Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate speech?

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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:52 am

Prismatic567 wrote:The above question is based on the ASSUMPTION from your perspective that God exists.
It may be in his case, but it is a question asked by agnostics and even atheists who do not presume to know.
Since it is your assumption, why should I accept your assumption?
Asking you to demonstrate the truth of your assumption is not a request or demand for you to accept another position. It is precisely what it is: a request for you to defend your assertion.
For intellectual honesty sake, the onus is on you to convert your assumption to fact first [i.e. prove God exists] else your question is merely 'assumptive' and useless.
The onus, in pretty much any intellectual culture, is for anyone making an assertion to support that assertion if it is questioned.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:59 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
The above question is based on the ASSUMPTION from your perspective that God exists.

It may be in his case, but it is a question asked by agnostics and even atheists who do not presume to know.

Since it is your assumption, why should I accept your assumption?

Asking you to demonstrate the truth of your assumption is not a request or demand for you to accept another position. It is precisely what it is: a request for you to defend your assertion.

For intellectual honesty sake, the onus is on you to convert your assumption to fact first [i.e. prove God exists] else your question is merely 'assumptive' and useless.

The onus, in pretty much any intellectual culture, is for anyone making an assertion to support that assertion if it is questioned.


Precisely the answers I wish I had given. Danke.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:24 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The above question is based on the ASSUMPTION from your perspective that God exists.
It may be in his case, but it is a question asked by agnostics and even atheists who do not presume to know.
The point here is most are not aware the assumption is implied. This is why I am highlight this hidden fact.


Since it is your assumption, why should I accept your assumption?
Asking you to demonstrate the truth of your assumption is not a request or demand for you to accept another position. It is precisely what it is: a request for you to defend your assertion.
Point is why should I defend myself based on another's assumption which is unproven and illusory.
If I assume you kill X and demand you prove you did not kill X, there is no obligation on your part to prove you did not kill X. Whatever I assumed, the onus is on me to prove without doubts you had killed X.

Many theists commit a range of evils and violence [ kill and commit genocide] in accordance to the commands and in the name of their God. Surely these theists has an onus to prove their God exists as real to support their acts? It is evil to throw the onus of proof to the non-theists so they can get away and continue with murders and other evils.

For intellectual honesty sake, the onus is on you to convert your assumption to fact first [i.e. prove God exists] else your question is merely 'assumptive' and useless.
The onus, in pretty much any intellectual culture, is for anyone making an assertion to support that assertion if it is questioned.
Agree.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:07 pm

Since it is your assumption, why should I accept your assumption?

Asking you to demonstrate the truth of your assumption is not a request or demand for you to accept another position. It is precisely what it is: a request for you to defend your assertion.

Point is why should I defend myself based on another's assumption which is unproven and illusory.
If I assume you kill X and demand you prove you did not kill X, there is no obligation on your part to prove you did not kill X. Whatever I assumed, the onus is on me to prove without doubts you had killed X.


The consciousness of other people and the existence of mind-independent objects purportedly represented by the brain in and translated into the objects and environments appearing to sensory perception are also 'unproven and illusory', given that the only existence that appears is the conscious experience of a single person. Yet most believe in the existence of other people's consciousness and mind-independent objects in the external world. Given that the only existence that shows itself is experience in the form of the subjective experience of a particular person, the existence of everything other than a person's own consciousness is a matter of faith, with any possibility or probability of their existence being merely the level of a person's belief in the existence of something outside a person's consciousness.

God is in the same boat as other people's consciousness and mind-independent, external world objects. One must have faith in his existence. For those asserting that he does not exist, one can argue that this is a prejudice based on the fact that, though God is in the same boat as other people's consciousness and mind-independent objects, the one making the assertion has a particular strong disbelief in the existence of God, and at the same time, believes in the existence of the former. Everything is ultimately about belief, disbelief, and the various strengths of belief and disbelief leading to estimations of the "likelihood" or "probability" of the existence of something that is not the consciousness of a person.

Many theists commit a range of evils and violence [ kill and commit genocide] in accordance to the commands and in the name of their God. Surely these theists has an onus to prove their God exists as real to support their acts? It is evil to throw the onus of proof to the non-theists so they can get away and continue with murders and other evils.


