. When finished, Scott found both performances to be quite different and equally effective in their own particular styles.

Jean Paul Getty was eighty years old when his grandson was kidnapped. Kevin Spacey, at age 58, had to be prosthetically aged to resemble Getty, whereas his replacement Christopher Plummer, at age 88, needed no special makeup applications.

Michelle Williams said that she would have felt unable to promote the film if Kevin Spacey had stayed in it because she felt so much affinity for the people that he had hurt.

And then this:

Michelle Williams was paid "over 1,000 times less" than Mark Wahlberg for the re-shoots. Wahlberg was paid $1.5 million, while Williams received just$1,000 for the week's work. Many of initial reports neglect to mention that Williams herself requested to go without pay entirely, or that Wahlberg shot many more scenes with Plummer than she did. After news of the discrepancy came to light, Wahlberg donated his entire re-shoot salary to the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund in Williams' name. His agency, WME (which is also Williams' agency), donated an additional $500,000. trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5294550/tr ... tt_trv_trv at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_M ... _the_World trailer: https://youtu.be/KXHrCBkIxQQ All the Money in the World [2017] Directed by Ridley Scott Prostitute [out on the street late at night]: What's your name? Paul: Paolo. Prostitute: The street is no place for a boy like you. Don't make your poor mama worry. Go home. Paul: I can take care of myself. ... Nancy: Sorry, I should have knocked before coming in. Getty [absorbed in a stock market ticker tape]: To the point, Nancy. The market's open. Nancy: He's been kidnapped. Paul. Little Paul, your grandson, in Rome. They need to speak with you right now. The Italian police, the boy's mother, they're on the phone. Getty: Well, I'm not available. ... Paul [voiceover]: To be a Getty is an extraordinary thing. I know that because my grandpa told me so. You see, my grandpa wasn't just the richest man in the world. He was the richest man in the history of the world. My grandpa was the one who brought the oil out of the Saudi desert. Everybody knew it was there. They just thought it couldn't be done. But Grandpa found a way. He made a deal with the Bedouin tribes. But there was so much oil, there was no ship big enough to carry it all. So, my grandfather invented one. He called it the supertanker. ... Playboy interviewer [1965]: It's been reported that you are the first man in history with a fortune in excess of a billion dollars. Getty: l have no idea. But if you can count your money, you're not a billionaire. ... Paul [voiceover]: I'm telling you this so you can understand the things you're about to see. And maybe you can forgive us. It's like we're from another planet where the force of gravity is so strong it bends the light. We look like you. But we're not like you. Really, really, really rich. Paul [voiceover]: But we were...once. ... Cinquanta [on the phone]: Signora, we have your son. Gail [Paul's mother]: God. Thank you. Is he all right? Cinquanta: No, signora, we are rapitori, kidnappers, and have him captive. Gail [after a pause]: Is this some kind of joke? Cinquanta: No, no. Is no joke, signora. He's okay. He's not harmed. We will send proof in the coming days. Gail: Who are you? Cinquanta: I am Cinquanta. Paul is safe. But it will require$17 million to release him. Go to the police if you like. It makes no difference.
Gail: I don't have any money.
Cinquanta: Get it from your father-in-law. He has all the money in the world.

...

Getty [10 years earlier to his grandson]: People say "priceless" when what they really mean is that something is invaluable. That Minotaur that you're holding, for instance. Some experts have told me that this dates from 460 BC. I'm sure those fuckers at the Met would kill to get their greasy paws on it. Would you care to guess how much I paid for it?
Gail: I couldn't possibly.
Getty: $11.23. I picked it up at the black market in Heraklion. Some old cripple wanted to ask$19 for it. It took me one hour to bring him down to his bottom line. Yet, today, at auction, | hazard it could bring $1.2 million. You see? Everything has a price. The great struggle in life is coming to grips with what that price is. ... Getty: I'm firing Howard Larkin. And I'm making you executive vice president of Getty Oil in charge of European operations. Paul [his son]: What? All I know about oil is regular or premium. Getty: You wanted a job. I'm giving it to you. Sink or swim. He sunk. Paul [voiceover]: My grandfather wanted our family to become a dynasty. But Dad could never control his drinking. And the first time he tried drugs at a party, he was lost. ... Gail: A deal. Lawyer: I'm sorry, did you say something? Gail: The offer I'm about to make expires at the end of business today. Getty: What is your offer, Ms. Harris? Gail: Nothing. You pay nothing. No alimony, no settlement, no community property, nothing. I don't want any money for myself, just child support for the kids. Getty: I don't get it. Gail: And I want my son on a plane back from Morocco to me, tonight, and full custody. Getty: What's your game? Gail: I don't want your money. Getty: Everybody wants my money. Gail: You want your money, I want Paul. We can both have what we want. Getty: I sense I'm being taken. l...I just don't know how. Gail: You can't help yourself. You didn't get where you are without a healthy regard for the value of a dollar. You know a bargain when you see one. You know how to seize the initiative when your opponent is at his weakest. What I'm offering you is the greatest bargain you'll ever get. But free never lasts. By six o'clock. ... Reporter [on TV]: Mr. Getty, we 've received reports that a note has arrived written in your grandson's handwriting demanding$17 million US.
Getty: 17 Million? That's an awful lot of money for such a young boy.
Reporter: Mr. Getty, what steps will you be taking to secure your grandson's safety?
Getty: None.
Reporter: I'm afraid we didn't get that, sir.
Getty: I have 14 grandchildren. If I start paying ransoms, I'll have 14 kidnapped grandchildren.
Reporter: Yeah, you're a famously ruthless negotiator, Mr. Getty.
Getty: Yes, but there's very little in life worth paying full price for, don't you think?
Reporter: How much would you pay for your grandson, if not $17 million? Getty: Nothing. ... Saudi official [from the Royal Family]: We don't need the Americans anymore. Our cartel, OPEC, will control inventory now. OPEC will set the oil price. Fletcher: Let me just be very clear, okay? Nothing would make Mr. Getty happier than to see the price of oil higher. In fact, he'd be happy to help. ... Getty: I love my grandson, Chace. Chace: I'm sure you do. Getty: Well, I love all my grandchildren, of course, but Paul, Paul is special. I don't know what I would do if anything happened to that boy. Now, I want you to go to Rome. I want you to bring him back as quickly and as inexpensively as possible. Chace: I'm gonna need some kind of resources to work with if you want him back alive. Getty: Well, of course. | just didn't want you giving my money away, see? Now, you find the boy, Chace. And find out who took him. ... Fletcher: My name is Fletcher Chace. I'm gonna help you find your son. Gail: I'm sure you're very good at what you do, Mr. Chace. My former father-in-law only buys the best. But I don't need an ex-secret agent to solve the mystery of what happened to my son, because there is no mystery. I need one thing only, and that is$17 million.
Fletcher: Paying the ransom doesn't guarantee you get your son back.
Gail: Not paying the ransom nearly guarantees I don't.

...

Fletcher: I'd say your son's chances are better than that.
Gail: Why don't you explain the odds to me. Is it a coin toss? Heads he lives, tails he dies. I can see how that's a chance worth taking when there's real money at stake.
Fletcher: All right, let me rephrase that, please.
Gail: $1 billion earns$17 million a month sitting in a bank vault. He could buy a Matisse every day and never spend it all.
Fletcher: I don't think this is about money for Mr. Getty.
Gail: I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was your first day on the job.

...

Gail [in Rome at the police station]: All these letters are addressed to me. You've been opening my mail?
Magistrate Corvo: This may be your mail, Ms. Getty, but it is our evidence. You see, all these letters, they come from people who claim to have kidnapped your son. They come from all over the world, too. Germany, California...Faster than we can investigate.
Fletcher: Well, $17 million sure brings out a crowd. ... Fletcher: You want some free advice? Put it in the papers. When the kidnappers find out that every lowlife in Rome is trying to scoop up their ransom, they'll have to come out into the open to claim it. Corvo: It's the communists. It's the Red Brigades, the Brigate Rosse. To kidnap the child of the richest capitalist in the world, it's a dream come true for them. ... Cinquanta: Okay, write another letter to your mother and tell her, if she doesn't pay, we'll mail her your finger. Why doesn't your family love you? Paul: I think they love me. I hope so. Cinquanta: What's wrong with you? Are you a bad boy? You're a bad boy. Don't lie. What did you do? Paul: I set fire to my school once and got kicked out. Cinquanta: Well, boys play with fire. ... Cinquanta: If my son was kidnapped, bad, good, I would pay any money to get him back. I would borrow it. Steal. Okay, I steal anyway, but I would steal more. Americans. I don't understand you. For us, family is everything. We are obbligati. l was born into my family, and that decides my whole life. My whole life. Paul: I'm obbligato, too. As much as you. ... Cinquanta [to Paul]: What are you doing? Write! Convince her to pay us our money, or Madonna mia, I...I'll kill you myself. ... Fletcher [to Gail]: Did Paul ever talk to you about having himself kidnapped? Gail: You've got to remember who the Gettys are. Every time someone stays in the bathroom for too long, someone makes a joke about being held for ransom. Paul might have cracked a joke once or twice among friends... Fletcher: There's that word again. Gail: What word? Fletcher: A "joke." You said you thought it was a joke when it first happened. Gail: Now you sound like that policeman. Whose side are you on, Mr. Chace? Fletcher: I'm on my own side. Always. And if this is a joke, I'd like to make sure that I'm in on it. ... Getty: When I wrote my book, "How to Be Rich", the publishers wanted to change the title. They wanted to call it "How to Get Rich." Well, I told them, "Getting rich is easy." I mean, any fool can get rich. And any number of fools do. Fletcher: I've noticed that. Getty: But being rich, that's something else. When a man becomes wealthy, he has to deal with the problems of freedom. All the choices he could possibly want. An abyss opens up. Well, I've watched that abyss. I've watched it ruin men, marriages. But most of all, it ruins the children. I thought I could trust my own blood. Fletcher: He's a kid. Kids do stupid things. He's probably lying on a beach somewhere, and when he gets bored or runs out of money, he'll come home and he'll have learned his lesson. ... Getty: I wanted to give my grandson everything, everything I've learned, all of my knowledge, all that I've built. And he just wanted to pick my pocket like his father, like all the parasites that have swarmed around me all my life. That's why I like things. You see? Things, objects, artifacts, paintings, and...They are exactly what they appear to be. They never change. They never disappoint. There's a purity to beautiful things that I've never been able to find in another human being. Fletcher: Neither have I. Of course we know better. Kidnapper: You saw my face! Don't lie! Paul: Look, man, I won't tell anybody, I swear. You can trust me. Kidnapper [to another kidnapper, both of whom aim their revolvers at Paul]: He saw my face. Paul: Look, I won't tell anybody, okay? Look, you guys can still get your money. Please, please, please. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, I won't tell anybody! Please! [the sound of a gunshot] ... Gail [looking at the charred remains of a corpse]: It's not him. It's not Paul. Fletcher [to Corvo]: Of course it's not him. It's a grown man. How could you not see that? That guy was headed for a midlife crisis when they shot him. ... Kidnapper [who lay dying to Corvo]: They sold him. ... Fletcher: We need to pay the ransom. Getty: I thought you said this was a hoax. Fletcher: Your grandson was kidnapped by members of the Calabrese 'Ndrangheta. Two of the original kidnappers are dead, and one is missing. Getty: That sounds like progress to me. Fletcher: I'm afraid not, all right? They got nervous waiting for the ransom. They sold the boy to an investor. Getty: An investor? Who invests in kidnapped children? Fletcher: You'd be surprised. There's nothing people can't find a way to turn into money. Getty: You told me that Paul and his mother had cooked this up to soak me. Fletcher: And l was wrong, all right? Paul may have talked about being kidnapped with his friends. He put it out there. He's not behind this. Getty: How do I know that you're not wrong now? Fletcher: These people are not the old-world Malavita anymore. Their only code is profit and loss. They will do things to Paul that cannot be undone for any amount of money. We have to pay. Getty: This simply isn't possible. My financial position has changed. Fletcher: Really? I mean, 30 seconds ago, you said it was a good day. I mean, I'm not all that bright, but I can multiply as well as you. With oil up as much as it was this morning, you have amassed another fortune. Getty: Well, what if the embargo is lifted and oil were to crash? I'd be exposed. I have never been more vulnerable financially than I am right now. Fletcher: Mr. Getty, with all due respect, nobody has ever been richer than you are at this moment. Getty: I have no money to spare. Fletcher: What would it take? I mean, what would it take for you to feel secure? Getty: More. ... Cinquanta [to Gail on the phone]: I'm not in charge of the boy anymore. ... Fletcher [on the phone]: Mr. Getty's authorized me to negotiate on his behalf. We'll cover all your expenses up to$200,000. Anything under this figure is not considered extortion under Italian law, so you can walk away free and clear.
Cinquanta: Come on. These people are not stupid, Signor Chace.
Fletcher: The boy is worth nothing to anybody. Okay? We're just trying to settle this without causing any more embarrassment to the family. He's a juvenile delinquent, his grandfather has disowned him. It's a tough break. You took the wrong kid, but you're getting off easy now.
Cinquanta: You arrogant bastard.
Fletcher: Your uncle Piccolino died in custody last night, by the way. You better take this deal before the same happens to you.
[Gail brabs the phone]
Gail: Cinquanta, don't hang up. This is Gail.
[too late]

...

Gailo [enraged]: Get out, get out, get out!
Fletcher: Gail, I lied. All right? I said I was authorized to pay them $200,000. You know how much I'm really authorized to pay? Nothing. All right, if they accept, I won't be able to deliver, but I had to buy some time. You wanted to know what I used to do. This is what I used to do, what I still do for Getty. Gail: You make deals. You buy people. Fletcher: That's right. Whether it's an oil well in the desert or a human life, it's all the same. We have to show we are willing to walk away. Gail: I can't walk away. You can walk away, because you have nothing else in your life. Because there's no one in your life but yourself. Fletcher: Fair enough.$17 million and zero dollars, that's how far apart we are. Those numbers have got to move.

...

Cinquanta [to Gail on the phone]: Seven million dollars.

...

Gail [on the phone]: Hello? Hello?
Paul: Mom.
Gail: Paul?
Paul: Mom, is that you?
Gail: Paul?!
Paul: Its okay. I'm safe now. I'm at the police station. I'm all right. But I need you to come and get me.
Gail: What police station are you at?
Paul [weeping, pleading]: They came so close. | just want to go home, Mom. Please come get me. Please.
Gail: Okay. I'm coming to get you.

No, as matter of fact, she's not.

Gail: This piece came from my former father-in-law's personal collection. By his own estimate, it would bring 1.2 million at auction, and that was years ago.
Sotheby Rome official: Ms. Getty, this is un gingillo, a trinket of the type sold to tourists.
Gail: J. Paul Getty is the foremost collector in the world. Do you really believe that you know better than he does?
Official: No, signora, I do not. But I do know what my eyes see.

...

Cinquanta: Okay, drink, drink, drink. You drink enough, you can't feel a thing, okay?
Paul: Who the fuck is that?
Cinquanta: He's...He's a good doctor.
Paul: He's a good doctor. What?
Cinquanta: You don't even feel it. This, I promise.
Paul: What are you talking about? What do you mean, I'm not gonna feel it? What's he gonna do?
Cinquanta: Paolo. These men are going to take a part of you. The ear. Let them have it, and live.

...

Newspaper editor: We would like to publish it, Ms. Getty. The photograph of the ear. It's news, and we are a newspaper.
Gail: It's my son's ear. It's his. It's ours.
Editor: And that's why we want to offer some compensation.
Gail: I don't want to sell you pictures of my son's ear.
Editor: Ms. Getty, your son is being held for ransom. You claim not to have any money.
Fletcher: How much money are you offering?
Editor: $50,000 American. Gail: Pay me in newspapers. I don't want any money. I want 1,000 copies of your paper. Editor: And where would you like these thousand copies sent, Ms. Getty? We know where. Cinquanta [on phone]: Paul is weak. He's lost so much blood. They wanted to take the foot, and I convinced them to take the ear. But the foot is coming next. I hear them talking. I beg you, get the money. Gail: Tell us where you are. We'll make a deal with you in exchange for your cooperation. Cinquanta [laughing]: The police?! Gail: We'll get you out of Italy. Cinquanta: No, no, no. You don't understand. I can never talk to the police. It's onore. It is forbidden. Even if this was my own child. Gail: There must be something that you can do. Cinquanta: And what about you, signora? I've risked my throat for your son. And you, what have you given for him? And don't tell me you don't have the money. But he hangs up before she can explain [again] why she does not have it. Oswald [on the phone]: Ms. Getty, this is Oswald Hinge in London. I'm sure you don't remember me. Gail: Mr. Hinge. I haven't forgotten a thing. Osweald: I'm calling on behalf of Mr. Getty. Not your former husband. Gail: The old one with the money. Oswald: That's the one. Gail: What can I do for you? Oswald: Mr. Getty has decided to pay Paul's ransom. Gail: Thank you, Mr. Hinge. Oswald: You thank him. I am but a messenger. Gail: Well, I would if he'd let me. Oswald: Well, you'll get your chance. We'll need you to come to London for some discussions. Gail: What is there to discuss? Oswald: Thank you very much. [he hangs up] ... Getty: Well, you'll be happy to learn that there are some new developments, which will enable us to finally help our Little Paul. Gail: So glad to hear it. Getty: My tax attorneys have discovered that while ransom payments are not deductible under the tax code, I could write off the interest if I loan the ransom money to my son. Gail: You've discovered you can take my son's kidnapping as a tax deduction. I'm happy it works out financially for you. ... Oswald: There's just the matter of the side letter. If I may, the...In exchange for Mr. Getty making the loan, you agree to sign over full custody of all your children, including Paul, to your exhusband. Gail: "Sign over"? Oswald: Yes, all parental rights reside with Mr. Getty. Just sign here. Gail [looking over at her strung out ex-husband]: Are you part of this? [then she turns to her attorney] Gail: They can't do this, can they? Getty: My legal team is the best there is. If it wouldn't stand up in court, they wouldn't have written it. Now, you just take it easy. Sleep on it and have your attorney read it over. Gail: I don't have time to sleep on it. My child is being held prisoner. Getty: Well, there is that. Gail [bitterly]: I let you have the money back then. I didn't ask for anything but my kids. You just can't bear to leave anything on the table, can you? ... Lawyer: We have a problem. Getty has agreed to loan his son the ransom, up to the amount that is tax deductible. Gail: So? Lawyer: So, I investigate. Under US tax code, only the first million is deductible. That's all they wired to us. Gail: What is the ransom down to? Fletcher: Four. Down from 17. Gail: We don't have four. We have one. .., Gail [on the phone]: What is Paul's condition? Cinquanta: He's not so good, but we can keep him alive a few days. Long enough to make the exchange. Gail: We may not have all of it. Cinquanta: All of what? Gail: We only have one million. Cinquanta: The number is four. Fletcher: One is the new number. Cinquanta: One is one quarter of the ransom. For this, they'll send one quarter of your son. Tell me, which quarter do you want? Fletcher: Did you hold the kid down so they could cut off his ear? Cinquanta: You greedy animals. You're the worst criminals of all. Listen to me. I don 't have any money to make from this anymore. But I don't want Paul to die. You have to go back and get Getty to pay. Gail: You have to get me some time here. I'm fighting an empire. Cinquanta: You think you're the only one? ... Fletcher: Look, we have the million. Gail: For a million, they'll kill him. They won't believe me when I say I don't have the rest of the money. Nobody believes me. Fletcher: There was never any guarantees, Gail. The money would give us a chance, maybe a window of opportunity to grab him. Gail: The money, the money, the money, the money, the money. I can't bear to hear about the money. Everybody thinks I have the money. The newspapers, kidnappers, they all think I'm rich. ... Gail: We announce I have the ransom money, all four million. We make the exchange. You get your window. Fletcher: And what happens when they find out the money's not all there? Gail: By that time, we either have Paul or... Fletcher: Now you're thinking like Getty. ... Getty: What's all this I see on TV with Gail paying the ransom in full? We both know she doesn't have it. Fletcher: The lady's made other arrangements. Getty: But she doesn't have the money. So, what's going on? Come on. Where did she get it? Is she fucking somebody? Fletcher: You know, I think I'm finally beginning to understand what makes you tick. Getty: No, no, you couldn't begin to. So, spill it. What's going on? What's her game? Don't forget, Chace, l have a contract. And I'll enforce it. Fletcher: No, I don't think so. Getty: Oh? Why not? Fletcher [moving in close to him]: Can you hear me? I want to make sure that I am very clear. Because whatever personal security you presently enjoy comes from me. All right? Those Alsatians limping around the pool? My people trained them. Your security system? My people installed it. The bodyguards? That's right, you rapacious old fuck, you are protected from every threat imaginable, unless that threat happens to be me. Getty: I suppose this is your way of submitting your resignation. Fletcher: Hey! "Men of risk"? Isn't that what you called us? "I risk my money. You risk your life." You're so full of shit. You and me? We never risked a thing in our lives. We never took the chances ordinary people take. That's why we are what we are now. You're just cheap, Paul. You could have all the money in the world, and you are still a no-good miserable son of a bitch, and don't you forget it. Goodbye, Mr. Getty. Getty: Those children are my blood, Chace! They're mine. She took them. ... Lawyer: The money came through. It was the full ransom.$3.3 million. At today's exchange rate, 1.6 billion lira. They wired this along with the money. Getty caved. What did you say to him?
[Fletcher looks down at the telegraph: THE MONEY AND THE CHILDREN ARE HERS -- JPG
Fletcher: I couldn't even tell you.

...

Cinquanta [on the phone to Gail]: Drive a Fiat 125 with two suitcases tied to the roof. Exit the autostrada tollgate at 9:00 am. and drive south at exactly 80 kilometers an hour. Do not stop for food, toilet, nothing. Remember, they're watching. A small stone will strike your windshield. This will be their sign to stop. Obey these rules, or they will take his other ear. His eye. A hand.

...

Cinqunata: Hey, Paolo. Don't wait. Run. And get out of Italy.
Paul: You too.

...

Cinquanta [to Fletcher]: Get him out of Italy...now! What are you waiting for...go!!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Once again Earth is theatened. Annihilation itself is "shimmering" on the horizon. We are all at the mercy of a handful of professionals able to determine what this thing is; and then coming up with a way to either destroy it, to neutralize it or at the very least to minimize its destructive power. Only here these professionals are all women. All scientists.

In other words, a new sci-fi flick in which the focus [more often than not] is either on an absorbing plot [one that, say, actually makes you think] or on fantastic special effects [and the "action"].

And only the truly great films in this genre -- think Alien -- are able to combine both elements in order make the movie "a true classic".

So, is this one of them?

You tell me.

If nothing else with films like this, we can explore "reality" in a world where the laws of nature as we know them may or may not apply. Also, given the staggering vastness inherent in the cosmos itself [and the profound mystery embedded in the existence of anything at all] it is always fascinating to explore relationships of this sort on a whole other level.

On the other hand, some will watch a film like this and complain that it, "throws all logic out the window!" The events don't comport with their own notion of what is rational, so it all becomes absurd. Still, imagine watching a sci-fi film in the 1950s in which the characters used smart phones and exchanged emails while navigating the internet. Would any of that have seemed feasible? Bottom line: Who the hell really knows what is "behind" reality...existence...the human condition?

It just comes down to how compelling any rendition of "science fiction" might be to any particular one of us. If nothing else it either entertains us or it doesn't. And then the part where the story and the characters are able to intrigue us emotionally and intellectually.

The ending?

One take on it: https://youtu.be/vdAfah15V-Y

IMDb

Due to a poorly received test screening, David Ellison, a financier at Paramount, became concerned that the film was "too intellectual" and "too complicated," and demanded changes to make it appeal to a wider audience, including making Portman's character more sympathetic and changing the ending. Producer Scott Rudin sided with Garland in his desire to not alter the film, defending the film and refusing to take notes. Rudin had final cut.

Prior to its release, the film drew some criticism for the casting of Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Leigh as characters who are, in the books, described as Asian and half-Native American. Garland explained that none of the five female characters' ethnicity is revealed in the first book, which is the only one of the trilogy he has read, and that the script was actually complete before the second book was published. He cast the characters based on his reaction only to the actors he met in the casting process, or actors he had worked with before. Because he wanted to take the story in his own direction, he did not read the other two books while making the film in order to not be influenced by them.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2798920/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/89OP78l9oF0

Annihilation [2018]
Written and directed by Alex Garland

Lomax [in the present]: What did you eat? You had rations for two weeks. You were inside for nearly four months.
Lena: I don't remember eating.
Lomax: How long did you think you were inside?
Lena: Days. Maybe weeks.
Lomax: What happened to Josie Radek?
Lena: I don't know.
Lomax: Thorensen?
Lomax: Ventress?
Lean: I don't know.
Lomax: Then what do you know?

...

Lena [teaching a class at medical school]: This is a cell. Like all cells, it is born from an existing cell. And by extension, all cells were ultimately born from one cell. A single organism alone on planet Earth, perhaps alone in the universe. About four billion years ago one became two, two became four. Then eight, 16, 32. The rhythm of the dividing pair which becomes the structure of every microbe, blade of grass, sea creature, land creature and human. The structure of everything that lives...and everything that dies. As students of medicine, as the doctors of tomorrow, this is where you come in. The cell we're looking at is from a tumor. Female patient, early 30s, taken from the cervix. Over the course of the next term, we will be closely examining cancer cells in vitro and discussing autophagic activity.

...

Lena: Was it covert?
Kane: Mm... Maybe.
Lena: What does that mean, "maybe"?
Kane: Okay, yeah, it was covert. Yeah, I think so.
Lena: Pakistan again?
Kane: I-- I don't know where it was, or...what it was.
Lena: How is that possible? Was it warm? Was there snow? Did the people there speak Portuguese, or Swahili, or Pashto? How long have you been back?
Kane: I don't know.
Lena: How'd you get back? What base did you fly into?
Kane: I don't know.
Lena: You must be able to tell me something. You vanished off the face of the earth for 12 months. I deserve a better explanation than no explanation.
Kane: Does it matter?

...

Lena: Where am I? Where's my husband?
Dr Ventress: You served in the military for seven years.
Lena: I'm a professor from Johns Hopkins. I want to know what the fuck I'm doing here.
Dr Ventress: Your research area is the genetically programmed life cycle of a cell.
Lena: Where is my husband?
Dr Ventress: Yeah, I'd like to talk about Sergeant Kane.

...

Dr Ventress [to Lena, looking into the distance at a strange shimmering phenomenon]: A religious event? An extraterrestrial event? A higher dimension? We have many theories, few facts. It started around three years ago. Blackwater National Park reported that a lighthouse was surrounded by something they termed "a shimmer." One of the wardens went in to investigate. Never returned. The event was classified. Since then, we've approached by land, by sea, sent in drones, animals, and teams of people. But nothing comes back.

...

Dr Ventress: It's expanding. So far, it's eating into barely populated swampland, which, you know, we evacuated under the pretext of a chemical spill, but that won't last much longer. In a few months, the area will have grown to where we are right now. And then we're talking cities... states... and so on.
Lena: You said nothing comes back. But something has.
Dr Ventress: Yes.

...

Lena [to Kane in the past]: You take a cell, circumvent the Hayflick limit, you can prevent senescence. I was about to make the exact same point. It means the cell doesn't grow old, it becomes immortal. Keeps dividing, doesn't die. They say aging is a natural process, but it's actually a fault in our genes.

...

Kane: Why?
Lena: The silence around it is louder than usual.

...

Anya [to Lena and the team]: The previous teams have been largely military.
Lena: What do you think happened to them?
Anya: Well, there are two theories of what went wrong in the Shimmer. One, something kills them. Two, they go crazy and kill each other.

...

Lena: Why are you going into the Shimmer?
Dr Ventress: The mission statement is to reach the supposed source of the Shimmer, the lighthouse, enter and acquire data, and return.
Lena: But I don't think that that's your mission statement.
Dr Ventress: No. I've been watching the phenomenon for a while now. I profile the volunteers. I pick the teams. They enter, I watch. I watch it grow closer. There's only so long one can do that.
Lena: But you need to know what's inside?
Dr Ventress: Yes, I do.
Lena: So do I.

...

Lena [examining a bizarre plant]: These are very strange.
Dr Ventress: Why?
Lena: Well, they're all so different. To look at them, you wouldn't say that they're the same species. But they're growing from the same branch structure so it has to be the same species. It's the same plant. It's like they're stuck in a continuous mutation.
Dr Ventress: A pathology?
Lena: Yeah, well...you'd sure as hell call it a pathology if you saw this in a human.

...

Lena [in the present]: The mutations were subtle at first. More extreme as we grew closer to the lighthouse. Corruptions of form. Duplicates of form.
Lomax: Duplicates?
Lena: Echoes.
Lomax: Is it possible these were hallucinations?
Lena: I wondered that myself. But they were shared among all of us. It was dreamlike.
Lomax: Nightmarish?
Lena: Not always. Sometimes it was beautiful.

...

Lena: More mutations. They're everywhere. Malignant. Like tumors.

...

Dr Ventress [holding up a plastic bag]: This might be able to tell us something. "For those that follow." I believe that means us.
Josie: A memory card.

...

Josie [after watching the memory card vodeo]: That was a trick of the light.
Anya: His insides were moving.
Josie: No, it was shock. That was a shock response.
Anya: Watch it again.
Josie: No, I'm not gonna watch it again!
Anya: That was not intestines. It was a worm...

...

Cass [watching Lena at the microscope]: The mystery unraveling?
Lena: Something's unraveling.

...

Lena: Why did my husband volunteer for a suicide mission?
Dr Ventress: Is that what you think we're doing...committing suicide?

...

Dr Ventress [to Lena]: I'd say you're confusing suicide with self-destruction. Almost none of us commit suicide...and almost all of us self-destruct. In some way, in some part of our lives. We drink, or we smoke. We destabilize the good job. Or the happy marriage. These aren't decisions, they're...they're impulses. In fact, you're probably better equipped to explain this than I am. You're a biologist. Isn't self-destruction programmed into us, programmed into each cell?

...

Dr Ventress [after Cass is killed and some want to go back]: We haven't reached the lighthouse. We still don't understand the cause or the nature of the Shimmer.
Josie: We have data, observations, photographs.
Dr Ventress: All of which makes the phenomenon less explicable, not more. I'm gonna get to the lighthouse, and I'm fine going on my own. You just need to decide whether you're coming with me or not.

...

Lomax [in the present]: You lied to them.
Lena: I didn't know what going back meant. Why it would be safer than going forward.
Lomax: You didn't know, but you made a decision to continue as if you did.
Lomax: Ventress had cancer. She was never coming back. You knew she was sick.
Lomax: And you wanted to continue.
Lena: Yes. I did.

