Language and Monotheism

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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby Bob » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:45 pm

felix dakat wrote:From what I understand monotheism was a later development. Cuneiform developed in Sumer and the alphabet came from Greece. Both of these were polytheistic cultures. Am I missing something?

Hi Felix,

that is also the way I understand it, and if you take into account that the first writing was essentially used for lists and developed from there. It is a long way from there to philosophy as we know it.

Of course, the moment you do have "leisure" enough to sit down and write, our complete perspective is a different one than when we had no time to do that. Judging by what philologists have taught me about the Hebrew language, there were people who had a lot of time, which is reflected in the depth of that language. Martin Luther said that Hebrew was like an ocean, Greek like a river and Latin like a puddle. This tells me that there was a process going on when Hebrew and other older languages were developing that we don't understand enough (or at least I don't), and which would help us understand the ancients a lot better if we did.

In what way the development of language helped monotheism I'm not sure, but mysticism found a great source in its poetry and songs, which as I understand it, is a further development of language. The rhythm of language probably gave us a lot more than we are aware of, add the development of musical instruments and we have a development that explains much of what can be called "soul" in the modern sense of the term - which is where people like you come in ;-)
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby MagsJ » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:32 pm

Xunzian wrote:It's become on-trend because of Westworld, but I've had a soft-spot for the bicameral mind- - -

:text-goodpost:
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby felix dakat » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:05 pm

Bob wrote:
felix dakat wrote:From what I understand monotheism was a later development. Cuneiform developed in Sumer and the alphabet came from Greece. Both of these were polytheistic cultures. Am I missing something?

Hi Felix,

that is also the way I understand it, and if you take into account that the first writing was essentially used for lists and developed from there. It is a long way from there to philosophy as we know it.

Of course, the moment you do have "leisure" enough to sit down and write, our complete perspective is a different one than when we had no time to do that. Judging by what philologists have taught me about the Hebrew language, there were people who had a lot of time, which is reflected in the depth of that language. Martin Luther said that Hebrew was like an ocean, Greek like a river and Latin like a puddle. This tells me that there was a process going on when Hebrew and other older languages were developing that we don't understand enough (or at least I don't), and which would help us understand the ancients a lot better if we did.

In what way the development of language helped monotheism I'm not sure, but mysticism found a great source in its poetry and songs, which as I understand it, is a further development of language. The rhythm of language probably gave us a lot more than we are aware of, add the development of musical instruments and we have a development that explains much of what can be called "soul" in the modern sense of the term - which is where people like you come in ;-)
The biblical narrative of God etching his laws on tablets of stone to be given to the people by Moses is an apt metaphor for the importance of the written word of monotheism. Yahweh is the lawgiver and for the law to be accurately remembered from generation to generation it must be etched into stone and later written on papyrus. God could morph into god in oral tradition. Not so the Lawgiver of the written word. His character was bound to the history of Israel by the written word. The Covenant was a written contract. So I see monotheism being dependent on written language rather than vice versa. The biblical conception of God couldn't have happened without written language.

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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby Pandora » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:21 am

I’m still leaning towards mathematics as being a better candidate for monotheism (actually, more specifically, monistic ideas); but is mathematics even a “language”?
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby MagsJ » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:25 am

:shock:
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby Pandora » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:42 am

Pandora wrote:; but is mathematics even a “language”?
I mean, why not?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/modulouniv ... nd-et/amp/
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby MagsJ » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:00 am

Pandora wrote:
Pandora wrote:; but is mathematics even a “language”?
I mean, why not?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/modulouniv ... nd-et/amp/

My shock is in that you are questioning the roots of a tactical religious innovation..
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby Pandora » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:47 am

Not questioning as much as just exploring, especially the background context and events that may have led to such developments. I do believe that there were cultural exchanges happening, even before pre-Socratics, given the contacts and trade between ancient civilizations. (Miletus, home of the first Greek philosopher, for example, was actually a major trading port and was known for its trade with Crete, which in turn, traded with Egypt, so cultural exchange of ideas was very likely). Another interesting fact is that ancient Greeks have also known of eastern ascetics, whom they called gymnosphists, and I suspect that Western ascetism may have been influenced by eastern practices. But this circumstantial approach involves a lot of historical research and getting into the minds of ancient peoples is not that easy.
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby MagsJ » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:43 pm

Isn't ancient history a fantastic thing.. just as we evolved as a species, so did our cultural history.

Graham Hancock on the Pyramids
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby zinnat » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:06 am

Pandora wrote:I was just thinking, could it be possible that the Muslims and Jews are worshipping essentially the same god?


It is not only possible but that is precisely what actually happens. Having said that, neither o those will ever accept that. Not only that, you can also add Judaism to that list which predates both.

Christian God is second version of Jewish God while Muslim God is the final version, of course, according to them.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Language and Monotheism

Postby Bob » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:37 am

Pandora wrote:Not questioning as much as just exploring, especially the background context and events that may have led to such developments. I do believe that there were cultural exchanges happening, even before pre-Socratics, given the contacts and trade between ancient civilizations. (Miletus, home of the first Greek philosopher, for example, was actually a major trading port and was known for its trade with Crete, which in turn, traded with Egypt, so cultural exchange of ideas was very likely). Another interesting fact is that ancient Greeks have also known of eastern ascetics, whom they called gymnosphists, and I suspect that Western ascetism may have been influenced by eastern practices. But this circumstantial approach involves a lot of historical research and getting into the minds of ancient peoples is not that easy.

I think you may be right that the discovery of prime numbers and other mathematical "Laws" of nature could well be the reason for assuming the existence of an intelligence behind the creation of the world. At this level, the tendency towards monotheism rather than polytheism is logical and may well have occurred much earlier than we have presumed. It has always been a fight for people who investigated the facts of our existence to find acceptance amongst those who ruled by brute force or populism. We see it even today ...
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
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