Some theists commit evil and violence in the name of God. Others are kind, empathetic people that wouldn't harm a fly and are better persons because of their belief. Again, proving God exists is as simple as proving other people's consciousness exist or that mind-independent external world objects exist.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:48 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:The point here is most are not aware the assumption is implied. This is why I am highlight this hidden fact.

Again, once you make an assertion, you get an onus.

Point is why should I defend myself based on another's assumption which is unproven and illusory.
Again, because you made an assertion.
If I assume you kill X and demand you prove you did not kill X, there is no obligation on your part to prove you did not kill X. Whatever I assumed, the onus is on me to prove without doubts you had killed X.
If Joe asserts there is a God, in a philosophy forum, in an academic setting, etc. someone noticing this can ask for justification and expect a response. If Jim asserts there is no God, the same onus arises there.

Many theists commit a range of evils and violence [ kill and commit genocide] in accordance to the commands and in the name of their God. Surely these theists has an onus to prove their God exists as real to support their acts? It is evil to throw the onus of proof to the non-theists so they can get away and continue with murders and other evils.
Did you not read that agnostics and even other atheists may expect justiication for your statement in a philosophical discussion setting? The evil of theists HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. We were talking about an ontological issue. With attendant epistemological issues. What evil acts has philosophical graffitte committed?

For intellectual honesty sake, the onus is on you to convert your assumption to fact first [i.e. prove God exists] else your question is merely 'assumptive' and useless.
The onus, in pretty much any intellectual culture, is for anyone making an assertion to support that assertion if it is questioned.
Agree.[/quote]
Except you clearly did not, and continued to disagree in the rest of your post above.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:03 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
The consciousness of other people and the existence of mind-independent objects purportedly represented by the brain in and translated into the objects and environments appearing to sensory perception are also 'unproven and illusory', given that the only existence that appears is the conscious experience of a single person. Yet most believe in the existence of other people's consciousness and mind-independent objects in the external world. Given that the only existence that shows itself is experience in the form of the subjective experience of a particular person, the existence of everything other than a person's own consciousness is a matter of faith, with any possibility or probability of their existence being merely the level of a person's belief in the existence of something outside a person's consciousness.

God is in the same boat as other people's consciousness and mind-independent, external world objects. One must have faith in his existence. For those asserting that he does not exist, one can argue that this is a prejudice based on the fact that, though God is in the same boat as other people's consciousness and mind-independent objects, the one making the assertion has a particular strong disbelief in the existence of God, and at the same time, believes in the existence of the former. Everything is ultimately about belief, disbelief, and the various strengths of belief and disbelief leading to estimations of the "likelihood" or "probability" of the existence of something that is not the consciousness of a person.

Many theists commit a range of evils and violence [ kill and commit genocide] in accordance to the commands and in the name of their God. Surely these theists has an onus to prove their God exists as real to support their acts? It is evil to throw the onus of proof to the non-theists so they can get away and continue with murders and other evils.


Some theists commit evil and violence in the name of God. Others are kind, empathetic people that wouldn't harm a fly and are better persons because of their belief. Again, proving God exists is as simple as proving other people's consciousness exist or that mind-independent external world objects exist.
You are conflating too many points here.

Note,

    1. Human beings are objective empirical entities like other mind-independent objects.
    2. Human beings know other humans also has similar mind like their own.
    3. God is Ultimately a non-empirical being
    4. Do non-empirical beings has mind?

1. Human beings are objective empirical entities like other mind-independent objects.
The existence of human beings is easy prove via empirical testings.

2. Human beings know other humans also has similar mind like their own.
There are epistemological issues re existence Other Minds.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/other-minds/
Despite the contentions, I believe the supporting arguments for the existence of other minds
are more convincing than the skeptics' view.

However, there are loads of research from the psychology and other philosophical perspective to support the existence and knowledge of minds/consciousness other than one's own. Note

Theory of mind is the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.—to oneself, and to others, and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind


It is not exactly easy, but it is not impossible to prove and convince the existence of other minds as above.

3. God is Ultimately a non-empirical being.
I have argued God is ultimately and has to be a non-empirical being, i.e. an ontological God. There is no way a non-empirical ontological God can be proven with empirical methods.

If anyone claims their God is an empirical being then bring proofs to show God is an empirical being like a human being or any other mind-independent objects?