...

Josie: That leaf in your hand...know what you'd get if you sequenced it? Human Hox genes. Lena: Hox. They're the genes that define the body plan, the physical structure.
Josie: And the plants have human body plan. Arms attached to shoulders. Legs to hips.
Lena: It's literally not possible.
Josie: It's literally what's happening. The Shimmer is a prism, but it refracts everything. Not just light and radio waves. Animal DNA, plant DNA...all DNA.
Anya: What do you mean, "all DNA"?

...

Josie [to the other three gagged and tied to chairs}: There are two theories of what went wrong. One is that something in here killed them. Two is that they went crazy and they killed each other. Josie nearly got killed by an alligator, and Cass did get killed by a bear. So, yes, theory one, it fits. But I didn't actually see a bear. And neither did Josie. The only people who saw were Lena and Ventress. So nothing's confirmed. Everything's on their word. Everything's on Lena's word. And what we know now is that Lena is a liar.

...

Lena: What are you doing?
Dr Ventress: I'm leaving.
Lena: Now? It's not even light yet.
Dr Ventress: I don't have time to wait. We are disintegrating. Our bodies as fast as our minds. Can't you feel it? It's like the onset of dementia. If I don't reach the lighthouse soon the person that started this journey won't be the person that ends it. I want to be the one that ends it.

...

Lena: We should go, Josie.
Josie: How long was your husband in the Shimmer?
Lena: It's hard to say exactly. Theoretically, as long as a year.
Josie: That's a long time to be inside and remain intact.
Lena: I'm not so sure he was intact.
Josie: I'm right about the refreaction, aren't I?
Lena: Yeah. I checked my blood last night. It's in me.
Josie: It will be in all of us.

...

Josie [to Lena]: Ventress wants to face it. You want to fight it. But I don't think I want either of those things.

...

Lomax [in the present]: One by one, all gone, except you. How do you explain that?
Lena: Is it something I need to explain?
Lomax: Yes, you do.
Lena: I had to come back. I'm not sure any of them did.

...

Kane [on a video Lena is watching]: I thought I was a man. I had a life. People called me Kane. And now I'm not so sure. If I wasn't Kane, what was I? Was I you? Were you me? My flesh moves like liquid. My mind is just cut loose. I can't bear it. I can't bear it. I can't bear it. You ever seen a phosphorus grenade go off? They're kind of bright. Shield your eyes. If you ever get out of here, you find Lena. I will. No. Five, four, three, two...

Down the rabbit hole...

Dr Ventress [in a surreal underground caravan]: t's the last phase. Vanished into havoc. Unfathomable mind. And now beacon. Now sea.
Lena: Dr Ventress?
Dr Ventress: Lena?....We spoke. What was it we said? That I needed to know what was inside the lighthouse. That moment's passed. It's inside me now.
Lena: What's inside you?
Dr Ventress: It's not like us. It's unlike us. I don't know what it wants. Or if it wants. But it will grow until it encompasses everything. Our bodies and our minds will be fragmented into their smallest parts until not one part remains. Annihilation.

...

Lomax [in the present]: So it was alien. Can you describe its form?
Lena: No.
Lomax: Was it carbon based?
Lena: I don't know.
Lomax: What did it want?
Lena: I don't think it wanted anything.
Lomax: But it...it attacked you.
Lena: It mirrored me. I attacked it. I'm not sure it even knew I was there.
Lomax: It came here for a reason. It was mutating our environment, it was destroying everything.
Lena: It wasn't destroying. It was changing everything. It was making something new.
Lomax: Making what?
Lena [after a pause]: I don't know.
Lomax: A team reached the lighthouse a few hours ago. Everything is ash. If what you encountered was once alive it seems it's now dead.

...

Lena: Now will you tell me what happened to my husband?
Lomax: When the Shimmer disappeared, his blood pressure stabilized and his pulse rate started to rise. A few hours later, he was not only awake, he was lucid. He's still in isolation, obviously.
Lena: So am I.

...

Lena: You aren't Kane...are you?
Kane: I don't think so....Are you Lena?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

How many nice things will people say about someone who raises a child in a motel? More or less on a permanent basis. For some that's even a notch below trailer trash.

Sure, they're people just like the rest of us; but, unlike the rest of us, they live out on the margins. Right out there on the edge where you basically do what you can to survive from day to day. Something analogous to, say, the lumpenproletariat.

They're just not all that sophisticated, articulate, educated. Or nice to be around. And the kids here are not likely to fall far from the tree. But they are kids. And, just like the kids being wrenched from their families by the Trump administration, it's really hard to see them as anything other than victims of precarious circumstances. Circumstances that are basically beyond their control.

After all, Moonee didn't have much to say about being raised by a mother who smokes dope and prostitutes herself. A mother living largely on welfare. And scams. And other adults in her life are either willing to take that into account or they're not.

Besides, when push comes to shove, the Mom really loves her daughter and the daughter really loves her mom.

Still, this kid is scrambling to get by alongside what is described as "the happiest place on earth" for most kids. Disney World. A fun place for kids who are raised instead by considerably more adffluent and stable families. Intact families.

On the other hand, kids just want to have fun. But the kind of fun these kids pursue is about what you'd expect from the kind of kids raised like this. Setting abandoned buildings on fire for example.

As for the ending: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... rfect.html

IMDb

In a 2017 BBC radio interview, the director clarified that the film's garish motel settings are genuine motels. They continued operating as working businesses during filming, and some real-life residents and staff are seen in the film.

Frequent flying of helicopters overhead was written into the script because production did not have enough budget to stop the helicopters from flying.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Florida_Project
trailer: https://youtu.be/NVtJw389BXM

The Florida Project [2017]
Written in part and directed by Sean Baker

Dickee: Moonee! Scooty!
Moonee and Scooty: What?! What?!
Dickee: Freshies at The Future! Freshies at The Future!

...

Bobby [at the door]: Halley, this woman's from next door and she said Moonee did something to her car.
Halley: You in 322?
Bobby: No, FutureLand.
Woman: Okay, her and her friend Scoot spit all over my kid and my car.
Moonee [from inside]: It's Scooty. It's Scooty, not Scoot.
Halley: You saw them do this?
Woman: Yes, I did! And their friend's father told me that they're always pulling this shit.
Moonee: That's not true! Which friend?
Woman: Whatever, they spit on my car, and they spit on my kid!
Bobby: Okay, okay. Okay. Halley, sort this out.

...

Halley: Most of those rachet-ass bitches were doing extras, you know? In the back room. I'm not doing that shit. I'm dancing for tips, that's what I do. I said no. Two days later, with no warning, Hector fires me. After not letting me up on stage all fucking night? Fucking bullshit.
Woman [from the welfare department]: Halley, I'm sorry, but...Okay, I'm-I'm sorry to say, that's gonna affect your TANF.
Halley: No shit, that's why I'm here.
Woman: Okay, Halley, please make a concerted effort to find thirty hours.
Halley: Ha! You find me thirty hours. I have applications in at every shithole up and down the strip and the parks ain't gonna hire me.

...

Moonee: Could Jancey come out and play?
Woman: What you're gonna take her to spit on somebody else's car?
Moonee: No, we're just playing.
Woman: What are you playing?
Moonee: We're just playing!
Woman: Okay, what are you playing? You didn't answer my question. What are you playing?
Moonee: Relax, your daughter's safe in my hands.

...

Tourist: You see my wife?
Bobby: There? Okay? Yeah.
Tourist: She's Brazilian. Brazilians love Disney. She's been coming here since she was a kid, all right? And her dream is to have her honeymoon at Disney.

...

Gloria: Cover what up?
Bobby: You know what I'm talking about. These kids don't need a health class right now.
Gloria: What kids are here?
Bobby: The kids are right over there!...Can you read? What's that say?
Gloria: Pool rules.
Bobby: No, the other one.
Gloria: Oh, no tits allowed.
Bobby: No. "No alcoholic beverages in pool area."
Gloria: Okay, I-I'll do that. But I still wanna go topless with my big titties.

...

Scooty [from the motel]: Hey, Gloria! Rub--Rub your boobs on his face! So he can...
Bobby: Kids, get the hell outta there!

...

Halley [to Ashley]: Yo, by the way...you gotta do me a fuckin' favor. Next time Moonee comes to you to get food don't give her no fuckin' maple syrup! This bitch has been farting!

The bitch is her 6 year old daughter.

Bobby: I thought you were thirsty? Aren't you gonna drink it now?
Old man [Bobby suspects is a pedaphile]: Yeah, yeah.
Bobby [knocking the can of soda out of his hand]: Get the fuck outta here. You come on this property again, and you won't be leavin' it. You understand?
Old man: I don't know what you're talkin' about.
Bobby: You don't know what I'm talkin' about? You're gonna play it that way, huh?
[he grabs the man and yanks out his wallet]
Bobby: Charlie Coachman of Cherry Hill, New Jersey.
Old man: You can't keep that, that's my license.
Bobby: I'm gonna call your name into the County Sheriff. Now, you get the fuck outta here!

All in a day's work.

Moonee [in an abandoned condo complex]: Whoa, a fireplace. I have the best idea. Scooty! We need you right now!
[she shoves a pillow into it]
Moonee: Put it in there. This is gonna be the best fire ever. Light it up, Scooty!

...

Ashley: You tell me the truth right now. Do you understand what will happen to us if you set that fire? Do you want the fuckin' DCF down here, Scooty?!

...

Halley [at the fire, oblivious, to Moonee]: What the fuck happened? Aren't you excited? This so much better than TV! Can I take a picture of you? I wanna send it to Ashley. Stand right there.
[Moonee stands in front of the burning building]

...

Ashley [in the restaurant]: What do you want, Halley?
Moonee: What's going on?
Ashley: What do you mean?
Moonee: You've been telling my daughter she ain't welcome here no more?
Ashley: Look, she can come in here...but I can't keep givin' out free food. And I don't want Scooty hangin' out with her or that new kid from FutureLand.

...

Moonee: Why'd you let her have our perfume?
Halley: It's complicated, baby.
Moonee: But why?
Halley: I can't get arrested again.

Cue the Seven Dwarfs Lane sign.

Bobby: I'm not gonna explain it to you again. I ain't gonna let you or anyone else establish residency. Don't think I think you're as dumb as you want me to think. You're gonna screw me over. You don't wanna do this? You can go. I'm serious.
Halley: Well, who's gonna know if we even did this?
Bobby: I'm being straight with you. Gotta settle up by Friday.

...

Moonee: Give us a break, lady!

...

Moonee: Hi, Bobby! Hi, bossy guy!
Bobby: Good kids. Mostly.

...

Bobby: Ashley, have you been spottin' Halley on the rent?
Ashley: What? And why would I do that? I don't even talk to that bitch.

...

Man [Halley's john]: Hey, there's a kid in here.
Halley: Dude, I told you the bathroom was off limits!
Halley: Close the curtain, Moonee.

...

Bobby: New job?
Halley: Yeah.
Bobby: Interesting hours.
Halley: What?
Bobby: One...I see you dressed in PJ's all day, every day. Two...If you're workin' who's lookin' after Moonee?

Moonee is basically part of her scams.

Moonee: Did he have to pee again?

...

Halley: You're violating the Fifth Amendment or something.
Halley: You can't fucking do that.
Bobby: That's it! That's it!
Halley: Who do you think you are? Bobby Big Shot?! Fuck you, Bobby!
Bobby: I don't have to listen to you. Out! I want you out of this lobby! I'm gonna count to three. And if you don't leave this lobby, you're outta here tonight. One! Two! Three!
[she storms out, then reaches inside her pants and...
Bobby: Oh! Nice!

I won't tell you what she does. You have to see it yourself. And trust me: It's not in the trailer.

Halley: Could you spot me my rent this week? I'm maxxed out.
Ashley: What? I think you got that covered.
Halley: What are you talking about?
Ashley: You don't think everybody knows what's up, Halley? Like... everybody.
Halley: What the fuck are you talking about?
Ashley [shows her a photo on her phone]: Bitch. Seems pretty clear to me. That's you.
Halley: That's not me.
Ashley: Those are your tats, bitch!! Are you fucking kidding me? And I swear to God if Scooty was ever in the room while you were whoring off I'll fucking kill you.

Cue the DCF

Moonee: Mom, what's going on?
Halley: It's okay, baby.
Moonee: What's okay?

...

DFC woman: Halley, these DCF officers are here in regards to Moonee.
Halley: Wanna inspect my room? Be my guest. You wanna shake my boxes? You wanna look inside my fridge?
DFC: Halley, we have security footage showing nine different men entering and exiting your room...We've also obtained this online classified ad soliciting customers for sexual activities with your phone number attached.

...

Moonee: Ashley, what happened to your face?

...

DFC woman: I'm going to take you to a nice family where you're gonna be okay just for a little while. Is that okay?
Moonee: Well, I don't want to. I don't want to go. I don't want to go.
Moonee: Do you want me to get super angry?

...

DFC woman: Halley, can you...She's being very emotional right now.
DFC: I am so sorry.
Halley: Are you retarded? You're stupid, right? Okay, you're literally asking me to help you take away my fucking kid!
DFC: This is what's best right now. Halley, calm down.
Halley: Calm down? Calm down? You want me to fucking help, right?! You want me to fucking help! Get the fuck out of my house!

Meanwhile, Moonee is holding her own with another official.

Halley [to the DFC woman]: You let her just run away?!
DFC: Halley, will you please just...
Halley: And I'm the one who's unfit? FUCK YOU!!!!

...

Jancey: Moonee, what's wrong? You're scaring me, Moonee.
Moonee [crying]: You're my best friend. And this is may be the only time I'm going to see you again.
Jancey: What's going on?
Moonee [crying uncontrollably: I can't say it. Bye!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Few like to think about it, but one person's "darkest hour" may well be another person's "brightest hour".

And World War Two is no exception. For most of us, just how close Hitler and the Nazis came to world conquest could not possibly be a darker hour. But that's not how they thought about it though.

So, you either have a moral compass here that always points true north [if only in your head], or you grapple with a frame of mind in which any moral agenda can be rationalized. Merely by embracing a set of assumptions about the human condition in sync with your own particular political prejudices.

Me? I am myself an advocate of democracy and the rule of law. The Nazis were anything but in that boat. So, my own political prejudices are clearly in the camp with those who react to "darkest hour" in this film as basically pitch black.

Just how close did the Allies come to losing this war?

As for the tagline, "He wasn't their first choice, but he became their last hope", this prompts you to consider just how much weight should be [can be] given to the focus being placed on the "one man" theory of history. One man in the midst of a conflict that was truly of epic proportions. So much is at stake. You can't help but ponder what the outcome might have been had another man [or woman] been there in his place.

After all, what if it had been Viscount Halifax? How might that have changed the world we live in today? In a sense it's like speculating on the difference between President Hillary Clinton and President Donald Trump. If only the stakes back then being considerably more grave.

And then of course with films of this nature that enormous gap [as some insist] between what we see up on the screen and what in fact actually unfolded "in reality".

IMDb

Gary Oldman spent a year studying Winston Churchill and his mannerisms before starting on the film.

By a sad irony, John Hurt was ill with cancer when he was set to portray Neville Chamberlain, Britain's ousted Prime Minister who was dying of cancer in 1940. However, in an interview Gary Oldman said that because Hurt was so ill, he never made it to a reading and never got to film a scene. The movie was still dedicated to Hurt, as it would have been his final cinematic project.

Gary Oldman revealed on The Graham Norton Show (2007) that he smoked £30,000 worth of cigars on set (about 12 cigars a day) while in character as Churchill, developed nicotine poisoning and had a colonoscopy during the Christmas filming break.

Extensive makeup was used to transform Gary Oldman into Winston Churchill, but to call this "aging" makeup would not be entirely accurate. In May 1940, Churchill was 65 years and six months old. Oldman turned 59 during filming.

In March 2018, the black British historian David Olusoga, known for his presenting work on the BBC, added his voice to criticism of Winston Churchill following his renewed profile in Darkest Hour, blaming him for war crimes in Africa and the Bengal Famine. Referring to Churchill's heroic portrayal in the film, Olusoga said: "Certain people, we only want to hear the good things that they do. Certain events, we only want to hear the stories that we're familiar with. And other people want to tell different stories, so we have this conflict. I think these are the history wars we are having." He also said: "So while I'm personally glad that Churchill overcame Halifax in early 1940 and it was Churchill who faced the Nazis that year and the years that followed, that doesn't mean that he wasn't somebody that was responsible, or largely responsible, for the Bengal famine of 1943-44. It doesn't mean that he wasn't someone who took part in things we would consider war crimes in Africa. It doesn't mean that his views, the things he espoused, weren't shocking to members of his Cabinet, never mind to people at the time. We're going to have to accommodate the fact that these things are true, and there are two sides to these stories and we're not good at it.

Winston Churchill often disappeared from Downing Street or the Cabinet War Rooms and appeared somewhere in London, where he would talk to the public and find out what they were thinking. However, there is no record of him ever doing this on an underground train.

Objecting to the way in which Churchill was portrayed in this film, a group of anti-racist protesters demonstrated at the Churchill-themed "Blighty Cafe" in London in late January 2018. Ironically, this protest and the media coverage led to the previously obscure café becoming far more popular.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4555426/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkest_Hour_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/4pNOCzV5jG0

Darkest Hour [2017]
Directed by Joe Wright

Title card: 9 May 1940. Hitler has invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark and Norway. 3 million German troops are now poised on the Belgian border, ready to conquer the rest of Europe. In Britain, Parliament has lost faith in its leader, Neville Chamberlain. The search for a replacement has already begun.

...

Chamberlain: As the Opposition refuse to join any government headed by me, we must now select my successor, someone with new strength to form a coalition government. I will step down tomorrow, but, uh, I did want my own party, the gentlemen I most respect, to know first.
Man: Yeah. And it must be Halifax.
Man: Hear, hear. There's no question. Our foreign secretary. Halifax.
Man: Yeah, of course. No contest. Halifax.
Halifax: Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate your confidence in me. However, my time has not yet come.
Man: Then who?
Cabinet secretary: But, on whomever the task may fall, he shall be required to explore every avenue.
Chamberlain: Including that of diplomatic talks.
Cabinet secretary: Indeed. Towards the restoration of peace in Europe.
Chamberlain: Well, gentlemen, there is only one candidate...only one man the Opposition will accept.
Men: Oh no no no. No. No, this is totallly absurd.

Cue the reason for their reaction.

Elizabeth: Excuse me....there's a telegram.
Clemmie: Shh...
Elizabeth [after a pause]: It's from the Palace.

...

Churchill: No. Since the nursery. But do the public want me?
Clemmie: It's your own party to whom you'll have to prove yourself.
Churchill: Ah, I'm getting the job only because the ship is sinking. It-it's not a gift; it's revenge.

...

Churchill: My poor judgment.
Clemmie: No, your lack of vanity.
Churchill: And my iron will.
Churchill: Ho, ho, ho.

...

King: Then why have I been forced to send for Churchill?
Chamberlain: Because he is the only member of our party who has the support of the Opposition.
King: His record is a litany of catastrophe. Gallipoli, 25,000 dead, the India policy, the Russian Civil War, the Gold Standard, the abdication, and now this Norway adventure. What's that, 1,800 men?
Chamberlain: One aircraft carrier, two cruisers, seven destroyers and a submarine.
King: Winston lacks judgment.
Chamberlain: He was right about Hitler.
King: Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

...

Anthony: Prime Minister. How is the king?
Churchill: Anxious. He's never forgiven me for supporting his brother's marriage to Wallis Simpson.
Anthony: You only have to meet him once a week.
Churchill: Oh, but that's like saying you only have to have your tooth pulled once a week.

...

Man [in Parliament to another]: Look to Chamberlain's handkerchief. If he waves it at the end of Churchill's speech, we show approval. If not, keep quiet.

...

Churchill [addressing Parliament]: We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, "What is our policy?" I say it is to wage war by sea, land and air with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us. To wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. Oh, you ask, uh, "What is our aim?" I can answer in one word. Victory. Victory at all costs. Victory, in spite of all terror. Victory, however long and-and hard the road may be. For without victory, there can be no survival.

Cue Chamberlain not waving his handkerchief.

Churchill [noting the reaction of Parliament to his address]: Contempt.
Anthony: We have to start somewhere.
Churchill: Snap.

...

Halifax: "Our policy is to wage war." "At all costs. No survival. " Good God, he's incapable of even pronouncing the word "peace," let alone entering into negotiations.
Chamberlain: Awful, the thought that I shall never see my country at peace again. I have cancer.
Halifax: Oh, Neville.
Chamberlain: Uh, Winston must be removed from office.
Halifax: If we can get him to declare that he refuses to even consider peace negotiations with Germany, you and I would perhaps have clear grounds to resign. That would force a vote of no confidence. The party couldn't countenance that.You're the chairman, for heaven's sake. He'd be finished.
Chamberlain: And you would agree to be prime minister.
Halifax: Well...with Winston out of the way, who can say? But the important thing, Neville, is that your policies would be back on the table. Peace and the protection of our nation.
Chamberlain: On record.
Chamberlain: He must declare, on record, his refusal to engage in peace talks. We must have it in writing.

How bleak did things get?

General: Belgium and Holland may fall at any hour.
Churchill: And the French?
General: The entire French Ninth Army, some 200,000 men, have capitulated.
Churchill: All of them?
General: Capitulated. Deserted. It was a rout. All our land forces, roughly 300,000 men, are now in full retreat.
Churchill: Air cover? For our troops?
General: The Luftwaffe control the skies. We simply don't have enough planes to challenge them. In fact, I strongly recommend we stop sending our precious fighter planes to be wasted in France. Save them for our own defense.
Churchill: And our navy sits idle, neutralized, useless.
Admiral: Our fleets no sooner come within their range than we come under blistering air attack. Well, their speed is devastating.
General: Panzer tanks moving rapidly westward through the center.
Churchill: Oh. Well, they will have to pause for fuel supplies.
General: This is not the last war, sir. Their tanks can stop for fuel at a petrol station.
Churchill: Petrol station?
General: The road to Paris now lies open. Seven million refugees are on the move. Collectively, we are looking at the collapse of Western Europe in the next few days. Should the public be told?
Churchill: Not yet. First, we must rouse our old friends to an heroic resistance. France must be saved.

We know how that went.

Churchill: I do not believe that this...this, uh...Panzer breakthrough is a real invasion.
French official: Not a real invasion?
Churchill: No. As long as their tank crews are not supported by infantry units, th-they are... merely little flags stuck on a map. Because the tank crews cannot support themselves. No. I-I refuse to see, in this spectacular raid of the German tank, a real invasion.

Members of Pariliament react to Churchill thus far:

Man: He's an actor, in love with the sound of his own voice.
Man: I love to listen to him. But we must never take his advice. Has a hundred ideas a day. Four of them are good, the other 96 downright dangerous.
Man: His father was the same...great orator, but...
Man: Until he lost his mind to syphilis. How nations suffer for the sins of their fathers. My opinion? At this critical juncture for the empire, we have a drunkard at the wheel. Wakes with a scotch, bottle of champagne for lunch, another one at dinner. Brandy and port until the wee hours. I wouldn't let him borrow my bicycle.
Man: He's a Conservative who defects to the Liberals, lobs grenades at us for ten years, then flops Conservative again as it bloody suits him. Sorry, but he stands for one thing. Himself.

...

Halifax: We may have to replace him, Bertie.
King: Replace him?
Halifax We must strive for peace so that every son and daughter of this land can emerge from this crisis with something recognizable as home.
King: Spoken like a true prime minister.

...

Aide: You need to reply to the Lord Privy Seal.
Churchhill: Uh... uh, uh, tell the Lord Privy Seal I am sealed in the privy. And I can only deal with one shit at a time.

...

Churchill: The broadcast is tonight, so don't spare me, Anthony. Be frank.
Anthony: Mm. I don't think so.
Churchill: You, uh... you don't think so what?
Anthony: You're suggesting we're somehow winning. We're not.
Churchill: No, but, uh, it will inspire them.
Anthony: Winston, I know...
Churchill: Anthony, Anthony. I am going to imbue them with a.. a-a spirit of feeling they don't yet know they have.

...

Churchill [addressing the nation for the first time]: Side by side, the British and French peoples have advanced.
Churchill: To rescue not only Europe...
Halifax [listening]: How bloody dare he.
Churchill: ...But mankind from the foulest and most soul-destroying tyranny which has ever darkened and stained the pages of history. But now one bond unites us all. To wage war until victory is won, and never to surrender ourselves to servitude and shame. Whatever the cost and the agony may be, conquer we must, as conquer we shall.

...

Clemmie: Oh, I thought you did marvelously.
Churchill: The last ten years, I was the only one who told them the truth. Until tonight. There is no advance. It's a shambles. We're in full retreat.
Clemmie: But would you be serving them tonight by denying them their sleep and...and terrifying their children?
Churchill: What, even if the terror is coming?
Clemmie: Because the terror is coming. There's time enough for the truth.

...

Elizabeth: Prime Minister. Sir.
Churchill: Yes, what is it?
Elizabeth: Um... perhaps... Um... look, I'm... I'm not sure if you know this, but, um... uh, but the way you're doing your "V for Victory" sign...
Churchill: Hmm?
Elizabeth: Well, in the poorer quarters, that gesture means something else.
Churchill: What does it mean?
Elizabeth: Well, I wouldn't like to say, sir.
Churchill: I was captured by the Boer. I spent time in a South African prison.
Churchill: Up your bum? Bum. Up your...
[he bursts out laughing]
Elizabeth: The way you're doing it, sir, yes, sir. But if you turn it around, that's fine. I wouldn't like millions of people to take it the wrong way.

Things then get bleaker still...

General: As of 2000 hours last night, the Germans have encircled 60 British, Belgian and French divisions. On our part, all our forces under Lord Gort have withdrawn or are trying to withdraw to the French coast, to Dunkirk, where we cannot reach them.
Churchill: How many of our men are trapped?
General: All of them. Our country's entire professional soldiery. And we can see no clear way to rescue them.
Churchill: General, are-are you telling me that we shall have lost the entire British Army by the next few days?
General: That's correct. The German force is superior in every regard and only 50 miles from the coast. They are pushing us into the sea.
Churchill: No, the Germans must not reach the sea. Not...not before we evacuate our-our men. Ismay, what have you got for us?
Ismay: As it stands, I cannot see we have much hope of getting any of our forces out in time. Churchill: Not a man?
Ismay: Well, we... well, we cannot be so, uh, totally at their mercy.
Churchill: Wh-What's our next step?
[no one responds]
Churchill: Anyone? Come on, speak!

...

Halifax: Prime Minister, I have reservations.
Churchill: Well, who is free of reservations?
Halifax: About unnecessary sacrifice, when there is an available alternative.
Churchill: What alternative?
Halifax: Italy has offered to mediate peace talks between ourselves and Germany. I already indicated that, provided the liberty and independence of the British Empire was assured, we would consider any proposal.
Churchill: With, uh...with Hitler holding the...the whip hand. Do you really think he would honor our liberty and independence?
Halifax: It would be in his interest to do so, sir. Because the British Empire...
Churchill: The only thing to do is to show that maniac that he cannot conquer this island, and for that we need an army!!

...

Churchill: I take full responsibility.
Halifax: Really?
Churchill: Really! Yes, sir. It is the reason... I sit in this chair!
Halifax: Well, surely, before you take full responsibility for the deaths of 4,000 men, you'd wish to consider every available avenue. What... what is this? What is your mind on the principle of peace talks, sir?

...

Halifax [now alone with Churchill and Chamberlain]: Winston...we are facing certain defeat on land, the annihilation of our army, and imminent invasion. We must be rational.
Churchill: We are a seagoing nation. Have been since the Bronze Age. The Channel is ours. It's our moat, our battlement, and the German doesn't recognize an expanse of water greater than a bloody lake. They have first to reach this island, Edward.
Halifax: Where men, women and children, whom we will have failed despicably in our duty of protection, will be entirely defenseless...
Churchill: And whose fault is that?
Halifax: ...against the largest army the world has ever seen. Furthermore, once France falls, Germany can concentrate on aircraft production. They will then have the French fleet as well. What is to stop Herr Hitler then, Winston? Words, words, words alone. If you will not permit any talk of peace, then I shall be forced...
Chamberlain: Might we not allow Edward simply to meet the Italian Ambassador Bastianini, discuss a possible role as mediators between us and Germany, and find out their price? Sir?

Then this:

Churchill [on the phone]Uh... uh, listen, Mr. President. I'm, uh, uh, telephoning about your, uh, navy ships. If you could loan us just, uh... uh, 50 older destroyers. Or even 40 would do.
Roosevelt: Well, I, uh...I did ask around, but just not possible, I'm afraid. The Neutrality Act we signed last year has tied my hands. Just can't swing it. I tried.
Churchill: Uh, well, can I, uh, um...Do I have your, uh, permission, uh, to send, uh, an aircraft carrier to pick up the P-40 fighter planes we purchased from you? Mr. President? Well, you-you've got me there again. New law preventing transshipment of military equipment. Uh, but we paid for them. We-we paid for them with the money that we...that we borrowed from you.
Roosevelt: I'm so, so sorry, Winston.
Churchill: [more ominously]: I need not impress upon you the...the trouble faced by the Western Hemisphere, uh, without your support in some fashion.
Roosevelt: I know. I know. You are on my mind day and night. Look, we could possibly....
Churchill: Uh, Mr. President...We are facing, uh, the gravest odds.
Roosevelt: We could take your planes to about a mile from the Canadian border. And then, if you send across a team of horses from Canada...nothing motorized...then you could pull them over the border yourself. How does that sound?
Churchill [more or less incredulous]: Horses? Um, you-you did say, uh, a-a team of horses?
Roosevelt: Well, I guess you could push them yourself. Damn things have wheels. Up to you. We could do that, Prime Minister. Prime Minister?
Churchill: Uh, uh, anything you could do at this time, uh, Franklin, would be most welcome.
Roosevelt: Good night to you, Winston. It must be late there.
Churchill: In more ways than you could possibly know.

...

Churchill [on the phone]: Uh, listen, Bertie. Uh, we need to evacuate our boys. Uh, the Navy is saying that with one cruiser and six destroyers and with the... the Luftwaffe controlling the skies above, we-we'll be lucky to get ten percent out. I want you to order a-an assembly of boats.
Churchill: Uh, yes. Um...Civilian boats. Uh, as many as you can get your hands on. Uh, Longley's clipper, Fearnley's gin palace, anyone with a pleasure craft bigger than 30 foot that can get to France. Bertie, you still there?
Churchill: Help me stage this thing, Bertie. Huh? We must at least try to bring some of our boys home.
Admiral: Well, I'll have the BBC issue the order.
Churchill: Good. Oh, and-and, Bertie...We need a name for this operation.