4. Do non-empirical beings has mind?
There are no evidence a non-empirical objects has a 'mind' like a human mind or even those of animals.
Therefore God as non-empirical cannot have a mind like a human mind.

Again, proving God exists is as simple as proving other people's consciousness exist or that mind-independent external world objects exist.
Against the above points, there is no way you can prove God exists.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:20 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:The point here is most are not aware the assumption is implied. This is why I am highlight this hidden fact.

Again, once you make an assertion, you get an onus.

Point is why should I defend myself based on another's assumption which is unproven and illusory.
Again, because you made an assertion.

My onus is I have exposed the implication of an assumption is his assertion.

If I assume you kill X and demand you prove you did not kill X, there is no obligation on your part to prove you did not kill X. Whatever I assumed, the onus is on me to prove without doubts you had killed X.
If Joe asserts there is a God, in a philosophy forum, in an academic setting, etc. someone noticing this can ask for justification and expect a response. If Jim asserts there is no God, the same onus arises there.
Note the sequence,
    1. Joe assert there is a God.
    2. Then only can Jim asserts there is no God.

In the above case Joe's assertion takes priority and thus Joe has the onus to provide proofs for his claim. There is no priority and onus on Jim to prove his claim in this particular issue.

However I agree if Jim decide to take the initiative to kill off Joe's claim, then Jim has the onus to prove his case.
Note in my case, I have provided arguments why God is an impossibility and the idea of God emerged by some psychological defects within the human psyche.

For intellectual honesty sake, the onus is on you to convert your assumption to fact first [i.e. prove God exists] else your question is merely 'assumptive' and useless.

The onus, in pretty much any intellectual culture, is for anyone making an assertion to support that assertion if it is questioned.
Agree.

Except you clearly did not, and continued to disagree in the rest of your post above.

Note the focus should be on the primary claimant re God exists, not the secondary negating claim.

However, as an initiative and mentioned above;
Note in my case, I have provided arguments why God is an impossibility and the idea of God emerged by some psychological defects within the human psyche.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:49 pm

Greatest I Am,

Hate is good if well aimed. You mention issues where the aim is off the mark and a judge would make that clear for all the population.


What purpose, positive purpose, does hate serve? It is a very strong emotion which can get way out of hand and do a lot of destruction.

Can you give me an example of when and how *hate is good*. For instance, a scenario?
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:17 pm

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:How does one prove God does not exist?


By taking a phrase like Freedom of Speech and equating it with a total lack of responsibility and consciousness toward whomever it addresses.

In other words, anything goes even if at some point it leads to the destruction of millions of Jews or African Americans or mentally ill or incapacitated children..........et cetera. We just NEVER learn do we?

God is not only dead but never existed in the first place.

We cannot stop a volcano from erupting but we can put a muzzle on lack of consciousness and stupidity.
I am all for allowing the censorship of hate speech. Perhaps those who are not do not understand the necessity for self-discipline and clear thinking.
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It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:I am all for allowing the censorship of hate speech. Perhaps those who are not do not understand the necessity for self-discipline and clear thinking.
How would censorship lead to self-discipline? (wouldn't it undercut the possibility to some degree?) Can one not express anger and think clearly?
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:24 pm

Karpel Tunnel

I am all for allowing the censorship of hate speech. Perhaps those who are not do not understand the necessity for self-discipline and clear thinking.

How would censorship lead to self-discipline?


This may not be a good example but think of the discipline of a *time out* that the parent gives the child for wrong and crazy behavior as a censorship. Do you not think that after enough of them, the child would come to some consciousness and self-discipline? Of course, it might also depend on the individual child.

Hate speech can be very contagious and before anyone knows what is happening, there is the mob, there is the unthinking Herd, there is the fanatic, there is the person just waiting for the excuse to kill someone or beat someone up. Hate speech can become so volatile. You hear some person on a tirade shouting ugly racist remarks about Jews and other anti-Semetics listening and become enraged. Suddenly someone spots a Jewish person and that person becomes physically attacked to an extreme degrees. It could be an adult or a child.

You can also think of the censorship of it as the water used to put a fire out before it causes damage.


(wouldn't it undercut the possibility to some degree?)


Would that not depend on the individual? Is a mob or a racist capable of self-discipline and clear thinking?


Can one not express anger and think clearly?


Sure. Someone who is stable, pretty well balanced, is aware of their feelings and can be in control of them and who knows what is at stake and realizes that there can be a far better way to achieve something.

But seriously, can an actual *hate speech* express anger and clear thinking without becoming volatile? What could go wrong there, given the right (or wrong) moment? This is not a love speech, it is a hate speech. Humans are imperfect, faulty, our emotions more than rise to the moment also in the wrong way.
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It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:35 pm

I think we need a definition of hate speech.

I don't think a category based on an emotion is a good idea.

I don't think the current climate regarding speech is a good one. All sorts of things are being called hate speech when they may or may not have some anger behind thevm but do not seem to me racist, anti-semitic, etc.

I don't see censorship working very well.

My kid says something racist, we'd have a talk. I don't want to train him not to share his thoughts with me.

I do realize that asking for a definition is an easy request. I will try not to just jump on it. But see if you can define it and I will present then examples of what get called hate speech. Perhaps we will have similar objections to how it is currently used.

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
I think these quotes tend towards limiting censorship.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:40 am

I think we need a definition of hate speech.

I agree.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:57 am

But seriously, can an actual *hate speech* express anger and clear thinking without becoming volatile? What could go wrong there, given the right (or wrong) moment? This is not a love speech, it is a hate speech. Humans are imperfect, faulty, our emotions more than rise to the moment also in the wrong way.


We present love and hate as opposites, often, but it seems to me they are often connected. Something I love is threatened, i may feel hate. Is it OK for Churchill to have hate in his speech against Hitler? MLK certainly focused on love, but in this last speech, the one before he was killed, you can hear the rage at what he was encountering. Of course hate can go wrong, but a loving speech can go wrong also. Telling us to love something that is damaging. A speech that glosses over. A speech where an ugly, hateful person presents themselves as loving to set up their opponent.

I think there is something wrong headed about focusing on emotion. And by the way, I think everyone should be nervous about that focus. Because once hou outlaw hatred in reaction, you make it easier for tyranny.

Because once those in power can damn y ou for reacting angrily to what they are doing, they are freer to do what they want.

The very term itself gives me chills.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel

I think we need a definition of hate speech.


I am aware that there may be at least a few. I am using the phrase *hate speech* to denote INTENTION, where the intent is to incite people to anger, rage, hatred AND to the point where the outcome and consequences of that speech could only result in the inevitable - destruction, murder, et cetera. Hitler and the Nazi's' false propaganda, white supremacist's speech which could incite people to murder African Americans and hang slaves - back then, hate speech which turns every good Muslim into a terrorist. I think that you get the idea.


I don't think a category based on an emotion is a good idea.


Why not? Hatred is built on emotion, is it not? Even if you would call hatred a mood, it is built on emotion and those kind of speeches are so capable of evolving into quite a conflagration.

I don't think the current climate regarding speech is a good one. All sorts of things are being called hate speech when they may or may not have some anger behind thevm but do not seem to me racist, anti-semitic, etc.


I suppose that I can agree with you in part here BUT I think that it has to be quite obvious when a speech is anti-semetic or racist or against gay people, ad continuum.

I don't see censorship working very well.


I realize that like everything there are many gray areas.

Bring yourself back to the Nazi regime. Perhaps there could not have been a law on censorship then, but what if there had been and it had succeeded. Would all of those people murdered because of the Holocaust ~men, women and CHILDREN ~~would they have survived the war, barring the bombs, if they had not had all of the Lies, Hatred, out-of-control emotions thrown at them? Would children have been shot in the head by Naziis if censorship was the thing back then?!

My kid says something racist, we'd have a talk. I don't want to train him not to share his thoughts with me.


That is a good thing. It is too easy a thing, I think, to be biased/prejudiced, to become infected by that so-called virus. It is all around us so just a simple thing like an accidental bump by someone, someone who we feel *is not like us* might offset us. Adults are not even sometimes consciously aware of when they are pushing the envelope so of course children would not be.

I do realize that asking for a definition is an easy request.


It is an easy request but not necessarily easy to answer.


I will try not to just jump on it. But see if you can define it and I will present then examples of what get called hate speech. Perhaps we will have similar objections to how it is currently used.


I look forward to it. Let us not forget that *hatred* can be insidiously subtle.


It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


I think these quotes tend towards limiting censorship.