...

King: How do you manage drinking during the day?
Churchill: Practice.

...

King: Your position in Parliament, I...I'm told, is not strong.
Churchill: Uh, my party... resents the way Chamberlain was pushed aside. And many others doubt me. They want Halifax still, but why get rid of the organ grinder and replace him with the monkey?

...

King: Perhaps it's because you scare people.
Churchill: Who?
King: You scare me.
Churchill: What nonsense. What could possibly be scary about me?
King: One never knows what's going to come out of your mouth next. Something that will flatter, something that will wound.

...

Halifax: Prime Minister. The question of peace talks.
Churchill: Oh, we must hold our nerve. Signal only that we intend to fight it out until the end. A peace offer, uh, - telegraphs our weakness.
Anthony: Agreed.
Churchill: And even if we were beaten, we should be no worse off than we should be if we were now to abandon the struggle. Let us therefore avoid being dragged down the slippery slope with talk of a negotiated peace.
Halifax: Slippery slope? The only...
Churchill: I suspect Italy and Germany...
Halifax: The only slippery slope...
Churchill: ...wish to get us so deeply involved in negotiations that we should be unable to turn back.
Halifax: Nonsense. Bastianini informed me...
Churchill: I propose...
Halifax: The only slippery slope...
Churchill: Would you stop interrupting me while I am interrupting you?!!

...

Halifax: The deadly danger here is this romantic fantasy of fighting to the end. What is the end, if not the destruction of all things? There's nothing heroic in going down fighting if it can be avoided. Nothing even remotely patriotic in death or glory if the odds are firmly on the former. Nothing inglorious in trying to shorten a war that we are clearly losing.
Churchill: Losing?! Europe is still...
Halifax: Europe is lost...And before our forces are wiped out completely, now is the time to negotiate, in order to obtain the best conditions possible. Hitler will not insist on outrageous terms. He will know his own weaknesses. He will be reasonable.
Churchill [enraged]: When will the lesson be learned? When will the lesson be learned?! How many more dictators must be, uh, wooed, appeased...good God, given immense privileges before we learn? You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth!

...

Halifax [now alone with Churchill]: If you will not permit further exploration of a peace agreement, then you will have my resignation.
Churchill: Oh, don't be absurd, Edward. I need you. You know I do.
Halifax: I will not stand by to watch another generation of young men die at the bloody altar of your hubris.
Churchill: Oh, and you would have us die as lambs! Was Gallipoli not enough for you? How dare you! Our troops were chewing barbed wire in Flanders, and I saw it! Opening a second front, outflanking the Turks was a...a serious military idea, and it could have damn well worked if the... if the admirals and the First Sea Lord hadn't dithered away our element of surprise.
Halifax: Choice is yours, Winston. You have 24 hours to enter into peace talks, or I shall resign.

...

Halifax [to Chamberlain]: I told him. It shook him. Gave him 24 hours. I don't expect he'll agree, so I shall resign first. You then follow...that's critical if we're to trigger a vote of no confidence in the House. I shall announce it. The king will back us.

...

Elizabeth: May I be excused?
Churchill [seeing tears in Elizabeth's eyes]: You may not. What is this about?
Elizabeth: No one tells us anything. It's all classified. We hear scraps, and it's worse than knowing nothing.
Churchill: What would you like to know?
Elizabeth: How many men will survive?
Churchill: Come with me.

...

Churchill [to Elizabeth in the map room]: The German army controls every French port except Dunkirk here and Calais here to the west, where the garrison under Brigadier Nicholson is drawing fire and delaying the German advance on Dunkirk. At both points, our troops are encircled. Now, we are still trying to clear Dunkirk Harbor of wrecked ships so that we can then land the boats we need to get our... our boys off those beaches. But enemy aircraft is attacking us constantly. Our-our only hope in Dunkirk is thick cloud cover to thwart these attacks, but the skies remain clear. And even then, I am told we will need a... a miracle to get even ten percent of our men out. Courage, Miss Layton. Courage.

...

General [to Churchill]: We must prepare for the imminent invasion of our island. We recommend that the country should be warned and roused to the immediate danger, and that all personnel required to put Britain in a state of defense should be mobilized without a moment's delay.

...

Chamberlain: You are refusing to grasp the realities of how precarious our position is. Our entire army is about to be wiped out. Terms must be struck.
Churchill: Anthony?
[Anthony says nothing]
Churchill: Then it seems we...we-we have no choice but to at least consider the path of negotiation. If-if Hitler's peace terms are, um, overlordship of Central Europe, return of certain German colonies, a-and if he will leave us our independence, th-then I-I'd be grateful to get out of our present...difficulties. But it is unlikely that he will make such an offer. But-but if I were told what the German terms were...well, then I-I'd be prepared to-to consider them.
Halifax: Thank you, Prime Minister.

...

Churchill [more to himself as he stares down at a newspaper headline, HITLER DEFIANT RUTHLESS IN ATTACK]:...that corporal...that child. Monster of wickedness. That butcher. That savage. Monstrous savage. That wicked...housepainter. Housepainter!

...

Churchill [looking down at a photograph]: Uh, your beau?
Elizabeth: My brother.
Churchill: Where is he now?
Elizabeth: He was falling back on Dunkirk. But he never made it.

...

King: Belgium? Collapsed. Norway? Holland. France any hour. And the mood of Parliament?
Churchill: Fear. Panic.
King: And you? Are you not afraid?
Churchill: I am, most terribly. Support in the War Cabinet for the campaign of resistance has collapsed. Uh, later today, I-I will address the House accordingly.
King: You have my support.
King: You have my support. I confess, I...had some reservations about you at first, but while some in this country dreaded your appointment, none...none dreaded it like Adolf Hitler. Whomever can strike fear into that brute heart is worthy of all of our trust. We shall work together. You shall have my support at any hour. Beat the buggers.
Churchill: I will go to Parliament. But without support in my own party, I must sue for peace.

...

Churchhill [in the war room]: There is no doubt that if we falter at all in the leading of the nation, we should all be hurled out of office. I am sure now that every minister on both sides of the House is... is ready to be killed quite soon, and have all his family and possessions destroyed, rather than give in. In this, they represent almost all the people. And it falls to me in these coming days and months to express their sentiments. There shall be no negotiated peace. And you must each do now as you see fit. If you will excuse me, gentlemen...I believe I am due to address Parliament. And I have yet to write a word of my speech.

...

Halifax: We must both now resign, force a vote of no confidence.
Chamberlain: Well, let us go to the Commons first, uh...join our colleagues. Then speak after the prime minister's address.

...

Churchill [to the Parliament]: Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous states have...have fallen or may fall into the...the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of the Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end! We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and the oceans. We shall fight with...with growing confidence and growing strengths in the air. We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender! And if... And if...And if...which I-I-I do not for a moment believe, this island or large part of it were... were-were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British fleet, would carry on the struggle. Until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old!

Cue Chamberlain's handkerchief.

Man: What just happened?
Halifax: He just mobilized the English language and sent it into battle.

Title card: Almost all of the 300,000 troops at Dunkirk were carried home by Winston's civilian fleet.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

A terrorist attack. They happen over and over and over again in our volatile world. And, when they do, some are targeted. While, in other instances, some just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They shuffle off this mortal coil in however one might explain a death of this sort.

Of course the people who carry out the attack may or may not see it as "terrorism". And, even if they do, they rationalize it in the name of one or another God. Or ideology. Or "cause".

Unless, perhaps, here, it's all wrapped around the criminal element?

When these events do occur, we are sometimes given the names of those who were killed. Perhaps a brief profile of "who they once were". Then the friends and the families and the loved ones they left behind to grieve.

But suppose, as one of them, you seek to avenge this death? What might that entail?

But who are these terrorists? Are their motives embedded more in the world of drug trafficking...or in political ideology or religion? Or race?

And then the part about the "European identity" in a world awash in "immigrants."

In any event the plot here revolves around revenge. And that always revolves around the extent to which you are able to sympathize [even empathize] with the one who is now all out to enforce it. Thus even if you were never able to exact revenge against those who have wronged you, you may be able to embed yourself vicariously in the protagonist here.

Then it comes down to whether there either are or are not twists and turns in the plot that you never saw coming. In other words, how ambiguous are the characters and the events being depicted? Then count the cliches.

Also, as one reviewer noted of the title: "The German title 'From nothing' better expressed as The Emptiness. Literally it is 'out of nothing'..."

In other words, the "existential" element.

From the director of Head-On above.

IMDb

The film is divided in the three chapters "The Family", "Justice" and "The Sea" and cinematographer Rainer Klausmann - shooting with the ARRI Alexa - created a slightly different look for each one. The first chapter was shot mostly outside with a mobile ARRI Alexa in the 'Super-16' mode to get a rougher look. The second chapter with the many courtroom scenes used new and extremely sharp anamorphic lenses by ARRI and was shot in a static way. For the third and final chapter, which is set in Greece, Klausmann chose old vintage lenses to get a softer look. The short 'home video' segments shown in each chapter were shot on regular smartphones.

trailer: https://youtu.be/BKBqOE3WNu0

In The Fade [Aus dem Nichts] 2017
Written in part and directed by Fatih Akin

Katja [to a driver that almost hits her and her son]: You fucker!
Rocco [her son]: Fucking son-of-a-bitch fucker!
Katja: You OK?
Rocco: Yeah.
Katja: "Son-of-a-bitch fucker?" Did you get that from Dad?
Rocco: No, from my violin lesson.

...

Katja: Lock that bike up or they'll steal it.
Edda Toller: I'm coming right back.

...

Police woman [to Katja in her car]: The street's blocked off.
Katja: My husband's office is right there.
Police woman [handing her a card]: Call this number.
Katja: What happened?
Police woman: An explosion. Move along.

...

Detective [to Katja]: The bodies can't be identified. We need to do a DNA test.

...

Reetz [chief inspector]: Was your husband religious?
Katja: Excuse me?
Reetz: Was he a Muslim?
Katja: My husband is agnostic.
Reetz: Was he Kurdish? I'm Kurdish!
Father: Why do you ask that?
Reetz: Was he politically active? Did he raise money for any groups?
Katja: No, my husband wasn't politically active.
Reetz: Did he have enemies?
Katja: What kind of enemies?
Reetz: A bomb was set off in front of his office. We have to assume he was the target.

...

Katja: I want to see my loved ones.
Reetz: They're no longer people. Only body parts, Mrs. Sekerci.

...

Katja: Do you think they suffered?
Sister: I'm sure they didn't feel a thing.
Katja: Imagine Rocco lying on the ground, seeing his own limbs around him. Imagine how scared he was.
Sister: They didn't feel a thing, Katja. They died immediately.

...

Katja: What are they saying?
Sister [reading something from the internet]: "The nail bomb attack killed convicted drug dealer..."
Katja: Motherfuckers.
Sister: "... Nuri S., 37, and his son Rocco, six. An Islamist or political motive has been ruled out."

...

Katja: Was Nuri still dealing?
Danilo: He'd stopped that.
Katja: Was it about protection money?
Danilo: Nuri could've handled that.
Katja: Was he involved in anything? Anything you know of?
Danilo: He wouldn't have put you guys at risk.
Katja: So who did it?

...

Katja [to Danili]: The Nazis did it. Who else would have a motive?

...

Reetz: Any idea who might've done it?
Katja: Nazis did it.
Reetz: How so?
Katja: His office is in a Turkish neighborhood.
Reetz: Were there ever racist incidents there? Like a pig's head in front of the mosque?
Katja: Not that I know of.

...

Katja: You want me to incriminate my husband and confirm your theory.
Reetz: What theory?
Katja: That he was still dealing drugs!
Reetz: For months, the drugs unit has been surveilling suspects. Some repeatedly called your husband. Can you explain that?
Katja: My husband interpreted for offenders. He had to speak to them. It was his job! Why are you investigating my husband?
Reetz: We're not investigating him.
Katja: He didn't murder anyone! He was murdered!
Reetz: We have to assume that your husband maintained his links to the criminal world. We believe he engaged in criminal activities with the murderers. Maybe there was a disagreement, and your son and husband were victims of revenge.
Katja: So, who did it?
Reetz: The Turkish mafia. Or the Kurdish one. Maybe the Albanians.

That's the world we live in today.

Danilo [in voicemail nessage]: Hi Katja, it's Danilo. I tried your cell. Listen, you were right. Nazis did it. They've been arrested. Call me.

This is right after she attempted to commit suicide.

Danilo [to Katja pointing to the jail]: They're rotting in there.

...

Woman [at trial to the court while Katja listens]: The first danger is the shock wave caused by the blast. The child suffered inhalation trauma in the upper respiratory tract, and also barotrauma with acute distention and peripheral bleeding in both lungs. The second danger is debris and shrapnel. The child had a gaping 3 cm wound in the central upper abdomen caused by a jagged metal fragment that was still embedded. It also pierced the eighth vertebra. The resulting wound ripped the small and large intestines. It also tore the liver and totally severed the abdominal artery. The torso sustained over 14 small, round and linear wounds with nails up to 10 cm long embedded at various depths. The third danger is the immense heat. The center of the explosion briefly reaches up to 1,000 C. There were extensive burns to the front of the body, head, face, torso, arms and thighs. The hair was burnt to the scalp at the front of the skull. The eyes also sustained burns and had totally melted. The right forearm was roughly severed at the elbow joint. The limb was found 6 meters from the body....
Katja: I can't take anymore.
Danilo: You want out?
[she nods and walks towards the door; before reaching it though she turns and lurches towards the defendant hitting her]
Katja: Look at me, you cunt! I'll kill you!

...

Chief Judge: Mrs. Sekerci, I can well understand your emotional reaction, your outrage. But this court deals only in facts. Should there be another incident, the court must eject you for the rest of the trial for disorderly conduct. Even as co-plaintiff. So long as the accused are not found guilty by a court, they are presumed innocent. Do you understand?
[Katja nods]

...

Chief Judge: Mr. Moller, as a father and direct relative, you may refuse to testify against your son and daughter-in-law. Is that clear?
Mr. Moller: Yes.
Judge: But you wish to testify?
Mr. Moller: Yes.
Mr. Moller: I live in Meldorf, Schleswig-Holstein. The last storm felled a tree in my garden. I went to the garage to fetch the chainsaw. It's on my property, but my son uses it because I have no car. He lives next door, but we avoid each other.
Chief Judge: Why do you avoid each other?
Mr. Moller: We fell out over his worldview.
Chief Judge: What is his worldview?
Mr. Moller: The one that led to these accusations.
Chief Judge: Could you elucidate?
Mr. Moller: My son reveres Adolf Hitler.

...

Mr. Moller: May I add something?
Mr. Moller [turning to face Katja]: I want to take the opportunity to offer my condolences to the victims. I'm so sorry for what happened. You never get over losing a relative. What my son did is wicked, cowardly, and stupid.

...

Sister: How's the trial going?
Katja: They'll get their punishment, I promise you.

...

Katja: They're all in it together.
Danilo: A global Nazi network, all butt-fucking each other.
Katja: Tell it to the judge.
Danilo: About the butt-fucking? Mm. He knows that.
Katja: You should still tell him.

...

Danilio [to the Court]: Witness Sekerci described a woman who left a bike with a top case at the scene of the explosion. She did so before forensics established that the top case contained the bomb. Forensics confirmed her statement about the bike, that it was new and unlocked, and about the top case. They also confirmed that the woman Mrs. Sekerci described must be the perpetrator. Mrs. Sekerci described this woman in the same detail as the new bike with its top case. That woman was the accused. She's married to the co-accused, whose garage happened to contain traces of the same explosive that blew up outside Nuri ekerci's office. No drug, drug test or psychological examination can relativize this fact. And anyone who tries to do so has the same base motives as the accused did who murdered my client's husband and child. And it disgusts me to have to play the defense's game. Thank you.

...

Chief Judge: On behalf of the people, the court returns the following verdict. The accused, Andr Mller and Edda Mller, are acquitted.

...

Chief Judge: Today's acquittal is not based on the court's belief that the defendants are innocent, but that the evidence presented leaves reasonable doubt as to their guilt. Based on the "in dubio pro reo" principle, this doubt requires that we acquit them. The court considered that the defendants did not probably have sole access to the garage. Others may have entered. The key was accessible. One set of fingerprints could not be identified. Co-plaintiff Sekerci stated that she recognized Edda Moller as the person she saw at the crime scene. We were unable to confirm the accuracy of her observation. The co-plaintiff exercised her right to refuse examination to assess her ability to testify.

...

Woman: Can you give me your number so I can call you if I see your friends?
Katja: Sure. It's, um, 0049
Woman: And what is your name?
Katja: Birgit.
Woman [trying the number]: It's not working.
[Katja hits the gas to speed away]
Woman: Stay here, you fucking bitch!

...

Edda Moller: She's not here by chance.
Andre Moller: She's playing detective, looking for evidence on the Greek alibi.
Edda: Does she know we're here?
Andre: How would she?
Edda: She found that Greek pig.
Andre: He has a website.
Edda: Let's go home.
Andre: They'll stick cameras in our faces!
Edda: What if she finds us?
Andre: If that Turk-whore comes near us, I'll smash her skull! I'll put her in the grave with them!

...

Danilo [on the phone]: Katja, where are you? I've left you 1,000 voice mails.
Katja: I know.
Danilo: Let's file an appeal. The deadline's tomorrow, I have to submit the papers.
Katja: I don't want to anymore.
Danilo: I know it feels like it's over, but believe me, it isn't. We'll keep going, Katja, we'll keep going. We'll get them on an appeal. We'll take this to Federal Court. They'll get life. Katja, listen to me. Come to my office tomorrow as early as possible. Everything's ready. We'll go through the papers together. I need your signature. Are you coming?
Katja: Yeah, OK.
Danilo: Good. Can you be here at eight?
Katja: I can do eight.
Danilo: Great. The fight goes on Katja.

...

Titlecard: BETWEEN 2000 AND 2007 IN GERMANY, THE "NATIONAL SOCIALIST UNDERGROUND" SHOT NINE PEOPLE FROM IMMIGRANT BACKGROUNDS AND A POLICEWOMAN AND CARRIED OUT MULTIPLE BOMBINGS. THE SOLE MOTIVE BEHIND THEIR ATTACKS WAS THEIR VICTIMS' NON-GERMAN ORIGINS.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Remember back in the days when insults were thought to be so reprehensible that a "gentleman" might be obligated to demand that a duel be fought in order to settle things once and for all?

An insult, in other words, could get you killed.

Today of course that is still around. But more so in some parts of the globe than others. There are still places where a man's personal honor [or the honor of his family or his ethnicity or his God] is simply not to be trifled with.

In Beirut, Lebanon for example. Between a Lebanese Christian and a Palestinian refugee. Tony and Yasser. An insult that lands the men in court; and then snowballs into a "media circus". An insult that goes all the way back to the 1975 Lebanese Civil War.

In other words, in Beirut [and still to this day], everything often revolves around the neighborhood that you are in. Different neighborhood, different rules.

So, how then does "the law" factor into all of it?

Bottom line: the lessons learned. About, among other things, religious and political and ethnic prejudices. As one reviewer put it, "Our own prejudices and preconceptions alter our views and reactions, often preventing us from standing in the other fellow's shoes."

And to think all of this begins here: "While Tony waters flowers on his balcony, the overflow sprays Yasser on the street below."

And then amidst all of this public drama the personal lives of all the characters get wrenched to and fro. Their lives come to revolve not around what is necessarily true or just, but around what one is necessarily expected to say and do in any particular situation. Justice here is often only one or another political and religious and ethnic contraption. Everything gets all tangled up in prefabricated personal, political and religious narratives that can go back literally centuries.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insult_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/QEQDZL6bAXo

The Insult [L'insulte] 2017
Written in part and directed by Ziad Doueiri

Speaker [at a rally]: If they ask you who's your President, tell them our President is Bachir Gemayel. The Christian Party...The Christian Party is like the Bible. You know, in the Bible, there's the Old Testament, and the New Testament. In the past, we used to say, only the Christian Party protects Beirut. Today, what do we say? The Christian Party supports the State!

God and the state. The rest is history.

Yasser [after getting sprayed with water]: There's a problem with your gutter. We need to look at it.
Tony: What kind of problem?
Yasser: People are getting sprayed.
Tony: Use the other side of the street.

...

Shirine [Tony's wife after Tony broke the new pipe Yasser installed]: What's going on?
Yasser [down on the street to Tony]: Fucking prick!

...

Talal [general manager of construction company]: Mr. Tony, from what I understand, your drainpipe was sticking out, he was trying to fiX it, but you broke it.
Tony: That's my balcony, my house.
Talal: City Hall asked us to fix all building violations. Your drainpipe is illegal. He's only doing his job.
Tony: That's no reason to insult me.
Talal: Of course not.
Tony: He thinks he's a hotshot. He's not! I'm warning you, he'd better apologize, or I'll sue him and your company.

...

Talal: [to Yasser]: We're in their neighborhood. We can't talk to them like that. We have to put up with them. He wants you to apologize. He's waiting. Do it, then fix his drainpipe.

...

Shirine: When will you finish?
Talal: In two months. That's why I hired Yasser. He gets the job done. He has a tough job. He's a bit moody. He gets carried away, but he's harmless. You know, life has become difficult. People are angry. That's why we should put things in perspective. Tell Mr. Tony that Yasser is sorry. And he presents his apologies.

...

Tony listens to a speaker on TV: "Because of their corrupt leadership, the Palestinians have become despised everywhere. Let them find another land to live in, other than Lebanon. Let them establish their own state, let them rule themselves, let them scatter in the Arab world. They may unite with Jordan, they may run to Iran, as long as they don't stay here."

...

Wife [of Yasser]: What complaint? What happened?
Talal: A misunderstanding with a tenant. Nothing serious. If the cops intervene, it'll be a problem. I want to resolve this.
Wife: What's going on?
Talal: It's about a gutter. Your husband goes to fix it, the tenant breaks it. He gets water on your husband, who calls him a fucking prick. The tenant wants an apology.
Wife: Which came first: the gutter or the prick?

...

Yasser: What shall I do, bend over?
Wife: Show some appreciation.
Yasser: I'm nobody's servant!
Wife: That's selfish. The world's not plotting against you.
Yasser: We are targeted.
Wife: Who's we?
Yasser: Me, you, all of us. We're the niggers of the Arab world.

...

Talal: Mr. Tony wants to turn the page. He wants to hear it from you.
Tony: You know what? You people are lousy bastards. Otherwise, you would've apologized. That explains your bad reputation. As the Jews say, "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
[Yasser turns and walks away]
Talal: Yasser, what's wrong with you? You want to get fired? I'll do it. I swear.
Tony: I wish Ariel Sharon had wiped you all out!
[Yasser lunges at him and punches him in the ribs]

...

Eli: A Christian suing a Palestinian? No lawyer will take this case. No one would dare.
Tony: I don't need a lawyer. I know I'm right.
Father [of Tony]: No, you're not. You're not right at all. What you said is unacceptable. That's how wars start.
Tony: Dad, are you saying he's right?
Father: I'm saying you're wrong. He just wanted to fix your gutter, but you humiliated him.
Tony: You're blaming me for a gutter? They fucked up this country, and you blame me for a gutter?!

And around and around they go.

Tony: Tell me why can't you go in there?
Policeman: That's how it is. We aren't authorized to enter Palestinian camps.
Tony: What authority do you have?
Policeman: It's political.

...

Wife: You insulted the police.
Tony: No, I insulted the situation.
Wife: "I wish Ariel Sharon..." How could you? To a Palestinian?
Tony: You don't understand. It's normal for you, but not for me. You think it's a perfect world?!

...

Talal: Drop your case. He gets out of jail and everything will be fine.
Tony: You still defend him.
Talal: Because he's a decent man. He doesn't deserve this. He doesn't belong in jail.
Tony: We don't solve this thing by pretending we love each other. That's not how it works.
Talal: It could.
Tony: I'm no Jesus Christ who'll turn the other cheek.

...

Judge: Why don't you have a lawyer?
Tony: Because I'm right.
Judge: Just because you say so doesn't mean it's true.

...

Judge: Mr. Yasser, you've been renovating buildings there for five weeks now. How do residents treat you?
Yasser: Well.
Judge: You know that in this town, every area has its own sensibilities, political, religious. Have you taken this into account?
Yasser: Yes.
Judge: How?
Yasser: I asked my workers to pray in a car park, to offend no one.
Judge: The fight with Mr. Tony is the first one you've had.
Yasser: Yes.
Judge: So why after five weeks of friendly relations, did you call Mr. Hanna a "fucking prick"?

...

Judge [making his ruling]: You broke the law by having an illegal pipe and breaking it after he fixed it. Case dismissed!
Judge: You may go, Mr. Yasser.
Tony: You're biased. You're acquitting a criminal.
Judge: Leave the courtroom.
Tony: Not before I get a fair trial.
Judge: Get out or I'll have you arrested.
Tony: For what? You're a corrupt judge and a fraud. I will sue you. I'll have you barred from this court and from every other court! It pays to be Palestinian! It pays to be Palestinian!

...

Wife: You weren't expecting it. Since neither of you told the judge the whole truth.
Yasser: The truth is I hit someone because of an insult.
Wife: If it were that simple, you'd still be in jail.
Yasser: The judge was biased. It's just that it was in my favor.
Wife: No, he understood it was about more than a gutter.

...

Shirine: How could you say that to the judge?
Tony: He was a biased judge.
Shirine: Appeal, but don't insult judges.
Tony: They're all in cahoots. The Palestinian was gloating the whole time.
Shirine: I didn't see that...He didn't tell the judge what you said!
Tony: Because he had the verdict in the pocket.

...

Company owner [of Yasser]: Who is he?
Talal: The foreman.
Owner: Palestinian.
Talal: I know, it's illegal.
Owner: You know where I stand on this issue. I'm with their cause. I share their grief. But not at the firm's expense.

...

Wajdi [Tony's lawyer]: We heard about your day in court. What you told the judge was ballsy.
Tony: I got carried away.
Wajdi: How could you not? An injustice was committed. But do me a favor, never go to court without a lawyer.
Tony: I didn't want to sue, counselor. All I wanted was an apology.
Wajdi: And he refused. You gave him ample time to apologize, and he beat you up. That's unacceptable. He beat up a Lebanese citizen. We cannot accept that.
Wajdi: To get an acquittal. Those people are sneaky, deceitful. They know how to turn the tables round. Aggressors paint themselves as victims, and you know who they learn it from.

...

Tony: I don't care about money.
Wajdi: What do you care about?
Tony: When we're done with him, I want him to say I'm 100 times worse than Ariel Sharon.
Wajdi: Let me ask you a question, why did you say, "I wish Ariel Sharon had wiped you all out?"
Tony: What's the big deal?
Tony: It felt right to say it.
Wajdi: That's not a good argument. Those words are loaded, Mr. Tony. What you said is very complex.
Tony: I don't understand.
Wajdi: The Palestinian cause is a whole different ball game. There's the UN, the NGOs, the humanitarian organizations...Everyone roots for the Palestinians. And don't forget, there are those who hate us. The Left, the liberals. By the way, many are Christians. They'd all be willing to skydive just to defend Yasser Salameh. It's trendy to defend those people....I want you to think carefully about what you said. That's what they'll focus on in court, not who spilled water, who beat whom, or who's the fucking prick, but why you said, "I wish Ariel Sharon had wiped you all out."

Meanwhile on the other side of town...

Nadine [lawyer for Yasser -- and Wajdi's daughter]: Mr. Yasser, what I'd like to know is why you didn't tell the judge what your opponent said?
Wife: My husband isn't a snitch.
Yasser: I called him a fucking prick.
Nadine: You can't compare prick with Sharon wiping you all out.
Yasser: He said, "I wish".
Yasser: He could have said: wiped you out, beat you up, or loved you. They're just words.
Nadine: So why were you upset? Those words change everything. They insult your nationality and identity. It could be considered a hate crime.
Yasser: Everyone hates and insults everybody.
Nadine: Insulting someone's identity is punishable by law. It means you can sue him.
Yasser: But I hit him.
Nadine: Because of what he said. Plus, he asked you to apologize. You went to do that....According to Article 228 of the penal code, even if a perpetrator exceeds the bounds of self-defense, he may be acquitted if he acted in extreme distress that hampered his judgment and self-control.
Yasser: Forget my distress. His child is fighting for her life.
Nadine: That's why you need a lawyer....Your opponent is appealing for his and his wife's health complications. If his baby dies, that's involuntary manslaughter. We're looking at ten years. You can manage this situation or let it manage you.

...

Shirine: I want those people out of my life.
Tony: Wajdi Webb has the case. We'll win.
Shirine: I don't care who wins. You let a stupid incident take hold of you.
Tony: I won't drop the case. Never.
Shirine: You go to court, you win, the guy gets life. Then what? And your baby? What about her? Did you ask her what she wants?
Tony: It's for her. I'm doing this for you, for the family.
Shirine: You're doing it for yourself!

...

Yasser: Did you have to?
Yasser: That's not right.
Nadine: You're accused of a crime you didn't commit.
Yasser: We're prying into private lives. We're exposing them in public. It's not right!
Nadine: What is right? They do it to us, we do it to them.

...

Wajdi: So basically, you hire Mr. Yasser, you help him out, and then he betrays you.
Witness: Yes. I was very hurt. He was ungrateful.
Wajdi: Ungrateful?
Witness: I took a risk when I hired him. You know, when you hire a Palestinian, you get accused of trying to settle half a million Palestinians here, and you know what that means.
Wajdi: No, can you explain?
Witness: You give Palestinians jobs here, they won't return to Palestine. The Israelis are happy, which makes you a traitor.
Wajdi: Thank you. No further questions.

...

Nadine [plays a tape of a speech from TV]: "For the sake of your children, so they don't end up living like the Palestinian refugee, and behaving like the Palestinian refugee, wandering the world, ruining everything in his path, drinking from our wells then spitting in them."
Nadine: That morning, Mr. Yasser went to Mr. Tony to apologize. Once he heard that speech, he changed his mind.
Wajdi [for Tony]: I find it patriotic.
Nadine: For a Palestinian, it's offensive.
Wajdi: Offensive? We often hear: "the road to Palestine runs through Beirut".
Nadine: My client didn't say this phrase.
Wajdi: Neither did my client! We hear speeches all the time. Incendiary speeches, subversive speeches, sexist speeches....We live in the Middle East. The word "offensive" was born here. It's not up to Mr. Tony to consider people's sensibilities. That's their problem, not his.

...

Nadine: I wish to reveal the words that pushed Mr. Yasser to hit Mr. Tony.
Nadine: The words are: "I wish Ariel Sharon had wiped you all out."
Voices from the courthouse: Yes! He should have! Take that back! That's disgraceful!
Judge: Order in the court!

...

Nadine: Mr. Tony, did you know these words violated Mr. Yasser's dignity and identity, and are a hate crime?
Wajdi: Hate crime? For a humiliation? Which humiliation is this? The one in 1948? 1956? The Six-Day War? The Yom Kippur War? The 1982 War? They're all humiliations. My client can't be blamed for those mishaps.
Nadine: The Palestinian tragedy is not a mishap.
Wajdi: It was not a mishap, it was a catastrophe!

...

Shirine: Your lawyer is pretentious. It's ridiculous.
Tony: He's putting up a good fight. You don't like it because you live in denial.
Shirine: You're just his puppet.
Tony: He lets nothing slide without contesting it.
Shirine: Really? Why did he say the Palestinians were a catastrophe?
Tony: He got carried away.
Shirine: I don't get it. A famous lawyer, who defended the party's leader, decides to take on a trifling case? For free?
Tony: For you, it's a trifle. For me, it's everything.
Sirine: How so?
Shirine: Which truth? You provoked and insulted this man. You hurt yourself working.
Tony: Really?
Shirine: I was publicly humiliated because of both of you!

Then back in time: 45 years.

Nadine: Mr. Mohamed, what you call the Jordanian Civil War is known as Black September, right?
Mohamed: It was a civil war. Many Palestinians live in Jordan.
Nadine: History remembers it as Black September. The Jordanian army hit Palestinian refugees, killing more than 3,000, mainly civilians, and based on recognized criteria, this is a massacre.
Mohamed: The militias were hiding among civilians. We had no choice.
Mohamed: They tried to assassinate King Hussein. They were a state within a state, they launched cross-border attacks. They endangered the whole country.
Nadine: Mr. Mohamed, you say you were a cook. Yes. But you were in the army. Did you wear a uniform?
Mohamed: Yes.
Nadine: Yasser Salameh had no reason to believe you weren't a soldier.
Mohamed: I was serving them food.
Nadine: The Jordanian Army attacks a refugee camp, indiscriminately kills civilians and militants, then decides to feed those who survived. The oppressor humiliates the oppressed with his generosity. In this conteXt, Salameh saw a soldier take a piece of bread from a child, his blood boils, he attacks the soldier. My client isn't the bloodthirsty man you describe. No! Yasser Salameh can't just stand there while injustice happens. The proof is he refused to repeat Tony Hanna's words, though it would have been in his interest. He didn't do it because those words are humiliating. He didn't do it because those words are humiliating. Tony Hanna's words made my client act in extreme distress and pushed him to lash out. Penal code, Article 228: even if a perpetrator exceeds the bounds of self-defense, he may be acquitted if he acted in extreme distress that hampered his judgment and self-control.

So, what constitutes justice here?

Wajdi: Did Tony Hanna use a bullhorn to say, "I wish Ariel Sharon had wiped you all out"? Did he spray graffiti, call the press?
Yasser: No.
Wajdi: So when he said those words, it was in private.
Yasser: Yes.
Wajdi: Therefore, no publishing. No libel, no crime. All my client did was express a "wish". He said, "I wish". Is a wish a crime? What's next? My thoughts? My dreams? If I dreamed I killed you, am I guilty? Where do we stop?
Nadine: We are not judging thoughts and dreams, but words.
Wajdi: All he said was, "I wish Sharon had wiped you all out." Are his words going to push Ariel Sharon to wipe the Palestinians out? Sharon doesn't need Tony Hanna's permission. The words of my client were spoken in anger in a dispute. Were they harsh? Yes. But that's it. He was exercising his right of freedom of speech.

...

Wajdi: The defense points to the Palestinians' despair, as if they were the world's only oppressed people. And the Armenians? The Kurds, the gays, the gypsies, artists, street vendors? Who isn't deprived of rights? I don't see them beat each other up.
[he turns to Yasser]
Wajdi: Mr. Yasser, just because you're a refugee, a victim with no country, that gives you no excuse to be violent. Even if you are the most oppressed person, it doesn't make you the spokesman of morality and justice! And why all the fuss? Because Palestinians get wiped out? Because Mr. Tony said these words? No. The reason is Sharon. If Tony Hanna had said, I wish the Eskimos, or the Smurfs, had wiped you all out, we wouldn't be here debating! Nadine: Eskimos and Smurfs are not the point. The counselor is sidetracking us.
Wajdi [to the judge]: When a Jew does it, it's a crime, but when an Arab kills an Arab, it's OK. As long as we keep it in the family, right?
Man in back of courtroom: The Jews did worse! You right-wing scum! Don't talk about Palestinians! You're a traitor!
Wajdi: Oh, sure! Only Christians committed atrocities!
Man in back of courtroom: You collaborated with the Jews.
Wajdi: With the devil too! No apologies! We were the resistance.
Man in back of courtroom: Don't mention the resistance, you dirty dog!

The courtroom erupts.

Tony [on the phone]: Why bring the Jews into this?
Wajdi: These were your words, not mine.
Tony: I'm being called an Israeli sympathizer.
Wajdi: You started the whole thing. What did you expect? A walk in the park? This is war. Waged in court. I asked you, are you up to the task? You said yes.
Tony: I didn't want it to be political.
Waldi: You came to me, no? When I asked what you wanted, what did you say? "When we're done with him, "I want him to say I'm 100 times worse than Sharon." If you can't handle it, I'll drop the case.

Then all hell breaks loose [in the media, on the streets] as the case becomes the focus for any number of religious and political agendas.

President: I'm told you're both decent people, love your families, work hard. I work hard too: squabbling deputies, water shortages, power outages, trash collection, two million refugees, terrorists sneaking in. Where is this country headed? I've asked you to come here to put an end to all this.
Yasser: That's why we're in court, Mr. President.
President: How about we resolve this out of court? You know, lawyers like to drag things out, to show off. They have huge egos. They don't care about you. They're working hard. But they're not helping you reconcile. You must set aside your differences, for your country's sake.
Tony: Which one, Mr. President? They hate this country.
President: We live in the same country. We're brothers.
Tony: No, we're not.

Back again to the past. January of 1976. The Damour Massacre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre

Judge [after Tony and his father leave the courtroom]: Counselor, what just happened?
Wajdi: What did we expect? The footage put him in "extreme distress".

...

Yasser [alone with Tony at his garage]: How many ribs did I break? Two? I just patted you. You know what's your problem? You talk too much. You drove everyone crazy, lit this place on fire, because you talk too much. You just can't keep your fucking mouth shut. Listen, your little show in court today was pretty pathetic. What did you want to prove? That you're the victim? Victim my ass! Everyone knows who Lebanon's Christians are. You talked about defending your country while you lived in your fancy beach villas. You played the tourists during the war. Shopping in Paris, skiing in Switzerland. You eat sushi. You speak French. Half the bombs that fell on you didn't have detonators. You don't know what suffering is. What a bunch of cry babies!
[Tony lunges at Yasser and punches him in the ribs]
Yasser: I'm sorry.

...

Nadine [to the court]: Forty years ago, a massacre took place in Damour. A heinous massacre. Thousands of families had to flee. Mr. Tony Hanna was among the lucky survivors. What happened back then remains buried. The perpetrators unpunished. No justice. No closure. Nothing. We can understand why Tony Hanna said those words to Yasser Salameh. He wanted revenge. For Tony, Yasser is guilty, guilty by association. We've all been through hard times. We let our emotions get the better of us, like Tony Hanna and Yasser Salameh. Yasser Salameh also reacted to words that targeted his identity, his history, his people's history. When one goes too far, and those words did, one must expect a reaction. It's normal. It's inevitable. It's human nature.

...

Wajdi [to the court]: There was an article this morning about a US senator who insulted a flight attendant. She asks him to turn his cellphone off. So he calls her a bitch. The White House reacted. Finally, the senator issued a public apology. I wonder if this could happen in this country. If it's ever possible to settle a dispute in a respectful manner, and consider an apology is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of decency. That's all Mr. Hanna wanted. An apology. Plain and simple. The defense maintains that Tony Hanna's words targeted Mr. Salameh's identity, his history, and his people's history. So he hit him. If Yasser Salameh is a refugee, so is Tony Hanna. Even more, a refugee in his own country. His life has been marred by the same suffering, tragedy, and injustice. The only difference is we've never showed Tony and many others the compassion they deserve. On the contrary, we've silenced them, ostracized them, while we know all too well what happened to the Palestinians. We talk so much about your cause, there's no room left for anyone else. What happened in 1976 in Damour, Jiye, Sadiyat, and Nahme, we're not allowed to talk about it. But what Tony Hanna said to Yasser Salameh, it's allowed. The truth is they're the product of an old wound that has never healed. What's happening in this court is a beginning to consider and accept the other. Something must be said, something relevant, fundamental. No one has a monopoly on suffering, Your Honors. No one.

...

Reporter [on TV]: All eyes are on the Court ofAppeals. The verdict is imminent. From north to south, the army is on high alert...The verdict in the Hanna vs Salameh case...A reminder of the tough last two months the country has been through...Judge Colette Mansur allowed the public to view the proceedings. Will the verdict change Palestinians' situation in Lebanon? Could this trial set a precedent by examining old Civil War wounds? Will either side accept or appeal the decision to the Supreme Court? Will this verdict spark more rioting in the streets? This case now closes after having profoundly rattled Lebanon. It has fueled waves of violence and brought back memories of the Civil War.

...

Judge: Plaintiff and defendant, please rise. This seems like a cut-and-dry case, but in reality it's not. This is a case that involves two people who each claim to be the victim. Words were uttered, and an assault was committed. You each believe you were in the right. The issue is which of you is at fault, or more at fault. Do the words outweigh the physical aggression, or are they equally incriminating? Basically, a physical assault is unacceptable. You can't take the law into your own hands, except for clear and imminent danger, meaning self-defense. At the same time, does an insult carry the same weight as physical assault, when the insult is demeaning and hurtful? At one point, we were tempted to find you both guilty. But based on the evidence submitted by both lawyers, we had to go back to how it all started. By virtue of majority vote, two for, and one against, this court finds Yasser Salameh not guilty.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Thoroughbreds?

What would you call two very attractive upper class suburban teens? White of course.

Oh, and one of them is a true "social misfit".

One thing for sure, when trouble stalks, they can always use these advantages to nudge things in their direction. In fact the only thing that might possibly stop them from prevailing here is the script.

And that's where the suspense lies. Once you make up your mind whether to like them or not you can choose sides and root for a winner. Then intertwining one of the darker shades of "human nature" with what may or may not be described as "diseased minds", you react to it from inside your own more or less diseased brain.

Some might call this a "black comedy". But not everybody. A horror film actually seems more applicable. Of the "psychological" sort.

Basically, it revolves around the gap that sometimes appears between what we see on the surface of that demographic embodying the American dream, and the grotesque slimeballs that are down deeper.

You just never really know, do you?

Look for that truly scary sociopathic personality here. Some apparently are born this way, while others apparently are made. But once you assume that everything revolves around a carefully calculated cost/benefit analysis of "what's in it for me?", you can focus in more on what's really important: not getting caught.

IMDb

This was Anton Yelchin's final film before his death on June 19, 2016 at the age of 27.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbreds_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/TPcV_3D3V2A

Thoroughbreds [2017]
Written and directed by Cory Finley

Lily: Well, I guess you're feeling a lot of... feelings, uh, right now.
Amanda: Well, that's the funny thing, actually. I really don't.
Lily: Don't what?
Amanda: Feel anything.
Lily: Like, you're numb? Like you don't have any negative feelings...
Amanda: Like I don't have any feelings, ever.
Lily [scoffing]: Sure, you do.
Amanda: I mean sometimes I feel hungry or tired. But, like, joy, guilt? I really don't have any of those.
Lily: I don't understand.
Amanda: Yeah, it's hard to explain. It's really only recently that I've been able to admit it to myself. Because I've gotten so good at watching and imitating other people's emotions that I sort of tricked myself into believing I have them, but I don't.
Lily: So that's a, um...
Amanda: A what?
Lily: A disorder or something?
Amanda: Oh. Well, the shrink would sure like it to be. First it was borderline personality, then severe depression, yesterday, she said it was antisocial with schizoid tendency. She's basically just flipping to random pages of the DSM-5 and throwing medications at me. But I have a perfectly healthy brain. It just doesn't contain feelings. And that doesn't necessarily make me a bad person. It just means I have to work a little harder than everyone else to be good.

No comment, he thought.

Amanda [after an alarm goes off]: Glad you set an alarm to make sure we didn't hang out longer than intended.
Lily: Oh, no... I mean, it...I have this thing with my mom...
Amanda: You know, I have my mom's email password. It means I read her inbox daily. I saw your thread with her. How she had to bump up from a hundred to two hundred an hour to get you to do this. Just next time, don't say you're not charging. She was desperate to set up a playdate, by the way. She's been trying for two weeks. You could have gotten five hundred out of her if you'd stood pat.

...

Amanda [of Mark, Lily's stepdad]: Because he's rich?
Lily: Excuse me?
Amanda: Because he leaves you envelopes of money?
Lily: Okay, that was for my broken laptop. He doesn't just leave me envelopes of money...
Amanda: Okay, but you and your mom must still know that it's in your best interest to keep him happy.
Lily [leaving the table]: Okay...I think we're done here.

...

Amanda: I just think you should be honest about your feelings. Otherwise it starts coming out in passive-aggressive ways. Like, for instance, you start inviting your creepy friend over to make him mad.
Lily: That's not why you're here.
Amanda: Of course it is.
Lily: Look, if that's how you feel, then why don't you go ask your mom to buy you another friend? I'm sure you're just rolling in options....The answer is "D, ambivalent."

...

Lily: You're not hurt?
Amanda: It's the first honest thing you've said to me since sixth grade.
Lily [after a long sigh]: You're incredibly off-putting and you freak me out.
Amanda: There you go.
Lily: In kind of a fascinating way, like a YouTube video of a giant zit being popped or a baby born without a face.

...

Amanda [tears streaming down her face]: The Technique.
Lily: Holy shit. You can just do that on cue?
Amanda: Years of practice.
Lily: Can you teach me?
Amanda: So you basically have to learn all the automatic, like, processes that get triggered when you cry, and then sort of manually generate each one. It feeds back to the brain, and then the tears just come naturally.

...

Mark: Just grabbin' my juice.
Amanda [after Mark leaves the room]: His juice?
Lily: It's a cleanse. Three weeks out of the month he pounds steak, and the last week he juices exclusively.
Amanda: Is that healthy?
Lily: I think you're only supposed to do it once a year. Hopefully, one of these days he'll just juice himself to death.

...

Amanda: You ever think about just killing him?
Lily: I mean, no.
Amanda: You could at least consider Just weigh the pros and cons.
Lily: No.
Amanda: Why don't you consider all options? Yeah, sure it's outside the box, but you can only get so far thinking how everyone else thinks. Look at Steve Jobs.

...

Amanda: It's a cost-benefit analysis. It seems like you could generate a lot of benefit for a lot of people.
Lily: Except I'd spend the rest of my life in jail.
Amanda: Why are you assuming you'd get caught?
Lily: I should not have to explain this.
Amanda: Probably what people said to Columbus when he was like, "I think the world is round, instead of flat and surrounded by dragons." They were like, "No, dumbass, we shouldn't have to explain this." It's probably what people said to Steve Jobs when he was like, "This MP3 player is also a phone."
Lily: Okay, can we please stop talking about Steve Jobs? Steve Jobs never fucking murdered someone.
Amanda: I think most of this country's moral norms comes from weird old Puritan bullshit. A human life isn't some sacred thing. There's nothing holy about a dick and a vaj getting together and spitting out a little dude. If that dude causes more bad than good, then he's like a, you know... a piece of malfunctioning machinery.
Lily: A lame horse.
Amanda: Right. Should be taken out back and put down.
Lily: You know what you sound like?
Amanda: What?
Lily: A Nazi.
Amanda: I had to leave school before we did World War II but I think it was about race, with them?
Lily: I think you should leave.

...

Tim [the local scruffy dealer]: Where did you go to school?
Lily: I board.
Tim: And it makes you miserable. It's like a glorified fuckin' prison. You ever think about dropping out?
Lily: Why would I do that?
Tim: It's what I did. Followed my, uh, entrepreneurial instincts. It's the best decision I ever made.
Lily: Clearly.
Tim: You know, the thing about this town is...the sawdust smells fantastic, but you are still in a hamster cage. Meanwhile, out there, there are more billionaires under 30 than at any moment in human history. It's our time, motherfucker.

...

Lily [watching Amanda standing completely still in the back yard just staring into the woods]: What's she doing out there?
Karen [Amanda's mom]: I don't know.

...

Lily [hesitantly]: That thing you said the other night.
Amanda: Which thing?
Amanda: Yeah?
Lily: Well, you said something like, "Why are you assuming you'd get caught?"
Amanda: Uh-huh.
Lily: So, like... hypothetically, if you were going to do it, how would you... do it?
Amanda: Well, I wouldn't...do it. That's what you want me to say.
Lily: I don't want you to say anything. Just asking.

...

Cynthia [Lily's mom]: We've been having the conversation about next year, and we feel really good about Brookmore. He has a friend who's on the board and they're really very good at...
Lily: Brookmore is a place for girls with very severe behavioral issues. How is this even part of the conversation?
Cynthia: That's not true.
Lily: If I'm not readmitted, then I'm staying local. He doesn't want me here.
Cynthia: No... No, that's not it at all. You know how much effort he puts in every day getting closer to you. I got admitted into Andover, I've...
Mark [walking in to the room]: You were admitted to Andover because your dad wrote them a check. This is a not a conversation. We've already made the down payment.

...

Lily: I saw the photos. Oh. You're not gonna say anything?
Amanda: What do you want me to say?
Lily: I guess I didn't realize you did it like that.
Amanda: Well, that's not how I wanted it to go. Obviously, I wanted to get it done by a vet. He was never gonna walk again. But you know my mom. She's the type of person that gets weepy when she imagines her horse going to sleep and never waking up. And when a... weak moral character like that runs your household...
Lily: But still, you didn't have to...
Amanda: Well, if the Midazolam Hydrochloride had worked like it was supposed to, then it just would have been...Unfortunately, quality control on black-market drugs is poor. Honeymooner was going into convulsions. He was bucking hard and he broke the splint. And then he broke the other leg, too. By that point, it just became a question of ending it as quickly as possible. And I Googled methods of execution. I didn't have a gun, so that was out. But in Mexico, they use something called a "puntilla."
Lily: A what?
Amanda: A puntilla. It's like a curved blade. Like an ice pick. You jam it behind the cervical vertebrae, and they go limp.
Lily: And you had a puntilla?
Amanda: Kinda. It stopped the convulsions, but the problem with puntilla execution is, it doesn't actually kill the horse, it just paralyzes them. And obviously I didn't want that for Honeymooner. So, I climbed on top of him, he was on the ground at this point, and I started cutting away the flesh of his neck. The goal was to get to the spine as quickly as possible and it took some time. The muscle had a lot of gristle in it and the knife got dull pretty quickly, but I got there...And then I... I just stood up and I got my foot into a position where I could kick downwards, and...I think it felt right. That it was me who did it. After all the years I'd spent with that horse. I just put my head down, and looked at it as completing a task.

Next up: Mark. Cue Tim.

Tim: Yes, I have a gun.
Amanda: Multiple guns?
Tim: Multiple guns... No! One! One gun! What, am I, fucking Rambo?
Amanda: Do you have it on you?
Tim: Why do you care?
Lily: He's lying.
Tim: I have a gun.
Amanda: Good.
Tim: Why "good?"
Amanda: Because then Lily has a business proposition for you.

...

Amanda [to Lily after knocking out Tim with a lamp]: You cannot hesitate. The only thing worse than being incompetent or being unkind or being evil is being indecisive.

...

Tim: You can't give the fucking hole in my head time to close?
Lily: It has to be Saturday. I'm on vacation with my mom, and Amanda's at a residential psychotherapy program.
Amanda: If you tell anyone about any of this or if you don't do your job, we'll send the audio, which we've put online, to the police.
Tim: I'm out. I'm out. You... you try anything, you're going to jail.
Amanda: I'm sorry, who...who's going to jail? We're just two minors with incredibly expensive family lawyers. On the other hand, if you have one more legal issue, even a minor drug offense, you're getting 15 years.

...

Lily [after Tim backs out]: We'll do it ourselves.
Amanda: I don't think you're in the right mindset to be planning this.
Lily: What kind of mindset am I in?
Amanda: Lighting a cigarette indoors. That kind of mindset.
Lily: Oh, is this your house? Or is this my house?
Amanda: I'm just saying, that if we're gonna do this it's because it's the right thing to do. Not because you're upset and you're going through a hard time.
Lily: What kind of "hard time" am I going through? My life is fine right now...
Amanda: I mean, you got expelled from Andover. And you lied to me about your internship.

...

Lily: Leave her.
Mark: What's that?
Lily: If you want what's best for her...leave her.
Mark [approaching her]: You couldn't possibly understand someone else's point of view. Could you? Not mine, not your friends', definitely not your mom's.
Lily: Fuck you.
Mark: Because in your brain, all these people are just little offshoots of your consciousness. We're all your maids, aren't we? Your cleaning ladies. Your personal trainers. You know what? Put all the shit in your lungs that you want. We need to stop protecting you. Life needs to knock you around a little. Oh, and the only reason that I am still sending you to Brookmore is that I've paid in full. After that, you're off my payroll...princess.

...

Lily: You didn't do anything.
Amanda: You were never unsafe.
Lily: So, you're okay with him talking to me like that?
Amanda: He's a cock. Is that new information for us? Honestly, he's not even that off-base. I mean, empathy isn't your strong suit. But you know that.

...

Amanda [seeing tears on Lily's cheeks]: Hey! There you go.
Lily: What?
Amanda: The Technique. You've been practicing.
Lily: I'm not using The Technique, Amanda. Hey, can I ask you something?
Amanda: Yeah.
Lily: Do you remember that time in ninth grade when we were driving home from my dad's funeral, and you were holding me, and we were crying?
Amanda: Yeah.
Lily: Were you using The Technique?
Amanda: Yeah. That was good, wasn't it?

...

Amanda [watching an old Shirley Temple movie with Lily]: It's funny to think how everyone in this movie is dead now. Or, like, at least very old. He's probably got a motor-scooter now. She pees in a bag. She's an obligation to her family. They take turns visiting her. And... and when they sit next to her bed and this movie comes on the TV, she goes, "My, - what a pretty young thing..."
Lily: You're bumming me out.

...

Lily: Do you remember that stuff you were saying to Tim the other day? The stuff about how his life isn't worth living.
Amanda: Yeah.
Amanda: Like, any of our lives? Like, in a philosophical sense?
Lily: Like your life in particular. I just mean like If you can't feel anything, like, even happiness or... I'm so sorry. I... I didn't mean that.
Amanda: No, it's... It's okay. I just never really thought about it.
Lily [abruptly]: Stop. I drugged it.
Amanda: You what?
Lily: I put Rohypnol in my drink?
Amanda: You roofied me.
Lily: Yeah.
Amanda: Why?
Lilly: Because I was gonna knock you out and then go upstairs. And afterwards I was gonna put the knife in your hand to make it look like you'd...Oh, I'm so sorry, okay? I... I don't even know what I was thinking. Just...Just give me the glass and I'll throw them both away...
[Amanda gulps down the rest of it]
Lily: Stop. Stop it.

...

Lily: Do you know what this does?
Amanda: Oh, yeah. It, um...Oh, God, you really dosed this motherfucker up.
Lily: Why would you do that?
Amanda: I live a meaningless life...I'm a skilled imitator.

...

Lily: Just so you know... I'm glad you didn't show up.
Tim: Okay.
Lily: I wanted her to forget all about it, but...she...felt differently.
Tim: Did you, uh...talk to her after that?
Lily [shaking her head]: She did write me a letter, though. About a week ago.
[segue to Amanda in confinement]
Amanda [voiceover]: Things actually aren't bad here. Food's okay, staff are generally nice people. The therapists have been working with me to fill in my memories of those missing hours. And it's kind of a fun exercise. I can tell them fucking anything and they'll just write it down and nod. In other news, the ol' medication-of-the-month club is back in full swing, and the latest ones are making me sleep 14 hours a day and dream constantly. You're in a lot of them. In one of the recurring ones, we're in your living room, and I've just drank your drugged screwdriver...and you're screaming, asking me why I did it. Asking me why I have a horse's head instead of my face. And I wanna tell you that I don't, but I turn to you and I open my mouth and all that comes out is a horse's neigh...And then there's this other recurring dream that doesn't involve you at all. And it goes like this: I'm Honeymooner, and I'm dying. And I rise out of my body, and I'm staring down at our whole suburb, and time is speeding up. And I see generations of people coming, and going, and building bigger houses. And then eventually the people start spending more and more of their time staring at their smartphones. And soon enough, they're forgetting to clean their houses, or mow their lawns, or eat, and eventually, all the houses rot and collapse, and the people disappear, vanishing completely into the Internet. And then...and this is the really beautiful part...the horses take over. And the whole suburb is just beautiful thoroughbred stallions with no owners and no memory of owners and no way of knowing how expensive they are, just mating and galloping through the ruins.
Tim: What did it say?
Lily: I don't know. I just threw it away.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

An "erotic thriller".

And that often revolves [in films] around one or another brilliant and charming psychologist -- almost always a man -- becoming romantically involved with one or another beautiful and troubled patient -- almost always a woman.

"Frail and fragile" is often how they are described.

And, given the fact that "in the field" this is considered to be taboo, it lends itself to twists and turns.

Cue Paul's "obscure past". Then it comes down to just how this obscure past comes to intertwine with what is often an incalculable present leading or not leading to one or another entirely problematic future.

Then the part about twins. Think for example Dead Ringers. Only here you are given a whole new perspective on what being a twin might mean to some.

Finally, one of those films in which we are never entirely certain that what we are seeing is actually unfolding between the characters or is only unfolding in the mind of one of them. This will intrigue some and infuriate others. As with The Usual Suspects you are never entirely sure if what you are watching is what actually unfolded.

Look for mirrors. They seem to be everywhere. Then decide for yourself what that tells us about the film.

IMDb

Adapted from a novel by Joyce Carol Oates, named "Lives of the Twins".

Double Lover [L'amant Double] 2017
Written and directed by François Ozon

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Amant_double
trailer: https://youtu.be/MnvnP3EThn4

Doctor: And the stomach pains? They're back?
Chloé: Yes. And getting worse.
Doctor: I see nothing abnormal. I can prescribe ultrasound if you like. I think it's mainly psychological. In your head.
Chloé: Could you recommend someone? I think I'm ready.
Doctor: Would you prefer a man or a woman.

...

Chloé [to Paul]: I've seen many specialists for my stomach pains but they never find anything. People say it's psychological, the stomach being a second brain. So I may as well see a shrink.

...

Chloé [to Paul at their first session]: I am 25 years old and I live alone. Well, not totally alone, I have my cat, Milo. I am currently looking for a job and it's not easy. I feel stressed...and I say the opposite of what I mean and I do everything wrong....I've had a few lovers. Nothing major. I think I am incapable of loving. I feel empty sometimes. Like something is missing. Sometimes I cry for no reason. There you are.

You'll either get this or you won't.

Paul: I'm listening.
Chloé: I was pregnant. By who I don't know. But it hurt, real bad...I was here, lying on a gynecological table. You had steel instruments resembling torture instruments. I asked you not to hurt me but you didn't respond. You spread my legs and looked at my sex. I tried to close my legs. I felt you were going to rape me. Ridiculous, no?

...

Chloé [to Paul]: When I was 7, my mother told me I was an accident. From a one night stand she had forgotten. She wouldn't recognize his face.
[long pause]
Chloé: Maybe he was violent with her. Or maybe he paid her. Like a whore.

And there it is: the part the past plays in making us who we think we are today.

Chloé [to Paul]: When you look at me that way...I feel I exist.

...

Chloé: My stomach hasn't hurt in a week. I'm afraid I'll get better.
Paul: Why?
Chloé: I think I want to stay weak. Keep hurting...while you stay strong.

Then they exchange "the look".

Paul: I think we should end our sesessions.
Chloé: Why? Did I do something wrong?
Paul: No. It's me. This has never happened before. I have feeling that make it impossible to continue.
Chloé: Feelings?

...

Chloé [to Paul]: You don't think that you have cured me? I think you were my remedy.

...

Chloé: It's strange. You know everything abut me. But I sometimes feel I'm with a stranger. Like you're hiding things.
Paul: Why do you say that?
Chloé: I found your old passport in a box.
Paul: You got into my stuff?
Chloé: I was just unpacking. I saw you had a different name. Delord, I believe.
[Paul says nothing]
Chloé: Don't want to talk about it?

...

Chloé: Why are you lying? I saw you on the way home. Talking to a woman.
Paul: Impossible. The hospital's across town.
Chloé: But I saw you.
Paul: But you are mistaken. It wasn't me. I must have a look-alike.
Chloé: I'm sure it was you!

Imagine: What if you had a twin but didn't know it? Cue Louis Delord.

Chloé: You look like someone I know.
Louis: Do I?
Chloé: Paul Meyer.
Louis [after a pause[: He is my brother. Do you know him well?
Chloé: Not very. I consulted him, to no avail.
Louis: Rest assured. We're twins and went to the same schools, but our therapeutic methods are very different. I don't suppose he sent you.
Chloé: No

You know something is very strange here, but in what direction will it all go?

Louis: If you follow my therapy, which will cost you, I think I can cure you. If you stop lying to me.
Chloé: Lying to you?
Louis: I don't believe you have a sister...Is you're mother really dead, or do you wisd her dead? Lying to seduce is a common practice among pretty women. Especially the frigid ones.
[he gets a phone call...Paul?]
Louis: I'm willing to see you again. I do refuse certain patients. Those who'd be bland without their vices.
Chloé [suddenly angy]: Excuse me. This isn't going to work.
Lousi: Please pay me for the full session. 150 euros. Don't mention me to my brother.
Chloé: I don't see him anymore.
Louis: Good. Next time we'll see if you're interesting...or a silly twat.
Chloé: There will be no next time.

So: Did any of this axctually happen?

Chloé [to Paul]: What don't you introduce me to your family?

...

Paul: I remember the first time I saw you. You seemed a bit lost, but stronger than most of my patients.
Chloé: Did you think I was a silly twat?
Paul: No. Just a dirty twat.

...

Paul: I had a happy childhood.
Chloé: What about a twin brother?
Paul: No thanks. It would be like looking in the mirror all the time.
Chloé: Maybe you have one but don't know.