That was my signature long before I entered this thread. It was kind of a reminder to me to try to keep an open mind and that the questions are at least as important than the answers, sometimes more so? How much it is working is *debatable*. :mrgreen:

As to your response, at first glance, that may be possible. At second glance, I will have to think more on it.
I might suggest that the quote tells us to try to see both sides of that coin very carefully, both sides, just as carefully.
Censorship would have to be well thought out logically, yes, and with compassion - to do no harm or what does the least harm.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:01 pm

Hmmm...then again, at the end of the day, there would be that so-called HATE SPEECH (unless you could think of another word or phrase for it) which has as its main INTENTION the fight toward raising human consciousness against people like the white supremacists and neo-naziis, the terrorists, the despots, among others, in a constructive, not a destructive way, where lives are physically destroyed.

But then again, even that would not be so easy, right, since there are always those fanatics looking and waiting for an excuse to destroy. There are really no easy answers where human beings are involved. lol
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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Re: Is hate good? Should we allow the censorship of hate spe

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:26 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:I am aware that there may be at least a few. I am using the phrase *hate speech* to denote INTENTION, where the intent is to incite people to anger, rage, hatred AND to the point where the outcome and consequences of that speech could only result in the inevitable - destruction, murder, et cetera. Hitler and the Nazi's' false propaganda, white supremacist's speech which could incite people to murder African Americans and hang slaves - back then, hate speech which turns every good Muslim into a terrorist. I think that you get the idea.
In practical terms it is very hard to censor based on intention. If we talk about the consequences, then a lot of politicians speechs can and do lead to destruction, but they need not contain much in the way of hate or anger, however they set down reality or 'reality' in such a way that it leads to death and destruction. I don't know what to look for with your definition.


I don't think a category based on an emotion is a good idea.


Why not? Hatred is built on emotion, is it not? Even if you would call hatred a mood, it is built on emotion and those kind of speeches are so capable of evolving into quite a conflagration.
I don't mean that one cannot have a category based on emotions, one can. What I meant was it's a bad idea in the context of human communication. 1) we have to determine intent, which is hard to do 2) strong anger (hatred) is a natural reaction to things like oppression. I wouldn't want to say people cannot scream out their anger at a protest, for example, or in an angry letter signed by many about a policy. 3) You can create documents that are calm and reasoned or 'reasoned' that are based on hate and have horrible intentions, but which contain nothing which demonstrates hate or horrible intentions. And I am not sure that forcing everyone to be Machievellian about this helps.

I suppose that I can agree with you in part here BUT I think that it has to be quite obvious when a speech is anti-semetic or racist or against gay people, ad continuum.
So, it is hate only at minority groups? How do we determine if an attack on Israel's policies is anti-semitic?

I don't see censorship working very well.


I realize that like everything there are many gray areas.

Bring yourself back to the Nazi regime. Perhaps there could not have been a law on censorship then, but what if there had been and it had succeeded. Would all of those people murdered because of the Holocaust ~men, women and CHILDREN ~~would they have survived the war, barring the bombs, if they had not had all of the Lies, Hatred, out-of-control emotions thrown at them? Would children have been shot in the head by Naziis if censorship was the thing back then?!
There was censorship, but it was run by the Nazis. The upside of the Nazis being as up front as they were - though they were also really quite cagey about what they intended and meant about a lot of things - is that it was clearer who they were and what they might do. The rest of the world did not react in time, but some people were convinced, like Churchill, I am sure in part based on what the Nazis were saying. It might have been harder to get people to prepare to fight the Nazis had they been ever cagier about who they were.

My kid says something racist, we'd have a talk. I don't want to train him not to share his thoughts with me.


That is a good thing. It is too easy a thing, I think, to be biased/prejudiced, to become infected by that so-called virus. It is all around us so just a simple thing like an accidental bump by someone, someone who we feel *is not like us* might offset us. Adults are not even sometimes consciously aware of when they are pushing the envelope so of course children would not be.

Sure, but my point was: that is not putting my child in time out. Time out might get my kid to be silent around me in the future, but it isn't getting at the issues.

I will try not to just jump on it. But see if you can define it and I will present then examples of what get called hate speech. Perhaps we will have similar objections to how it is currently used.


I look forward to it. Let us not forget that *hatred* can be insidiously subtle.
Hatred can be justified.
Karpel Tunnel
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