...

Chloé: Surprised I came back?
Louis: To be honest, I didn't give it a thought.

...

Louis: Get undressed.
Chloé: You're crazy.
Louis: Time for applied techniques. Come closer.
Chloé: No.
Louis: Yes. You want to.
Chloé: I can't.
Louis: "He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence".
Chloé: I don't desire you.
Louis: Then why'd you come back?
Chloé: To learn the truth.

...

Chloé: No one's ever done that to me.
Louis: No one's ever fucked you like that? You've fanticized it. Same thing.

...

Chloé: Is your cat a female.
Louis: No, Danton is a male. Rare for a tortiseshell. They're usually female with two colors. In less than 1% of cases, they're male with three colors. Always twins. It's a genetic eccentricity caused by a trisomy of the sex chromosome. Unique creatures. Monstrous. When the cat's ovum is fertilized, twin fetuses develop in the uterus. But after a few weeks they meld into one organism. A unique cat with the genetic properties of twins, XXY. In fact it's the dominant twin. It happens in people too. Some people discover, as adults, they're carrying inside them the fetus of a brother or sister. They're cannibal twins.

...

Louis: Just don't tell him.
Chloé: You don't exist for him anyway.
Louis: I know. He could never stand having a twin. He denies my existence. He wanted to be the only one. An only child. My parents favorite. I no longer exist.

...

Chloé: Did Paul change his name to cut you out of his life?
Louis: Of course.
Chloé: What do you feel for Paul?
Louis: Nothing. I rarely think of him. People often confuse us, that's all. When they learn I'm his older brother, they ask of him.
Chloé: Older brother?
Louis: Right. I'm 15 minutes older. I was born 15 minutes sooner. Head first. Paul came out later, feet first. My mother suffered like hell. He made her lose a lot of blood. I weighed 5 1/2 pounds. He weighed under 4 1/2. Even in my mothers uterus I was the dominant twin. I'm right-handed, he's left. Our hair curls the opposit way. His left eye is weak, my right eye is. We're mirror twins. In certain primitve cultures they'd kill the second born twin because he was weaker and had less chance of surviving.

...

Chloé: What's your secret, Louis. I really need to know.
[he says nothing]
Chloé: What happened? What made him cut you out of his life? Please tell me. I'm pregnant and Paul wants to marry me.
Chloé: What if you're the one who's obsessed with him? Jealous?
Louis: In two seconds you've turned ugly.
Chloé: You hate Paul because he's the real dominant twin. He fucked you in the ass.
Louis [seething]: Get lost, Chloé. Fuck off.

...

Louis [on the phone]: You're carrying my child. Check the dates.

...

Louis [pretending to be Paul kisses Chloé passionaitely in a restaurant]: Thought I was my brother? Calm down! I had to see you. I want to resume our therapy. I'll cure you.

...

Louis [gripping Chloé as she tries to leave]: Has Paul mentioned our classmate? Ask him about Sandra Schenker. Then you'll understand.

...

Mother [on the phone]: Hello?
Chloé: May I speak to Sandra Schenker? I'm an old classmate. I was wondering how she is.
Mother: My daughter doesn't go out anymore. Hasn't in a long time.
Chloé: Why doesn't she go out?
Mother: You don't know about the accident?

...

Mother [to Chloé]: They were such a perfect couple. Sandra and Paul, Paul and Sandra. He was shy. A charming boy. Unlike his twin. A monster. He's the one who got drunk pretending to be Paul. Sandra had never had a drop to drink. She was a serious girl. Innocent. A virgin. What happened, happened. He raped her. When Paul found out, he became extremely violent. He was so very jealous. He began to hate his brother. He refused to see Sandra again. Sandra didn't understand. So she committed that act. Attempted suicide with a firearm.

...

Mother: When it comes to twins, we assume that if we know one, we know the other. But the Delord brothers...

...

Mother: You were their victim too?
Chloé: What do you mean?

...

Paul: I never wanted to hear that story again. Sandra. Louis. She betrayed me. He soiled her. I broke up with her because I stopped loving her. I had no feelings left. I felt only pity for her.
Chloé: It wasn't Sandra's fault. Your brother pretended he was you. He tricked her, then raped her.
Paul: Not at all. Sandra was attracted to him. She only wanted me because I was the twin. He's the one she wanted. What do you think...that she was the victim of two diabolical brothers? No. She's responsible too. Her fascination...her lust...for twins. That's waht killed her.
Chloé: She is still living!

...

Chloé: Enough Louis. I saw Sandra and her mother. You destroy everything.
Louis: The whole thing was absurd and tragic. Sandra was a beautiful girl. But completely hysterical. That little bitch cried rape to my brother.
Chloé: You're lying!
Louis: Did her moother mention Sandra was pregnant? By me, obviously. It's funny. Looking at you now, I feel like I'm seeing her. The same greedy mouth...
Chloé [slapping him]: You're a monster!
Louis: There are no monsters. Only human beings. Like you, me and Paul.

....

Louis [confronting Chloé now pointing a gun at him]: Sandra Schenker returns.
Chloé [fiercely]: I won't end up like her. She should have killed you, Louis.
Louis: Are you quite sure, my dear Chloé, that I'm Louis...and not Paul?

...

Louis [to Chloé]: I believe we have a guest.

I won't even attempt to convey what happens next.

Paul: I'm so angry with myself.
Mother: It's not your fault. My daughter's always been fragile.
Paul: I refused to see. I thought loving her would keep her safe. Help her live.
Mother: Love has never saved anyone.

...

Doctor: The growth Chloé thought was a pregnancy was really a cyst weighing nearly 2 pounds.
Paul: Could this explain her mental state?
Doctor: Learning she was carrying not a baby but her unborn twin triggered an emotional shock and inhibited her sexuality.
Mother: So that means I was carrying two fetuses.
Doctor: Yes. At the start of your pregnancy.

...

Chloé: Did you see Sandra?
Paul: Sandra?
Chloé: Yes, my twin. The fetus. It says on the internet I'm a cannibal twin.
Paul: The exact term is parasitic. A parasitic twin.

...

Chloé [to her mother]: I devoured my twin sister in your womb. She was inside me.
Mother: No, Chloé.
Paul: Chloé, you didn't devour her, you absorbed her. It never became a fetus. It was just some sort of growth with limbs and bones.
Chloé [weeping]: It was my sister.

...

Chloé: Ever wish you had a brother, Paul.
Paul: Enough of that. It's over.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
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### Re: philosophy in film

They pop up in the news from time to time.

The "controversial exhibit". At one or another museum. It might revolve around sex or race or religion or politics. But one thing we can be certain of: Some will embrace it enthusiasticaly while others will protest it even more enthusiastically.

Consider: http://www.sleek-mag.com/2017/05/09/con ... -artworks/

Call it say the "Piss Christ Syndrome".

This exhibition however would seem to be somewhat more ambiguous. It revolves basically around human psychological reactions to particular contexts in which, among other things, trust and compassion are explored. Different people react to them in different ways. Then we react to their reactions. In other words: What would we do? And [of course]: Is there a way in which a decent, civilized human being would be expected to react

As one reviewer put it, the film runs the gamut from "the inherent narcissism of the most ordinary of people, to the shallowness of popular culture, to the complex behaviors and interactions between people of disparate backgrounds."

Or, as the director informs us:

These people that in the beginning were sitting in tuxedos and eating their nice, fancy dinner, I wanted them to be uncivilized animals in the end, I think that the most uncivilized thing about our time is the collective rage against individuals that are acting uncivilized. Isn't that the scary thing about us?

So, in conjunction with all this, where does "art" end and "real life" begin?

Then this part:

Christian: If you place an object in a museum does that make this object a piece of art?

On the other hand, this film may well run about 45 minutes [if not an hour] too long. Or is that all part of the art?

IMDb

Terry Notary portrays the ape-man "Oleg" in the film. The Russian artist Oleg Kulik was invited to the international group exhibition "Interpol" at Färgfabriken, Stockholm, Sweden. At the opening, the vernissage, Kulik performed like a dog. He glittered, jumped up, rolled and even bit the VIP crowd in their legs. Kulik said he acted as a representative of the browbeaten Russian people, who now attacked and bit back. The crowd became so scared and enraged that they called for the police. In "The Square" there is a similar, charged and offensive scene, but here the performance artist acts like an ape.

The preliminary study of "The Square" was "Rutan" (The Square), an exhibition at Vandalorum in Värnamo, Sweden, in spring 2015, where director Ruben Östlund and film producer Kalle Boman wanted to examine the trust we feel towards each other. Pictures from the exhibition are included in the film.

In the film there is an ape seemingly busy creating art. This refers to an old practical joke. An alleged self-taught French avant-garde artist, Pierre Brassau, appeared at an art exhibition in Gothenburg in 1964. A series of art connoisseurs were tricked by this intentional experiment. It was the chimpanzee Peter from Borås Zoo that had created the "spontanist painting", and the brain behind it was a gallerist and a journalist who were reported to be a police officer for fraud.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4995790/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Square_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/V74sHdm76WU

The Square [2017]
Written and directed by Ruben Östlund

Anne [interviewing Christian]: My first question is a broad one. What are the challenges in running a museum like this?
Christian: I hate to say it but it's probably money. Raising sufficient funds. We're a museum of modern and contemporary art. So we need to present art that is absolutely the art of today, the future, art that is absolutely cutting edge, and that's expensive. And the competition is fierce, because you've got buyers and collectors from all over the world with so much money you can't believe it. They spend more in an afternoon than we spend in a year. Whereas if we buy that piece of art we will be able to present it here. To a large audience. To all of Stockholm and Sweden. So I think it is the obligation of us to get into that competition.

...

Anne: I wanted to ask you something that I read on your website that I didn't understand. And I was hoping you could help me to understand it. Do you mind if I read this to you?
Christian: Plerase do.
Anne: May 30-31. "Exhibition/Non-exhibition. An evening conversation that explores the dynamics of the 'exhibitable' and the construction of 'public-ness' in the spirit of Robert Smithson's Site/Non-site. From non-site to site, from non-exhibition to exhibition, what is the topos of exhibition/non-exhibition in the crowded moments of mega exhibition." I'm clearly not as scholarly as you are. I was just hoping you could...
Christian [after a long pause]: Well, this was a couple of evenings in May when we discussed...when...when...I mean, um, If you place an object in a museum does that make this object a piece of art? For instance, if we took your bag and placed it here, would that make it art?
Anne [hesitantly]: Hm. Okay...

...

From a plaque placed in the square: "The Square is a sanctuary of trust and caring. Within its boundaries, we aII share equaI rights and obIigations."

...

Journalist [to Christian]: For every new project, we need to assess how newsworthy it is. What makes this exhibition stand out? Does it invoIve any controversy? Can we tie it to trends or current events? If not, you're stuck with the biIIboards. That makes it hard to generate any internationaI attention. Then you'II onIy reach the usuaI ''cuIture vuItures''. To get journaIists to write about it, you need some controversy. OnIy this project doesn't reaIIy have much of an edge. As a journaIist, I want to create my own standpoint. Like most peopIe, I want to express an opinion that isn't just consensus.

...

Christian: The exhibition's strength Iies in its simpIicity. That's what we shouId communicate.
Journalist: DefiniteIy, just Iet me read this. ''The Square is a sanctuary of trust and caring. Within its boundaries, we aII share equaI rights and obIigations.'' No one wouId disagree with that. So why shouId I, as a journaIist, care?

...

Christian: We wiII be presenting the Argentinean artist and socioIogist LoIa Arias. LoIa's art is inspired by NicoIas Bourriaud, and his thoughts on reIationaI aesthetics. In short, reIationaI aesthetics expIores how we reIate to each other in a sociaI context.

...

Christian [addressing an audience at the museum]: I'm asking you to imagine that you are standing in a pubIic pIace in town. Such as OdenpIan, or any other Iarge city pIaza. Are you there now? Okay. It's an ordinary day and Iots of peopIe are in motion. You Iook down and see that you are standing inside a square a cIearIy defined 4 x 4 metre square. That's what ''The Square'' is on a physicaI pIane. It's Iike an empty frame waiting for its contents. LoIa Arias compares ''The Square'' to a pedestrian crossing. A pedestrian crossing Drivers are to Iook out for pedestrians. In a simiIar way, there is a contract impIied by ''The Square'', to Iook out for each other. We heIp each other. If you enter this space and ask for heIp, anyone passing by is obIigated to heIp you. ''I'm hungry. Can you heIp me with a meaI?'' ''Can you teach me how to swim?'' ''My father just died and I have no one to taIk to. CouId you spare me 30 minutes of your time?'' Some of you may be thinking that this sounds naive. Maybe even utopian...

...

Woman [voiceover]: Do you want to save a human Iife? Do you want to save a human Iife? Do you want to save a human Iife?

...

Julian [being interviewed at a museum -- discussing "art"]: My starting point was my immediate surroundings and uses ordinary everyday objects to explore the meaning of on'e human response to art. By that I mean they are framed instances that would shed a light on everyday objects which might normally not be noticed in their original context.

...

Anne [claps]: Cunt! Shh...cunt!
Christian [incredulous]: Excuse me?
Anne: Cunt.
Christian: Did you say "cunt"?
Anne [claps]: Shh....cunt!
Christian: Okay...

...

Anne: Did you come?
Christian: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Cue the used condom connundrum.

Marketing rep: This project raises many interesting, topicaI and humanitarian issues. But the chaIIenge here is to cut through the media cIutter. Your competition isn't other museums, it's disasters, terrorism, and controversiaI moves by far-right poIiticians. Keep that at the back of your mind, stay caIm, and DanieI wiII teII you about our idea.

...

Daniel: Moving media, that's what we recommend. When making fiIms today, you need to be aware that peopIe have a very short attention span. If the viewer isn't hooked in two seconds, they'II move on. In 10 to 15 seconds, tops, we aIso have to create something so powerfuI or interesting that peopIe want to share it on Facebook, sociaI media, to the press, thereby creating a viraI effect. We conducted market research on what's shared the most on sociaI media. It's generaIIy vuInerabIe groups. PeopIe post about women, the disabIed, the raciaIized, LGBTQ peopIe... You can make that Iist Ionger, but there is one group that affects peopIe: beggars. So we'd Iike to use a beggar in this cIip, but aIso turn it up a notch by making the beggar a chiId. In addition to this, the beggar wiII have fair hair....We open on the PaIace courtyard. The Square is visibIe. So, there's product pIacement from frame one. Towards this artwork is daybreak and the Square, is shimmering with its promise of trust, caring, moraI courage and aII that good stuff. Then we see a IittIe girI approaching the Square. She's shivering. She's aII aIone. She's crying. She's wrapped in a dirty bIanket and you sense that she's homeIess. These are powerfuI images so we've hooked the viewer. The girI keeps on waIking. PowerfuI images, you wonder where it's aII heading. She's crying as she moves aIong. She enters the Square and there, it's time for the unexpected. The totaI opposite of everything the Square stands for. The surprise effect wiII generate the attention we need, creating the perfect pIatform to express your message. AII those vaIues and issues your exhibition wouId Iike to raise.

You won't believe the video they come up with.

Anne: I think you are so interesting. I think I am finally starting to figure you out.
Christian: Yeah? Okay, let's hear it.
Anne: I think you're interested in using your position, which is a position of power, to attract women and to make conquests. That's what I think. That's what I think. Sorry.

...

Christian: Why is it so hard for you to admit that power is a turn-on? Admit it.
Anne: But it's not true for me.
Christian: It's not true for you, okay. I'll admit to something else as well. I'm really proud that I conquered you.
Anne: Proud of having me?
Christian: Yeah. You're quite a catch.

...

Christian: WeIcome! I'm deIighted to see such a crowd. Here are sets for our new exhibition, one that is very promising indeed. To enter, you have to decide whether you trust other peopIe, or that you don't, you mistrust them.

Right, like it's always either one or the other.

Christian [to his daughters]: When your grandpa was a boy, about 6 years oId, and he was about to go out and pIay his parents made him a tag and wrote his name and address on it. They hung it around his neck and sent him off to pIay aII by himseIf in the middIe of Copenhagen. Imagine if I had done that to you when you were six. That never wouId have happened. Attitudes change...Back then, peopIe trusted other grownups, to heIp their chiIdren if they had probIems or had Iost their way. But nowadays, you tend to regard other aduIts as potentiaI threats.

...

Pauline [on phone]: Hello, l'm Pauline from YouTube Sweden. Congratulations to 300k.
Christian: Excuse me?
Pauline: Congratulations to 300,000 clicks.
Christian: 300,000 views?
Pauline: That's right. Your video has seen a lot of traffic in just a few hours.
Christian: ReaIIy? WeII, that's nice. I presume you're referring to our artist taIk.
Pauline: No, it's ''Blonde Child Beggar Gets Blown lnto Pieces''. The reason l'm calling is to ask if you are interested in any ads, thereby sharing partner revenue.
Christian: I need to get my head around this. We have a cIip-on YouTube that features kids being bIown up?
Pauline: l haven't seen the clip myself. l don't work with content.

...

Man [reacting to the video on cell phone clip]: ...they have produced this video with taxpayers' money...And the other thing they do, that they are clueless about, is to attack one of Sweden's most vulnerable groups, the beggars. People who sit day and night outside shops. A video like this is pissing them straight in the face. What's really sick is that my 6-year-old daughter sees body parts flying...

...

Woman [at a gathering of well to do patrons of the arts]: What's happening?
Woman: This will be exciting!
Voice [over a PA system]: Welcome to the jungle. Soon you will be confronted by a wild animal. As you know, the hunting instinct is triggered by weakness. If you show fear the animal will sense it. If you try to escape, the animal will hunt you down. But if you remain perfectly still, without moving a muscle, the animal might not notice you, and you can hide in the herd, safe in the knowledge that someone else will be the prey.

Cue Oleg.

Christian [making a video on his phone for the young boy who had been called a thief by him. Sort of.]: You can probabIy see who this is. We just met on my stairweII. I tried to caII, but I couIdn't get through. So now I'm making this video instead. Because you're absoIuteIy right. I apoIogize for the rotten thing I did. I accused you of being a thief. PIease show this to your parents, so they'II know you are not a thief. The note said you stoIe my phone and my waIIet, but that wasn't true. I want to emphasize that this is simpIy not true. So, I'd Iike to apoIogize. It was a bad thing to do. It was so seIfish of me. CareIess and prejudiced and I'm... Looking back, I shouId have gone into your buiIding, knocked on the doors and asked a simpIe question. But that never occurred to me, because... WeII, honestIy, I was too afraid. Afraid of the peopIe who Iive... Afraid of the peopIe I picture Iiving in a buiIding Iike yours. Those negative expectations say something about me. They say something about our society, because I'm sure I'm not the onIy one who's prejudiced... You have preconceptions about us too, probabIy because our Iives are so different. So suddenIy, it comes down to poIitics and the distribution of assets. Because these probIems can't be soIved by individuaIs aIone. Society needs to Iend a hand too. It's not enough that I admit I was wrong and apoIogize to you in a video. There are bigger, structuraI probIems invoIved that society needs to deaI with. I actuaIIy know one of the 291 peopIe who own more than 50% of the worId's weaIth. A guy Iike that couId fix aII this in an instant.

...

Man [in the audience after Christian announces his resignation over the youtube video]: You started out by saying that you and the museum board agreed that you shouId resign.
Christian: Yes, that was our decision. This is not the image we wish to project.
Man: So you've reached the Iimit for how much freedom of speech you can handIe? You've hit the ceiIing in terms of communication? Do you personaIIy beIieve that you crossed a Iine? Christian: I beIieve that freedom of speech comes with certain responsibiIities. You must consider what you express.
Man: But is it up to you to Iimit free speech? Isn't such seIf-censorship cause for concern? You're in a powerfuI position.
Christian: The decision was not aII mine.
Man: But you took part in this decision. You have cIearIy expressed that this cIip was so distastefuI that you feeI obIigated to resign.
Christian: I made a mistake, the cIip was pubIished without my approvaI.
Man: So that's where you draw the Iine? A fictionaI girI gets...
Christian: No, it isn't. Like I said, this has nothing to do with my own opinions.
Man: You're putting a cap on free speech!
Christian: These are not my personaI opinions. We're taIking about the museum and my professionaI roIe. What is it you don't understand about that?
Man: This is a highIy aIarming future you're creating for our society. Quite frankIy, it sucks!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Are you sane?

If you're lucky, you may be able to grapple with this in the privacy of your own home. And then decide that you either are or are not. And that may or may not be as far as it goes. But what happens when the question of your sanity leaks out into the world around you? What if others start to question it? What if it becomes entangled in the legal system? Or in the medical industrial complex? In other words, such that you may or may not have control over all of the pieces?

And then this: What's the difference between being sane, insane and unsane?

A young woman is committed to a mental institution. Voluntarily? Involuntarily? Inadvertently? By accident? And how exactly does that -- can that -- work? What sort of situations can arise where others are actually able to commit you to "treatments" that you have little or no control regarding? And for how long -- 24 hours? a week? a month? for the rest of your life? The fact is that most of us don't really have a clue as how all of this might unfold. So, while watching the film, we're thinking, "what could happen to me?"

But then almost immediately we start to question what we are seeing up on the screen. Is all of this actually unfolding, or is it all just part of her mental illness?

And then the part where it becomes a "thriller". The part where [for some of us] it clearly jumps the shark.

As for the ending: https://screenrant.com/unsane-movie-ending-explained/

From the director of Bubble above. One of my all time favorite "small films" by "big" directors.

IMDb

The film was shot entirely with an iPhone 7 Plus camera. In just 10 days. Steven Soderbergh's first horror/thriller movie.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsane_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/u7KZrt_cHH0

Unsane [2018]
Directed by Steven Soderbergh

David [voiceover]: I love it when you wear blue. I mean, I love you in anything. But you wore blue that first time I saw you, so anytime I see you in blue, it reminds me of how I felt at that moment. How I never really knew what being alive was until I saw you. You unlocked something inside me that day, something I didn't even realize was there. And right then, I knew that nothing in my life was ever going to be the same. In that moment, I was transformed permanently. You did that.

...

Sawyer: I'm named after my grandfather on my mother's side. He died of eye cancer.
Mark: Oh, shit. I'm sorry. I didn't...
Mark: That was you being funny?
Sawyer: Hey, if we can't laugh at cancer, who are we?
Mark: Oh. That's dark.
Sawyer: Hail Satan. Promise me one thing, Jesse.
Mark: It's Mark.
Sawyer: Yeah. Tonight's going to go how you want it to go. It's not even a question. But afterwards, you don't call me, you don't contact me. It's like we never met. You good with that?

Then things get weird.

Sawyer [describing the experience of being stalked]: Your life slips away from you, you know? Changing your phone number and your e-mail becomes normal. Changing your lunch hour every day becomes normal. Second-guessing every single thing you say in case it might be misinterpreted? Normal. Taking out a restraining order. Normal. Relocating to another city. Normal.
Counselor: But you still see your stalker everywhere?
Sawyer: Well, rationally, I know that this is my neuroses colluding with my imagination to manifest my worst fears. I know that. But I'm not rational. I'm alone in a strange city, and, uh, I never feel safe. Not for one minute. So what do I do? Where do I go? Or maybe I just surrender and accept that this is my life.
Counselor: That doesn't sound like much of a life.
Sawyer: No. Not one that I want to keep on living.

...

Sawyer [to the counselor]: Do you know the therapeutic index? It's, um...It's the ratio that measures the blood concentration of if a drug is toxic or when it's effective. The larger the therapeutic index, the safer the drug. The smaller, the more dangerous. That's how I'd see myself spending my final hours. Testing drugs.

Then things get weird again.

Nurse: I'm Nurse Boles. Can you strip down to your underwear for me? Please. Take off your clothes down to your underwear. And remove all your jewelry. Do you understand? If you need help removing your clothes...
Sawyer [totally perplexed]: Why?
Nurse: To check for identifying marks. Scars, birthmarks, moles. It's to protect you, the other patients, and the hospital.
Sawyer: Look, I'm not sure what's happening here...

...

Sawyer: There's been some kind of mistake.
Nurse: Your name is Sawyer Valentini.
Nurse: By signing this, you've consented to voluntary commitment for 24 hours.
Sawyer: No. The counselor said the form was routine.
Nurse: You signed it.

...

Doctor: Well, it says here that you've been assessed as a danger to yourself and to others. So that means more observation.
Sawyer: Doctor, look at me. Look at me. Doctor, I have a wonderful support system around me. I have family, I have friends, coworkers. I have neighbors. The best thing for me is to be surrounded by the people I love. Now, did I indicate to the counselor that I sometimes, occasionally, feel down? Sure, I did. But everybody does.

...

Doctor: It says here that you assaulted a staff member.
Sawyer: He looked like someone I knew.
Doctor: Yes, but it says here that you attacked him.
Sawyer: I... No. I was under a lot of stress. The police were supposed to come.
Doctor: And it says here that you assaulted a male patient, Jacob.
Sawyer: No. He...Look, I had a rough night. But look at me now.
Doctor: Right. So, because of the multiple acts of violence, we're looking at another seven days.

...

Nate: You're no different from anybody else in here. You gave them an in.
Sawyer: What are you talking about?
Nate: They brought up suicide. You bit. That's all they need. They've got beds. You've got insurance.
Sawyer: But I'm fine. I just needed to talk to somebody.
Nate: Yeah, that's why Highland Creek and all the other Highland Creeks and Tumbling Pines and Cedar Valleys under the ADS Health Enterprises umbrella exist. You talk, they find a way to keep you and get you admitted. And you stay locked up until Aetna, Blue Cross, Medicaid or whoever insures you will pay. Soon as the money runs out, you're cured.
Sawyer: But that's...that's...
Nate: Business. Business. Highland Creek is just like any other business in America. They got a number to hit every month. They need to admit as many patients to fill those beds to get that money. You know, the law of averages suggests that a percentage of the patients admitted to Highland Creek are in actual need of psychiatric care. It also suggests that a higher percentage...
Sawyer: Are just like me. They're locking up sane people for profit.
Nate: Yeah.
Sawyer: I'm here for seven days because my insurance company approved it.
Nate: Boom. It's not that bad. I mean, it's inhuman, but compared to where you could have landed?

So, is that how it really works? Or is this all really unfolding only in her head?

Sawyer: God, you're talking to me like we're in prison.
Nate: You're welcome. Don't cause any scenes. Don't make any enemies. Find a community, learn how to live with the routine. It'll be over before you know it.

Cue David Strine/George Shaw --- the stalker.

Sawyer: This man is called David Strine. And he's been following me and calling me and texting me and showing up at my job and breaking into my fucking house.
Nurse: Take your meds and move on.
Sawyer: No. I'm not going anywhere until the cops haul his ass into jail.
Nurse: George, did you do or say anything to provoke the patient?
Sawyer: Stop calling him that. His name is David. He's followed me all the way here from Boston.
George: I've never even been to Boston, though I am a Sox fan.

...

Doctor: Sawyer, based on what it says here, you are one incident away from being sent to the basement.
Sawyer: Look, I was sexually assaulted. Where's the outrage? Where's my advocate? Who do I report this to? And what's in the basement?

...

Sawyer: Your cell phone. I saw you. I know you have one. That's a major infraction of the rules. But guess what? I don't care, as long as I get to use it. Otherwise, I tell everyone.
Nate: Yeah. Your credibility is sky high around here.
Sawyer: You really want to take that chance?
Nate: You call the cops again, they'll do nothing...again.
Sawyer: I'm not calling the cops. I promise. And I'll suck your dick.

...

Angela [Sawyer's mom]: I want to see my daughter! Get her out here now! I'm not leaving, and I'm only going to get louder, so you probably should do something! She didn't know what she was signing. I want her released immediately. She's coming home with me.
Administrator: Mrs. Valentini, I understand your concern, but right now this is the best place for Sawyer.
Angela: Stuck in a hospital with her stalker is the best place for her?
Administrator: Highland Creek is a very ethical organization, Mrs. Valentini. The decision regarding Sawyer's admission was made by an attending psychiatrist in consultation with members of our clinical treatment team.
Angela: Are you going to release her?
Administrator: Sawyer is absolutely free to leave...once we're convinced that she no longer poses a clear threat to herself and others.
Angela: She doesn't. You only made her think she does so you could describe her as suicidal on your insurance claim.

...

Lawyer [on phone with Angela]: Pennsylvania state law mandates that a patient can only be held on involuntary commitment for seven days without a court order. And, look, they're not going to go to the hassle of getting a court order after her insurance stops paying. Is it inconvenient? Sure. Should something be done to stop it happening? Absolutely. As your lawyer, is it my priority getting Sawyer back into your care? It's number one. Keep me in the loop about the situation. If you think there's legal cause to intercede, I'll get right on it.

...

Sawyer: Uh, I'm on Facebook, but my account's private, so...
Ferguson: Right. Okay, that's no good, because he'd be able to, you know, figure out a friend of yours from marching band or a sorority sister and go get photos from them, create a bogus account and then try to friend you that way. Your friends know your e-mail. That's enough. Just delete the Facebook today. Um, and then talk to your friends, you know. Be open about this. Inform them what's going on. Tell them not to mention you. Don't tag you on Instagram. You know, uh, um...You know, baby showers or, you know, Chardonnay date with the girls. You know, whatever it is, if there's someone taking a picture, you do whatever you can to get out of it, all right? And think of your cell phone as your enemy. And this: your new best friend.
[he gives here a book titled THE GIFT OF FEAR]

But...

Sawyer [to Nate]: And now he's here. Or maybe it's all in my head.

...

David [with Sawyer in a padded cell]: I-I... I'm not gonna hurt you. I'm not gonna touch you. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. I just want to be here with you.
[she looks up at the camera]
David: Oh, I disconnected them.
Sawyer: You going to kill me?

...

David: I have this cabin in the woods in New Hampshire, in the White Mountains. It-It's totally off the grid. It's got its own solar, its own well. It's... It's so beautiful. Sawyer, we could be happy. We will... We will... We will... We will be happy.
Sawyer: We will never be happy! You could never make me happy! Look at where we are, David!! Look at what you've done!!

...

Sawyer: You're a fucking simpleton. Do you know that? You are a fucking dunce. That sweet, kind girl in your head? That's not me. Can I ask you a question, David? Who did this to you? Who rejected you? Did she let you down easy? Huh? "I'm flattered, David, but I don't want to ruin our friendship." She ghost you? Hmm? Hmm? She block your number? She unfriend you on Facebook? Vanish from your life? Or was it worse? Did she look like she was going to be sick? Hmm? Did she laugh in your face? Did she tell all her friends?
David: That's not you.
Sawyer: No? 'Cause I'm telling you, David. That's me. That's what I would've done. That's what I did. That's who you love. That's who you fucking dream of. That's who you've been stalking for the past two years!

...

Sawyer: Have you ever...Have you ever been with anyone else? Beyond your feelings for me, have you ever had sex with anyone? I'm not judging. I'm not. It's just...Fantasy and reality are two different things. I might not be what you want.
David: You're all I've ever wanted.
Sawyer: You've got nothing to compare me to.
David: That makes no sense.
Sawyer: I need you to see what you've been missing, I need you to see what you've been missing, and then decide if you still want me. David, I might be your last, but I can't be your first.
David: Uh, n-no. No. No, sorry. No.
Sawyer: Well, you would if you loved me. You say all the right things, David. Or what you think are the right things. Greeting card cliches and romance novel declarations of love. But that's not love.

...

Woman [on TV]: We sent Nate to follow up on rumors that the hospital was committing patients against their will. I never thought this would be the last story he ever wrote for us. It's a really tragic incident, and I hope it draws attention to a very important issue.
Reporter: ADS Health Enterprises, Highland Creek's parent company, has issued a blanket denial of the allegations made in Mr. Hoffman's story.

...

David [to Sawyer pretending to be unconscious]: You'll learn to love me. A year from now... maybe... maybe two... I was thinking that maybe we could start a family of our own. What do you think about that? A little girl with your eyes and your smile. Oh, that'd be perfect. You'd make such an amazing mother.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine you receive a mysterious message from a "UFO death cult" inviting you to revisit them. It's been ten years since you had managed your escape the first time. But, like so many, many others, you're after closure. So back you go.

And back we go to yet another "science-fiction horror" flick.

Things get tricky here. It's science fiction so there will be elements that may or may not be explainable one day by science. But it's also horror. So there may be elements that are entirely "supernatural". Stuff that is made up in someone's head. Stuff that may not actually be possible at all.

And then the part where it becomes pure "fantasy".

You simply have to accommodate whatever your own frame of mind might be about what you see up on the screen to whatever another's frame of mind might be. Sometimes they'll mesh, sometimes they won't.

If nothing else, we get to explore the phenomena of "cults". Why they exist, how they keep on managing to exist, the reasons that people might be drawn to them.

Sometimes it just revolves around living a meaningless, shitty, boring and/or almost-always-broke life. The promise of adventure -- or of "meaning", or of "family" -- can engender the sort of "suspension of disbelief" that enables you to dispense with "I" and become more at one with "we".

Here in fact we clearly see why they can be appealing to lots of different people. For one thing, you can convince yourself that it's not a "cult" at all; it's a "commune". You simply sink down into that soothing feeling of belonging to something much bigger than an infinitesimally tiny and insignificant "me".

And then [here] how this particular cult/commune gets sucked up into what amounts to more or less reasonable speculation about the nature of the "space-time continuum". Think of it all as a reflection on Nietzsche's eternal recurrence. Only the loops here are considerably shorter. Still, you find yourself pondering which option you might choose yourself if any of this really were actually possible.

On the other hand, one suspects that there was no "it" at Jonestown. Or in the Heaven's Gate compound. That was all just us.

Right?

As for the ending [not to mention with this one the beginning and the middle] this is one of those films that prompt "explanations" like this one: http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/featur ... esolution/

IMDb

The filmmakers use the song House of the Rising Sun throughout because the lyrics are in public domain, which helped them stay within their limited budget.

At one point in the movie, Benson is being shown a card trick by a member from the cult. The card which Benson draws is the King of Hearts, otherwise known as 'the Suicide King,' as it holds its sword behind its head. Benson believes that the cult is a suicide cult.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Endless_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/qMHpWCN0byw

The Endless [2017]
Directed by Justin Benson, Aaron Moorhead

Title card: "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown." H.P. Lovecraft

...

Justin: I said that right before we left, I was told that they were all were gonna kill themselves. And that's why we left the cult.
Aaron [of the video they just watched]: She didn't say anything about killing themselves. She didn't.
Justin: It's a UFO death cult. It's what they do. They just call it something different. I rescued us from a cult. I saved you from mass suicide. You're welcome.

...

Aaron: You know they used to feed us real food. You know, vegetables and fish that's not powder.
Justin: I'd rather be alive and eat Raman than be dead and eat corn.

...

Justin: I know they were going to do it, now they clearly are, so I was, like, ten years off.
Aaron: They didn't say anything about killing themselves. They said said they were going somewhere, and we don't know how long or where they were going...
Justin: Good.
Aaron: How's that good? If we were back at the camp, we'd have, like, good food and support, and we wouldn't be one dirty house away from being homeless.

That's the thing -- the draw -- with cults, right? Sustenance...and meaning.

Justin: And, um... the cult sent us a good-bye video.
Woman [just a voice counseling him]: Whoa. What was that like?
Justin: I mean, I was relieved, at first, because...they're not dead. And then I felt bad. Because now Aaron thinks I pulled him out all those years ago for no reason. All of his memories of the cult are as a kid or a teenager or whatever. So all those memories are good, and he sees our lives here as horrible. But, to me, the thing that makes our lives here better is thinking for ourselves.
Woman: Recovery from cult mind control is a lifelong process, and if he resents you for pulling him out, that's common.
Justin: Whether he resents me or he doesn't, feeling responsible for his well-being 24/7 is exhausting.

...

Justin: Why do you wanna go back?
Aaron: We can say good-bye. Get some closure. They were our family.
Justin [after a long pause]: One day. One night. We come straight back. Will that make you feel better? Uh...because if that'll get you out of this slump, we can go back.

...

Aaron: It's not a cult. It's a commune.
Justin: Uniforms. Redefining words. Calling death "ascension." Worshipping a deity in the forest that no one else knows about. And...castration.
Aaron: Okay, yeah, that's a cult. But I actually don't remember any of those things. I just remember, like, bonfires, family time, and good food. It wasn't like they were keeping us prisoner or anything.

...

Aaron: Actually, hang on a second. If they were gonna be, like, pointing machine guns at our heads and make us drink cyanide Kool-Aid, why would you be driving us there right now?
Justin: All right, I never saw anything specifically like that. But in your distorted memory, we were, like, petting deer and dancing with koalas.
Aaron: We were, I remember that.

...

Justin [now at the cult, looking at a chalkboard with an obscure mathematical equation on it]: You, uh... you figure it out yet?
Aaron: Not yet. Eventually, though.
Justin: I gotta ask...what's it solve?
Aaron: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

...

Hal: Listen, uh, I just wanted to tell you again that everything you did, it ranges from "I don't care" to "All is forgiven." Now, that being said, why come back now?
Justin: The video you sent.
Hal: What video?
Justin: The video. With Anna talking about...the end.
Hal: Never been a suicide on this property that I'm aware of. In fact, I can assure you that nothing here ends. All that happens here is that people live long and healthy lives. Because of that, they grow to be the people they want to be. Pretty simple. There is something bigger than us out here. And now that you're both at an age where you can understand it, it'll become...evident.

...

Aaron: Hey, why doesn't Dave talk?
Anna: Brain injury. Hal says he fell off a building while working construction, and Tim told me it was self-trephination. You drill a hole in your skull so you stay permanently high. He drilled too far.

...

Hal [to everyone]: All right! Who's ready for The Struggle?

...

Hal: It's like I said. You're at an age now where you can become a part of it. So it's gonna be more apparent.
Justin: Yeah, but you always speak in metaphors.
Hal: So you don't trust me? And you're gonna stand there, you're gonna tell me that you have never experienced anything before?
Justin: I mean, I remember some things from when I was a kid, but kids have imaginations, and as a grown man now, I guess the reason why I sort of dramatically asked you to come out here is for you to just tell me, in your own words, what..is...it?

...

Hal: Who's the leader here, Justin?
Justin: Uh, you?
Hal: There's never been one. I just talk more. It's not a very flattering quality, if you ask me, but one of the things that I talk a lot about is that I don't have answers. None of us do. You wanna know what it is that runs all this? You go find it.

...

Hal: You know that physics equation in my room?
Justin: Yeah.
Hal: That's what it is to me. And I still haven't finished that. But what I can tell you, is if you and Aaron, you stay one more day, you go fishing in the lake, and you go out to this buoy, you dive straight down and you grab what you find there. You're gonna have your answer.
Justin: You know how culty that sounds, right?
Hal: Confirm this thing for yourself and you've gotta admit it. There it is. A higher power? A governing force? God? Infinity solved. Now, wouldn't that be a weight off your shoulders? And if you like having that weight gone, you and Aaron have a home here.

...

Aaron: This is why you sent me that video.
Anna: What?
Aaron: The video you sent us talking about the ascension.
Anna: No, I didn't. I mean, yes, I made videos in case you or my sister or someone came back to the camp and we weren't here, but, no, I didn't. I didn't send that. That's really strange because we all kind of agreed that we wouldn't share things like that, especially after your brother, you know?
Aaron: My brother what?

...

Jennifer: You're...You're all harmless. A little brainwashed but mostly harmless.
Justin: So you're not part of the camp?
Jennifer: My husband Mike disappeared near here. So I came out looking for him. He just sort of lost it. And I wandered until I almost passed out. Must have been dehydration or something. Hal found me. He said we'd find him. It'd take some time... but we'd find him.
Justin: So how's the search going?

...

Aaron: There's something out here, isn't there?
Justin: Yeah. Yeah, there is.
Aaron: I saw some things last night that... I... I can't... Hey, you're gonna hate this. Um... But what if we stayed?
Justin: Like permanently?
Aaron: Yeah. You know, we'd be taken care of. Nothing to worry about except for doing our own thing. There's kind of an order to things here, you know? It's fair. Like something really is watching out for us.
Justin: I don't know. I always thought that if I did experience that there was something more to all of this, that I'd like start going to church or something.

...

Justin: Last night I was walking back to the cabin and there was this girl at one of the cabins, and she was...
Aaron: What?
Justin: She wasn't all "Kumbaya" like the rest of the camp. She was really scared and sad about something. I don't know, I just...I don't think comfort is worth dying for.
Aaron: Look, man, there is no mass suicide here. You're, like, leaping to conclusions. We can't go back to our, like, regular shitty lives knowing that there's actually something out here.

...

Aaron [watching Justin shed his clothes in a boat in the middle of a lake]: What are you doing? What are you doing?
Justin: Hal said the answer is at the bottom of this lake. So I am going to bottom of this lake. Answer to what? Exactly what "it" is.

Justin [after leaping back into the boat]: It's not a god, it's a monster!
Aaron: What?!
Justin: There's something down there! I saw it! It held me down!
Aaron: What?!!
Justin: I don't know! Go!

...

Justin [back on shore]: We're leaving.
Aaron: It's a tape.
Justin: I don't care, we're leaving.
Aaron: Look, man, I know you've been just dying to make something up and get me out of here. But I didn't see a monster or anything. And actually, everything's fine here.
Justin: Fine, you can stay. I'm leaving.

Cue "the tape".

Hal: Everybody...Justin and Aaron found a message in the lake today. That's awesome. We haven't had one of those in a while. Thought we'd have a viewing ceremony. To send 'em off.
Aaron: What is it?
Hal: It's how it communicates with us. With images.
[then the tape plays]
Michael [on tape]: I'm, uh... I'm Michael. So you guys are, like, in a church group?
Justin [tens years ago]: Uh, nice to meet you, Mike. We're prophets of the Camp Arcadia faith. Our whole thing is just making sure that people know that self-sacrifice for the one true god is the only way to begin the journey into the cosmos.
Aaron: Yeah, Justin's taught me a whole lot about our coming apocalypse, so, you know, if you ever wanna come worship with us at the camp, we'd love to have you. We're just devoted to...to...to...to...to...to

...

Hal [following the brothers out of the building]: Guys, guys, guys. Guys, wait up. I didn't know that's what it would be. It's not supposed to be embarrassing. It's a lesson.
Aaron: What does that mean?
Hal: Forgiveness. We forgive you for going out and evangelizing us as a UFO death cult or whatever. Then telling the press, among other things, that all of us are castrated.
Aaron: You are castrated.
Hal: As far as I know, everybody here has their sex organs.
Aaron [to Justin]: You told me the camp... they had to do that. That they sanctioned all of that.
Justin: I never said that.
Aaron: Yes, you did! Why...Why did we tell that story?
Justin: I knew there was something wrong here. And there is something very wrong here. And I did what I had to do to keep to safe.

Now what to believe?

Justin: Fuck you.
Hal: I pulled the both of you out of your mother's burning car. I gave you food, I gave you shelter, I gave you every opportunity to grow. And what you did to undermine us...Let's just forget the fact that we are never gonna get Dave to take that damned white button-up shirt off...Can you imagine trying to sell your beer when someone can find a news article that makes you look like a dickless, poison Kool-Aid drinking, Heaven's Gate offshoot? That is our livelihood. So, no! Fuck you!!

...

Shitty Carl: So, a decade ago, I tell you that you're livin' in some sort of death cult, and not only were you not bright enough then to figure it out, you actually came back. You are not smart. You never have been, no. I mean, all kids are dumb, but you're like some sort of retarded hobbit or something.
Justin: I'm sorry. I, uh...I don't know how I got lost. I don't know how you're hanging in there and standing in front of me. I don't understand what's going on at that camp.
Shitty Carl: Bunch of loopin' prisons, man. Like shitty pods of time. Repeatin' over and over and over again like rats tellin' stories for that thing's amusement!...You gotta kill yourself before the restart or that thing, that thing'll do it for ya. And it's much worse than anything you can do to yourself....But the camp prefers that thing doin' it for 'em, doesn't it? Yeah, considers it sacred even.

...

Tim [to Aaron]: Don't do it if you don't want to.

...

Justin: I just really got to get back to Camp Arcadia and get back to my brother.
Shitty Carl: I can do that for you.
Justin: Great. How do I get back?
Sitty Carl: Oh, not for free. Big 'ol fuck no. No, you gotta suck my dick first.
Justin: What?
Shitty Carl: You have to suck my dick first.

He's just fucking with him. But right about now you are completely bewildered. About, for example, whatever might happen next.

Sitty Carl: All right, and you'll find this smelly junkie named Chris who's got a gun collection that'd give Yosemite Sam a boner. Now, you bring me back a real nice one. Okay? And I'll draw you one of these fancy maps, get you back to your brother. Oh, and, uh...use this compass. And trust only this compass, not what you see.
Justin: All right.
Shitty Carl: It doesn't let me sleep. Funny thing is, I don't get tired. I just... It doesn't let me dream. It does that so my mind never leaves this place. These three hours...Using space and time as its horsewhip.

...

Hal [of "it"]: I have this theory that it's made up of impossible colors. See, retinas only have three types of cone cells, so maybe none has the signal strength to see it in our normal state. Just a theory, though. What we do know is that... it shows us what it sees. It has a powerful elegance to it.
Aaron: So, it was looking at me. Why did it send me a picture of a trailer?
Hal: Probably where to go.
Aaron: I was actually gonna go find Justin.
Hal: Well, there you go.

...

Hal: I don't know anything anybody else doesn't know about life. But last night's got me thinking. Can you have power over yourself, if you give up any amount of authority to something else?
Aaron: I mean... I really do have to find Justin. I mean, it's a good question. Always has been, always will be.

...

Hal: I really hope you make your own choice. Before the third moon is full.
Aaron: Hal? Hal. Tell me what that means.
Hal: Saying more would be like trying to explain an impossible color.

...

Mike [on a videotape]: Can we try it another way?
Mike: I guess that didn't work.
Justin: What was that?
Mike: It was either our past or our future. Doesn't really make any difference. Practically the same thing. See, we've been stuck in this infinite loop, and we've been trying to do different things to get out of it, and I guess that didn't work.

...

Chris [to Justin]: Hey, can I impart some wisdom upon you? Don't ever give in. Not once. The trick to this whole thing is to not be afraid of something that's...that's horrifying. And everyone's afraid of it. But if you let it control you one time, it's gonna fucking control you over and over again. I mean, look at me and Mike. We're just a couple of assholes taking someone else's shit. You gotta floor it the fuck out of here. And if you see that thing, you don't apologize to it, you don't bow down to it, you don't conform, you just fucking run. Like your life fucking depends on it, man, because your fucking life does depends on it.

...

Mike: You know, it is so strange seeing how close another loop is to this one, closed, shitty little area.
Justin: How long have you been stuck in this loop?
Mike: Well, that's hard to tell. I mean, when we first got here, I said if I got Chris clean in a week, we'd leave, and that was, um... that was a lot of weeks ago. Yeah, I keep thinking there's like this configuration that's gonna break us out of the story, you know, like a "Life Rubik's Cube." The one thing I do know for certain is I would rather reset things on my terms than allow that fucker to do it for me.

...

Mike [about to set fire to his whole world, to "it"]: Because fuck you.

...

Aaron: I gotta talk to you about something.
Justin: Great. Tell me on the way back to the car.
Aaron: No, man. Can you just have a seat for a second? I'm staying. You can stay, too. I know you're not going to, but, you know...you can.
Justin: You wanna die over and over and over and live your life on repeat from here to eternity?
Aaron: You act like it's crazy, like I'm the first person in history that actually wants to live forever. With people that like him. You know, there's not much difference between being stuck in a loop and being stuck repeating the same shitty day over and over like back home until I die.
Justin: But back home, anything could happen. It could be so much better than the camp.
Aaron: We tried that, man. For almost a decade. And I'm ready to go back to not hating my life. Dying just takes a second. And a shitty life is long.
Justin: Aaron, I think you are making a very, very big decision with very little thought. And you realize that you do this once and you can never leave?
Aaron: Anything is better than the life you make me live.

...

Justin: I'll feel guilty the rest of my life if I leave you here, so I guess I'm staying, too.
Aaron: You're respecting my decision to stay?
Justin: Uh, I guess. If that's the way you wanna think about it, yeah, sure, I'm doing that.
Aaron: All right. Let's go.
Justin: What?
Aaron: All I ever wanted was...

Cue the script.

Justin [to Aaron]: All right, listen, on tombstones it says things like "Beloved Mother" or "Beloved Brother", not "Beloved Camp Member". And there's a reason for that.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Over and over and over again it happens. This: one or another prominent member of the male species, letting his johnson do the thinking for him, stumbles into a quagmire that all but upends his lifelong ambitions.

The only difference here being that the woman involved ended up losing her life. And, as a result of that, well, who is really to say what the existential ramification of this particular tragedy were? But at the very least [politically] they were enormous.

Chappaquiddick probably cost Edward M. Kennedy the White House. And we will never know what impact that had on the trajectory of world events themselves. Still, it was Mary Jo Kopechne who had lost her life. 28 years old and gone forever. Another one of history's "footnotes".

But the arc of this story focused more on the extent to which her death might have been avoided. Some insist that not only had Kennedy let his own pecker do the thinking for him here, but it was argued in turn by many that he had abandoned the scene of the accident itself.

Did he leave her there to die?

Is there any way in which to determine this for sure? What was in fact the relationship between Kennedy and Kopechne? What did in fact happen that night? So, even here we need the equivalent of God to know for sure. Folks put on their political caps and the conflicting narratives soon overwhelm us. But to this day there is still no definitive account of how the accident unfolded and who did what when and why in the aftermath of it. There are only the facts that cannot be disputed and then the spin each one of us put on them.

IMDb

How Ted Kennedy got out of the car has never been explained. Neither he nor all the investigators (and investigations) offered an explanation.

The car, a late model Oldsmobile with a curb height overall of about 4 feet, was lying on its crushed-in top and the wheels were out of water at low tide. High tide at Edgartown that night came at 3:54 A.M., and its rise and fall is only 2 feet. The accident, if it occurred around 11:30 P.M., came at about two hours after low tide, and therefore there could not have been much more than 4 feet of water, and perhaps less, at the point where the car lay. The bottom is presumably sandy, since the entire island is made of sand. Senator Kennedy gave credit to Messrs. Markham and Gargan for having "dived" at "risk to their lives" in an attempt to reach Miss Kopechne. It would be more appropriate to refer to wading and stooping.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5270948/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/qG-c8DtOm9g

Chappaquiddick [2017]
Directed by John Curran

Various news accounts: Lieutenant Joe Kennedy, Jr., the eldest son of former ambassador died instantly, after the plane he was piloting exploded during a mission over the North Sea....President Kennedy was shot as he drove from Dallas airport to downtown Dallas, an ambulance, and the car rushed to...Bobby Kennedy was shot at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles....Senator Edward Kennedy, the only one of the four brothers left alive. Teddy Kennedy would most certainly be the candidate to beat in the next presidential election. But will he run? That's the question. Will Ted Kennedy run?

...

Joe [Gargan]: I'm still getting the cottage organized for the party.
Ted: Joey, there is no party without the Boiler Room Girls.
Joe: All right, I'll see what I can do....
Ted: Listen, listen, listen. Ol' Joey will fix it, right?
Joe: You know, when your dad said that, it was a compliment.
Ted: When my dad said that, he said I could always count on you. Now, can I count on you? Joe: Yeah. Sure. Ol' Joey will fix it.

...

Rachel: Did he ask? Did he hint in any way?
Mary Jo: Even if he did, do you really think I would tell you?
Rachel: I've kept bigger secrets. Hmm. I'll take that as a yes. You're brilliant, Mary Jo, and you're available. There is no reason why he wouldn't want you.

...

Rachel: Last time we talked, you said you'd never go back.
Mary Jo: To Washington?
Rachel: To politics.
Mary Jo: With Bobby it was different. It didn't feel like politics. It felt like public service. And after he was gone, I...

Cue Ted.

Ted: Did you consider my offer?
Mary Jo: It'll never be the same.
Ted: You can't hide in Jersey City forever. Come back to Washington, work on my staff.

...

Ted: My dad once said to me..."Teddy, you can lead a serious life or you can lead a nonserious life. And I'll still love you whichever choice you make. But if you choose to lead a non-serious life, | just won't have much time for you."
Mary Jo: I can't believe he would say something like that.
Ted: No, it's okay. I was just a kid.

...

Ted: What were you gonna say before? Before you were interrupted, about Bobby?
Mary Jo: Um... No, never mind.
Ted: No, go on. You were gonna ask, after Bobby was killed, why didn't I run in his place? What would you have done? If you were me and he was your brother, what would you have done?
Mary Jo: I'd quit, leave Washington, never look back. Which is exactly what I did. But I'm not you. He wasn't my brother.
Ted: Yeah, well, I had three generations of advisors up my ass, trying to convince me to run. None of them listened to me. I mean, everyone tried to convince me otherwise. Everyone except...Except Joey. Said the country needed me. They just needed my name. I wasn't ready.
Mary Jo: Could you ever be?
Ted: Sometimes the path you're on isn't always the path you choose.
Mary Jo: What's stopping you from making that choice yourself?

...

Joe: What the hell happened to you?
Ted: You better get Paul too.
Joe: Come on, Teddy, what's the big idea?
Ted: I'm not gonna be president.

...

Ted [aloud to himself on the bridge while Joe is underwater trying to get Mary Jo out of the car]: Oh, my God, what have I done? What have I done? She was already dead.

...

Joe: Teddy, listen to me. The only advice l have for you, and...and I say this to you not as your friend, not as your family, but as your lawyer...you gotta report this thing and you've gotta do it right now.

...

Joe: Teddy, promise me you're gonna call your mother first. Don't let her find out about another family tragedy in the news.

...

Joe: Ted! You'll report it, right?
Ted: I'll handle it.

...

Ted [on the phone]: Dad, I'm sorry to be calling so late, I...I've gotten myself into the deepest kind of trouble. There was an accident and, well, one of Bobby's secretaries is dead. And l was driving. No one else was involved. And I'm okay. I may have had too much to drink. l just don't know. I don't know. I need your help, Dad. Need it. Dad? Dad?
Joe: Al...alibi.

...

Ted Sorenson [on phone]: Well, who was driving?
Ted: I'd say she was.
Ted S.: Then I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Ted: And that story plays?
Ted S.: That's what happened, isn't it?

...

Paul [watching the police at the bridge]: He didn't report it.
Joe: That son of a bitch.

...

Joe: You were supposed to report the accident. What the hell happened last night?
Ted: I didn't report it.
Joe: Oh, my...Shit! What could you possibly be thinking? How could you let this much time go by?
Ted: Well, did you see the police arrive at the cottage last night?
Joe: No.
Ted: No. No? Well, don't you think, if I had reported it, the police would have been there within the hour?
Joe: I guess so.
Ted: I thought this matter had been handled. I thought I could count on you. The moment the police didn't arrive at the cottage, you should have known. You should have known it was your responsibility to report it to the authorities.
Joe: What the hell are you talking about?
Ted: No, you bungled this, Joey. You bungled it. Now I gotta deal with it myself.

...

Joe: We're all three implicated in this now. You can't just go and pull this John Wayne shit! They're treating this like a crime scene. There's a dead girl out there, for Christ's sakes.
Paul: Attorney-client privilege doesn't extend to aiding and abetting.
Joe: I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. This situation's a lot worse than it was. You put us in a very difficult position, Senator. Look, none of us has to lose our jobs over this. You're gonna protect Paul and me, and yourself. Okay? You just have to do what you know is right.
Ted: Okay. I'll report it. But I'm going to have to say Mary Jo was driving.
Joe: Christ.
Ted: Joey, I love you, okay? You know that. But we both know what's at stake here.

...

Chief: Are you saying that there's a possibility that maybe she didn't drown?
Diver: Hey, when l was down there, she was holding herself up like she was trying to get her last breath of air. I could have had her out of that car in 25 minutes if I got the call, but no one called.

...

Ted [on phone]: David. We have a situation here on Chappaquiddick.
David: What kind of situation?
David: Okay, but I'll be more ready when I know what it's about.
Ted: Listen, the situation is, my car was involved in an accident. I am going to be saying that I wasn't the one driving.
David: Well, were you driving? Senator.
[Ted says nothing]
David: Were you driving? Senator.
[Ted still says nothing]
David: Were you driving? Senator. Were you driving? Senator? Senator, are you okay? Was anyone hurt? Have the police been notified?
[Ted sees the ambulance drive by with Mary Jo's dead body]
David: Ted, it would help a lot if you gave me some details. Ted? Ted, are you there?
Ted: Uh, that's all you need to know for now.

...

Joe [to the "Boiler Room girls"]: Senator Kennedy's car went off the bridge at Poucha Pond last night. He's okay, but we cannot find Mary Jo.
Rachel: Are the police looking for her?
Joe: I want you to know that every effort possible was made to save her.
Rachel: Oh, my God, she's dead.

...

Ted [on the phone]: Hello, Mrs. Kopechne? This is Senator Ted Kennedy, Mrs. Kopechne. Could I please speak to your husband?
Mrs. Kopechne: Oh, Senator. Joseph's not here at the moment. Can I take a message for him? Ted: Mrs. Kopechne, Mary Jo was involved in an accident.
Mrs. Kopechne: Was it in a car?
Ted: It was an automobile accident. She was...She was returning to take a ferry back to the mainland when the accident occurred.
Mrs. Kopechne: Was my daughter killed?
Ted: Yes....Mary Jo was an exceptional human being. She served my brother and my family with grace, dignity...
[call disconnects]

...

Ted [on the phone]: Dad, I'm at the police station. I'm telling you this because I wanted to let you know that I am going to explain to them what happened. And I'm going to say that l was the one driving. I will protect myself, but I have to do what's right. I have to tell the truth.
Joe [gruffly]: Alibi.
Ted: I'm not going to be the one defined by my flaws. Joe Jr. was the favorite one. Jack was the charming one. Bobby was the brilliant one. And what did that leave me, Dad? The fat one? The stupid one? I'll tell you what. The one who got in the most trouble. Well, I can be charming. I can be brilliant. I can... I am the only son you got left. I'm the one making this decision, Dad. I'm the one...
Ann: Ted, he's writing something. He says, "You're the head of the family now. Start acting like it. "
[he hangs up]

...

Ted [on the phone]: Dun, I need you on the next plane to Edgartown.
Dun: Yeah, I've been expecting your call. David filled me in.
Ted: Good. Listen, we've made mistakes here. I want you to understand that. But I want to make sure, going forward, we handle everything with the utmost integrity.
Dun: I understand.
Ted: We need to make sure the poor girl's body gets to her family right away. Can you...Can you do that for me?
Dun: Uh, okay, but there may be a delay if they want to perform an autopsy.
Ted: Why do you think I want it out of here? Can you handle this or not?
Dun: Of course, Senator, but what if they demand...

So much for integrity.

Ted: I have a statement I'd like to read, if that's okay.
Chief: Okay.
Ted: "On July 18, 1969, at approximately 11:15 pm. in Chappaquiddick, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, l was driving my car on Main Street on the way to get the ferry back to Edgartown. l was unfamiliar with the road and turned right onto Dike Road instead of bearing a hard left onto Main Street. After proceeding for approximately one half mile I discovered a hill and came upon a narrow bridge...then went off the edge of the bridge. There was one passenger in the car with me, Miss Mary Jo Kopechne. She was a former secretary of my brother Robert F. Kennedy. The car turned over and landed on the roof, resting on the bottom. I attempted to open the door and the window of the car, and have no recollection of how I got out. I came to the surface and then repeatedly dove down to see if the passenger was still in the car. I was unsuccessful in the attempt. I was exhausted and in a state of shock. I recall walking back to where my friends were eating. I then asked someone to bring me back to Edgartown. I remember walking around for a period of time and then going to my hotel room. When I fully realized what had happened this morning, I immediately contacted the police."

...

Ted: I'm glad to see you, Dad. You look good. I want to tell you again how sincerely sorry I am that I ever let a thing like this happen. And reassure you that I have the situation, as terrible as it is, under my complete control. I know...I'm sorry I got us into this. But if you can trust me, Dad, I have faith I can get us out.
[His father hands Ann a note]
Ann: Your father would like to tell you... "You've lost my confidence. Do as I say and never lose it again. Otherwise, it will be a nearly impossible task to restore it."

...

Ted [to the team that Joe has assembled]: Gentlemen, I appreciate you all making this short trip on my behalf. But I hope you'll understand I'm going to handle this with my own team, since it's my political future here at stake.
Bob [McNamara]: You won't have a political future if you're in jail, Ted. You're fighting a battle on two fronts and you don't even know it.
Ted: I think you need to cool down here, Bob. Okay? I understand my problem with the press and with the people of Massachusetts.
Bob: You're also in serious legal trouble, son. Teddy.
Ted S.: Teddy, if they find that your negligence contributed to this girl's death, that's involuntary manslaughter.
Bob: If there's even a whisper that you're not as clean as Mother Teresa, you will be charged. And there's not a lot of senators that are charged with manslaughter that go on to become president.

...

Bob: "Problems," Ted. Problems, plural. They are threefold. One, the information we know that we need to make sure no one else knows. Two, the information we don't know that we need to make sure stays unknown. Three, the information that you have already admitted to that we need to make people forget. Now, to the first point. A dead body holds a lot of secrets. Those secrets can be the difference between guilt and innocence, so we need to be in control of them. The only way to do that is to be in control of that dead girl's body.
Ted: Good. Because my staffer, Dun Gifford, is already at the funeral home right now. And that poor girl's body isn't going anywhere except home to New Jersey without us knowing about it.
Bob: Senator, with all due respect, having a gofer sitting on his hands in the lobby isn't getting us anywhere. Now, there are explicit procedures that must be followed for moving a body across state lines. Do you have any idea, has the death certificate even been signed yet?

Cue the strings attached to those in power. Sometimes they're conservative, sometimes liberal. Now it's all about damage control, about "owning" the story.

Ted S.: There's nothing left to do but run out the clock, gentlemen. Come 5:00 pm, we'll be back out in front of the problem.
Ted: Actually, New York Times already has a story.
Ted S.: What? Excuse me?
Ted: On my way to the station, I bumped into a reporter. Seemed to know that l was involved in an accident.
Ted S.: Who was it, Ted? What was his name?
Ted: James Reston.

...

Ted [on phone]: Now, remember, Dick, this is an exclusive. You don't need to overdo it. We're just trying to make sure this doesn't spin out of control into something like manslaughter...or an affair, God forbid.
Dick: You don't need to say another word.
Ted: And throw in something about me being on sedatives. Make it sound dramatic.

...

Ted: Okay, look, we're not sunk yet. That statement's pretty airtight.
Bob: Oh, airtight, huh? You contradict yourself in the first two sentences. Main road's paved, Teddy. Dike Road's not. Doesn't take an expert cartographer to tell the difference. And what about this deputy that saw your car driving away from the ferry at a quarter to 1:00 in the morning?
Ted: Yeah, well, that's just his word against mine.
Bob: We gotta go through his statement line by line.

...

Ted: Guys, guys, I think we're overreacting here. All right? Dick's running the concussion story. That's going to explain any inconsistencies.
Woman: Dick Drayne on line three.
Ted: This should be interesting. Dick, you're on with the boys. So, did the sedative stuff play?
Dick [on the phone]: Did any of you guys actually consult a physician?
Ted: Yeah, of course.
Dick: Well, according to Reston, you don 't give sedatives to a patient who's had a concussion. It could kill them.
Bob: Good Lord. Bay of Pigs was a better run operation.

...

Ted [on the way to Mary Jo's funeral]: Thanks for doing this, Joany.
Joan: Go fuck yourself, Teddy.

...

Ted: Tragedy has a way of defining people. On one hand, you have someone like Jackie who goes and practically becomes ambassador for the family. Keeping the legacy alive. On the other hand, a tragedy like this cripples some people...till they curl up into a ball. Joany's more the latter.
Rachel: I think there's a third kind of person. The kind of person who defines their own legacy.
Ted: I think my chance to define my legacy died with Mary Jo.

...

Rachel: Senator, look at Mr. and Mrs. Kopechne. They don't blame you. Why should America?

...

Ted S.: Those are the Boston papers. You want to hear from the New York Times?
Ted: No, I got it. The neck brace was a mistake. I see that now.

...

Ted [to "the team" about a national televised statement]: We tell the truth. Or at least our version of it.

...

Ted: We need to remind the people that this family perseveres, that we don't back down from a fight, that we don't get backed into a corner. We have a true compass and we follow it. Now I followed mine the best I could that night. And me and Paul and Joe, we did everything we could to save that poor girl.
Bob: You got a winner there, son.
Ted S.: Amen to that, Bob. Son of a bitch, that's a hell of a winner. We get Sorensen to dress this speech up, you might make it through this thing unscathed. If we do this right, you might be more electable. That's good.
Joe [tossing a newspaper down on the table]: A girl dies, and yet somehow Ted is the martyr? Think about it. Do we really want to prop him up as an injured hero here?
Ted S.: This strategy's the only thing we've come up with that has a chance of saving Ted. We need to all get behind it.
Joe: I'm telling you, these theatrics are not gonna hold up in a court of law!
Bob: He's right. We need to make sure this case is closed before Ted talks to the press.
Paul: The hearing's not till Monday.
Ted S.: Then we move it up immediately or we will not survive the weekend.

The fix is in.

Ann: Your father wanted to speak with you.
Ted [leaning in toward him]: What is it, Dad?
[Joe slaps him across the face]
Ted: Ann, I need you to leave us, please. It's very rare these days I'm alone with my father and the things I need to say to him, I need to say to him in private.
Ann [turning to leave the room]: Of course, Teddy.

...

Ted: Dad, did you know I never wanted to be president? Does it even matter to you? I wanted to make you proud. That's all I've ever wanted. I spent my whole life chasing your dreams for you, just like Joe and just like Jack and just like Bobby, and look what happened to them. They were great men but they weren't great because of who you were. hey were great because of who they were. Dad...I want to be a great man. l just don't know who I am.
Joe [gripping Ted roughly at the back of the neck]: You...will never...be great.

...

Ted [to Joe about to leave]: Joey, no. I need you...
Joe: If it's about the statement, I want nothing to do with it.
Ted: Just the opposite. I need you to write me a resignation.
Joe [relieved]: I'll take care of it.
Ted: Thank you. For the last time.
Joe: I'm proud of you.
Ted: Well, don't tell anyone else how proud you are. And let's just keep this between the two of us.

...

David Brinkley [on a newscast]: Senator Edward Kennedy, the only one of the four brothers left alive, went into court today and pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident where a young woman drowned. He got a sentence of two months in jail, the sentence suspended, and a year's probation. The judge gave him the minimum jail sentence and suspended that, because, he said, Kennedy already had been and would be punished more than anything the court could do to him.

...

Brinkley: Kennedy will make a statement on television tonight at 7:30 Eastern Time. It will, of course, be seen live. It will be a statement only. No reporters will be allowed in, by his decision, and so no questions will be asked. We've heard speculation on the possibility he might resign from the Senate. But it is only speculation, and we don't know what he will say.

...

David: Okay, so for the first half of the speech, we felt it would seem more stately for you to be reading. Then halfway through, we have you make a direct appeal to the voters. And we think, in order to get them to really want to write in, mail letters and show their support for you and the family, you should look straight into camera, set the papers down, and just talk from the heart.
Ted: David, I'm not off-script on this.
David: No, no, we'll have cue cards. They're being done right now.

...

Ted: I've been thinking. Joey, we both have flaws, do we not?
Joe: Yeah, of course we do. We all do.
Ted: Right. Right. I thought that myself.
Joe: What's right is here in front of you.
Ted: I don't know what's right anymore.
Joe: Ted, I didn't say this before, but I agree with you that Kennedys do have a true compass. And it's because you're following yours that we're here right now. You told the police that you were driving. You told the truth. You had me write this resignation.
Ted: Sorensen's speech...
Joe: Sorensen's speech is bullshit. Every word of it. He made it up. All the thoughts and emotions. I was there. I've been there with you from the very beginning.
Ted: This may give me a chance at a new beginning.
Ted: Joey, you have flaws. We all do. You said so yourself. Moses had a temper. Peter betrayed Jesus. I have Chappaquiddick.
Joe: Yeah, Moses had a temper, but he never left a girl at the bottom of the Red Sea.

Cue the shamelessly scripted address to the nation. Did Joe Gargan really hold up the cue cards for Kennedy?

Ted [ending his statement to the nation]: These events, the publicity, innuendo and whispers which have surrounded them, and my admission of guilt this morning, raises the question in my mind of whether my standing among the people of my state has been so impaired that I should resign my seat in the United States Senate. The stories of past courage cannot supply courage itself. For this, each man must look into his own soul. And so I ask you tonight, the people of Massachusetts, to think this through with me. In facing this decision, I seek your advice and opinion. In making it, I seek your prayers. For this is a decision that I will finally have to make on my own. I pray that I can have the courage to make the right decision. Whatever is decided, whatever the future holds for me, I hope that I shall be able to put this most recent tragedy behind me. Thank you and good night.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

They're back. Mysterious creatures bent on making your days a living hell. But: where did they come from and why are they here? Maybe they're from outer space; maybe they're from the realm of the supernatural; maybe they're just inside your head.

But make no mistake about it: they always have one or another attribute that becomes critical in either identifying them, or [sometimes] in destroying them.

This one? Sound. "If they hear you, they hunt you". But you can kill them in turn with just the right sound. And a shotgun.

All of this is important [for some] because depending on the extent that you can imagine something like it happening to you, the more likely it will frighten you.

Here they are "sightless extraterrestrial creatures" that have "hypersensitive hearing, indestructible armored skin, and attack anything that makes noise". So, it's a good thing that all of the characters here are able to communicate using ASL. But these calamities are always more problematic when small children are involved. How to explain it to them? How to protect them? And, most crucially, how to keep them from making the sort of mistakes that imperils them all? As they do twice in the first 15 minutes.

Anyway, don't expect a whole lot of dialogue below.

Then this: How much sound is too much sound? A belch? Passing gas? Snoring? Bringing a baby into this world? Cue the script.

So, how plausable is all this? Not very much. Still it is easy enough to imagine them as something that is far more likey to happen. So the fear factor then is always plausable. On the other hand, there are any number things that just don't seem all that logical. You wonder why the characters do what they do when you would have done something entirely different. And lots and lots of holes in the plot.

Shh...

IMDb

Actor-director John Krasinski has said that the single greatest compliment he received regarding the film, was in a tweet from the master of the horror story himself, Stephen King: "A QUIET PLACE is an extraordinary piece of work. Terrific acting, but the main thing is the SILENCE, and how it makes the camera's eye open wide in a way few movies manage".

The filmmakers purchased twenty tons of corn and hired local farmers to grow it.

John Krasinski and Emily Blunt are married both in this film and in real life. As of the film's release, they have two daughters.

The movie only contains about 25 lines of dialogue. The first proper line of dialogue isn't spoken until about 38 minutes into the film.

During the scenes in Lee Abbott's (John Krasinski) basement, you can see a variety of newspaper articles on the wall, with one headline proclaiming that "[A] meteor hits Mexico with the force of a nuke", potentially alluding to how the creatures got to Earth.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6644200/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Quiet_Place_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/p9wE8dyzEJE

A Quiet Place [2018]
Directed by John Krasinski

Title card: Day 89

...

Beau [signing]: Rocket.
Regan [looking down at the rocket ship he's drawn in chalk]: Well done!
Beau: This is how...we're going to escape this planet.

...

Lee [father signing to Beau about the toy rocket]: Too loud.

...

Marcus [mouthing to father]: I'm sorry!

...

Lee [signing]: Do not go down there!
Regan: Why not?
Lee: You know why.
Regan: I'm not a child! I won't make a sound!

...

Lee [signing]: Look. This time, I took small amplifiers from the stereo.
Regan: It. Won't. Work.
Lee: No, this should increase the frequency to...
Regan: It! Never! Works!

...

Lee [signing]: Time to go...
Marcus [to mother, frightened]: Please don't make me go!
Evelyn: You'll be fine. Your father will always protect you. Always....Listen to me. It's important that you learn these things. He just wants you to be able to take care of yourself...to take care of me when I'm old and grey.

...

Lee [signing]: There's nothing to be afraid of.
Marcus: Of course there is!

...

Marcus [signing to his father]: They'll hear you! They'll hear you!
Lee: Look at me. Listen. The river...is loud. Small sounds...safe. Big sounds...big sounds not safe.

...

Lee [at the waterfall]: Ohhhh!
[he speaks this time]
Lee [to Marcus]: You're alright. You're alright. I promise.
Marcus: Ohhhh!

...

Marcus [speaking]: Why didn't you let her come? Do you blame her for what happened to Beau?
Lee: No.
Marcus: Because she blames herself.
Lee: It's no one's fault...
Marcus: You still love her, right?
Lee: Of course I do.
Marcus: You should tell her.

...

Old man in the woods [shouting]: Ahhhh!!!

He's committing suicide after the creatures killed his wife.

Lee [signing to Marcus]: Rocket. I need you...to make a sound...that's louder. Your mother...needs your help. You. Can. Do this.

...

Evelyn [speaking in the sound proof basement of Beau]: I should have carried him. Who are we...if we can't protect them? Who are we? You have to protect them. Promise me that. You will protect them.

...

Lee [signing to Regan]: I. Love. You. I have always loved you.
[then he shouts drawing the creature towards him]
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Remember Hogan's Heroes? The American sitcom set in a Nazi prisoner of war camp. At the time it aired there were some who were really, really outraged. How dare they turn the Nazis into mere buffoons?!

A situation comedy about Hitler's thugs?

And no doubt there are any number of folks who might be offended by a film that turned Josef Stalin and his henchmen into a punch line.

Ah, but here the comedy is very, very black. It thumps Stalin and his ilk such that he and his at times brutally authoritarian regime become basically the butt of all the jokes.

This is, after all, a film based on a comic book. Or, rather, a "graphic novel". However one wants to interpret that.

Still, it also explores the enormously precarious and problematic reality -- the existential threat -- of living in a regime in which power is basically invested in one man. One man and all of his loyal [or not so loyal] cronies. And, yes, thugs. What happens when he dies? In this case "unexpectedly of a brain hemorrhage" in the middle of the night. Suddenly the power is up for grabs. And the lives of millions will depend on how the dust finally settles.

No one is really safe until then, right? Or, as often as not, not even after then.

Of course the problem with "political satires" of this sort is that you can never really be certain if what you are watching actually occured or was just thrown in there for laughs. You can only assume you get the gist of it. Given a particular political narrative of course.

Bottom line: Unless you are actually familiar with most of the historical facts here, this may just as well be gibberish.

Then the part where in watching the film you either do or do not connect the dots between what happened back then and what may well happen...here and now? Imagine Donald Trump [carte blanche] with a list of "enemies".

IMDb

Director Armando Iannucci insisted on not having the characters speak with Russian accents, for two reasons: he thought it would take audiences out of the film, and he did not want the actors to worry about their accent when improvising.

The movie was banned in Russia on January 23, 2018, two days before it was due to be released. The Cultural Ministry stated, "The distribution certificate for the film The Death of Stalin has been withdrawn." One member of the Culture Ministry's advisory board was quoted as saying, "The film desecrates our historical symbols -- the Soviet hymn, orders and medals, and Marshal Zhukov is portrayed as an idiot," and added that the film's release in advance of the 75th anniversary of the end of the Battle of Stalingrad (February 2nd), would be "an affront to Russia's World War II veterans."

In the scene where Stalin collapses from a stroke, one guard, having heard his collapse from outside, asks if they should investigate, with the other guard bluntly refusing by shooting back that he should shut up before they are both killed by Stalin for entering without permission. This was a reference to the fact that Stalin left explicit orders to not disturb him while he was sleeping under any circumstances, with the penalty of disobeying being the death penalty, which was one of the reasons why no one attempted to investigate when he did not wake up at his usual time.

trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4686844/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Stalin
trailer: https://youtu.be/ukJ5dMYx2no

The Death Of Stalin [2017]
Written in part and directed by Armando Iannucci

Title card: For 20 years, Stalin's NKVD security forces have imposed great terror. Those on Stalin's lists of "enemy" names are arrested, killed or shot.

...

Beria [head of security forces to soldiers of Stalin's list of enemies]: Shoot her before him, but make sure he sees it. Oh, and this one...um...kill him, take him to his church, dump him in the pulpit. And I'll leave the rest up to you.

...

Andreyev: Take your seats. Take your fucking seats. Don't worry, nobody's gonna get killed, I promise you. This is just a musical emergency.

...

Andreyev: Comrades...Comrades! I have wonderful news. Comrade Stalin loved tonight's concerto and would like a recording of it right away, which we don't have, for reasons that are myriad and complex and... But meanwhile the concerto we just played will be played again. And this time we will record it and we will applaud it.

Satirically [perhaps] what the "dictatorship of the proletariet" has been [or can be] reduced to.

Malenkov: Maria Veniaminovna, you have to play. I didn't... I didn't mean what I said.
Maria: So you said it, then? As God is my witness, I won't do it. The Lord will see me through.
Khrushchev: 10,000 rubles.
Maria: 20,000.
Khrushchev: Done. Let's go.

...

Molotov: Good night, comrades. Long live the Communist Party of Lenin-Stalin. Long live John Wayne and John Ford.
Malenkov: Goodbye, Molotov, old friend.
Beria: Goodbye forever....Yeah. On the list. It would be simpler and cheaper if they just drove straight into a river.

...

Guard [hearing Stalin's body thud to the floor]: Should we investigate?
Guard: Should you shut the fuck up before you get us both killed?

...

Beria [whispering to Stalin lying on his deathbed]: You have a nice long sleep, old man. I'll take it from here.

...

Official: No, Nicky. Nobody needs factionalism.
Khrushchev [pointing to Beria and Malenkov]: You want factionalism? What about those two, fucking Abbott and Costello over there?

...

Beria: Will he recover, yes or no?
Doctor: No.
Beria: No?
Doctor: No.
Beria: It's over. It's over!
Khrushchev: And so it begins. Oh, God! I cry for Stalin. I cry for all the people.

Tongue in cheek as it were.

Beria [on the phone]: I want Moscow cauterised, now. Cut off the city. NKVD to displace army officers at every station. Remove Molotov from that last list. Implement our lists.

...

...

Khrushchev: Svetlana, I wanted to let you know that no matter what happens, I will never ever let any harm come to you or your brother.
Svetlana: Who said anything about harm?
Khrushchev: No, that's what I'm saying.
Svetlana: You know somebody wants to harm us? Tell me. I demand to know. If someone...
Khrushchev: No. I should not have used the word "harm".
Sveltana: Yes. But you keep mentioning the word "harm". Why?
Khrushchev: If anyone tries to you, they'll have to get through me first.
Sveltana: My father's going to die and I'm going to have you to look after me?!

You know, if that's the way it actually happened.

Khrushchev: Listen, I wanted to invite you to tomorrow's Committee meeting.
Molotov: Meeting? What meeting? Why didn't I know about a meeting?
Khrushchev: Stalin and Beria put you on a list.
Molotov: Stalin? Oh, I must have wronged him so badly. What did I do?
Khrushchev: No, nothing. Don't you see? Beria, he wants you out. Now, I've been talking with Comrade Bulganin. I think he's right. We can outvote them.
Molotov: No, no. This is factionalism. Stalin didn't like factionalism.

...

Malenkov: These lists and these arrests. I think we...Should we take that down just a gear?
Beria: Or hold off altogether? Freeze them?
Beria: Freeze, yes. Excellent thought. Yes, we could freeze arrests. We could even release some low-level prisoners.
Malenkov: Fuck me. I mean... I mean, yes. But what would the old man...
Beria: Oh, Stalin...Stalin destroyed the status quo and he built a new one. The changes he made were both radical and popular.
Malenkov: Liberalisation would be radical. Popular.
Malenkov: And popular.

...

Malenkov: Please, understand that this is not some cynical ploy. I mean, these reforms are correct reforms.
Beria: Totally understood.

...

Field Marshal Zhukov [to Beria and Khrushchev]: Tell me something. Why has the army been replaced by the NKVD all over Moscow? I mean, I'm smiling, but I am very fucking furious.

The chaos ticks up a few notches. Cue "the Bishops".

Vasily [Stalin's son]: Foreigners. A vile crime has been perpetrated. Hairy monsters in coats have scooped out my father's brain and sent it to America. And these traitors, sucking the cocks and balls...sucking the cocks and balls of Zionist...New York... New York Zionist queers in petticoats. Look at them. You see? Those brain thieves!

...

Vasily: I want to make a speech at my father's funeral.
Khrushchev: And I want to fuck Grace Kelly.
Vasily: I simply don't care. I want to make a speech at my father's funeral.
Malenkov: Well, I think, um...it can be, um...no... no problem.
Khrushchev: Ah...Technically, yes, but practically...
Beria: ...there are programmatic complications.
Malenkov: You know, I think I misspoke when I said, "No problem." What I meant was, "No." "Problem."

...

Khrushchev: She was guilty. You found her guilty. And Stalin agreed. Nobody doubted. Nobody doubted.
Beria: Past tense, you see. In the good old days you pine for, that sort of dissonance would have had you both shot. Both of you.
Khrushchev: Oh, this is just fucking wordplay.
Beria: Oh, is it? Allegiance to the party line, hm? That was what Stalin demanded. Correct, Comrade Molotov? Um, allegiance to the party line? Yes. And defiance of the party line, that would mark you out as a traitor, wouldn't it?

...

Khrushchev: What game is this, Lavrenti?
Beria: Oh, don't be hysterical. We're in a new reality.
Khrushchev: What, you're the good guy now? You locked up half the nation. You beat them, you raped them, you killed them.
Beria: Yes, and now I'm releasing them. And you won't believe how many will be free.
Khrushchev: So now you want the public to love you, is that it? You're bending and cracking the truth like a human body.
Beria: The truth? This from the man who invited his bit-on-the-side whore pianist to play at the funeral, even though she swore to kill Stalin, who's now dead.
Khrushchev: Whoa. What the barrelling fuck are you talking about?
Beria: She wanted Stalin dead and she knows your family. She taught your niece to play, remember? I think you should read this. It's the copy of a note I found by Stalin's body, from the pianist. It's lucky we both now live in the new Soviet Union or you and your wife and your family would be a pile of dust on the floor of a crematorium toilet.

...

Khrushchev [holding up the note]: This is your work, is it?
Maria: Why? Are there spelling mistakes?
Khrushchev: Do you have any idea what kind of man Beria is?
Maria: He's releasing people from prison.
Khrushchev: That was my idea. I was going to do that. I'm the reformer. Me. I was going to release the bishops.
Maria: I thought you hated the Church.
Khrushchev: I do!

...

Khrushchev: We are tied together. Like a rock that's sinking.
Maria: I know. But I'm confident of everlasting life.
Khrushchev: Who the fuck in their right mind would want everlasting life? The endless conversation!

...

Khrushchev: What if we blame this on someone who's out of control.
Field Marshal Zhukov: Nicky, be very careful what you say next. Who?
Khrushchev: Beria.
Field Marshal Zhukov [tongue in cheek]: I'm gonna have to report this conversation. Threatening to do harm or obstruct any member of the Presidium in the process of...Look at your fucking face. Nikita Khrushchev. You have balls like Kremlin domes.
Khrushchev: Stop. Be serious. Are you in?
Field Marshal Zhukov: I'm in, I'm in. That fucker thinks he can take on the Red Army. I fucked Germany. I think I can take a flesh lump in a fucking waistcoat.

It almost always comes down to that: Who has the support of the military? Cue the backstabbing.

Beria: It's time all of you realised who kept the daggers out of your backs. Show some fucking respect. I... I've got... I've got... I've got documents. I have documents on all of you....All of you! All of you! I have documents on all of you! I've seen what you've done. I know the truth. It's all written down. It's all written down on a very...on a very fucking long list!

...

Khrushchev: No, Beria said "all of you".
Malenkov: You know, all of you can kiss my Russian ass. All of you.

...

Beria: Right, many terrible things were done in the service of the Union. Evidence was fabricated. Those who are responsible will be found...
Svetlana: And what will you do to them? Question them to death?

...

Beria: You know what I'm doing? I'm offering you and that bloated soak brother of yours my protection...And I warn you, stick by my side or you will both be beaten inside out and strung up for the crows by the others.
Svetlana: Why should I trust you?
Beria: Because I'm the only one who's telling you: Trust no-one.

...

Khrushchev: Action is gonna be taken at the meeting.
Malenkov: Action? What action? Is this why everyone is treating me like they wanna fuck my sister?
Khrushchev: Zhukov has everybody on board against Beria. When I heard that, I agreed too.
Malenkov: Yes, yes. But Zhukov... is not governing the Soviet Union. I am governing the Soviet Union.

...

Khrushchev: Georgy, Georgy! Georgy, press the button underneath the desk. Press the button, Georgy.
Malenkov: What button?!

...

Khrushchev: If you want to talk to General Zhukov, now's your opportunity.
Field Marshal Zhukov: Spit it out, Georgy. Staging a coup here.
Malenkov: He's got a knife by his ankle.
Beria: You're a disgrace.
Malenkov: Give his head a good kicking.

...

Khrushchev: Georgy, you have to sign this now.
Malenkov: No. No. No. He deserves a fair trial. He's one of us.
Khrushchev: What about Tukhachevsky and Piatakov? Did they get a trial? What about Sokolnikov? Who begged him to look after his elderly mother. And what did this monster do? He strangled her in front of him. It's too late. The only choice we have is between his death or his revenge. And you will fucking sign this.
Malenkov: I want it to go on record: this was not my first course of action.
Molotov: Stalin would be loving this.

...

Khrushchev: "You are accused of using your position as Minister of the Interior to plot against the Soviet Union with the goal of forwarding the interests of foreign powers."
Beria: Foreign powers? Which one, the fucking moon?!
Khrushchev: "You are also accused of 347 counts of rape, of sexual deviancy and bourgeois immorality and acts of perversion with children as young as seven years old. Exotic for old Beria! Seven years old!
Beria: You are the rapists!
Khrushchev: "Petra Nikova, aged 13. Nadia Ranova, aged 12. Magya Holovic, aged seven. You are accused of treason and anti-Soviet behaviour. The court finds you guilty and sentences you to be shot."

...

Field Marshal Zhukov [after Beria is shot in the head]: Well, that's got it done.

...

Khrushchev [to Beria's burning corpse]: I will bury you in history. You hear me, you fat fucker?!

Again, did any of this actually happen in any way that resembles this? You tell me.

Svetlana: That's how you deal with a problem, isn't it?
Khrushchev: I'm sorry you had to be here.
Svetlana: I hope you didn't tell Beria that he was going to be safe from harm.
Khrushchev: You will be safe, okay? Vasily, too. If you listen to me.
Svetlana: Why wouldn't we be safe? What are you talking about?
Khrushchev: Just be quiet now.
Svetlana: I refuse to be quiet every time...
Khrushchev: Just shut up!

...

Khrushchev: Vasily stays here in Russia where we can take care of him. Read it.
Svetlana: Vienna? If I stayed, I could contain Vasily.
Khrushchev: No. No. No, you go to Vienna. He stays. We can't have a drunken madman spreading conspiracy theories all over the world.
Svetlana: He's not...He's not bad. He's just ill.
Khrushchev: Listen to me. No. No. You understand what's going on? This is how people get killed, when their stories don't fit. Safe travels.
Svetlana: I just never thought it would be you

...

Title card: After Beria's execution in 1953, the Central Committee took control of the Soviet Union. In 1956 Khrushchev moved to demote other members of the party, including Molotov and Malenkov. At long last, he became Head of the Soviet Government and Commander In Chief. Until his removal in 1964 by Leonid Brezhnev.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

He comes from an exceptionally brutal past. And he lives now in an exceptionally brutal present. It's simple: Violence has always been a part of his life. He's "grizzled". He's a "traumatized Gulf War vet". And, thus, suicide, among other things, is always just right around the corner as a possible option.

Still, there are lots of movies in or around the vicintiy of this, right?

Cue "the context".

Joe [and his ball peen hammer] is a man that others hire to track down their "missing girls". And now we're in the midst of his latest descent into an increasingly ghastly and gruesome postmodern hell-hole world. Indeed, it says a lot about the human condition these days that most some of us can imagine the events unfolding on the screen "really happening". Sure, it will be amped up "for the movies", but there it is: the bloated underbelly of our "late-capitalism" beast.

And here violence is not just a tool. It is something that one can revel in. If only as a way in which to exorcise "the demons". Or to avenge all of the terrible wrongs that were done to you at a time when you were either unable or unwilling to set things right.

The irony then being that here there is very little actual "blood and gore" to be found. The horror is instead embedded more in the "psychology of terror".

Think Taxi Driver for a new generation. Joe is always in and out of a fever dream. What's actually real and what's not? And how far removed can he really be from insanity itself?

One of those films in which the suspense revolves more around not really knowing what the hell is going to happen next. And around suspecting that not everything is as it seems.

Bottom line [one of them]: There are wealthy and powerful men in this world and sex is practically all they ever seem to think about. And some of them think about it with it young girls.

What then is to be done?

Also: How to explain what it "means":
https://youtu.be/f81km5UM93I
https://youtu.be/bBuGGuPnp9o

IMDb

According to Rolling Stone, Joaquin Phoenix has stated that Lynne Ramsay gave him an audio file of fireworks mixed with gunshots to suggest what's going on in Joe's head.

Very little actual violence is shown in the movie, but more often the aftermath of violent scenes. Lynne Ramsay stated that before this movie she had never done anything with a gun, so she had to figure out how to approach violence. Budget constraints didn't allow her to shoot complex action scenes, so this gave birth to the idea to show "post rage aftermath scenes" instead of the violence itself. Lynne Ramsay confessed she thought it was very risky to use this approach, because if it didn't work she wasn't able to go back and reshoot the scenes.

Received a seven-minute standing ovation at its Cannes Film Festival premiere, on May 27, 2017. Lynne Ramsay won the award for Best Screenplay and Joaquin Phoenix won for Best Actor.

Trivia at IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5742374/tr ... tt_trv_trv
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Were_ ... eally_Here
trailer: https://youtu.be/R8oYYg75Qvg

You Were Never Really Here [2017]
Written in part and directed by Lynne Ramsay

Joe Sr.: Stand up straight. Stand up straight. Stand up. Only fucking pussy little girls slouch. You must do better. You must do better! Say it.
Joe Jr: I must do better, sir.

...

Joe [on a pay phone]: It's done.

...

Joe: Did your son tell you that he saw me?
Angel: Hey, he was with a friend, you know. It's just...just a coincidence, man.
Joe: Did he tell you where he saw me?
Angel: No. No, I...I know you wouldn't want me to know, man. Moises didn't mean to see you, Joe. He...He's just a stupid freaking kid.
Joe: I know, but...
Angel: He...
Joe: We're done, Angel.

...

Joe: Why am I here?
John: State Senator Albert Votto.

...

Albert [the state senator]: You have kids, Joe?
Joe: No.
Albert: Nina. Her name is Nina. I've heard of these places...underage girls.
Joe: Senator, if she's there, I'll get her.
Albert: McCleary said you were brutal.
Joe: I can be.
Albert: I want you to hurt them.

...

Joe: Where's the playground?
Scott: Playground?
Joe: The underage girls?
Scott: Third floor.

...

Joe [to Nina]: Close your eyes.

...

Nina [in a fog]: 49, 48, 47...46, 45, 44...43, 42...41, 40...

...

Joe [to Nina]: No, no, no. No. You don't have to do that.

Cue the surreal plot twist...

Reporter [on TV]: 27-year-old passer-by Rebecca Couran saw the body fall in front of the hotel.
Rebecca: "He just stood there for a second and then he stepped off."
Reporter: Senator Votto's body was discovered beneath the Tower Hotel in mid-town Manhattan, after he apparently leapt from a suite on the 22nd floor. Senator Votto was in the city campaigning for Governor Williams in next month's gubernatorial elections.

...

Nina: Joe!

...

Joe [to an agent]: Man...you think I don't know what the fuck's going on here? I'm just a hired gun. I don't give a shit about the girl...

...

Joe [on phone]: John, pick up the fucking phone, man. They fucking shot me, man. They shot me in the face!

...

Joe [to an agent he had just shot]: Who killed my mother? Was it you or the other guy? Where are you going? You don't know? Who are you? You're in my fucking house!!

...

Joe: So you killed Votto? They killed Votto, is that what it is?
Agent: Votto wanted out.
Joe: Out of what?
Agent: All of it.
Joe: Where is she? Where is Nina now?
Agent: Williams.
Joer: Governor Williams?
Agent: She's his favorite. He trades them.

...

Joe: Was my mother afraid?
Agent: She was sleeping.

...

Joe/Nina [voiceover]: 40, 39, 38, 37, 36, 35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27, 26, 25, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16...Nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three...

...

Nina: It's okay, Joe. It's okay.

...

Nina: Where are we going?
Joe: Well...We can go wherever you want. Where do you want to go?
Nina: I, I don't know.
Joe: I don't know either.

...

Nina: Hey. Joe? Wake up.
Joe: What?
Nina: Let's go. It's a beautiful day.
Joe: It is a beautiful day.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

For most of us, revenge is a dish best served vicariously. In other words, while we are either unable or unwilling to exact retribution on those perceived to have done harm to us, there is always the next movie down the pike in which we can root fiercely for the protagonist to exact his or her own revenge in the comfort of our recliners.

Also, we know that some acts warrant revenge more than others. Here a woman is raped, brutalized and left for dead out in the desert. And the men that do it are "wealthy, middle-aged CEOs". Married with kids. Trust me: The audience will be rooting for payback here on steroids.

Or, surely, most of them.

After all, in a No God world, it's either that or the law. And the law is construed by some to be too good for monsters of this sort. So, you'll have to make up your own mind as to whether or not hunting them down and killing them yourself is "the right thing to do".

And then this part:

Besides being about revenge, there are also mystical themes throughout the film, like rebirth and transformation. This is illustrated when at the beginning she gets pushed off of the cliff and lands impaled on the tree in a Christ-like pose and then uses a lighter to ignite fire underneath the tree and have the trunk burn off and break off to free herself--this is exactly like the phoenix that ignites itself and then rises from its own ashes to be reborn. IMDb

There are in fact a number of things in this film that seem to transcend reality. So, for some, it's not so much a matter of "could this really happen?" as it is "let it happen anyway in order to enhance the satisfaction that revenge provides."

Again, if only vicariously.

IMDb

The film features so much blood that, according to director Coralie Fargeat, the prop team would often run out of fake blood.

Jen, the protagonist, has no further speaking lines after the 26 minute mark of the film.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/g9w0c9Chk0Q

Revenge [2017]
Written and directed by Coralie Fargeat

Richard [to Jen]: You drive me completely crazy.

...

Richard [to Jen about his marriage]: Everything would be so simple if the kids weren't there...and if you didn't have such a nice ass. Where is that little peachy ass. It's like a little alien coming from another planet.

Then: Cue Stan and Dimitri.

Dimitri [to Richard]: Elizabeth and the kids okay?

...

Dimitri [looking at a samll bag of peyote]: What the fuck is that?
Richard: Fuck. Leave it.
Jen: What is it?
Richard: Peyote. A local, highly powerful hallunicogenic. This shit could flatten a football team.

...

Richard [as Stan and Dimitri toss the bag back and forth]: Hey! This, plus weapons, is a guareenteed accident, you fucking morons. A few years ago a Polish guy got so high on this shit, he sawed his own leg off without feeling a damn thing. He died without a drop of blood in his body.

...

Richard [to Jen giving her the peyote]: Here, beautiful, go and hide this somewhere.

...

Stan: Richard went to give our passports to the gatekeeper. It'll take him all morning. And Dimitri is nursing a hangover...which will also take all morning. So. It's just the two of us...

Cue the tense music.

Stan: What is it you don't like about me?
Jen: No. Nothing.
Stan: I just want to know. So, tell me. What is it you don't like about me?
Jen: You're...you're not my type, that's all.
Stan: Oh. Why am I not your type?
Jen [after a pause]: You're...you're too small. I just like taller guys.
Stan: Oh, and I haven't changed height since yesterday have I?
[Jen says nothing]
Stan: I asked you a simple question. Even for your tiny little oyster brain, it shouldn't be too difficult to understand. So I'll ask you again. Did my height change since yesterday?
Jen: No.
Stan: And yet you seemed to like me yesterday. When we were damcing everything was very clear. You came onto me like a pussy in heat, rubbing yourself agains me, turning me on. And now suddenly, I'm not your type. Like that, boom. During the night I've become too small for you?

...

Stan [after Richard returns]: Listen, there's been a slight problem with Jen.

...

Jen [sobbing]: Call the helicopter.
Richard: Hey, calm down. Calm down.
Jen: Call the helicopter, I want to go home.
Richard: I'll take care of everything, don't worry, okay?

...

Richard [shouting at Stan in the background]: Are you nuts?! I left you for two hours!! Where are your brains?!!!

...

Jen: I want to go home right now. Call that fucking helicopter!
Richard: Baby, baby, baby...don't act like a child. You know that's not possible...

...

Richard: Okay, they fucked up big time. But you're so damn beautiful, it's hard to resist you. Come on, they'll come and apologise, and we'll forget about the whole thing.
Jen: You call the goddamn helicopter or I'll call your wife and tell her everything!!

Clearly the wrong thing to say.

Richard [after slapping her to the floor]: Who the fuck do you think you are? You little whore. Yoy dare to threaten me or fuck things up in my life? Don't you ever talk about my wife. Don't you ever even say her name.

...

Stan [after Richard pushes Jen over the cliff edge]: Why did you do that? Fuck!
Richard: She could have put us all in jail for 15 years. Now do as I tell you. We go hunting as planned. We clean up this fuck up on the way. Then we bring home our trophies like every year. We do nothing to arouse suspicion. And everything will be okay. Understood?

...

Richard [on the phone with his wife]: Hi, darling, are you busy? No, I just wanted to hear your voice....I can't wait to see you all. I love you.

...

Stan: I just wanted to tell you that I am sorry about Jen
Richard: Never heard of her.

...

Stan: Shit someone must have taken her!
Richard: If she didn't die straightaway, she's dying somewhere.
Stan: Maybe it's not too late. We can say it was an accident, take her to the hospital. We'll get lawyers. They'll think of something. They always do.
Richard [grabbing him at the throat]: We call no one. We say nothing. What's your problem? She's alone, her guts hanging out. There are three of us and we're armed.

...

Stan: When you're lost in a forest, they always tell you not to split up. They tell you to stay together.
Richard [after a long pause]: Are we lost in a forest? Are we lost...in a fucking forest?

...

Richard [on the phone]: Hello, Roberto. It's Richard. I'm calling because we've had a change of plans.

...

Richard: You thought you could win against me? That was only possible when I offered you a way to leave without putting up a fight. But you had to put up a fight. Women always have to put up a fucking fight.

Cue the Shop USA channel on the tube blaring. The perfect fucking contrast.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Here we go again: a crisis of faith.

A crisis of faith from a man of the cloth.

And, like most of them, they revolve around an actual set of circumstances. One in which your faith is tested by being yanked in conflicting directions. Troubling and distressing things can happen to us or to those around us. How then does one reconcile a loving, just and merciful God with the wrenching vicissitudes that one can experience out in the at times horrific world of mere mortals?

Or, rather, somewhere in that vicinity.

On the other hand, the circumstances here are basically the stuff of movies. They include the politics of religion embedded in the Catholic/Protestant chasm, radical environmentalism, abortion, tangled personalities, unrequited love, cancer.

Also, reconciling one's Christian faith with capitalism.

And then the part where a crisis of faith can begin to play havoc with your moral compass. Without God around to point you in the right direction how do you determine what the right direction is? Your options skyrocket. But there is considerably less down here or up there to ground them in.

So on and on and on the protagonists go attempting to pin down the least dysfunctional reaction to a world in which God may or may not exist. The "action" here revolves around discussion and debate. Around arguments being exchanged about a set of circumstances you may or may not be able to empathize with.

But that's not really a problem though because most of us [sooner or later] will become entangled in one of our own.

Hope and despair. With God. Without God.

As for the ending, you tell me. There's the one that we see and there's the one that Toller had intended.

IMDb

Paul Schrader stated in an interview this film would be different from what he has ever done, calling it a film more in the vein of Ingmar Bergman, Robert Bresson and Andrei Tarkovsky.

Paul Schrader stated in a Q&A at Rotterdam Film Festival 2018 that he was surprised while editing the film to notice how many similarities there were with Taxi Driver, a film he also wrote.

The film's name was inspired by the director's own religious background in what is known as Calvinism, the second expression of Protestant Christianity to spring out of the Protestant Reformation. The first being Lutheranism. John Calvin and his followers believed that Martin Luther had not taken his reformation far enough and sought to install doctrines that further distances themselves from Roman Catholicism.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Reformed
trailer: https://youtu.be/hCF5Y8dQpR4

First Reformed [2017]
Written and directed by by Paul Schrader

Toller [voiceover]: I have decided to keep a journal. Not in a word program or digital file, but in longhand, writing every word out so that every inflection of penmanship, every word chosen, scratched out, revised, is recorded. To set down all my thoughts and the simple events of my day factually and without hiding anything. When writing about oneself, one should show no mercy. I will keep this diary for one year, 12 months. And at the end of that time, it will be destroyed. Shredded, then burnt. The experiment will be over. These thoughts and recollections are not so different from those I confide to God every morning. When it is possible. When he is listening.

...

Mary [to Toller]: My husband...he thinks it's wrong to bring a child into this world. He wants to kill our baby.

...

Michael [Mary's husband]: Hey, you know what the world will be like in 2050?
Toller: Hmm. Hard to imagine.
Michael: Yeah, you think? I mean, Reverend... Uh, the world is changing so fast. And right in front of us. I mean, one third of the natural world has been destroyed in your lifetime. You know, the earth's temperature will be three degrees centigrade higher. Four is the threshold. You know? "Severe, widespread, and irreversible impacts." And when scientists say stuff like that, you know? And National Center for Atmospheric Research, Lawrence Livermore, the Potsdam Institute. Uh, Reverend...
Toller [voiceover]: He went on like that for some time. By 2050, sea levels two feet higher on the East Coast. Low lying areas underwater across the world. Bangladesh, 20% loss of landmass. Central Africa, 50% reduction in crops due to drought. The Western reservoirs dried up. Climate change refugees. Epidemics. Extreme weather.
Michael: You know, the...the bad times, they will begin. And from that point, everything moves very quickly. You know, this social structure can't bear the stress of multiple crises. Opportunistic diseases, anarchy, martial law, the tipping point. And this isn't in some, like, distant future. You will live to see this. You know, my children will experience this unliveability.

...

Toller: There's something growing inside Mary. Something as alive as a tree, surely. As an endangered species. Something full of the beauty and mystery of nature. You said sanction? You think Mary should have an abortion? This birth, is that your right? Is that your decision? Have you asked Mary what she thinks? Look, this...this isn't...it's not about your baby. It's not about Mary. It's about you and your despair. Your lack of hope. Look, people have, throughout history, have woken up in the dead of the night, confronted by blackness. The sense that our lives are without meaning. The Sickness Unto Death.
Michael: Yeah, but this is something different.
Toller: Yeah, no. Man's great achievements have brought him to the place where life as we know it may cease in the foreseeable future. Yes, that's new. But the blackness that's not. We are scientific people. We want to solve things. We want rational answers. Right? And if... If humankind can't overcome its immediate interests enough to ensure its own survival, then you're right. The only rational response is despair.

...

Toller: You said you respected me. What I...what I've been through.
Michael: Yes.
Toller: So, you know my story.
Michael: Yeah, you were a chaplain.
Michael: Uh-huh. My father taught at VMI. I encouraged my son to enlist. It was the family tradition. Uh, like his father, my father before me. A patriotic tradition. My wife, uh, was very opposed. My son enlisted anyway. And, uh... Six months later he was dead in Iraq. Right? I talked my son into a war that had no moral justification. My wife could no longer live with me. I left the military. I was lost. And Reverend Jeffers from Abundant Life, he gave me this position at First Reformed and here I am. Now Michael, I can promise you that whatever despair you feel about bringing a child into this world cannot equal the despair of taking a child from it.

...

Toller [to Michael]: Courage is the solution to despair. Reason provides no answers. I can't know what the future will bring. We have to choose despite uncertainty. Wisdom is holding two contradictory truths in our mind, simultaneously. Hope and despair. A life without despair is a life without hope. Holding these two ideas in our head is life itself.

...

Michael: Can God forgive us? For what we've, uh, done to this world?
Toller: I don't know. Who can know the mind of God? But we can choose a righteous life. Belief...Forgiveness...Grace covers us all. I believe that.

...

Toller [voiceover]: I went over everything that was said, what should have been said, what could have been said differently, what could have been said better. "I know that nothing can change "and I know there is no hope." Thomas Merton wrote this. Despair is a development of pride so great that it chooses one's certitude rather than admit God is more creative than we are. Perhaps it's better I didn't say that to him.

...

Esther: How was Jeffers?
Toller: Oh. He wants me to meet Ed Balq. Balq Industries, Balq Energy, Balq Paper, Balq Peanuts...
Esther: Why?
Toller: Well, it's all about the Reconsecration. And apparently Mr. Balq wants to make sure he gets proper credit for underwriting the whole thing.
Esther: Well, he should. First Reformed would be a parking lot if it wasn't for him.

...

Toller [voiceover]: Some are called for their gregariousness, some are called for their suffering. Others are called for their loneliness. They are called by God, because through the vessel of communication they can reach out, and hold beating hearts in their hands. They are called because of their all-consuming knowledge of the emptiness of all things that can only be filled by the presence of Our Savior.

...

Mary [on phone]: You must come over. Now.
Toller: Is Michael there?
Mary: No. He's at work.
Mary: You must come over. Now.
Toller: Okay. Okay.

...

Toller: Explosives?
Mary: It's a suicide vest.

...

Toller: Michael was troubled, but his cause was just. There's no reason to bring disrepute on that cause. Are you an activist as well?
Mary: I share Michael's beliefs. But not his despair. I mean, I wanna live.

...

Toller [voiceover reacting to Michael's suicide]: Terrible night. No sooner than I shut my eyes, desolation came upon me. What is one's last thought as you pull the trigger? "There goes my head." Or, "Jesus, watch over me?" Or neither? I'm going to tear these pages out. This journal brings me no peace. It's self-pity. Nothing more.

...

Toller [voicover]: How easily they talk about prayer, those who have never really prayed.

...

Cynthia [at a church group meeting]: Three months ago, my father got laid off. He can't find any work. Nobody loves the Lord more than my father. He is always testifying, he volunteers. Did he do something wrong?
Toller: Well, Cynthia. I'm sorry that happened to your father. There's a lot of church people, good Christians, who see, uh, a connection between godliness and prosperity. But that's not what Jesus teaches. That's not what Jesus lived. There's no dollar sign on His pulpit. There's no American flag either. I think, Cynthia, what your father is experiencing is...
Jake [interjecting]: Christians shouldn't succeed. That's what he means. Christianity is for losers? I just get tired of turn the other cheek. Jesus didn't turn the other cheek. Why stand for anything? Take prayer out of the schools. Give money to people too lazy to work for it. And whatever you do, don't offend the Muslims.

...

Toller: I mean, no sooner do I mention the poor, and this teenager jumps down my throat like I just took a shit on the American flag. Forgive my language.
Jeffers: Oh, God! Roger told me. He said you kept your cool, and he admired you for that.
Toller: There's just no middle ground with these kids. Everything is so extreme.
Jeffers: It's the times. These are frightening times. These...These kids, they grow up in a world that, you and I, we wouldn't even recognize. Global warming, a sea of pornography, hyper violent video games. It's a world without privacy. Each kid isolated, communicating on media. It's a world without hope!

...

Toller: May I ask a question?
Toller: Will God forgive us? Will God forgive us for what we're doing to his creation? That's what Mensana asked me when I visited him.
Balq: This... There's been a lot of loose talk about environmental change.
Toller: There is scientific consensus. Ninety-seven percent...
[Toller in voiceover: The man who says nothing always seems more intelligent. Why couldn't I just keep silent?]
Balq: It's a complicated subject.
Toller: Not really. I mean, who benefits? Cui bono? Who profits? That's what I keep asking myself. Besides the Biblical call to stewardship, who profits when we soil our own nest? What's to be gained...
Balq [angrily]: Can we just agree to keep politics out of the reconsecration service?
Jeffers: Yes.
Toller: Yes, but this isn't politics. I mean, what God wants is for...
Balq: Oh, you, you, you, you...You know the mind of God? You spoke to him, personally? He told you His plans for Earth

...

Balq: So you counseled him, Reverend?
Toller: Yes. You counseled him, then he shot himself?
Jeffers: Ed?
Toller: Yes.
Balq: Well, I think you need to step back, Reverend, and take a look at your own life before you criticize others. Hmm?

...

Toller: I have a question for you, if, uh...If it's not too painful. Do you think he, uh...He really would have harmed someone?
Mary: Um, he'd been a part of some non-violent protests. We both had. He'd been put in jail. He had a temper. I mean, he'd start yelling at police, but no, I don't think he was...No. I don't think he was violent.
Toller: I just, um...I can't help but keep wondering what I should have done differently.
Mary: He didn't want to live. He was not a religious man, you know...I was the spiritual one.

...

Toller [voiceover]: I have removed the previous pages. They were written in a delirium. But I am determined to continue. It's hard to struggle against torpor.

...

Toller [to a group of children]: You see, there used to be a pew over this. And they would move it, and then they would lift this up. Slaves would hide in here. Sometimes whole families. Can you imagine that? In the dark. The air hot, shaking with fear. The sound of the slave hunter's horses outside. On their knees, holding each other's hands, praying for God to save them?

...

Mary: I think I'm gonna go to the, uh, Reconsecration.
Toller: Oh. No, you... You don't need to do that.
Mary: But, I... I want to.
Toller: Yeah, but it's not necessary. It's very nice of you to offer, um, but it's just a bunch of rich guys patting each other on the back.
Mary: But you're gonna be there.
Toller: But I have to be there.
Mary: So I'm gonna go.
Toller: Please don't come. Okay? I don't want you to come. You understand?
Mary: Okay.

We know what that means.

Toller [voiceover]: "Be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world."

...

Toller [voiceover]: I have found another form of prayer.

...

Jeffers [to Toller]: You're always in the Garden. Even Jesus wasn't always in the Garden, on his knees, sweating blood. He was on the Mount. He was in the marketplace. He was in the temple. But you, you're always in the Garden. For you every hour is the Darkest Hour.

...

Jeffers: Jesus doesn't want our suffering. He suffered for us. He wants our commitment and our obedience.
Toller: And what of His creation? The Heavens declare the glory of God. God is present everywhere, in every plant, every river, every tiny insect. The whole world is a manifestation of His Holy presence. I think this is an issue where...where the church can lead. But...but they say nothing. The U.S. Congress still denies climate change? Where were we when these people were elected? The, the, the...we know who spoke for big business. Right? But who spoke for God?

...

Jeffers: "The creation waits in eager expectation of liberation from bondage." That's Romans 8:23. You understand?
Toller: So, we should pollute so God can restore? We should sin so God can forgive? I don't think that's what the Apostle meant. I think we're supposed to look with the eyes of Jesus into every living...
Jeffers: You don't live in the real world.
Tollers: I don't?
Jeffers: You, you are a minister at a tourist church that no one attends. Do you have any idea what it takes to do God's work?
Toller: I'm trying to...
Jeffers: To, to maintain a mission of this size? The staffing, the outreach, the amount of people that we touch each day. Who's that priest that you like so much?
Toller: Thomas Merton?
Jeffers: Thomas Merton. He didn't live in the real world either!
Toller: Yes, he did! He would...
Jeffers: No. He was a monk who lived in a monastery in Kentucky and wrote books!

...

Toller: Somebody has to do something! It's the Earth that hangs in the balance.
Jeffers: Well what if this is His plan? What if we just can't see it?
Toller: You think God wants to destroy his creation?
Jeffers: He did once. For 40 days and 40 nights.

Toller says nothing. After all, what can he say?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Way back in time I was watching a film [Birdy as I recall] with some friends. There was a scene with a horse being taken to a rendering plant. The daughter of one friend was watching the film with us when she realized what was going to happen to the horse.

She became hysterical. I mean, really, really upset. And every attempt on our part to calm her down -- "It's only a movie, Honey" -- didn't work because she somehow knew that this sort of thing actually did happen.

People and animals. There's just no telling how any particular one of us will react to whatever it is that is going to happen to any particular one of them. But there are any number of us who for whatever reason have not been able to make any long-lasting connections with those of our own species. Here, Charley's mother abandoned him and his father died. Then a particular animal comes along and a connection is made that quickly becomes the center of the universe.

Here, it's a horse. Lean On Pete. A horse that is now "bound for slaughter". But not if Charley can help it.

Charley, you see, is a kid. But getting closer and closer to the real world of adults. And in this real world, Pete is basically just a commodity. Once he was a race horse. But just barely. Now he's been "run to the ground". Time to ship him off to the folks down in Mexico who can make some money off him too. But only when he's dead.

And this isn't exactly the Kentucky Derby here; it's the "fair circuit".

Just one more facet of capitalism that the idealistic [or naive] among us either learn to live with or [scripted] do something about.

More or less successfully.

And even though the film is called Lean On Pete, it's not really about the horse at all. It's about Charley.

IMDb

Chloë Sevigny revealed that she was originally approached to play Charley's aunt, but her agent fought for her to play Bonnie because the latter character is a larger role with "more [for Sevigny] to sink her teeth into."

Director Andrew Haigh has referred to Steve Buscemi and Chloë Sevigny as "the king and queen of American independent cinema," respectively.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_on_Pete
trailer: https://youtu.be/nzlazAyylw8

Lean On Pete [2017]
Written in part and directed by Andrew Haigh

Del: Ah, you motherfucking, cock-sucking fuck! Hey, what are you doing?
Charley: Me?
Del: Yeah, there's no one else here.
Charley: I was just running.
Del: Are you strong?
Charley: I don't know.
Del: Come here.

Charley meets Del.

Charley: How many horses live in here?
Del: Well, when the races start, there could be up to 50 in a row, and there's about 25 rows, so it's over 1,000 horses.
Charley: How many of them are yours?
Del: Shit, I used to have 20 or so. Now I got about six. All right, this is Tumbling Through. Be careful. He's a biter, all right? If he goes for you, just smack him on the nose, he'll quit.

...

Del: Don't wrap the rope around your hand! That's a good fucking way to lose your hand. Here, let's switch. This one's a pussy.
Charley: What's this one's name?
Del: Lean On Pete.

...

Del: You know what a quarter horse is?
Charley: No.
Del: Quarter horse is a breed. In racing, they're sprinters, anything from 100 to 400 yards. The tracks don't give a shit about quarter horses any more. Maybe Los Alamitos, but...you won't see me again in California.
Charley: Why not?
[Del gives him a look but says nothing]

...

Charley: Where's Tumbling Through? Did he win?
Del: He bowed a tendon so I sold him. I got enough fucked-up horses as it is.
Charley: Who did you sell him to?
Del: He's going to Mexico.
Charley: Is he in a lot of pain?
Del: It's not my problem any more.

...

Charley [watching Del put something in Lean On Pete's mouth]: What is that stuff?
Del: It's just vitamins.
Charley: What kind of vitamins?
Charley: What did I tell you about too many questions?

...

Del: Is this your first race?
Charley: Yeah.
Del: Don't blink. It's over in, like, two seconds.

...

Del: This is Charley.
Bonnie: Charley, I'm Bonnie.
Charley: Are you a jockey?
Del: No, she's too fat to be a real jockey.
Bonnie: I just lost seven pounds. I'm down to 122.
Del: Yeah?
Bonnie: I swear to God, get a fucking scale right now.

...

Charley: Is it hard being a girl jockey?
Bonnie: It isn't easy, that's for sure.
Charley: Did you ever get hurt? Yeah, once at a race in Union, which is way out in eastern Oregon. I was in the gate, this horse reared up, flipped over backwards, and I couldn't get out. He landed on me.
Charley: What happened?
Bonnie: Broke my pelvis, punctured a lung. My mom was there. She saw me on the ground, screaming out in pain. All she said was, "You're not too hurt to run in the seventh, are you?" Got a job at the Red Lobster after that.

...

Charley: I heard someone down by the track saying that Del runs his horses into the ground. You think he'll do that with Pete?
Bonnie: Well, it's true. If Del's broke, he'll run his horses every two weeks. Sometimes even once a week.
Charley: And is he broke?
Bonnie: He's broke a lot more than he used to be.

...

Bonnie: Don't worry about Pete. He's a quarter horse, so he's got that going for him. And he's probably been laid up for a while. Listen, you can't get attached to the horse.
Charley: Why not?
Bonnie: 'Cause you can't think of them as pets. They're here to race and nothing else. If they lose too much, they get fired. Just the way it is.

...

Bonnie [after Lean On Pete wins a race]: They test the winner for drugs.
Charley: Did Del give him something? Is that why he ran fast?
Bonnie: No. Keep your voice down.
Charley: What did you tell him you got rid of?
Bonnie: A buzzer.
Charley: What's that?
Bonnie: Don't worry, they won't find it.
Charley: Yeah, but what is that?
Bonnie: Just gives the horse a little shock.
Charley: What kind of shock?

...

Del: So what do you think about all this, Charley?
Charley: What do you mean?
Del: You know, working the backside...surrounded by horse shit. Being here in the asshole of nowhere.
Charley: I like working the horses. And we need the money, so...
Del: Hey, you should do something else...before there's nothing else you can do. Shit, I used to like horses too, you know. Now sometimes I feel like I wanna punch myself in the face if I ever see a horse again.

...

Bonnie: Looks like he's walking on nails to me. You don't think he's navicular, do you?
Del: I don't know. I don't think so. We'll see how he goes down at Grants Pass.
Bonnie: You think he'll be rested enough by then?
Del: He's gonna have to be. I'm not wasting my good horses down there. Tell you one thing, if I had a gun, I'd probably shoot him right now.
Charley: But he just won. And you raced him too hard.
Del: Listen, kid, things are changing. The race meet starts soon and we're gonna have a lot to do, so we can't fuck around, you got that?

...

Bonnie [after Del leaves]: Like I said, Charley, he's not a pet. He's just a horse.

...

Charley: If Lean On Pete doesn't win, then he's not gonna get claimed. And if he doesn't get claimed, then he's gonna go down to Mexico. Isn't he?
Bonnie: Charley...
Charley: They don't slaughter horses here, but I know they do down there. I'm right, aren't I? If his feet are fucked, then they're fucked. So they're just gonna kill him... just 'cause his feet are fucked?
Bonnie: Like I said before, if a racehorse isn't fast, then he's no good as a racehorse. This is the end of the line. There's no lower tracks. It's just the way it is.

...

Del: Hook up the small trailer, we gotta load Pete in tonight.
Charley: Where's he going?
Del: I'm selling him.
Del [chuckling]: With what money? And where are you gonna keep him? Not in my stalls.
Charley: I don't want him going to Mexico. He's a good horse.
Del: Oh. Go get the fucking truck. What the fuck are you waiting for? Now!

...

Charley [to Pete]: Just gotta keep going. This isn't our home, Pete, come on. This isn't our home. Gotta keep going. Come on. Come on. Come on.

...

Charley [out loud to Pete but really more to himself]: I used to have a picture of my mom. But I threw it away one night when I was mad. Her name was Nancy and she had real black hair and she was real tall. When I was born, I stayed with her, but then she left me with my dad for a week and never came back. He said he didn't know why she left. But, when I was little, I'd always ask about it. And he'd never say anything, but then, one night, when he was drunk... he told me that she was the moodiest person he's ever met. He said that she'd walk in the room, and he swears she was a different person. That she'd be mean one hour, and then nice the next. Sounds a bit like Del, if you ask me, right? And then he said to me "Charley, I ain't gonna lie to you. She hasn't called or sent a card, but I know deep down she loves you. She's just fucked up in the head, and likes to party too much. I know it's hard to hear, but it's a good thing she's gone."

Then something happens. Something that not many will see coming. It's like a whole other movie entirely.

Charley: Hey, do you guys think I could get a job around here? I'd do anything.
Silver: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of jobs around here for homeless kids.
Charley: I'm not homeless.
Silver: Well, I hate to break it to you, but that is exactly what you are. Anyway, there's no jobs around here.
Martha: Ask the Mexicans. They're the only ones that seem to get jobs.
Silver: See? She talks.

...

Martha [after Charley hits Silver over the head with a tire iron]: Get out. Get out!
Charley: This is my fucking money!!
Martha: Get the fuck out!
Charley [walking away]: I'm sorry...

...

Aunt Margy: I felt really guilty not keeping better contact with you and your dad after what happened between him and me. I'm sorry. I tried once. But...
Charley: You tried?
Aunt Margy: Yeah, of course I tried. You're my little Charley. Of course I tried.

...

Charley: Can I ask you a question?
Aunt Margy: Sure.
Charley: Would it be all right to stay here for a little bit? As long as your husband says that's OK.
Aunt Margy: I'm not letting you go anywhere. And there's no more husband. Not any more. You stay as long as you want. You and me.

...

Charley: If you wanna kick me out in, like, a week or so, you can.
Margy: I'm not gonna kick you out.
Charley: No, but if you want to, I won't feel bad about it. I'll be OK.
Margy: That's fair.
Charley: And the other thing is, if I have to go to jail...do you think that I'd get to come back here?
Margy: You're not going to jail. But if you did, yes.

...

Charley: I get nightmares. About my dad. About Pete, sometimes. Just that he's drowning, and that I can't save him. I just get really sad sometimes that I can't save him.
Margy: It's OK, Charley. I'm here now. And the nightmares are gonna get better. They might not go away completely, but they're gonna get better the more good times you have. And we're gonna have good times, Charley. Yeah. I promise.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 28796
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

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